Gameplay vs Story

Moved from the "Love the game, hate its fans" thread. ~Scotty

I can't stop shaking my head about the never-ending ignorance of fans who think think they have the right to decide what is and is not about franchises that they officially do not own or them hating on everything that might have a few disadvantages. Pretty much like with the new Dragon Ball movies that come out and people laugh how the contain material and think it is great while they hated the same stuff coming out in Dragon Ball GT. And of course all that comes from them are absurb excuses. Same goes for the fans that rant about the PS4 port of Final Fantasy VII where now many videos are made and they are all like "everyone is shocked! everyone thought an actual remake will be done!" even though the whole show would have been way more spectacular from the very beginning if something like that would have been announced so it was pretty obvious anyway. And I cannot take people who are uninformed and generalizing seriously.

"We all know Final Fantasy XIII sucked, Lightning was terrible."

Mhm - except for the other millions of fans who disagree with you.

So yes, fans are great.

NOTE: I do still find some of their comments funny.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Competitive Game Fans. You know the ones. The ones who will sneer at you if you try to talk about the story in something like StarCraft or most fighting games. Because all that matters is the gameplay, nothing else.

Idiots.

Metal Gear fans are also pretty bad.

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Gameplay is really all that matters, though. A game with a good story and troutty gameplay is a terrible game. A game with a troutty story and good gameplay is a good game. :monster:

I do agree that some of the competitive people take it too far though.

Now, I didn't explain my last post, so I will now.

Mega Man fans had a habit of clamoring for new games, and then not buying them. Then blaming Capcom when they stopped making new games in the series.

Now they have a habit of, since Cap basically said "screw you whiny assholes, we are not making any more Mega Man games," showing exactly WHY they don't deserve any new games. And on top of that, they are backing Mighty No. 9, which is nothing but a ripoff of Mega Man anyway.

As crazy as about 10% of the Street Fighter fanbase can be, at least they actually buy and play the games.

I'm with polnareff.

It doesn't take a lot of enjoyable gameplay for me to be able to force myself through a bad story. However, it does take an almost impossibly good story to make me force myself through terrible gameplay.

That's why I've never played xenosaga.

I think a game with bad to no story is bad and nothing else except its main focus never was the story in the first place like some Hack 'n Slays I have. But even those are ~.

I found if one game doesn't have at least a decent gameplay/story next to the better part then I can't enjoy it period.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

I found if one game doesn't have at least a decent gameplay/story next to the better part then I can't enjoy it period.

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This is pretty much my side of things as well. If you have amazing gameplay and crap story, I really find it hard to get into and especially hard to maintain interest. Which is the sole reason why I have yet to try FFXIII because I've seen and heard the story in action and was witness to it being torn to shreds by The Spoony Experiment. And I completely agreed with his assessments on FFVIII and FFX so I can safely presume he's actually right about XIII's story being garbage. So I guess that's where I diverge from the fandom where Polnareff and Sephiroth seem to stand

Whether one prefers the gameplay or story is up to the individual. I feel that they're both very valid options. Personally I see story as being secondary to the gameplay/genre, and even secondary to the world (i.e. I prefer games with a neat world where I can make my own character and story within that world, rather than following a preset character and story.)

However I understand that this isn't exactly the most popular opinion on an RPG forum, and I accept that.

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Originally Posted by Vyk

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

I found if one game doesn't have at least a decent gameplay/story next to the better part then I can't enjoy it period.

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This is pretty much my side of things as well. If you have amazing gameplay and crap story, I really find it hard to get into and especially hard to maintain interest. Which is the sole reason why I have yet to try FFXIII because I've seen and heard the story in action and was witness to it being torn to shreds by The Spoony Experiment. And I completely agreed with his assessments on FFVIII and FFX so I can safely presume he's actually right about XIII's story being garbage. So I guess that's where I diverge from the fandom where Polnareff and Sephiroth seem to stand

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I was too scared to watch his video on FFX. You won't convert me, Spoony!

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Originally Posted by Vyk

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

I found if one game doesn't have at least a decent gameplay/story next to the better part then I can't enjoy it period.

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This is pretty much my side of things as well. If you have amazing gameplay and crap story, I really find it hard to get into and especially hard to maintain interest. Which is the sole reason why I have yet to try FFXIII because I've seen and heard the story in action and was witness to it being torn to shreds by The Spoony Experiment. And I completely agreed with his assessments on FFVIII and FFX so I can safely presume he's actually right about XIII's story being garbage. So I guess that's where I diverge from the fandom where Polnareff and Sephiroth seem to stand

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And where is that different from me except you not liking the story?

I think that games with bad stories are bad games. I think FFXIII is a bad game. From what you said earlier, you think it's a good game because of good gameplay. That's where I meant that we differ

I'm in the minority on this one but characters are most important to me. Story is very important, but not as much. Like Bravely Default. I would have enjoyed that game SO MUCH MORE if I gave one crap about any of the characters. Just one of them. But I didn't and so its been ranked lower for me than games with inferior stories and gameplay. Same with Xenogears.

A good story is very important but for me I need the right characters to flesh it out. I will enjoy a game with crap story and crap gameplay if I really like the characters. But story is second most important and third is gameplay. There have been some games that were just unplayable to me, like Chrono Cross, so even though it had an interesting story I just couldn't play it

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Originally Posted by Vyk

I think that games with bad stories are bad games. I think FFXIII is a bad game. From what you said earlier, you think it's a good game because of good gameplay. That's where I meant that we differ

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I never said such a thing. I love the story of Final Fantasy XIII and never said it had a good or bad story and good gameplay. You are the only one here claiming Final Fantasy XIII's story is bad, most people know I love Final Fantasy XIII and the story of Final Fantasy in general. I said bad games are defined for me through a bad story ultimately but that something that is not supposed to be focused on story like some Hack 'n Slays are an exception. Final Fantasy XIII was never mentioned when it comes to that and it is not a Hack 'n Slay. It is not good for me because of good gameplay but because it is a true Final Fantasy. Fun to play and a story to enjoy. Incomparable to other heavily overrated Final Fantasys and just treated bad through the Anti Hype Hype because it is cool to hate things.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

"We all know Final Fantasy XIII sucked, Lightning was terrible."

Mhm - except for the other millions of fans who disagree with you.

So yes, fans are great.

NOTE: I do still find some of their comments funny.

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This is what I was referring to. I got the impression you were siding with the "millions of fans who disagree". Not that it matters. But just to answer your question

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Originally Posted by Vyk

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

"We all know Final Fantasy XIII sucked, Lightning was terrible."

Mhm - except for the other millions of fans who disagree with you.

So yes, fans are great.

NOTE: I do still find some of their comments funny.

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This is what I was referring to. I got the impression you were siding with the "millions of fans who disagree". Not that it matters. But just to answer your question

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Yes, I disagree with them. However I do not know how that makes you think I think "it has a bad story but good gameplay so I still love it". As far as it goes Final Fantasy XIII for me has good story and gameplay while having its flaws.

The main reason why I largely quit playing video games is because I was growing out of the rather teeny bopper stories that 95% of them had and could really care less about the gameplay.

Now that more adult oriented stories have started becoming increasingly common place I have started playing games a little bit (though I still go months without turning on the power button).

I do have an interesting question though. For those that prefer gameplay over story can you sit through some of the TellTale Walking Dead games? Games that have great stories but virtually no gameplay and are more choose what to say type games then fight any monsters?

I thought 13-2 had one of the worst stories I had ever seen, but I had a really good time doing the actual game part of the game, so I still did just about everything there was to do in that game. I feel somewhat the same about FFX-2, although I find that game's story to be just uninteresting and a bit dumb, but not directly repulsive like with 13-2. FFX-2 is probably one of the FF games I have spent the most time on, even if it I never really cared about the story.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

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Originally Posted by Vyk

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

"We all know Final Fantasy XIII sucked, Lightning was terrible."

Mhm - except for the other millions of fans who disagree with you.

So yes, fans are great.

NOTE: I do still find some of their comments funny.

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This is what I was referring to. I got the impression you were siding with the "millions of fans who disagree". Not that it matters. But just to answer your question

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Yes, I disagree with them. However I do not know how that makes you think I think "it has a bad story but good gameplay so I still love it". As far as it goes Final Fantasy XIII for me has good story and gameplay while having its flaws.

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Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Just a simple misunderstanding. I was just picking examples to show a contrast on how I feel about games. Sorry to have included you in that example. I meant no offense

But on topic: My thing tends to be if they're going to do it, they may as well do it well. Whether its the characters, gameplay, or story. If they're not going to do characters well, they may as well delegate them to a background or not really have them at all. Same with story. If they can't write well, embrace their terribleness. I don't mind camp. I don't mind poking fun at themselves. I don't mind well-done simple stories. But if they can't do a large-scale grand epic well, then they should just not. A lot of the more recent Final Fantasys I felt were failed grand epics and I would have probably loved them if they didn't take themselves so seriously, or perhaps just dialed it back and didn't try to make things so convoluted so it stayed in a capacity that the writers could actually achieve. And then there is of course gameplay. I don't think that it doesn't matter, but it doesn't have to be great either. Just entertaining to one degree or another

My favorite game has no story therefore gameplay > story.

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Originally Posted by tony12

I do have an interesting question though. For those that prefer gameplay over story can you sit through some of the TellTale Walking Dead games? Games that have great stories but virtually no gameplay and are more choose what to say type games then fight any monsters?

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yes I can and I do enjoy them.

For me it really comes down to the game, because not all games need a narrative or even a really focused one which is how I can get behind stuff like Team Ico and ThatOneGameCompany titles because the narrative tends to be more bonus than the main event.

I think a great story with really bad gameplay can't save a game, like say Xenosaga Episode II, on the other hand a great gameplay can overcome a weak story. I generally agree with Pike that story should come second to gameplay in a game.

I do feel that a great story with mediocre gameplay can still make for a good game (Xenogears) and I also feel that great gameplay with a mediocre plot can make a good game as well (FFV) it just comes down to tolerance level I guess.

Well most of the time I prefer gameplay to story, considering it's game and I am supposed to have fun actually playing it. If I need a great story without playing, I may as well read a book or watch some movie.

That said, I don't ignore stories in the games at all, if game has both good gameplay and good story, I usually go back to it and replay it every once in a while.

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Originally Posted by Ergroilnin

Well most of the time I prefer gameplay to story, considering it's game and I am supposed to have fun actually playing it. If I need a great story without playing, I may as well read a book or watch some movie.

That said, I don't ignore stories in the games at all, if game has both good gameplay and good story, I usually go back to it and replay it every once in a while.

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Or you could watch a playthrough off of youtube. That is what I did with The Last of Us because I can absolutely not sit through gameplay mechanics anylonger.

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Originally Posted by tony12

I do have an interesting question though. For those that prefer gameplay over story can you sit through some of the TellTale Walking Dead games? Games that have great stories but virtually no gameplay and are more choose what to say type games then fight any monsters?

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If there isn't much gameplay in the game, then there isn't much gameplay that can be bad :p.
I'm fine with playing adventure games, although it's not my favourite genre.

It depends on what the game is focused on.

If the game has a clear intention from the start to focus on gameplay, I judge it by the gameplay. If the game has a clear intention from the start to focus on writing, story and characters, I judge it by the writing, story and characters. I split those three things up because it is very easy to confuse one of these things (story) with the other two (writing and characters). There are games that I feel have a terrible characters but a great story, and vice versa. Some have a crap story and characters, but the writing makes it worth pushing through because it's hilarious.

I highly doubt people judge Pacman, Sonic the Hedgehog, Tekken or Formula One Grand Prix based on story. If they do, power to them, but you get what I mean. I'm confident that someone who values story highly can still enjoy these games if they enjoy the gameplay.

Likewise, I highly doubt that people judge most point and click games on the gameplay. Many point and click games are just small puzzles to help you learn more about the story. Hell, even RPGs are often this way - the gameplay can be minimal but the story can be so deep that you just can't help yourself and keep chipping away.

In the end, it's just individual reaction. You either like something about a game for whatever reason or you don't for whatever reason. Thankfully I enjoy almost every game I play. I actually feel a little sorry for people who dislike games I enjoy. I feel they are missing out but it's not really their fault, it's just that they don't happen to like something. They are the losers in this situation. Not losers as an insult, but they are missing out on a source of enjoyment, so I consider myself a winner there. Likewise, I consider myself a loser when it comes to food. I dislike a large number of foods (well, not huge, but enough of them) and this means that I don't get to enjoy as many foods as others do. I can't help that, it's not my fault, but it's the way it is and I miss out on a source of enjoyment because I don't like mushrooms or fried tomato.

Very well said.. BoB wins the thread. Now that you mention it I'm kinda the same way. There are some fairly simplistic games I adore. Due to gameplay. And some broken games I adore for everything but gameplay

There are a lot of elements that can make or break game, even outside of gameplay and story, like music or voice acting. As long as everything is at least serviceable, which is fortunately the case for most video games, I can at least spend a few hours tinkering around.

I always say, though, that gameplay has become a lot more important to me as I've grown into my mid-20s. It's probably why I prefer Oblivion over the superior polish of Skyrim or the vastly more interesting Morrowind, because its quest progression and dungeoneering tops both of them. Xenogears is likely my last hurrah as far as playing an RPG with terrible game play solely for a good story, as I just don't have the free time to do that anymore. It's probably why i politely turned down Vivi's offer of a free Deus Ex key. Not saying it has bad gameplay, it just doesn't seem like it's aged well enough for me to slog through it to find out how great it is.

I think that the mixture of the two itself is what really makes a game good or bad. Granted, I'm much more likely to actually play a game that has good gameplay if it has a bad story than if a game has bad gameplay and a good story. But if the gameplay and the story complement one another, that's really best, I think.

Like BoB said it depends on the focus of the game but I tend towards games with good stories and only require the gameplay to not be tedious.

I agree with BoB, it is definitely based on what the game intended from the outset. You'd hardly judge Mario to be the pinnacle of a rich story (not that it's the pinnacle of game-play either, but you know).


The only grey area is when games appear to weigh both equally. The Mass Effect series appears to tread this line, in my opinion. Judging the Mass Effect series is impossible to do if you focus primarily on either game-play or story (shorthand for writing, story and characters, too difficult to write that all the time!). You have to judge it on both, and factor in both roughly 50/50 when making a final assessment.

My first games didn't really have story, just gameplay. That's what got me into games in the first place. I liked it because it was fun. If the game has a good story to compliment it, then I consider it a bonus feature. Because the gameplay is interactive and I think provides the most immersive experience, I think it's pretty darn important they get it right! I mean, great cutscenes are nice and all, but since most of your time is spent doing actual gameplay, doesn't that seem more important? It does to me, at least.

I can see how people whose first games were RPGs and such might think differently. My first games were side-scrolling action games. Pretty much just start and go. Zelda introduced me to action/adventure which tends to have story, but not let it overshadow gameplay. I liked the stories even more when I had fun exploring those worlds.

I had a hard time getting into RPGs because I originally didn't like the menu-based fighting mechanics. I always thought, "why bother clicking an option that says 'fight' when I could actually do it myself?" It didn't make sense to me and I thought it boring. But I was always impressed by how well-designed the other parts of the games were. They were very intricate in design with many collectibles and secrets to find. Eventually, I grew to like the traditional menu-based controls when I realized you can mix things up with proper strategy. So even though RPGs tend to be known for their story, I still like immersive worlds and the gameplay within so much more.

Yeah, I think that might be part of the fundamental difference in people's views. RPGs just spoke more to me as a medium. Then again, I'm a weirdo who was allowed to pull up at the table while my brothers were playing Dungeons and Dragons when I was only six years old. I was bred for role playing games

I mean, we started out with Mario and Castlevania of course. But those games didn't speak to me on the level that Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior did when they finally rolled out. I kept playing random "gameplay" based games, but my favorite games always ended up being the RPGs. And I always considered them the novels of the video game world. Not sure why that analogy matters anymore. I guess that makes the other games the comic books of the medium lol

But yeah, it all bred me and trained my brain to care more about story and character than action, flashy cameras, or tight controls

But once in a while a great game with great controls will pull me out and show me what gameplay games are all about. And I appreciate those when they can come along and grab me

Nay, I started out with Mario and didn't play a RPG game until 1997. I was just thinking of modern games in general when I first answered the question.

If I wanted a good story I could be reading a book or watching a movie or TV show. I chose to play a game and that's for a reason. Though obviously the better the story, the better the game, but it's not a dealbreaker.

Gameplay is more important to me. The story, characters, and environment is what engages me, but the gameplay is what keeps me playing. With that said, I would not think very highly of a game with a crappy story unless of course it doesn't really have one and I'm just playing it for mindless fun to begin with. It also depends on the genre. For instance, I believe RPG's demand a good story because the formula of traditional RPG's; especially turn-based is very cut and dry.

To sum it up: -
- I marathoned through Shenmue in a weekend
- I've been trying to complete one Zelda game for more than 15 years

Story all the way! All games should be coupled with a decent control scheme, but there is very little that video games do today that is new. Therefore there are no dopamine receptors going into overdrive because of a new kinesthic experience. Perhaps if I was new to gaming, then I'd probably be more focused on that side initially. "Wow! I can shoot people without the repercussions of 18 to Life!" We're all stimulated in different ways though. :) The only games where I don't care much are racing games, but I'm bored of them now unless you plugged me into an actual simulator that accurately portrayed the physics of a real driving experience. But then you're getting away from what may be technically defined as a game.

But frankly...just give me an audiobook instead.

Without good gameplay it's not really even a game so, you know, there's that.

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Originally Posted by Leigh

All games should be coupled with a decent control scheme, but there is very little that video games do today that is new. Therefore there are no dopamine receptors going into overdrive because of a new kinesthic experience.

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There's a lot more to gameplay than a control scheme, and you're playing the wrong games if you think there isn't enough new stuff being done these days.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

There's a lot more to gameplay than a control scheme, and you're playing the wrong games if you think there isn't enough new stuff being done these days.

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But how new? New as in genre-establishing? Or just tacking on using a shovel in a platformer game? :)

Story all the way for me. After all, I do consider visual novels to be games, and that decides that. They have no engaging gameplay to speak of (though there is the occasional exception) but the story is what makes them some of my favorite games.

Though it might be a whole different story if a game with a good plot was actually hindered by very bad gameplay instead of just not having or relying on any. I'd probably look up a playthrough in that case.

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Originally Posted by Leigh

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

There's a lot more to gameplay than a control scheme, and you're playing the wrong games if you think there isn't enough new stuff being done these days.

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But how new? New as in genre-establishing? Or just tacking on using a shovel in a platformer game? :)

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You don't have to establish a completely new genre to do things that haven't been done before. Portal didn't invent the first person puzzle game. The original StarCraft didn't invent the RTS, Half-Life 2 didn't invent the FPS, Just Cause 2 didn't invent the sandbox game, Mario 64 didn't invent the 3D platformer, Shadow of the Colossus didn't invent the 3D platformer/action game, and I really could probably sit here listing games all day but the point is that these games did things which had never been done before and had gameplay that completely changed how the genres were viewed or played without actually establishing a new genre.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Leigh

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

There's a lot more to gameplay than a control scheme, and you're playing the wrong games if you think there isn't enough new stuff being done these days.

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But how new? New as in genre-establishing? Or just tacking on using a shovel in a platformer game? :)

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You don't have to establish a completely new genre to do things that haven't been done before. Portal didn't invent the first person puzzle game. The original StarCraft didn't invent the RTS, Half-Life 2 didn't invent the FPS, Just Cause 2 didn't invent the sandbox game, Mario 64 didn't invent the 3D platformer, Shadow of the Colossus didn't invent the 3D platformer/action game, and I really could probably sit here listing games all day but the point is that these games did things which had never been done before and had gameplay that completely changed how the genres were viewed or played without actually establishing a new genre.

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I understand what you're inferring. But I think we can safely assume that we are both just motivated by different forces as a baseline? Over the past couple of years, and despite having played video games all my life, I've realised that I'm probably not a 'Gamer'. Haha. =) That's probably the reason that I have completed 5% of my game collection! =P I guess there is a reason that when I replay Final Fantasy these days - I do it with cheat modes that stop random encounters and max level everyone from the start! =P

To be fair, I probably would have not played Portal 2 and enjoyed it so immensely if it wasn't for the story/character/humour involved. Gameplay was still rockin', though.