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So if you were watching Sony's Pre-TGS event you probably saw the news that this game is now going to be for both PS3 and PS4 which was quite a surprise, we also got a new teaser trailer that has finally revealed a character for the game.
Here's the teaser trailer:
I sure hope that's the main character. Not enough main characters nowadays wear glasses :D
Did they say it was only going to be on the PS4 before? Because a lot of PS4/XBO games are coming out on their predecessors. I don't find it all that surprising anymore.
At least this way I can actually get the game.
It was the other way around. It was announced on the PS3 only before.
Oh. nvm then.Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
I really want to get excited about this, but the prospect of playing as school kids AGAIN isn't great to be honest. On the bright side, it looks like the city setting is back.
Now what about Dancing All Night news? <3
To be honest, I kinda thought the guy was in college. Still school sure but more mature ey?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow_Magic
I wonder what the chances are of an optional female protagonist.
Not that big a surprise. A straight port from PS3 to PS4 should be relatively simple and makes a lot of sense when you're releasing a new title on PS3 more than a year after the release of it's successor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
SO much respect for Atlus if this was the case. Seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ergroilnin
Sounds cool to me. If nothing else, well probably get a higher game resolution, antialiasing and better frame rate. Maybe even 4k support.
I will never understand the people asking the game to age up the cast for the sake of "maturity" as we're talking about a series where Social Links have touched on the mistrust in family, a person dying from a terminal illness, helping a child cope with a divorce, an old man regretting his past, a girl coming to terms with her hatred of her father, and an old lady dealing with the guilt over her husbands death. The series has touched on plenty of mature themes and didn't need a 30 year old office worker main character to touch upon it.
I honestly can't think of an advantage an older cast would do for this series. Its not like FF which will actually shy away from dark and mature subject matter on the pretense of keeping the game relatable to its tween demographic and thus purposely keeps the cast young to target their demographic.
Sure, because nothing benefits a game more than supporting people wasting their money on TV's with resolutions they'll barely see a difference in unless they sit about two feet away from the screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't mind seeing Atlus tackle an older cast, in part because I'm a stones throw from thirty and that's just something I'd be interested in seeing. But to think they need to deal with adults to make mature games is silly when they're making some of the most mature games around with teenage characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Persona is one of my biggest gaming regrets because it's a series I've known about for a long time but I've never actually played one. I'm happy to know that it is now going to be on PS4 as well because my PS3 broke a while back and I didn't see a point in buying a new one.
It's not that the Persona games aren't mature in context or don't tuckle the darker themes. After all most Atlus games have more or less really dark themes even if the games look bright on the surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
It's just that playing as 16 years olds all the time does get a bit boring after a while. I am not saying we need to play as 60 yo geezers but having party that's in college would be I think ideal. Not too young, not too old. Not to mention there could be new things and social links that wouldn't fit in high school enviroment.
I am curious to hear what social link/story topics a college/working stiff protagonist could bring to the series that can't actually be done with a high school setting, I only say this because Japanese high school is probably closer to Western-style college than our high schools are. I mean I used to think an older cast would be good too until I came to this realization.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErgroilninIt's not that the Persona games aren't mature in context or don't tuckle the darker themes. After all most Atlus games have more or less really dark themes even if the games look bright on the surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
It's just that playing as 16 years olds all the time does get a bit boring after a while. I am not saying we need to play as 60 yo geezers but having party that's in college would be I think ideal. Not too young, not too old. Not to mention there could be new things and social links that wouldn't fit in high school enviroment.
Basically this. Also, as I grow older, I'm finding it harder and harder to empathise with the playable characters. Like, Persona 4 was praised a lot for the character depth (admittedly loads more than the average jRPG) but at the end end of the day the struggles of the PCs really felt like, well, teenage stuff (relationships, finding your "true self", SCHOOL etc. etc.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ergroilnin
Sure, you could argue that there are a shed load of characters outside the playable cast providing maturity in whatever way we'd like, but all the focus on SCHOOL gets a bit tiresome, you know?
Don't Japs get all crazeyh during college with those hairstyles n stuff? Like last blow before work? That could be one for example.
From what I understand Japanese College is pretty much a break, most of their real education is in high school and college is pretty much for socializing and goofing off.
Yellow_Magic: I agree about P4 being mostly about silly teenage drama which is largely why I like the P3 cast better because despite being high school students, they were dealing with revenge, regret for killing a person, losing family and loved ones and living with the shame of your family legacy. Honestly not a single character had any real teenage drama that a teenager would have to grapple with and that is why I can feel confident about sticking to the HS element because they prove they can still deal with mature subject matters with young characters when written right.
The issue with college is that it doesn't offer anything new, you are basically just making them older but it wouldn't change the club activities or people you meet very much. You just get the reassurance you're playing someone older than eighteen which in my mind is a waste. Adults also wouldn't work as well from a social link level because frankly adulthood sucks for social gatherings in a realistic setting as we're all building family's and careers while losing touch with old friends and our world gets more narrow. I'm not saying it can be done but I feel the HS scenario offers more variety and easier means of breaking willing-suspension of disbelief with eccentric characters.
As I said, I have yet to see someone come up with a strong scenario that justifies an older cast that either couldn't be done with a HS cast.
I'm sorry you have poor vision or a small TV :(.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi22Sure, because nothing benefits a game more than supporting people wasting their money on TV's with resolutions they'll barely see a difference in unless they sit about two feet away from the screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Silly insults aside, I think you're overestimating how much work would be needed to maybe add 4k support. I've never seen Persona (or SMT for that matter) as a series with cutting-edge graphics. It's mostly been low-poly stuff with relatively simple effects but cool art direction. I think it's a safe assumption that P5 wasn't going to push the limits of the PS3, and when we now get that game on PS4, I don't think it's very far fetched to think that the PS4 might be able to run the game in a significantly higher resolution than 1920x1080. If the console has enough power, it would almost be silly not to put in the very small amount of work that it would require to enable higher resolutions.
I'm going to admit that I don't even have a 4k display, and that I probably wouldn't notice much of a difference on my 42" at ~3 meters viewing distance. However, my next TV will probably be well over 50 inches, and at those sizes, that extra resolution really does make a difference, especially in games, where you have a more sharp lines and contrasts than in "live action" stuff.
I never said it would be a lot of work. But it is pretty useless right now since it's nearly impossible to distinguish any difference between the picture on a good 1080p tv and a UHDTV. The TV's themselves are simply a waste of money if you're thinking a resolution that high matters on screens that small. If the extra pixels aren't being put to use to increase how much you can see, there's literally no benefit to a game bothering with it. Especially when the tech is still pretty new and the TV's are a complete rip off at around $5k for what they actually offer the buyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirageI'm sorry you have poor vision or a small TV :(.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi22Sure, because nothing benefits a game more than supporting people wasting their money on TV's with resolutions they'll barely see a difference in unless they sit about two feet away from the screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Silly insults aside, I think you're overestimating how much work would be needed to maybe add 4k support.
When they can cram that resolution into a TV for under a grand and every TV offers those resolutions because it's cheap so why the hell not, then it'd be worth at least supporting. But until I can get a TV as large as the wall of my living room it has absolutely no practical benefit to anyone. Supporting TV's with refresh rates of 120Hz or greater by offering frame rates that aren't laughably slow is the most useful thing they could be doing to support better TV's these days.
So what your saying is it would look absolutely fantastic on my 55? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MirageI'm sorry you have poor vision or a small TV :(.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi22Sure, because nothing benefits a game more than supporting people wasting their money on TV's with resolutions they'll barely see a difference in unless they sit about two feet away from the screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Silly insults aside, I think you're overestimating how much work would be needed to maybe add 4k support. I've never seen Persona (or SMT for that matter) as a series with cutting-edge graphics. It's mostly been low-poly stuff with relatively simple effects but cool art direction. I think it's a safe assumption that P5 wasn't going to push the limits of the PS3, and when we now get that game on PS4, I don't think it's very far fetched to think that the PS4 might be able to run the game in a significantly higher resolution than 1920x1080. If the console has enough power, it would almost be silly not to put in the very small amount of work that it would require to enable higher resolutions.
I'm going to admit that I don't even have a 4k display, and that I probably wouldn't notice much of a difference on my 42" at ~3 meters viewing distance. However, my next TV will probably be well over 50 inches, and at those sizes, that extra resolution really does make a difference, especially in games, where you have a more sharp lines and contrasts than in "live action" stuff.
Yes, neocracker, that is what I'm saying. If your 55" can do 4k.
Anyway Vivi, what is and isn't indistinguishable to you doesn't really affect what's distinguishable to me :p.
In either case, if the PS4 can run the game at 4k, why not do it? I can think of a couple of reasons why they should, but not many reasons why they should not.
First, it "looks good" in ads. Not many games can brag about supporting 4k resolution and still have a playable framerate. It might get some attention because of that, and it wouldn't be negative attention. Second, it would make the game look sharp and crisp for a very long time. People who are late on getting new game systems and games could load up the game in 2017 (when 4k is probably more common) and still think "hey that's pretty darn sharp for being several years old".
I imagine playtesting the most graphically intensive parts of the game in 4k would take longer than it would to actually implement the resolution mode. I still don't think that's gonna be a significant portion of their budget.
And as much as i would like 120fps in console games, it's pretty unrealistic. In fact, even a stable 60fps at 1080p seems to be too much to ask for in this current gen.
I guess my problem with the series so far was that I couldn't get into how P3 played, so I never got to experience the plot and characters properly. I more got into P4 for some reason, and while I loved it, it very much was a lot of teenager stuff. My thing for wanting an older cast would simply be to force the writers arms in making teenage drama. They'd HAVE to explore other venues for character development and drama. It's hard to relate to a character when you're 30 and they're still getting grounded by their parent/guardian and getting lectures and reprimanded for things. It does what the game aims for, but what the game aims for is sadly just not for me. If they are at college, this becomes less of an issue. I think that was my biggest problem with P4. Having to keep your uncle happy. In that regard, I think P3 kinda pulled me out with the lectures and quizzes. Very school'y and unrelatable. If they do this sort of thing, I would much prefer the main protagonist be an actual character, rather than be an avatar of mine. It doesn't make a very good avatar if I can't relate to it. Other than that, the plots and subject matters were very nice. But as Vivi said, I'm older, and just can't stop yearning to see what writers for video games can do. They just refuse to do. And that need to satiate curiosity typically saps enjoyment of games with children as cast that I might otherwise have had. And arguably the game even deserves to have, because my distaste is completely biased on my part (fully admitted)
I don't know man, a game where your protagonist is a 30 something with a dead end office job and the wife and 2.5 kids you have to deal with every day and your only moment of freedom is going bowling with your high school/college friends who all spend their time yearning for the "good old days of high school" just doesn't sound like an engaging story for me.
I'm not saying an adult wouldn't work but it would seriously shift the dynamics and likely alienate more demographics in the long run, at least us old people remember high school and can relate to it, what's a tween going to do when their main antagonist has to worry about fighting Shadows, getting their mortgage bill paid on time, and dealing with a teething baby? Not exactly ideal material for a supernatural drama set in the real world that will appeal to a large demographic. Again I would love to hear ideas from peeps about what a college-aged group of characters could bring to the narrative and social links that can't already be accomplished with the current formula.
Well, yeah. When you put it like that. That's really not the kind of adult-life I would imagine of a modern video game protagonist lol But again, my biggest problem was being lectured by a father figure
I'd picture something more along the lines of some mid-20's something person renting a house with 4 other people, having an active social/dating life. Some non-boring job that might add to the dynamic of the game. Not to pull too much from P4 but a detective or something would probably work great. Though these days too many modern Japanese games have that sorta thing. But it's at least a gateway idea. Adults are still capable of extra-curricular activities. They were never a huge deal in P4, it was just a chance to meet people. So bowling isn't really a bad one, but it'd be more like game nights, or book clubs, or going to the gym and stuff
It's weird, because I see things the exact opposite as you. I don't think being a teenager adds anything that being adult couldn't also be done. The only real counter-argument I can concede is just "if it's not broke don't fix it". But it could still easily be done and I'd see little reason not to. But to each their own
Well... the trailer gave us almost nothing to go on. The art direction is still as awesome as ever though. :)
So basically you want to play a TV sitcom version of adult life. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
Honestly I don't see the issue with the father figure of anything I felt it actually added a new dynamic cause lord knows the cast of the first three games got away with murder while the adults twittered about. Of anything the family dynamic of the main character with his uncle and niece is probably one of the best written elements about P4 and if we were to go towards and adult character the best opportunity for expansion of the writing would be to make you a family man. There is no real benefit for making a twenty-something college student or some person living in an apartment that is going to expand the dynamic past what we are already experiencing with the current formula. If we go adult we have to bring the reality of it otherwise they would just be bowing down t silly pressure cause some middle-aged gamers feel ostracized but will be easily pacified by getting the same experience but making the cast all the same age as them. The social link dynamic is flexible and could work on many levels and I do feel an adult cast could work with it but I feel it would bring a very different experience and I feel it would probably turn away some people because it would involve really altering the mechanics and that's a risky move for any game company.
As I said, what does an adult character bring to the story that would make it a better writing experience for the players. In games like FF, it could open up new avenues of character dynamic and bring some fresh ideas to old standbys like love stories or more believability to the characters back story but Persona and Shin Megami Tensei in general has always dealt with a silent protagonist who is the player avatar. The game involve building up who this character is by the players choices but if you think about age doesn't really matter and making them a child vs. and old man would probably get you the same results in the long run. I'm not opposed to aging up the characters, I've just yet to see someone give a good reason why it should be the logical step besides "I'm tired of playing high school kids and want a relatable age group" but doing it for that is just pandering whereas I would prefer the choice be made because they feel it could be made into a powerful narrative.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from and it definitely helps put P3 in a more positive light. Honestly, there wasn't a huge amount of school in Persona 3 as opposed to, like, saving the world etc., which made P3 feel more like any other old jRPG as opposed to P4...so while you could argue P3 achieved everything that would be possible with an older cast, one could counter with the idea that a high school cast wasn't needed in P3. It depends on how you look at the issue, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I think it'd just make a nice change, personally. I don't really know much about how Japanese colleges operate, myself, but I'm guessing a large proportion of the western audience wouldn't and as such would be interested in comparing their own college lifestyles to the Japanese versions. Something to consider IMOQuote:
The issue with college is that it doesn't offer anything new, you are basically just making them older but it wouldn't change the club activities or people you meet very much. You just get the reassurance you're playing someone older than eighteen which in my mind is a waste.
Wow, you're certainly not helping me look forward to starting full-time work proper next week lol. I agree with you to an extent, but not ALL adults' lives are that, well, boring...Quote:
Adults also wouldn't work as well from a social link level because frankly adulthood sucks for social gatherings in a realistic setting as we're all building family's and careers while losing touch with old friends and our world gets more narrow. I'm not saying it can be done but I feel the HS scenario offers more variety and easier means of breaking willing-suspension of disbelief with eccentric characters.
I think Baofu and indeed, Ulala from Eternal Punishment are pretty good examples of such justification. Katsuya to a certain extent as wellQuote:
As I said, I have yet to see someone come up with a strong scenario that justifies an older cast that either couldn't be done with a HS cast.
You really should play Persona 2: Eternal Punishment if you haven't already, because it almost has exactly what you're looking for - even a detective!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
Yes, they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow_Magic
There is a lot that can be lost when aging characters as well.
Adults far more flexible. It's easy to relate to school kids because we all went to school. If you go with an adult, though, how easy is it going to be? If how "relatable" the character will be is the concern, how can we all relate to such vastly different life experiences? Some of us work retail, some flip burgers, some join the military, some take on office work, some continue schooling. There isn't a common theme element that everyone is familiar with and can instantly relate to.
Then too, adults simply have less free time overall (as you settle into a career, it gets a bit better, but trust me, adults never have as much free time as it seems when you're a kid). This can destroy the structure of the games, giving less time for the actual adventure. Balance between the two is very important to the series, and shattering that balance could be detrimental. It places some structure and rigidity on life that simply isn't there. Even if you work a 9 to 5 job five days a week, you will do overtime, be called for special circumstances, etcetera. Getting rid of that sort of element would shatter some of the reality that the series grounds itself in so well.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing older characters. Mostly because I feel that older characters have a better chance of interacting with SEES, the Shadow Operatives, and the Investigation Team. I want more classic characters, and that means older ones, because the characters are aging (or more spin-offs like Persona Q). But there are problems there too. I mean, if we just started as a member of the Shadow Operatives, we would be an adult whose job was hunting down monsters. Kind of a blow to the legitimacy of the world, and that grounding in reality is something that is very important to Persona.
I do think it's possible (I even have a few ideas for how it might work), but it is something that would need to be handled carefully.
Fortunately, it's ATLUS. One of the fewer developers I can actually trust. Whatever they do, it's going to be awesome.
Well it pioneered the concept of the social link system and the formula so its really hard to say if it needed it or not, personally I just feel a high school setting makes everything very convenient in regards to explaining how your characters meet and giving the player lots of options for outside activites, we are talking the age group that games harder than others because they have way more free time than most people but also because they are not expected to be dealing with responsibility like an adult would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow_Magic
It's a valid point but I would also point out that we never really see anime college stories either so I'm of the opinion its not as interesting or just more of the same with less stress and need for activities. My issue is that beyond curiosity I still don't feel it would add a new layer to the narrative that can't already be achieved with the current formula.Quote:
I think it'd just make a nice change, personally. I don't really know much about how Japanese colleges operate, myself, but I'm guessing a large proportion of the western audience wouldn't and as such would be interested in comparing their own college lifestyles to the Japanese versions. Something to consider IMO
It's not that its boring it has more to do with a different mindset. Teenagers are for the most part encouraged to be selfish and self-absorbed because it's really the only time of your life you can do it unless your adulthood throws you into an outlier demographic of societal norms. Adults tend to just be more responsible. I mean in college I had no issue staying up all night or bar hopping with friends but now I've got too much stuff on my plate to be like that anymore. I'm usually one of the first of my friends who will refuse a last minute invitation to a friendly get together if I know I have work the next morning and I don't really blow my money on frivolous activities when I have rent and bills to account for. Not saying I couldn't choose to be a bum and act like I did ten years ago but I prefer being stable than living paycheck to paycheck. It's why Vincent from Catherine is an interesting case because despite being a man near his 30s he acts more like Junpei or Yosuke than he does say Mitsuru or Dojima. His whole story arc is choosing whether he wants to be a responsible adult or flutter his life away like he has been by acting like he's still a student.Quote:
Wow, you're certainly not helping me look forward to starting full-time work proper next week lol. I agree with you to an extent, but not ALL adults' lives are that, well, boring...
Seriously, most of my friends who have real 9 to 5 jobs never have time to hang out except every blue moon. My friends who started families dropped out of my life due to being too busy with the new family and also because hanging out with them was usually awkward because all they talk about is their family while I only have stupid trout to talk about. Our interest and focus changed and while they are all cool people I ended up drifting away from them because our responsibilities took us in different directions. My point is that adults would have bigger issues skipping out on school to stop shadows as opposed to adults skipping out on work, bills and family. It will catch up to them though I guess the game could implement a system where you have to earn enough to pay your living expensive and then use the rest to buy equipment and summon personas for fusion but I don't know how well that would go over. Again, I don't feel it couldn't be done, I'm just saying an adult main cast would seriously alter a lot of dynamics of the formula that would risk losing the audience but since this thread I have been brainstorming what an adult Persona game might be like and it intrigues me even if I don't feel it would do well with its target audience.
They are all fantastic characters but not great material for the social link system, Ulala would spend hers whining about not getting a boyfriend, Baofu would spend his time boring you to death about baseball, and Katsuya would spend his time divulging his insecurity about whether Tatsuya likes him and that one was actually done in P4 with the Temperance S.L. ;)Quote:
I think Baofu and indeed, Ulala from Eternal Punishment are pretty good examples of such justification. Katsuya to a certain extent as well
When I speak about adult characters I'm thinking in terms of what they could bring to the S.L. side of things I mean these three characters are great but their major drawing power as story figures is front line stuff, their social link side is kind of dull because so much of their personal quirks are directly tied to plot moving events that it would be hard to come up with a compelling SL for them.
I agree, especially since it sounds to me like the social/dating aspect of the game does not appeal to you, P2 is a pretty traditional JRPG in comparison to the games that came after and its a better game than the first one.Quote:
You really should play Persona 2: Eternal Punishment if you haven't already, because it almost has exactly what you're looking for - even a detective!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
I think one of the reasons why I don't quite want to move away from the formula is because I feel there is still room to grow. The High School angle has not been fully tapped just yet as much as players just having ADHD about wanting meaningless change in the hopes it will bring a fresh perspective but I would rather watch the S.L. system evolve into areas it hasn't touched yet like dealing with cheating partners, your friends S.L. with other characters (which can be used to build better teamwork among friends) actually play up being a poor student in the school as opposed to some genius star athlete, using the clubs to customize your characters and delving how gender roles play in a high school setting. Seriously the whole thing is far from being tapped out and I don't believe the P-Team is beating a dead horse just yet in concept... their blatant fan pandering to the P3/P4 fans on the other hand...
Upon that suggestion I pretty much immediately looked into it. And the P2 we got for the PS1 (which I guess was the second scenario?) seemed extremely awesome. But unfortunately I can't get it to run very well on my PSP. There's an incredible amount of slowdown during dialog and menu management. Which makes me very sad, because I was loving the set-up. And adult, female, with a job. The sprite work and blocky environments reminded me a lot of Xenogears game engine (which I love for some reason). and a good ol' Persona plot which I haven't been able to fully enjoy just yet no matter how much I want to. The only down side I've heard is that you have to grind for personas and experience separately. But other than that it's supposed to be really good. The fan-translation of the second one works great on my PSP. But you're back as a male protagonist in high school again. Though I doubt it's very much like P3. So I may still enjoy it, as it seems to be the only option. Especially since that's the one they remade and localized in America specifically for the PSP (which I may yet buy). I saw there was fanwork on Eternal Punishment's PSP Japan-only release. But they're only just now getting underway so it'll be a whileQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoI agree, especially since it sounds to me like the social/dating aspect of the game does not appeal to you, P2 is a pretty traditional JRPG in comparison to the games that came after and its a better game than the first oneQuote:
You really should play Persona 2: Eternal Punishment if you haven't already, because it almost has exactly what you're looking for - even a detective!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
Seriously debating on buying it on PSN and seeing if it plays better officially from Sony, rather than a CD rip. Otherwise I may just have to play it on my computer. Not really a big deal. I'd just rather not. But either way, great suggestion on that one. Thank you. Maybe if once I finally get through a real Persona game I can start to enjoy the rest of the series on the merits rather than getting needlessly fixed up on superficial elements like character age
If you end up liking Eternal Punishment, definitely check out Innocent Sin because the games are directly connected in a deeper way than most direct sequels.
Persona levels are not much of an issue in this game as they only go up to level 8 and as long as you have them equipped on characters who have great comparability its not much of an issue to power level them quickly. Personas level by just using fusion spells which is what the game wants you to do anyway since they make battles much easier. Its only trying to bother with mutations that can get tedious but if you don't care about any of that nonsense then you can breeze through the game fairly easy. The story gained Greek Set Ultimate Personas are more than enough to beat the game.
Eternal Punishment's plot is pretty dark compared to other entries, I think only P3 comes close to meeting it. Innocent Sin is a bit goofy with some dark undertones until the final act when the game gets pretty dark which then leads into Eternal Punishment.
It's weird that we got the second one first here, kinda? Though I was told they're just alternate timelines. So I didn't figure playing them in their actual order was that big a deal. Other than Joker talking about them like he knew them, and people having Deja Vu with each other. Which would have intrigued me even more had I gone in blind. I love stories like that, throwing stuff at you like you're supposed to know, and then actually explaining it later. Builds a mystery, Memento-style