KH vs. Tales of... : The Rise of Action-RPGs,

So my friend and I are discussing the topics we'll be doing for our RPG panel this year for a con and we got into a bit of a heated discussion about which game really set off the rise of Action-RPGs in the West. He feels it was Kingdom Hearts, I felt it was Tales of Symphonia. We're both well aware of Star Ocean and previous Tales games but we both pin-pointed the rise of the Action-RPG was a PS2/GC era thing that exploded after a slow but gradual rise in popularity thanks to game like Secret f Mana and Star Ocean so my question is where do you feel the sub-genre grew in popularity in the West?

I know way more people who cut their teeth on Tales games. And even those that I know who enjoyed one or two Kingdom Hearts games either prefer the Tales games or like more of the Tales games than the KH games. So it would seem the Tales games had a bigger impact on them than KH. In fact I believe all of these people have played and enjoyed the portable Tales games, and however they either haven't had interest in, or did not enjoy the portable KH games. I was personally completely turned off by the first KH game. At that time I had never finished a Tales game, but did enjoy the ones I played way more. Action RPGs didn't kick off for me in that era anyway. But for the people who did begin to enjoy them around that time, I would personally cite Tales helping with that

Can't omit that Demon's Souls gave the sub genre cross-over appeal in the modern era that might eclipse those games. I'm sure there's kids playing Dark Souls II right now on Xbox Live who don't know what Kingdom Hearts is.

Having worked in the sales portion of the industry, only your more hardcore RPG fans really knew or cared about any Tales games. Everyone knew about KH at least. KH has a wider audience impact.

From what I've seen. I'd say that ToS led to the rise of action RPGs.

KH fans are usually fans of FF and Disney.

Tales fans are big on Star Ocean, Mana, Ys etc.

Maybe, KH could have done the same, but the games devolve into bad fan-fiction after the first game, with each installment getting progressively worse. I think that turned away most action RPG fans.

I'd say it was KH. KH is more mainstream with the Disney tie-in. I've never even played a Tales game and I'm much more into RPGs than the average gamer. Unless you are specifically talking about Western RPG fans being more into action-RPGs. If you are talking about the general audience, then it's KH.

Though for me it was Secret of Mana. :)

Also, though it's not an RPG, I wouldn't discount the influence of Symphony of the Night on this genre. It has many RPG elements like equipment, spells, and levels, and it introduced a lot of people to those elements.

I thought action RPGs were isometric dungeon-crawler lootfests like Diablo and Torchlight? We need better defining terms for game genres (and sub-genres).

You should get to work on that!

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Originally Posted by Pike

I thought action RPGs were isometric dungeon-crawler lootfests like Diablo and Torchlight? We need better defining terms for game genres (and sub-genres).

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Yeah this.

I wouldn't really call KH and Tales, Action RPGs. They're still pretty much JRPGs at their core, they just switched turn-based mechanics in favour of more real time (especially in the case of KH) style combat. Outside of the combat they are both still pretty cut and dry JRPGs in terms of story, scope and character progression systems. KH is probably more westernised than the Tales series, but I think that's more down to the platforming side of it than anything else.

Tales was a big thing in Japan for sometme before KH was even a twinkle in the eyes of Squaresoft and Disney.

Perhaps Action-JRPG would be a more fitting genre title?

Actually Diablo is considered a Hack-n-Slash RPG since its basically about murdering things and getting loot as opposed to more typical RPG elements and Torchlight from what I've read is considered an action game though the sequel seems to be classified as an action-rpg.

Historically speaking, the genre has its roots in Japanese development with games like Dragon Slayer, Hydlide, Ys and controversially The Legend of Zelda whereas the games your talking about came ten years after all of this, so technically Diablo and Torchlight are the sub-genre not Tales and KH which are evolutions of the original games.

I should have made it clear in the opening post that since this is a panel at an anime convention, the subject matter is more heavily focused on Japanese development than general but I do feel for the topic it is nice to be more inclusive so carry on. ;)

Mass Effect is my favourite action RPG.

But that's off topic so i'll say I don't really know where the popularity grew, but I don't really think KH and Tales games cater to the same fans. In terms of gameplay, I think they are very different, even if they fall within the same subgenre.

That is kind of my argument, I definetly feel that Tales has a more hardcore Action-RPG fan following that KH which I feel may have a larger fanbase but not one that loves Action-RPGs.

For the most part I feel the genre grew slowly, I just find it surprising its probably the most numerous genre on consoles at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Actually Diablo is considered a Hack-n-Slash RPG since its basically about murdering things and getting loot as opposed to more typical RPG elements and Torchlight from what I've read is considered an action game though the sequel seems to be classified as an action-rpg.

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This is monumentally incorrect on so many levels. Although KH might be classed as an Action RPG it's a really loose use of the term, because it's barely an RPG at all. Murdering things and getting loot is basically the definition of the ARPG genre, which is why it is applied to games like Diablo, Torchlight, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Dungeon Siege, Din's Curse, Drox Operative, and Path of Exile. It's true the term Hack'n'Slash is also used to describe such games but it tends to be a descriptor that differentiates the games from others which might fall into the Action RPG label rather than a genre description in and of itself.

There's also no way Torchlight could not be an ARPG while 2 is one, because they are mechanically almost identical.

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Historically speaking, the genre has its roots in Japanese development with games like Dragon Slayer, Hydlide, Ys and controversially The Legend of Zelda whereas the games your talking about came ten years after all of this, so technically Diablo and Torchlight are the sub-genre not Tales and KH which are evolutions of the original games.

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This is technically true, but at this point the term ARPG has long supplanted the Japanese origins. It's been a long, long time since I've seen ARPG used to refer to anything except Kill Baddies -> Get Loot -> Kill Stronger Baddies -> Get Better Loot -> 20GOTO10. The other games which get the designation are generally things that more closely straddle the line with other genres like Skyrim and Borderlands which, again, is where Hack'n'Slash comes in as a differentiating label. I mean it is a fairly nebulous genre because there's a wide swathe of games which incorporate varying degrees of RPG and action elements but the modern usage is definitely the one Pike and Auly said.

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Originally Posted by Mister Adequate

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Historically speaking, the genre has its roots in Japanese development with games like Dragon Slayer, Hydlide, Ys and controversially The Legend of Zelda whereas the games your talking about came ten years after all of this, so technically Diablo and Torchlight are the sub-genre not Tales and KH which are evolutions of the original games.

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This is technically true, but at this point the term ARPG has long supplanted the Japanese origins. It's been a long, long time since I've seen ARPG used to refer to anything except Kill Baddies -> Get Loot -> Kill Stronger Baddies -> Get Better Loot -> 20GOTO10. The other games which get the designation are generally things that more closely straddle the line with other genres like Skyrim and Borderlands which, again, is where Hack'n'Slash comes in as a differentiating label. I mean it is a fairly nebulous genre because there's a wide swathe of games which incorporate varying degrees of RPG and action elements but the modern usage is definitely the one Pike and Auly said.

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You act like Japan stopped making ARPGs after Diablo came out. It is also amusing because so many JRPGs nowadays are following the Tales franchise which is an Action-RPG genre so its is actually one of the more numerous Japanese RPGs franchises to show up on consoles nowadays besides maybe SRPGs. :p

While I am not saying the games mentioned are not ARPGs, I disagree that they supplanted the term since all of them are PC games while the titles I mentioned are all console titles, in that way neither of us would be correct in saying one is the "true" definition of the genre as it really comes down to what you mostly play on as opposed to being some objective truth. I wouldn't really consider Diablo for an ARPG for instance but then again I don't really play many WRPG/PC games so it wouldn't necessarily mean my opinion on that matter is correct similar to your feelings about KH since it does fundamentally have both action-style gameplay and RPG elements but I understand you mainly play PC so I can see where your bias lies.

Overall, as I clarified before, I am gathering information for a panel at an anime convention so I am not interested in what the Western side of development is doing. As for the Hack n' Slash term, its the terminology that comes up the most often when I read about Diablo but I have no knowledge of Torchlight and will defer to your knowledge on the matter, I was simply clarifying that historically the genre has its origins in Japanese development and its still going strong there as well with the numerous Tales, KH, and Ys games that still see release.

Yeah, I would never consider Diablo games much of an RPG. They have stat progression. But most games have that these days. Things I consider RPG are more story focused than gameplay focused. And Diablo and its ilk are all very gameplay focused. I suppose that's why they're referred to more frequently as just hack'n'slash and loot-grinds and click-fests. Diablo is more of a progression of things like Gauntlet and Dugneon Explorere. Which were hardly RPGs at all. In the west CRPGs are the big things. And the action versions of those I would totally agree to be the Elder Scrolls series and whatnot. I would call them action-RPGs. But I'd also call Tales an action-RPG. It's just a broad-stroke definition. Years ago if anyone said RPG, everyone thought: Final Fantasy. A JRPG. It doesn't really have to be redefined. We just come up with these subcategories because the markets are so flooded. But just because we want to be general in our definition doesn't mean we're wrong. Tales of Whatever is just an RPG. Also a JRPG. Also an Action RPG. Also an Action-JRPG. You can break down and add a ton of titles to pretty much any game these days. Honestly it's kinda ridiculous and would probably make a pretty good topic for discussion on its own now that I think about it. Reminds me of how metal and rock (and techno, now that I think about it) fans super define all the little niche sub-genres in their preferred music when none of it that is really necessary either

Having been a big fan of both, I'd definitely say Tales has had a bigger impact on me. I played KH first, but it was Tales of Legendia that got me into action RPGs and made me a huge fan of the genre. I have played almost every tales game after that and I am looking forward to new releases. KH...not so much. It's a good game but it just doesn't have the same appeal.

And I honestly feel most people would feel the same...except the fact that most of the market hasn't played them. I guarantee I can stand at my local gamestop and ask people if they have ever played any Tales game and most would say no. Yet, I know hardcore shooter fans, one I currently am roommates with, who absolutely LOVE Kingdom Hearts. They've played it, loved it, and are looking forward to further releases.

Why? I believe it's because of the inclusion of Disney characters. It appealed to their childhood AND looked like a RPG that wasn't "boring turn based game-play" in my friends words. Kingdom Hearts just had a bigger initial appeal to a broader audience. Tales games feel too Japanese without an American appeal for it to get mainstream gamers to give it a chance.

That's a good point. People who were introduced to the genre through KH I don't feel really expanded on that initial introduction into much else. While people who got in through Tales almost inevitably went on to other things. Probably because they have a more typical JRPG flare and its easy to find comparable games. There's not really a whole like KH on the market to further sate the appetite of fans of the series. While you can compare pretty much any generic JRPG to a Tales game and invariably the only major difference will be the encounters. If people can stomach slowing down a bit, they can easily play games like Xenogears or Legaia. Or more recently The Last Story and Xenoblade (or, of course, Star Ocean)

On that note. Are there any games that directly compare to KH that I'm not aware of?

KH is pretty much a sub-genre on it's own; although, if you added multiplayer to it, it could pretty easily be an mmorpg. That's closest thing I can think of to compare it to mechanics-wise. The gameplay elements are so similar; ie: your weapons/armor determine your stats more than your level, the semi-platformer and real time battle aspects. The fact that you control only one character the whole time, but have a changing roster of minions and companions.

All that being said, I never played a Tales game until two years ago, but if I had, it would have been a larger influence. The Tales games have a much broader appeal. KH was pretty much focused on serving two groups of people, where as anyone can pick up a tales game and not scratch their heads in confusion at the references. Most of my friends had played and loved the tales game, for me it was just a lack of the correct platform to play them at the time.

I wouldn't consider Diablo an Action RPG. Maybe technically but it's a dungeon crawler ARPG while KH and Tales are more along the lines of a general Action based RPG.

If you don't consider KH a ARPG then what the hell will you consider XV?

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Originally Posted by Freya

If you don't consider KH a ARPG then what the hell will you consider XV?

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A SARPG sub-genre 2 category 4

Honestly I just call them all RPG's and be done with it