Gun users=Magic users?

I've noticed this with two characters in the Final Fantasy series and that's with Vincent Valentine in FFVII and Sazh in FFXIII. I've noticed that when came down to it they had some of the highest magic stats in game but their strength was either average or just very low in the case of Vincent. I wondered why this is? I mean Laguna Loire from FFVIII is also a gun user but he has a higher strength stat than magic stat an I can say he might be an exception to the rule as well as Squall and Seifer which is weird considering their weapons are Gunblades...so best of both worlds? Ha, well I could think of some other gun users in the FF series but I simply don't know any other. So guys think this is true? I personally think I'd do the best as a physical attacker with a bayonet at the end of his rifle so I can rifleman/dragoon style attacks. I like magic but very complex. But if I had to think of why this is I think the guns on magic users would be to make up for their low strength with a set weapon damage with guns. But thoughts?

The reason you see parallels is largely due to guns just being "the great equalizer" I mean anyone can use a handgun or rifle, whereas using a melee weapon effectively requires strength, endurance, and above average physical ability if you want to be a real threat. I mean what does Dwayne Johnson need with a pistol if he can pick you up and toss you like a rag doll? On the other hand, wimpy old Mr. Average could easily beat Dwayne Johnson if he had a gun and just shot him.

In terms of actual gun users in the FF world. Vincent is physically weak when not in monster mode but considering he transforms into a monster and has an occult design, I feel it makes sense he's better with magic. On the other hand, Barret does use guns and he's built like a brick house and below average on magic use.

Laguna and Irvine are both pretty great fighters who both use guns, Gunblades don't really count in VIII because they're not real guns and more like Vibro-Blades. They can't actually shoot bullets.

Gunner and Gun Mage are two really broken classes in X-2 when used right. Guns work like their real world counterparts in FFTactics franchise where they allow even frail classes to take down armored knights with ease. I think the Gunner class had to be retooled several times in XI.

Sahz may not have as high of strength as other characters but his basic weapon works like a shotgun and does multi-hit damage which when added up, makes him a better choice for Commando roles than Lightning or Snow.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

The reason you see parallels is largely due to guns just being "the great equalizer" I mean anyone can use a handgun or rifle, whereas using a melee weapon effectively requires strength, endurance, and above average physical ability if you want to be a real threat. I mean what does Dwayne Johnson need with a pistol if he can pick you up and toss you like a rag doll? On the other hand, wimpy old Mr. Average could easily beat Dwayne Johnson if he had a gun and just shot him.

In terms of actual gun users in the FF world. Vincent is physically weak when not in monster mode but considering he transforms into a monster and has an occult design, I feel it makes sense he's better with magic. On the other hand, Barret does use guns and he's built like a brick house and below average on magic use.

Laguna and Irvine are both pretty great fighters who both use guns, Gunblades don't really count in VIII because they're not real guns and more like Vibro-Blades. They can't actually shoot bullets.

Gunner and Gun Mage are two really broken classes in X-2 when used right. Guns work like their real world counterparts in FFTactics franchise where they allow even frail classes to take down armored knights with ease. I think the Gunner class had to be retooled several times in XI.

Sahz may not have as high of strength as other characters but his basic weapon works like a shotgun and does multi-hit damage which when added up, makes him a better choice for Commando roles than Lightning or Snow.

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How so? Tell about these Gun Mage and Gunner jobs. I know Barrett's stronger than Vincent physically but then there's Vincent's damage overflow glitch which makes Death Penalty a OHK weapon, even on the superbosses and then there's Barret's missing score AP overflow glitch that can rival DP. So I can see your point a bit on Vincent.

Though physically they maybe a threat. But I think the guy with a gun in his hand is a far bigger threat if he started blasting with magic enhanced bullets.

In XII Balthier is most associated w/ Guns, yet he doesn't have great magic stats. On the other hand, he's also the slowest @ using the gun, which doesn't make him a great shooter.

But it is recommended to give Penelo guns, as she's the physically weakest of the crew, has a good speed w/ guns, & is a boss mage. Plus she has this whole Annie Oakley vibe when she's using one.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Angus

In XII Balthier is most associated w/ Guns, yet he doesn't have great magic stats. On the other hand, he's also the slowest @ using the gun, which doesn't make him a great shooter.

But it is recommended to give Penelo guns, as she's the physically weakest of the crew, has a good speed w/ guns, & is a boss mage. Plus she has this whole Annie Oakley vibe when she's using one.

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Ah I see, Is Balthier a heavy set slash hard hitter?

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Originally Posted by Lazerface

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Originally Posted by Colonel Angus

In XII Balthier is most associated w/ Guns, yet he doesn't have great magic stats. On the other hand, he's also the slowest @ using the gun, which doesn't make him a great shooter.

But it is recommended to give Penelo guns, as she's the physically weakest of the crew, has a good speed w/ guns, & is a boss mage. Plus she has this whole Annie Oakley vibe when she's using one.

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Ah I see, Is Balthier a heavy set slash hard hitter?

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He's kind of an in-betweener type. I think he had all around decent stats, but if I remember correctly, he has the lowest magic stat.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

The reason you see parallels is largely due to guns just being "the great equalizer" I mean anyone can use a handgun or rifle, whereas using a melee weapon effectively requires strength, endurance, and above average physical ability if you want to be a real threat. I mean what does Dwayne Johnson need with a pistol if he can pick you up and toss you like a rag doll? On the other hand, wimpy old Mr. Average could easily beat Dwayne Johnson if he had a gun and just shot him.

In terms of actual gun users in the FF world. Vincent is physically weak when not in monster mode but considering he transforms into a monster and has an occult design, I feel it makes sense he's better with magic. On the other hand, Barret does use guns and he's built like a brick house and below average on magic use.

Laguna and Irvine are both pretty great fighters who both use guns, Gunblades don't really count in VIII because they're not real guns and more like Vibro-Blades. They can't actually shoot bullets.

Gunner and Gun Mage are two really broken classes in X-2 when used right. Guns work like their real world counterparts in FFTactics franchise where they allow even frail classes to take down armored knights with ease. I think the Gunner class had to be retooled several times in XI.

Sahz may not have as high of strength as other characters but his basic weapon works like a shotgun and does multi-hit damage which when added up, makes him a better choice for Commando roles than Lightning or Snow.

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There is no gunner in FFXI, but there is ranger. They can use bows, crossbows and guns (and axes for when you want to preserve ammo cause that trout is mad expensive). They have never been anywhere near decent at magic. With the exception of 3 or so jobs (paladin, dark knight, rune knight (and ninja if you want to count ninjutsu although that functions differently from normal magic)), you're either good at magic, or completely useless at magic. You can multiclass but then the magic power comes solely from your support job.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

The reason you see parallels is largely due to guns just being "the great equalizer" I mean anyone can use a handgun or rifle, whereas using a melee weapon effectively requires strength, endurance, and above average physical ability if you want to be a real threat. I mean what does Dwayne Johnson need with a pistol if he can pick you up and toss you like a rag doll? On the other hand, wimpy old Mr. Average could easily beat Dwayne Johnson if he had a gun and just shot him.

In terms of actual gun users in the FF world. Vincent is physically weak when not in monster mode but considering he transforms into a monster and has an occult design, I feel it makes sense he's better with magic. On the other hand, Barret does use guns and he's built like a brick house and below average on magic use.

Laguna and Irvine are both pretty great fighters who both use guns, Gunblades don't really count in VIII because they're not real guns and more like Vibro-Blades. They can't actually shoot bullets.

Gunner and Gun Mage are two really broken classes in X-2 when used right. Guns work like their real world counterparts in FFTactics franchise where they allow even frail classes to take down armored knights with ease. I think the Gunner class had to be retooled several times in XI.

Sahz may not have as high of strength as other characters but his basic weapon works like a shotgun and does multi-hit damage which when added up, makes him a better choice for Commando roles than Lightning or Snow.

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There is no gunner in FFXI, but there is ranger. They can use bows, crossbows and guns (and axes for when you want to preserve ammo cause that trout is mad expensive). They have never been anywhere near decent at magic. With the exception of 3 or so jobs (paladin, dark knight, rune knight (and ninja if you want to count ninjutsu although that functions differently from normal magic)), you're either good at magic, or completely useless at magic. You can multiclass but then the magic power comes solely from your support job.

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Do the Rangers have good strength?

They have average strength. More than a white mage, less than a warrior. Ranged weapons get damage from agility, which they have a lot more of. Strength isn't the thing that affects damage the most anyway. Weapon skill levels matter a lot more.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Angus

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Originally Posted by Lazerface

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Originally Posted by Colonel Angus

In XII Balthier is most associated w/ Guns, yet he doesn't have great magic stats. On the other hand, he's also the slowest @ using the gun, which doesn't make him a great shooter.

But it is recommended to give Penelo guns, as she's the physically weakest of the crew, has a good speed w/ guns, & is a boss mage. Plus she has this whole Annie Oakley vibe when she's using one.

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Ah I see, Is Balthier a heavy set slash hard hitter?

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He's kind of an in-betweener type. I think he had all around decent stats, but if I remember correctly, he has the lowest magic stat.

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Balthier has low magic and mp growth with I think Basch (the game's obvious melee character) having slightly lower. Balthier has the third highest strength and HP growth behind Vaan and Basch but scores the highest speed stat, making weapons like daggers and Ninja blades better for him. In Revenant Wings, he has decent attack power and high defense from his armor types. His range is really good but frankly Kytes, the game's actual blackmage is a better Range Unit due to exploiting elemental properties and having AoE abilities whereas Balthier is basically comparable to Vaan or Basch just a ranged fighter. In Tactics: WotL. Balthier's stats are similar to his XII incarnation when using his default Sky Pirate job. The job is an odd mix of Thief, Machinist, and Knight giving it high speed and good strength and HP growth.

Guns, in all of the Ivalice titles, work the same with sporting low attack power but ignoring defense making them pretty comparable to most melee weapons beyong high level mystical weapons like Excalibur and the Zodiac Spear. There are magic guns that fire spells but their power is in proportion to the wielders MAG stat making them a bit underpowered in the hands of say... Balthier and they also suffer from some of the short comings of the gun weapons themselves like needing a direct line of sight in order to hit. The magic guns also had an odd critical hit elements where the spell would do critical damage by summoning tier 3 versions of the spells they cast.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

There is no gunner in FFXI, but there is ranger. They can use bows, crossbows and guns (and axes for when you want to preserve ammo cause that trout is mad expensive). They have never been anywhere near decent at magic. With the exception of 3 or so jobs (paladin, dark knight, rune knight (and ninja if you want to count ninjutsu although that functions differently from normal magic)), you're either good at magic, or completely useless at magic. You can multiclass but then the magic power comes solely from your support job.

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Whoops, my bad. I knew guns existed in XI, I just forgot there wasn't an actual job that specializes in them.

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If you're looking for an RPG series that really justifies guns as a weapon to be reckoned with, I would play Wild ARMS. The first game treats guns as dangerous mythical weapons, the second game involves the main character using a rifle/bayonetta as his default weapon which works as a both a sword for regualr combat and as a gun for special skills.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Colonel Angus

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Originally Posted by Lazerface

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Originally Posted by Colonel Angus

In XII Balthier is most associated w/ Guns, yet he doesn't have great magic stats. On the other hand, he's also the slowest @ using the gun, which doesn't make him a great shooter.

But it is recommended to give Penelo guns, as she's the physically weakest of the crew, has a good speed w/ guns, & is a boss mage. Plus she has this whole Annie Oakley vibe when she's using one.

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Ah I see, Is Balthier a heavy set slash hard hitter?

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He's kind of an in-betweener type. I think he had all around decent stats, but if I remember correctly, he has the lowest magic stat.

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Balthier has low magic and mp growth with I think Basch (the game's obvious melee character) having slightly lower. Balthier has the third highest strength and HP growth behind Vaan and Basch but scores the highest speed stat, making weapons like daggers and Ninja blades better for him. In Revenant Wings, he has decent attack power and high defense from his armor types. His range is really good but frankly Kytes, the game's actual blackmage is a better Range Unit due to exploiting elemental properties and having AoE abilities whereas Balthier is basically comparable to Vaan or Basch just a ranged fighter. In Tactics: WotL. Balthier's stats are similar to his XII incarnation when using his default Sky Pirate job. The job is an odd mix of Thief, Machinist, and Knight giving it high speed and good strength and HP growth.

Guns, in all of the Ivalice titles, work the same with sporting low attack power but ignoring defense making them pretty comparable to most melee weapons beyong high level mystical weapons like Excalibur and the Zodiac Spear. There are magic guns that fire spells but their power is in proportion to the wielders MAG stat making them a bit underpowered in the hands of say... Balthier and they also suffer from some of the short comings of the gun weapons themselves like needing a direct line of sight in order to hit. The magic guns also had an odd critical hit elements where the spell would do critical damage by summoning tier 3 versions of the spells they cast.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

There is no gunner in FFXI, but there is ranger. They can use bows, crossbows and guns (and axes for when you want to preserve ammo cause that trout is mad expensive). They have never been anywhere near decent at magic. With the exception of 3 or so jobs (paladin, dark knight, rune knight (and ninja if you want to count ninjutsu although that functions differently from normal magic)), you're either good at magic, or completely useless at magic. You can multiclass but then the magic power comes solely from your support job.

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Whoops, my bad. I knew guns existed in XI, I just forgot there wasn't an actual job that specializes in them.

**************************************************************************************************** ***
If you're looking for an RPG series that really justifies guns as a weapon to be reckoned with, I would play Wild ARMS. The first game treats guns as dangerous mythical weapons, the second game involves the main character using a rifle/bayonetta as his default weapon which works as a both a sword for regualr combat and as a gun for special skills.

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Special skills? Tell about these special skills.

Mostly using the gun to fire different types of rounds. One of the other characters gets more heavy duty guns and rocket launchers but they are classified as guns. Both gun skills can be upgraded by increasing damage output and ammo. It's a pretty sweet if under-appreciated cult series.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Mostly using the gun to fire different types of rounds. One of the other characters gets more heavy duty guns and rocket launchers but they are classified as guns. Both gun skills can be upgraded by increasing damage output and ammo. It's a pretty sweet if under-appreciated cult series.

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You know what, I'm actually going to get the Wild Arms series sense you got me interested in it. I think I should start by getting Alter Code F.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

They have average strength. More than a white mage, less than a warrior. Ranged weapons get damage from agility, which they have a lot more of. Strength isn't the thing that affects damage the most anyway. Weapon skill levels matter a lot more.

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Actually, they still get damage from Strength. Ranged accuracy derives from Agility, opposed to from Dexterity for melee.

Though I'd say a lot of ranged weapon skills have high AGI mods, which sort of counts.

Closest thing to a gunner class in XI are Corsairs, whose Ranged weapons are almost exclusively guns. Elemental shots are magic based, iirc.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Quick_Draw

tl;dr Quick Draw is affected by Staves/Obis/MAB, QED re magic gunners in XI

you're right. i don't know what i was thinking

you were thinking about rangers

It'd be a good idea if they added Bayonets as weapon in FFXV or even FFXVI to be attached on rifles for use. Then I could say the bayonet would require the strength stat to be used properly.

The only time I think that would be an interesting or useful mechanic would be in an action-RPG where you controlled someone who used a rifle.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

The only time I think that would be an interesting or useful mechanic would be in an action-RPG where you controlled someone who used a rifle.

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Yeah, true. That's why I hope they implement it in FFXV or FFXVI. I'd even say my idea of a good character for myself if I were a job class would be rifleman/dragoon with a bayonet. I think magic would be good but depending on strength stats and abilities a character has there's a possibility strength might succeed magic. Especially if that character were a Z fighter or Sabin with Bum rush or even Tifa with Final Heaven. But I wouldn't mind a bayonet enchanted like spellblade.