Seat Defender

So I saw this on CNN earlier:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/travel...knee-defender/

A woman threw water in a guy's face because he used a device to prevent her from reclining her chair. This caused them to divert the flight.

As a former road warrior and regular flyer, I never reclined. I didn't feel like I was entitled to the other person's space, and didn't want them doing it to me. We were all in the same tin can. When it did happen, I dealt with it, but I immediately disliked the person in front of me.

I think the airline needs to have a clear policy on the use of these devices. If they don't they can't tell people not to bring them.

It wouldn't be a problem if there was a ton of room, but on planes, it's crowded and tight.

What are your thoughts?

I've only been on an airplane once, but I never reclined my airline seat. I didn't even know if you could!

I guess it would be annoying if someone in front of me did it to me, but I like to think I'd be sympathetic. Maybe they had back pain, who knows. It's not quite at 'crying baby' levels of annoyance anyway.

Am I the only one who asks whoever is behind me if it's OK for me to recline my seat? Are americans really as big assholes as that comment section makes it look like? I can assure you that if someone crushed my knees and refused to stop doing so, I would make a scene. A big one.

Well, it looks like this situation was handled properly.

The lady should have asked first and the guy shouldn't have been a dickwad and used the device.

I always fly Southwest, so I doubt their seats even recline. Even if they do, I wouldn't do it. I don't want my head in someone's lap like that. lol

Car wise, if there's someone behind me on a road trip, I won't lay my seat back -all- the way. Just enough to give me a slight incline to sleep for awhile.

I seriously doubt anyone's knees would be crushed. Using a device to prevent someone from reclining in front of you is super rude. Either politely let someone in front of you know that your body can't handle it if they recline their seat, or book a seat that doesn't have a chair in front of you. Simple as that. I would be super pissed if someone installed one of those things behind me without telling me when I'm expecting to be able to recline.

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The argument occurred in the Economy Plus section, which provides United passengers up to 5 inches of extra legroom compared with standard coach seats.

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I'm pretty sure the guy was just being an asshole.

I don't get it when people are assholes to each other like this instead of just communicating. If I want to recline my seat on a plane and there's a person behind me, I ask them "Do you mind if I recline my seat?" If someone in front of me reclines without asking, having quite long legs and almost always getting squashed by this, I ask them "Sorry, would you mind putting your seat back upright? I don't have much space for my legs". Doing this, nobody has ever declined me. Everybody's happy.

I've heard one or two stories about people being rudely declined in situations like that, and in those cases they've asked their flight attendants to switch seats because of this (and in one case I remember, got bumped up to first class).

When I fly on Delta I intentionally buy a seat that is against the wall of a plane (which incidentally no one ever seems to want). I can recline as far as it will let me. Problem solved. Also yeah, what Rantz said. You can just ask how far you can recline it back and likewise the person can speak up and politely ask the person to put it back. People are jerks.

I don't fly. But I live in a really "armpit" area of the country where customers and drivers are super self-entitled and expectant and rude, so I can imagine how things are on flights in this area, even though I never fly. If I could stop someone from zipping recklessly in and out of traffic, and/or cutting people off needlessly, or trying to scam retailers on bogus returns and whatnot, I totally would. I imagine if I were a frequent flyer I would probably feel the same way. If they won't ask if it's okay to steal my space to recline, I think they shouldn't be able to recline. Maybe put those knee defender things in so if they don't ask, they don't get to. And if they do ask, I could discreetly remove them so they can recline. As long as my arms have enough space I think I'd live. But if people are being ridiculously self-entitled about it, I'd probably be pretty irked. I wish trains weren't a dying thing in America. I'd much rather spend a day relaxing on a train with plenty of room and plenty of time to write and game and enjoy the view over a 3 hour flight with 5 hours of hassle and loads of discomfort

Vyk, I think all of NWO is like that...Toledo isn't much better -_-

The one time I flew on a plane i reclined my seat a little too far and was asked to put it back up. I did and didn't complain. It's not hard to be polite, people!

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Originally Posted by Shorty

I seriously doubt anyone's knees would be crushed. Using a device to prevent someone from reclining in front of you is super rude. Either politely let someone in front of you know that your body can't handle it if they recline their seat, or book a seat that doesn't have a chair in front of you. Simple as that. I would be super pissed if someone installed one of those things behind me without telling me when I'm expecting to be able to recline.

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The argument occurred in the Economy Plus section, which provides United passengers up to 5 inches of extra legroom compared with standard coach seats.

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I'm pretty sure the guy was just being an asshole.

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Well not crushed to bits, but when you're as tall as rantz and I am, it is often uncomfortably tight even when seats aren't reclined. Depending on the type of seat, it can be really painful if someone reclines it.

Anyone who does it to me gets kneed in the back a whole lot. Not in some intentional badass protest but because I can't help it, it is actually impossible to move or stretch your legs without doing so. I will admit I do take a little bit of joy out of them putting the seat back upright after taking a knee :greenie: I have discovered the joys of the exit row now though.

After a lifetime of living in London and dealing with buses which have ever decreasing leg room (though I hear the new routemaster gives more) and overcrowded underground cars. I'm pretty much immune to how little leg space I have and make do. That being said, much like Paul, the person's back is likely to eat some knees and believe me I would not be apologising to them, don't like it? Sit up straight.

This reminds me of all the arguments you get in London about the Tube and how awful it gets with overcrowding and how people don't like others touching them. People, if you're so smurfing desperate to shave 2 minutes from your journey, that you'll cram 80 standees or more in to a space meant for 60 and then have the 60 or so seated people in there. You can't complain if someone ends up caught in an awkward position against you. Believe me I've had a girl with her hand holding her handbag trapped in my groin and whilst it wasn't exactly comfortable for me it was more embarrassing for her.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I would make a scene. A big one.

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How very...American of you

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Originally Posted by Rantz

I don't get it when people are assholes to each other like this instead of just communicating. If I want to recline my seat on a plane and there's a person behind me, I ask them "Do you mind if I recline my seat?" If someone in front of me reclines without asking, having quite long legs and almost always getting squashed by this, I ask them "Sorry, would you mind putting your seat back upright? I don't have much space for my legs". Doing this, nobody has ever declined me. Everybody's happy.

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Agreed. This is the solution to pretty much any awkward situation. I can't remember a time when this nice, open approach has not worked. People just need to stop being assholes.

I don't really understand reclining chairs so I never use them. They just seem a bit pointless. "Ooh, my chair is at a rather uncomfortable 90 degree angle. I better adjust it so that it's at an 85 degree angle. Ahhhh, that's better! It's practically a bed now!"

Not really.

Also, I generally don't have problems with knee space as I fly Emirates like a boss :cool:

Ø

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Originally Posted by Old Manus

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I would make a scene. A big one.

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How very...American of you

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If someone refuses to stop inflicting pain on you, would you just pretend everything is perfectly fine?

I thought I made it clear that I would only do that if diplomacy failed.

I flew several times back and forth between France and the US (AF, KLM, AA, Delta), and despite people reclining in front of me, it never hurt my knees, ever, and I'm not small by any measure. Reclining the seat hardly affects the leg room because the frame of the seat is fixed, otherwise reclining would make the tray on the back to recline with it, which it doesn't.
At any rate, if your knees are at tray level, you should pick exit row seats in the first place. ;) Or alley seats and putting your legs in the alley like I've done more than once.

What did happen once and really pissed me off is that once the guy in front of me reclined his seat while we were eating, which bumped my glass and spilled apple juice on my tray and myself. If he had asked before I would have warned him or I could have moved my glass, but noooo. Personally, I only recline when people start sleeping, in particular if the person behind me reclined his/her seat.

Height is a big factor, but another thing is the leg to torso ratio. That's why some people who are taller can state that it's not as much of a space issue for them.

I'm 5'11" and a bit, so I'm not nearly as tall as some of the giant Scandanavians on the forum. Still, I have a good bit of leg length. On a plane my knees are typically very close to the seat even when it's upright.

I view it similarly to when I'm in a car. I never just run the seat back if someone is behind me. I check first to see what their seating situation is, and we find a happy medium.

Honestly, it's never even occurred to me to lean my seat back on a plane because space is so tight, but maybe for a person who hasn't experienced the issue (because they're shorter) they just haven't thought about it.

Seems to me that the best rule is to simply ask/check about the seating situation of the person behind you. We're all traveling together so simply saying "I'm going to recline because I can, and it's not my fault if I hurt your knees." or "'I'm going to assume that you're about to bash my knees, and stop that." are both too presumptuous.

I do think it's rather telling of how personal space is shrinking on planes that someone felt the need to create this device, and that it is selling.

As tight as they've made space on planes today, the reclining option does just seem like a fight waiting to happen.

I'm very non confrontational so I never recline my seat or say anything when anyone else does. If I did, though, it would be nice if someone communicated with em instead of just being a jerk about it

I have long legs. When people in front of me try to recline the seat doesn't bang against my knees because they're already against the chair. My legs themselves prevent people from reclining. There's not much I can do about it. People sitting in front of me have never said anything but a few have given out a huffy sigh. No one has ever turned around to ask, though.

I don't have it now because I'm on my phone, but I read today that this guy was using this device because he was using his laptop and didn't want the screen to be at a funky angle. That is plain and blatant assholery.

I don't know if it's blatant. I watched a dude ask the person in front of him not to recline because he had his laptop out. The person didn't listen despite the people around him telling him to quit, and eventually he ended up cracking the dude's screen. It was a bit of an incident.

I think people are afraid to talk to strangers on an airplane, especially those they aren't sitting next to. I think the reclining function of an airline seat was something nice back when they weren't messing with pitch and space between seats as bad as they do now.

Maybe they should just pull the reclining feature out of seats.

I'm mindful of my passengers. If I notice I have someone behind me, I recline just a tad or not at all. If there's nobody, I'll be more comfortable reclining. If someone was in front of me, I should expect them to ask or behave in the same manner as myself. If they don't, I'll just deal with it because I don't want to make a big scene out of an inconvenience to myself and to the person in front. :S

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Originally Posted by Nate

I don't know if it's blatant. I watched a dude ask the person in front of him not to recline because he had his laptop out. The person didn't listen despite the people around him telling him to quit, and eventually he ended up cracking the dude's screen. It was a bit of an incident.

I think people are afraid to talk to strangers on an airplane, especially those they aren't sitting next to. I think the reclining function of an airline seat was something nice back when they weren't messing with pitch and space between seats as bad as they do now.

Maybe they should just pull the reclining feature out of seats.

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If a person does not ask the person in front of them if they can refrain from reclining, if they do not ask the person in front of them or the flight personnel if they can install a recline-locking device, if they do not remove the device after flight personnel has asked them to, and if they do this all with five extra inches of leg room and so that they can use their laptop - which means it was not a physical discomfort situation, it was an "I want to do what I want" situation - then yep, it's blatant assholery.

Many flights last for hours at a time, and I don't care to sit at a ninety degree angle between hours of flying and terrible seats at the airport during layovers. I always recline my seat for comfort, and I always see other people doing it. I have never been asked if it's okay with me, nor have I ever asked anyone else - I didn't even know this was a thing. I would hope that if someone behind me had a problem, they would let me know. Otherwise, I'll choose to exercise the comforts the airline has provided by allowing my chair to recline.

Maybe a better option would be to include fewer seats in an aircraft carrier so that people have a bit more personal space instead of disallowing everyone to comfortably travel. :p

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Originally Posted by Shorty

Maybe a better option would be to include fewer seats in an aircraft carrier so that people have a bit more personal space instead of disallowing everyone to comfortably travel. :p

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Profit margins say airlines won't go that direction, and decreasing space says the incidents will simply continue to occur. Perhaps even at an increasing rate. We all know it's not just space, there's a reduction in everythying. There's less amenities, less anonymity, and less service. I remember when I traveled to Europe as a kid. Since I was a little kid I got a free model of the plane I was flying on, extra special attention from the flight attendant, visiting the captain and co-pilot, and they even gave my teddy bear (I am all that is man) his own seat beside me. Now? No more drinks and snacks on flights that used to have them. Longer flights also see less drink and food service. You sometimes pay for baggage handling, personal space, towels, pillows, bottled water, and so forth.

The atmosphere of air travel is changing, and whether passengers like it or not, it's going to require some communication and cooperation to try and help every one travel as comfortably as possible.

I suppose if enough travelers boycott air travel perhaps airlines would listen and give back some space and other things. As dependent as we are on air planes, I seriously doubt that will happen.

Wow, I'm of a wholly different opinion. You obviously feel the person wanting his space was being an entitled douche. And I feel people who expect everyone to just live with them leaning back into their space are being douches. I think the airline was remiss in even giving the option to begin with if it crowds into other people's space. Not everyone wants to speak up about their claustrophobia and/or agoraphobia or whatever it might be considered when someone in front of them crowds into their space. I would feel guilty and paranoid even attempting to recline without making sure it was okay with the person behind me. I wouldn't dream of just doing it because I'm entitled. Like I said before, that reminds me so much of entitled ghetto Walmart shoppers, and horribly entitled road hogs. I've had to drive on 7-hour long trips. Can't take a nap at the wheel. I'd have no problem sitting up in a plane either. In fact, I'd imagine most plane seats are a bit more comfortable than most car seats. I'd just bring a book or something. Or I'd ask the person behind me if they're okay with me laying back and taking a nap, instead of just doing it

As far as feeling like airplanes shouldn't have reclining seats in the first place, I'm of the mindset that cars should also not have horns, because nobody uses them for their intended purpose anymore. They just use them to be douche-bags to everyone else on the road. Or even in homes, in lieu of like getting out of the car and knocking on someone's door

Long story short, if I had a social condition where I didn't like being crowded, having someone sitting on either side of me would be enough. To be expected to be okay with the person in front of me crowding me as well seems a bit excessive and ridiculous. And I for one am glad this invention exists. Even though I never fly. I probably wouldn't use one if I did. But good god I am absolutely positive I would want to

The whole airplane seat thing is just an example of where when you give people a little discretion, they make the worst of it. The same thing with car horns.

I used to travel for a living, and spent at least 3 days a week with some sort of flight in it for a few years. People on planes are just rude, which is exacerbated by the tight conditions. I flew in the 80's and it was never like that (even though I was a kid). I believe that if you're flying coach on a discount fare, don't expect 1st class treatment. And at the same time, do what you can to not be a jerk to the people around you.

I think the flight attendant could have just asked the person not to recline. I don't see why that's a problem. The airline owns the space, not the passenger. And let's face it, customer comfort is not a concern of the airline when you're flying coach. If you want comfort, pony up some money.

I'm American and I'm entitled to that space behind me. Manifest Destiny, bitches.

Yeah I pay for the space in front of me, I want all of that available!

What they should do is basically have a little wall behind each seat, and the seats can't recline past that wall. Not to mention, there is reclining technology where seats come down and fold out, rather than leaning straight back. It's kinda ridiculous that there's even a problem with them stealing space. They don't/shouldn't need to

Also, Del made me lol because I feel that's how most people feel. Which is sad

In all seriousness I always recline my seat on a plane and would pretty annoyed if a tall person prevented me from doing so. I also assume the person in front of me will also recline. If they don't I just figure the seat is broken rather than them being polite or considerate or any of that nonsense. Sitting upright on a plane is uncomfortable, especially on longer flights. Recline away, my airline brother.

If you are too tall to handle a reclined seat at then just pay the extra $20 for a front row seat or whatever it is. It's not my fault you're tall so I'm not going to give up my comfort to accommodate you. Similarly with fat people who should buy two seats.

If anyone tried to seat defender me I'd slap the thing out of their hands. Except for Rantzien. I really like that guy.

Man.

I wish I could INCLINE those seats. They are very much NOT at a 90 degree angle, and my spine does NOT appreciate it. Starting at an 85% angle might sound nice, but I need that trout to be vertical.


For what it's worth though, this ENTIRE DEBACLE could have been avoided with a simple conversation. And no, not all Americans are like that. Only the ones that make the news. :(