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I noticed lately that writers who have received great praise for their depiction of women (GRRM, Joss Whedon, etc.) have been receiving criticism for... their depiction of women. So, I'm curious what people's opinions on what a well written female character looks like and what other writers, regardless of their gender, always gets wrong when writing for them. Hell, I'll start:
Less women whose motivation involves dick, pl0x. kthx.
The opposite of Bella Swan, I guess.
Too many writers seem to think that "strong female character" is just a synonym for "ass-kicking babe". They really need to stop. Joss Whedon is quite guilty of this sometimes.
If a character's sex is either her defining characteristic, or her sole contribution to the story, then the writer's also doing it wrong.
Basically what BigD said. What's needed just a good variety in motivation, and also ability to do what's required to get there.
Now I'm not an authority on the subject, but I feel that there is pretty good variation in game of thrones. There are several womens in positions of reasonably great power, I don't think any of them are in it to "get the guy". If a guy's involved, it's usually just a means to get to their goals.
a strong independent woman who don't need no man
I often think you should write a male character and then just make the character female (and vice versa). I don't really have an ideal female character because characters should be diverse.
True that. I've seen Clarice Starling from Silence of the Lambs cited as a strong character before because of all she does in the movie without needing to kick ass. I can agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D
My closing statement was more directed at Moffat than anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Oh, him. Yeah.
A character that is not one dimensional.
One that can show a strong side of her but also one that shows some vulnerability too. One that can be intelligent, quick to learn and serious but at the same time but can also have a laugh and joke when the time calls for it.
Someone like Ripley from the Alien films is a good example.
This! I wish that we could see strong female characters that were multi-faceted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D
I know that ToriJ started this thread based on a conversation we had yesterday. I said to him that I wish that more female villains had motives that weren't love related. It seems a lot of female villains became so because of love turned sour. Which is really boring.
But mostly, what Bubba said. I like characters that reflect that people are both good and bad, and someone can be shy and outgoing, funny and serious, nice and mean, selfish and selfless, etc all in one. People aren't one-dimensional, and it's better to have characters that aren't either. I prefer all characters to be written this way, but I do find that female characters fit much more into archetypes than male characters do.
I have no singular ideal female character because it depends on the show. I like a lot of fictional women and all for different reasons.
The Boss of Metal Gear Solid 3 is beloved and often hailed as one of the best females in gaming.
So is Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic II.
These two have absolutely nothing in common apart from the fact they can kick ass in a fight.
Yet they're both quite good and well-written. (incidentally they are also example of female "villains" who's motives have nothing to do with love)
Yet I can also love a female who's character is strongly defined by a man. This could describe anyone from Four Murasame (of Zeta Gundam fame, a series which I'm re-watching now. You should all go watch it too) to Daenerys Targaryen. (although as much as I like Dany, the best women in ASOIAF is Brienne and it's not even a competition)
It's all in the presentation. There are good examples and bad examples of everything.
A complex, multi-faceted person whose motivations and actions are comprehensible. Anything beyond that is up to the writer's creativity.
The same goes for male characters.
I like the ass kicking babes. I dunno, I grew up with them and I grew up with Joss Whedon's females and I think they're great. My opinion. More ass kicking babes with a good backstory though. I'll never get tired of characters like Buffy, Echo, Sarah Walker et al.... But then Agent Carter is a damn good female character - yes she can kick some butt but she's also really smart and uses that to her advantage more. Just motivated girls who can do it all. Also, in Joss's defence, his shows are action adventures. Of course his ladies are going to be pretty bad ass and kicking all ass to class. Anya wasn't exactly kick ass but I found her really well rounded - as with Fred (pre death) and Cordy.
I think Grey's Anatomy has some brilliant women. Bailey, Meredith, Cristina.... they're all women with great and differing motivations and they are well rounded, and great representations.
I love it when a writer isn't afraid to show a woman being vulnerable too, I have this theory that being a 'strong woman' isn't always about shouting the loudest and hitting the hardest, sometimes a strong woman is someone in the background. I love the scale of emotions that Shonda Rhimes brings to the table with her characters. Lexie and Sloan's romance arc was compelling because Lexie was always so vulnerable - and apologetically so. A writer who is not afraid to realise that vulnerable does not equal weak.
OH. Genuine female friendships, that aren't just a plot device - and they don't just talk about boys or other girls or bitch about each other. Just real smurfing friendships where they talk about dumb trout and support each other and are nice to each other.
Oh, I have no problem with ass-kicking babes. I like most of them. I'd just like there to be more female characters that are portrayed in such a way to show one doesn't need to be ass-kicking to be strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Fury
I wish every character could be a blank slate regardless of their gender, race, religion, etc.
I think it has to be incredibly frustrating for people to write characters for their media that aren't white males, because white males are the closest thing to a blank canvas that you have to work with when it comes to character development.
Want a character that's simply there to be a shallow character with one or two main aspects that go largely unexplained? Some examples; Just an unstoppable force? Just a bad person? Just a good person? Just an attractive person? Just an ugly person? Just a sex object? A horrible bigot?
Unless you plan to add more depth, the safe bet is to make it a white male character. It's the safest way to ensure that your character will be viewed as an individual person for their own merits, or lack of merits, and not as something larger.
Every other character brings the baggage of representing groups with it, and by proxy, the writer's view on that group as a whole.
That makes it hard to get creative. "If I go this direction with the character, I may offend this group, but if I go that directions I might offend that group instead." :ohdear:
I understand a better representation of each group is important, and that people are tired of what race/sex/religion they identify with always falling into the typical, tired tropes that paint them in a shade they find hurtful. I just also think that's led to a lot of people seeing a deeper meaning to a character or a poor representation of a group of people, when all the writer is trying to do is create a character to tell a story.
In my media I like strong, confident ladies, and I like broken, hopeless ladies. I like inspiring intelligent black leaders and I like mindless, heartless, cruel black thugs. I like religious figures to lift others to a higher state of humanity by using their scripture to teach, and I like religious figures who scheme, back-stab, and manipulate to use their position in a grab for power. I like everything in between as well. That is because I like characters.
What I want out of my female characters is for them to be characters. Some one dimensional, some deep and inspiring. Sometimes that might be Ripley from Aliens, sometimes it might be a Bond girl like Fatima Blush. What I really want is for them to be liked or disliked for who they are without carrying the baggage of representing a larger group.
:shrug:
I feel like one of the few people who... don't really care if a character is male or female. Sure, I like a little eyecandy from time to time, and I do get a little bit uncomfortable when it comes to same-gender couples in video games, but that's just something I have to get used to. Other than that, I judge characters on their motivations, convictions, personality, etc etc. That's why Princess Garnet Til Alexandros XVII is one of my, if not THE, favorite characters ever, female or no. The others being Sylvannas Windrunner, Arthas Menethil, Minato Arisato, and Fuuka Yamagishi.
Now, having said that, if the topic were to be what I find ATTRACTIVE in a female character, I'd be extremely opinionated. It would be more women like FFXIII's Lightning, RWBY's Yang, or... Well, Sylvannas Windrunner.
Or they over-analyze your work so much they accuse you of being a misogynist homophobe.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkythesharkdogg
Not. Even. Kidding.
But that's just an extremist example I wanted to share for its sheer WTFness.
I can think of some incidents in my own writing where if I had real TV time I would probably offend the very groups you're talking about depending how nitpicky they are. "Why is it the woman is the one hesitant to jump over the building?" She's afraid of heights... "Why is it the woman is raped by zombies!? What the smurf is wrong with you? Do you hate women or something?" The zombies are being controlled by a little girl "You sick bastard!" Okay, that didn't really help my case any.
That wouldn't stop me, though.
I would say a good female character has to be able to carry the weight of the role on her shoulders well. Especially if she is the main character. It has to be believable that she is capable of not just holding her own in a fight (if need be), but also capable of being more than a girl who can kick your ass. She has to be more than one dimensional, she has to be smart and have a vulnerable side. Being pretty is not a bad thing, but there's more to a pretty face than you see.
Lara Croft from the 2013 Tomb Raider game is a good example.
I can't really peg down an answer. I love female characters and I love all kinds of female characters. It depends on the game, their history and story, and a bunch of other things.
For example, I really love Totori from the Atelier Arland series. I really love Fran from Final Fantasy XII. I would not like Fran at all if she was in the same game as Totori. I think overall I prefer the sweeter, nicer types, but not always