Me and Wolf once argued about this and I recently got into this mood because of some revelations that happened.
Here's the thing.
I came away from my one and only playthrough of FFXIII thinking it was a decent enough game. Flawed yes but okay overall. Then I learned that everything I was told was wrong. Everything Cid said was bulltrout. Humans and fal'cie were NOT made by the same being. There is not just one God. There is in fact a whole cosmology that the game never properly eludes to. In fact, the game never even so much as mentions the name "Etro" EVEN THOUGH SHE'S THE ONE WHO SAVED EVERYONE IN THE ENDING.
So, after being told all that, I ended up despising FFXIII because I felt like a fool. I thought I knew things but it was all just misinformation and not explained and I didn't know anything.
Then more recently I learned that NO, what I was told by people was not correct. See, Lindzei DID make people. He did it with Etro's blood. Which means Cid wasn't lying.
But guess what?
I don't blame those people who tried to help me. I blame Square Enix.
For those not in the know, this guy is reading an official video made by Square to explain the cosmology of FFXIII. This is what the good people of another forum linked me to in order to help me understand all those years ago.
Only...notice something? Notice how the tell-all video doesn't say a goddam thing about Lindzei using Etro's blood? You will only find that information in a book. Yes, the tell-all video meant to...tell all omits a very relevant detail that left me and others confused for years.
Because I thought Cid was right until people told me he was wrong. But then I learned they were wrong because the video Square posted was wrong. But then i learned about the book that gives details that explain Cid was right which means I was wrong to think all those people were right. Which means I was wrong to criticize FFXIII's writing only i was right to criticize the writing but for the wrong reasons and....
Now...with that out of the way.
FFXIII's plot might be a disaster but so is FFVIII's. The difference here lies in the fact FFXIII at least gave some love to its playable cast. There are entire sub plots and arcs devoted to developing them! Amazing and revolutionary, I know. Giving Hope and Snow their little vendetta and helping them both grow was truly inspired and something the FFVIII writer never could have.... Wait, Nojima wrote FFVII and FFX.... I guess he could have thought of it but he just didn't bother. I guess I can't blame them. I mean, what can you do with Zell and Irvine? They just smurfing suck plain and simple.
FFXIII honestly had a really well-done party while FFVIII has by far the worst playable cast in the series. We're talking NES levels of personality. Just because they say more doesn't mean they were actually saying anything. I think it's very telling that Quistis will get added dialogue at certain moments that develop her character bu I usually use Selphie and she never says crap.It's like Nojima was saying "this character is kinda important and these others....not so much."
So i stack them up as this:
FFXIII has a better cast.
They both have awful plots.
FFXIII has a far better battle system with unique characters. In fact, let me go off on another tangent here.
Who the smurf thought it was a good idea to introduce level scaling IN THE ONE GAME WHERE LEVELS DON'T MATTER? I mean, did they just have two different teams developing the combat? Junction and Level Scaling DO NOT WORK TOGETHER. If you put "heroes at level 50 so enemies will now be level 50" in literally any other game in the series, it might be interesting. But here, in the glorious travesty that is FFVIII, it doesn't matter because stats are determined by Junctions more than levels. Those enemies will be Level 10 in response to your Level 10 party....only you have Level 100 stats because of Junctions. This game actively encourages you NOT to work at anything. Just say as low level as possible while slapping on 100 Curagas to HP from Tents and congrats, you have beaten the game.
How do you...how do you do this??? How do you introduce two completely incompatible systems to your gameplay mechanics?
Music is...whatever, both are good.
And that is my piece. These two are by far the worst numbered entries in the series. But now you must choose.
05-19-2015, 09:57 AM
Ayen
Disagree, disagree, disagree, disagree, disagree. Did I mention I disagree?
FFVIII cast was fine. I don't mind if more focus was on a couple of characters than the whole cast. The support cast played their roles fine. Not every game is going to be able to develop every single character. Not every game can be VI.
No, I don't find a single character in VIII annoying. Not as annoying as Snow was. Snow had me wanting to tear my ears off my head and throw them into a garbage disposer. Maybe I'd like him more if he didn't have a voice, or maybe I'd like him more if their voice direction for that game didn't suck monkey dick. X was decent for their first VA filled game, and XII showed they were getting better, and then they somehow botched a decent cast in XIII. Makes no sense.
I'm not going to sit here and pretend that the story made sense, but VIII was fun and memorable. FFXIII was boring as hell and that's the worst thing a video game can do IMO. I felt no drive to play it any further than I did and I took that thing back to Blockbuster the day after I rented it, and that's something I can't say for any other game I've ever played. Period.
05-19-2015, 10:05 AM
Fynn
To be fair, the level scaling was implement precisely so you would have to find other ways to be better than enemies than simple grinding. I quite liked that, and unless you're a serious min-maxer, there really is no need to keep your level as low as you can.
Sorry, this is no contest for me. FFVIII was a really good game, while XIII was a pretentious mess. Sure, FFVIII had glaring plot holes you could fly a jumbo jet through, but the character interactions in XIII you mention with such fondness seem to be written by someone who was basically just told how human interactions worked but had never experienced that miraculous phenomenon themself. And I like Snow and Hope back when their names were Shinjiro and Ken.
Toriyama needs to smurfing stop making games. Seriously.
05-19-2015, 10:26 AM
Karifean
FFVIII's cast is fine. Sure, Squall and Rinoa and maybe Quistis are the only characters I actually care for story-wise, but I felt the other characters were more relevant than just "being there", they just didn't influence the main plot much. They still had defined personalities and I liked how it was done.
I feel similarly about FFXIII's cast, but in that game there *is* focus laid on all the characters even during the main plot. That's a good or a bad thing depending on if you like the cast or not, I'm rather indifferent towards it. I also never cared that much about XIII's mythology. I do usually like stories that don't tell you everything outright but expect you to invest in the story and find your own personal interpretation/understanding of its deeper parts... but I didn't have that kind of motivation for XIII.
It's one of the reasons I liked the R=U theory back when it was new, because I find the prospect of an entire extra layer to a story that you can just miss if you're not paying attention and putting in the effort to find it yourself very interesting.
Gameplay-wise both games were pretty fun. I love the Junction system because you can have so much random fun with it, and Triple Triad is the god of FF minigames. The Crystarium was... okay I guess. I liked how even with only six classes just about every character had a noticeably different variant of each class, and the whole Paradigm System was awesome. It had its flaws, but it made the game very enjoyable to play through.
And the soundtrack? It goes without saying that both OSTs are wonderful, but FF VIII in particular has the best soundtrack out of any FF, and is up there as one of the best soundtracks out of anything.
In my eyes Final Fantasy VIII was a really great game, while Final Fantasy XIII was a good, enjoyable game. It's the worst in the series for sure, with a story that isn't memorable beyond a few standout points, but I don't dislike it.
05-19-2015, 05:27 PM
Pumpkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karifean
In my eyes Final Fantasy VIII was a really great game, while Final Fantasy XIII was a good, enjoyable game.
This sums up my opinion. Final Fantasy VIII is my third favourite game ever, I love the protagonist, the love story, the story in general, the world is one of my favourites in the series, the gameplay was fine, and overall I had a lot of fun with it.
I like XIII fine, but not compared to most games in the series. I love the Paradigm system and I like the world and about half the cast. The story had potential but wasn't told in a good way
05-19-2015, 11:25 PM
Forsaken Lover
Way too much FFVIII love going on in this thread. Way too much.
It's a bad game and you should feel bad. There are objective, unarguable reasons why it is a bad game too. The combat system is broken to hell, characters have even less stat differentiation than in FFVII,there are entire subplots that come up out of nowhere and then go absolutely nowhere... I mean, smurf, if you aren't going to develop any of your playable characters or give them any story relevance, at least give them some unique gameplay! Everyone is the goddam same.
The game is a mess of bad ideas C.led together to make one Supremely Bad Game.
05-20-2015, 12:46 AM
Ayen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Way too much FFVIII love going on in this thread. Way too much.
It's a bad game and you should feel bad. There are objective, unarguable reasons why it is a bad game too. The combat system is broken to hell, characters have even less stat differentiation than in FFVII,there are entire subplots that come up out of nowhere and then go absolutely nowhere... I mean, smurf, if you aren't going to develop any of your playable characters or give them any story relevance, at least give them some unique gameplay! Everyone is the goddam same.
The game is a mess of bad ideas C.led together to make one Supremely Bad Game.
There's no such thing as objectivity in video games, I'm sorry to be the one to tell you. Telltale games can be glitchy as all hell and some times down right broken and they still receive critical acclaim.
Try again.
05-20-2015, 05:06 AM
Fynn
According to postmodern thought, there is no such thing as objectivity. You're pretty bad at this. First Silent Hill 3, now this.
This just won't do. I feel someone needs an attitude adjustment.
No, I do believe FFXIII is objectively the worst and the rest of you are simply suffering from Stockholm Syndrome from playing it too long. :wcanoe:
Both games have troutty plots, but I felt that the exploration of Squall's story trumps the game's poor plot and was handled far better than the nonsense of XIII's cast. I'll take watching Squall grow from a distant aloof asshole into a less aloof but more honest asshole over Lightning's fits of Rage and Snow and Hope aping the better written Shinji/Ken story from Persona 3. At least P3 had the guts to go there whereas SE's track record made it obvious it would sort itself out.
Laguna and his cronies are far more charming than all of XIII's cast combined. Sure VIII has a bizarre Gainax inspired ending that set off a thousand weird fan theories, but that's better than XIII's Deus ex Machina tripe, that gets explained by forking over more money for the sequels and Ultimanias. VIII's plot failed, but at least it tried to be something amazing. XIII's problematic plot is the result of someone who was full of themselves and wrote it purposely for sequels and extra merchandise being required to actually understand it all. The game has even more plot holes than VIII did and its final ending after three games is still ridiculous and apes the better Chrono Cross.
VIII also just had better gameplay, I'll take broken game mechanics with the option to explore and see the world over the RPG equivalent of a rail shooter with a combat system that does more to remove the player from the actual experience of playing the game than actual immersion. I can at least explore Balamb and Dollet as opposed to being trapped seeing the highlight of Palumporom and Nautilus. VIII didn't need to have a smurfing sequel made to remember what genre the series is.
I'll take Laguna's lost love and renewed life choices after the war over Fang and Vanille whining about being plot devices. I'll take Zell fighting with Seifer and letting his hotheadedness get the party in trouble over Snow using his catchphrase of "I'm the hero" for 20 hours. I'll take Irvine choking at his assassination attempt on Edea which hints to the second most bizarre and BS plot twist in FF history; over Sahz choking on his attempted suicide that very few people believed would happen and was already spoiled by trailers and box artwork showing him in Pulse. I'll take Rinoa's whiny "damsel in distress" role over Hope's muddled and childish hatred that Ken Amada performed so much better. At least interesting things actually happen to Rinoa, keeping her relevant as opposed to wishing Hope would shut his damn mouth for five minutes about avenging his mother, and actually do something about it. Lightning and her story is basically the same as Squall's, except lacking the internal monologue insight and trading Squall's apathy (used for great comic relief) for Lightning trying so hard to use every male action star trope to hide the fact she's a woman. She has so many anger issues she needs to dress in raven power armor and battle Old Snake while screaming RAAAAGGGGEEEE!!! every 15 seconds for all the meaningful character development she got in the first game. At least Edea and Seifer are interesting antagonist, unlike Cid, whose development comes about five minutes before the plot removes him from any relevancy. Edea was mysterious and interesting, making you wish to learn more about her; not like the Pope dude, who wore "I'm evil" so hard he might as well had sported an old twirly mustache and tied Serah to some train tracks, so Cocoon could run her over.
Seriously, for whatever VIII's cast lacked, at least it wasn't filled with poor shallow characterization and disappointing conclusions that were scared of actually doing something drastic and unexpected. VIII's plot is troutty but I feel it is at least interesting to watch unfold, if only because it's so bizarre. XIII's plot at the end of the day is just an excuse to watch six shallow characters angst for 30+ hours so the story gods can resolve it nice and neat until the second shows up to retcon everything that happened in the game before.
VIII may not be the best FF entry, but at least it tried to be. XIII tried to be its own franchise and it screwed up because it lacked any strong foundation to give a smurf. :wcanoe:
05-20-2015, 06:11 AM
Forsaken Lover
If you write a book full of typos, I feel it's perfectly within my right to say it's objectively bad. There's no excuse for it.
The same is true for a game with broken gameplay. It's just a fact beyond dispute, like the fact gravity exists or we need oxygen to survive.
05-20-2015, 06:18 AM
Forsaken Lover
persona 3 is that dating sim right
sorry wolf but this conversation is about rpgs.
(SPOILER)Or maybe it was Persona 4 that was the dating sim. Either way.
And Squall is just one character. Unless he's the best written protagonist ever, he cannot salvage an entire playable cast of unnecessary and unlikable assholes. I have never seen a worse cast in a JRPG with the exception of Star Ocean 3. Oh and Squall is decidedly NOT the best written protagonist ever so he does not save his game.
Way too much FFVIII love going on in this thread. Way too much.
It's a bad game and you should feel bad.
I keep wanting to jump into this thread, but I really don't have the time nor motivation to type enough to do the topic justice. But this can be my tl;dr version.
05-20-2015, 06:29 AM
Ayen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
If you write a book full of typos, I feel it's perfectly within my right to say it's objectively bad. There's no excuse for it.
The same is true for a game with broken gameplay. It's just a fact beyond dispute, like the fact gravity exists or we need oxygen to survive.
You have the right to say it, but that doesn't make it true. I don't find your comparison that good considering more goes into game design than spelling in a book.
Some of us managed not to abuse the Junction System. Also, anything you say about characters and story are 100% subjective so including them in a list of alleged 'objective unarguable reasons' is flawed. But at this point we're just arguing semantics.
Furthermore, you pitted this game against FFXIII. Not sure what you were expecting...
05-20-2015, 06:34 AM
Fynn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
persona 3 is that dating sim right
sorry wolf but this conversation is about rpgs.
(SPOILER)Or maybe it was Persona 4 that was the dating sim. Either way.
Oh my God
Did you just
You're losing more and more cred with every post, mang
05-20-2015, 06:39 AM
Wolf Kanno
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
persona 3 is that dating sim right
sorry wolf but this conversation is about rpgs.
(SPOILER)Or maybe it was Persona 4 that was the dating sim. Either way.
P3 is more RPG than XIII is. You know character choices the ability to explore towns, likable cast, coherent plot, awesome battle system that actually requires thinking... The irony is that XIII steals a lot of ideas from P3 and fails on every account to understand why it worked in P3.
Quote:
And Squall is just one character. Unless he's the best written protagonist ever, he cannot salvage an entire playable cast of unnecessary and unlikable assholes. I have never seen a worse cast in a JRPG with the exception of Star Ocean 3. Oh and Squall is decidedly NOT the best written protagonist ever so he does not save his game.
He's not the best written main character but I would say he's the best written main character from an FF. I also happen to like VIII's cast, at least they knew how to stay in the background to avoid outstaying their welcome unlike XIII's cast that can best be summed up as:
Lightning: I'M ANGRY! *Punches Snow and gives bad advice to minors*
Snow: I'M THE HERO! I'M GOING TO SAVE SERAH! SERAH WANTS US TO SAVE COCOON! SERAH'S FOCUS WAS TO SAVE COCOON! Oafghff *sound he makes when Lightning punches him in the face, which is almost every damn cutscene the two are featured in together*
Hope: I lost my mommy! I don't know what to do... Snow killed her even though I totally saw him try to save her but I'm an eight year old trapped in a teen body and will rewrite reality in my head to justify all my ANGST! Oh he saved me, he's like a cool big bro...
Sahz: I'm looking for my son, have you seen him? Oh let me act like Eddie Murphy for a few minutes and be all like "Damn Lightning, you crazy gurl!" Now I'm going to kill myself, Psych!
Vanille: HI! My name is Vanille, I'm going to spend the next thirty hours being painfully suspicious until you realize almost everything about me before I reveal it because I only know that subtlety is a word in a dictionary. I'll also be responsible for all of the uncomfortable T&A in this game, just like Rikku did in FFX, so all the pedophiles that play these games will get their money's worth. I caused all the problems in the plot and wish I wasn't always being rescued but I'll keep making the same mistake until I take part in the game's Deus ex Machina that had no foreshadowing whatsoever and then you'll have to feel sad for me just because that's what the writer intended but didn't understand how to do so. Tee-hee.
Fang; I'm going to pop up early and be mysterious and interesting until I join the party and do jack trout for the plot. Oh, I might also be a lesbian. Maybe...
Seriously, when you can explain how these husks of overused tropes and bad dialogue are somehow better than VIII's subdued but knows their place cast of cronies, we can begin having a real debate on this subject.
05-20-2015, 06:48 AM
Fynn
Woof woof woof woof!
05-20-2015, 07:05 AM
Forsaken Lover
okay, to start off with, every FF is full of cliches and overused tropes. That's kinda its thing. FF has never been revolutionary when it comes to writing. I think the only thing that might count is FFVII's depiction of poverty and the working class. I don't think many JRPGs before it had truly dealt with that topic.
Secondly, all you've done is do what I can do with every FFVIII character. Anybody can sum up characters they don't like in that kind of manner.
Irvine: I got assigned to this super important mission even though i always choke when it comes to actually shooting things. People try to write it off as me actually not wanting to shoot Edea because she's like my mom BUT THIS IS NEVER SAID OR HINTED AT ANYWHERE IN THE GAME AND IS JUST AS "CANON" AS SQUALL IS DEAD.
Also after that one mission I fail horribly at I will never be relevant again or develop or anything.
See, simple.
I don't care how poorly you think it's done. Character Development is the only thing that makes a character interesting when you have to deal with them in a 30+ hour game. THEY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!!!! The FFVIII cast don't do trout. They take up space, they waste your time and that is all there is to it. There's no reasonf or Irvine or Zell to be there. Chop them out of the story and what changes? It's like you got an FFII or FFIV guest party member but you're stuck with them for the rest of the game for no reason.
That is a common complaint of JRPGs in general ie. "Why The Hell Are They Even Here" Syndrome. It makes people hate Vaan but at least Vaan had character development. There's no reason for half the FFVIII cast to be there. They don't bring in unique gameplay, they don't have any plot relevance. I don't care if you're okay with them wasting your time, they were wasting MY time. Every moment they spoke, I wanted to shoot all of them. They were all stupid, they wer eall incompetent and they were all IRRELEVANT. They could go home, they could go jump off a cliff, they could do ANYTHING. There is no reason for them to stay in your party.
As badly as FFXIII's plot was handled, at least your entire group being fugitives made it so you didn't suffer from the dreaded why the smurf are you even here question. Everyone from Lightning (who I hate) to Snow (whom I love) had perfect justification for doing what they were doing. That automatically makes them better than the FFVIII cast in my book.
You are supporting FFVIII's cast because, while they were all worthless stereotypes with no development or plot relevance, they "didn't get in your way." You are actively supporting lazy writing because, in your view, one-dimensional characters are superior to poorly done three-dimensional characters. So writers shouldn't even try to do things like character development because at the end of the day, they might still suck.
05-20-2015, 07:13 AM
Fynn
The truth is poor writing and behaviors that resemble nothing a human would do hurt much more than characters who talk too little, because then your mind gets to fill the blanks and it's not quite as jarring.
05-20-2015, 08:25 AM
Psychotic
I definitely think that FFXIII had a better, more-developed cast of protagonists than FFVIII. All of them had development and personalities - you might not like the personalities, but they had them - which is more than you can say for, say, Zell, who just had a gimmick of HOT DOGS IM GONNA FEIGHT U rather than a personality, and someone Quistis, who was just kinda there. XIII had inter character conflict, development and growth, and while WK's summaries are funny, I think they do a disservice to the characters. They start off not liking each other and we see their friendships and bonds grow over time, and whatever else we can say XIII did wrong I can't fault it there.
I'll sum it up by asking (and answering) two questions about two immature angry babbies. Is Hope the same person he was at the end of FFVIII as he was at the start? No. Is Zell the same person he was at the end of FFVIII as he was at the start? Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
VIII's cast, at least they knew how to stay in the background to avoid outstaying their welcome unlike XIII's cast
I agree, but where I absolutely and vehemently disagree with you is that this is a good thing. It's atrocious. Look, in a movie like Star Wars fine, the focus is on the main trio and we don't need to have an emotional arc of discovery with Chewie. Similarly with Final Fantasy VIII the central theme of the story is Squall and Rinoa... except it's a 50 hour game, not a two hour movie. Why bother having the other four characters and have a party of just Squall and Rinoa instead? For gameplay purposes? That would just about sum it up, they were just tools for combat and you may as well have replaced them with battle robots. Why should we, as an audience, give a trout if our heroes succeed or fail or die if they're so bland and pointless? What are the stakes? Why are we invested?
I did say protagonists in my opening sentence for a reason though, as VIII's villains were infinitely better. I don't know what the smurf was going on with XIII's villains. I don't really even remember who they were - Jihl? Yaag? Barthandelus? PSICOM? I can't bring myself to care. Compare that to Seifer and Edea, or Galbadia as a faction and so on and they just knock it out of the park. Even NORG and Ultimecia were better villains than anyone in XIII.
On the overall story, I think both went to hell in the final third and the writers ran out of ideas in both. VIII's was better though, in a better and more relatable world. And although I cba to go into it more as it's breakfast time and I've just spent ages typing this instead of eating, I do think VIII is the better game and XIII is probably the worst numbered FF, so :monster:
05-21-2015, 05:53 AM
Scotty_ffgamer
I think XIII had a better developed cast, but I also think that they were pretty poorly written and mostly over dramatic. I liked that VIII's supporting protagonists didn't really take themselves too seriously and provided some good comedic moments. They were mostly static characters outside of Squall and Rinoa, but I also never really felt they needed to be different people by the end. I also find it hard to be bothered in this instance of "Why are these people together throughout the game" because I think it's fairly easy to explain. They were schoolmates that ended up being put on the same mercenary team. There isn't more to it than that and there doesn't NEED to be more than that for most of the game. A good chunk of the game is them working on their missions together, and this ends up all going wrong for them. It diverges from that point, but they work together to make it back to Garden and to protect it. Once they've all made it back to Garden, it can be questionable on why all of the side people are still there, but by that point they are probably comfortable as a team and have built a bit of a friendship. You also have the reveal of being childhood friends which I'm sure they'd want to explore.
I'm not saying these are all fantastically written parts or anything, but I just think the characters being there for most of the game is consistent with what the game presents you. I also enjoy the characters better despite acknowledging that the protagonists of XIII are better developed (but not better written). VIII's villains are way better though. It's world is way better as well. I also think that despite it's issues that it's story is told way better (and Laguna's story is better than either XIII or VIII's main story). Also the way VIII's story and world is laid out with a lot of it's weird aspects, it becomes open to a lot of interesting interpretations and analysis. I don't care if Squall is Dead as a theory isn't "canon;" I think it's just as valid of an interpretation as taking the story at face value or any of the other interesting theories out there. This comes from looking at it in the same kind of lens that scholars use to interpret literature. XIII really doesn't do much of that until you start bringing in the sequels.
I also think that saying VIII's gameplay is broken isn't very accurate. Broken gameplay is not the same as having the ability to break the game if you choose. I can accept the criticism that all of the characters are the same outside of their Limit Breaks, but what this game gives you is full customization of your characters. You could make your characters to be different if you wish, but there is no real reason to outside of maybe creating your own challenges. You could stay level 1ish and just boost all of your stats to make the game easy. You could level up to 100 and keep all of your stats low to create more of a challenge. You can break it or you can make your life a living hell while playing or do something in between. I just can't accept the idea that this game is broken because it take away grinding for levels and just moves that grinding to grinding for spells to junction. It's not really any more broken than any other FF game I feel. This part just depends on what your looking for from the gameplay. I can see why you wouldn't like it, but I like it for the same reasons you don't like it. Outside of the battling mechanics, you also have a world to explore in VIII, and I never felt like what I was doing was pointless like the battles in XIII at the beginning where you can't even level up or anything for a few hours.XIII was just too closed off in nearly every aspect for way too long.
05-24-2015, 10:13 PM
Wolf Kanno
Okay, if you want a more serious answer to the question about cast and character development, then let me explain why you can't compare the two games like this. You're basically comparing two different writing styles, namely first and third person narrative, and trying to make an argument that third person narrative is objectively superior, which is not really an argument we can make objectively. I can explain to you how XIII is a terrible third person narrative compared to other games that handled it better, and also explain how VIII is not a bad first person perspective narrative game, though I would agree that some games have handled the concept better.
Basically, VIII's cast isn't shallow, you're basically complaining that they lack focus and purpose because the story never bothers to explain their raison d'etre, but the issue here is that you fail to understand that their only purpose in the plot is to support and serve as a foil to Squall because the story is all about him. If you fleshed out the side characters, you then risk having the story become too muddled with different narratives, and in a story about a specific character's growth, that is a no no.
Think about the issues with novel version of the Hobbit versus the film adaptions. The book is all about Bilbo, there is no Necromancer subplot or Thorin dealing with the curse of his family and his rivalry with some Orc. The dwarves barely get much characterization in the novel because their whole purpose in the plot is to serve as the companions to Bilbo and help him grow as a character through his misadventures. The film adaptions struggle to be a coherent piece because it's trying to stay faithful to the original intentions of the book, but also adding all this extra content to make it feel more epic by adding in unnecessary subplots to better connect it to a film adaption long since past, instead it makes the main narrative point of the book feel disjointed and rushed. Thorin's story isn't even that good and he worked better as lazy delegator along with the other dwarves. In fact the films miss the whole theme of the book about Bilbo, the least likely adventurer of the group, being the only one to rise to the occasion on the journey; as opposed to the dwarves that seem more savvy adventurers, but were really no better than Bilbo. The Hobbit is not the longest novel but it's pretty long for a YA novel and it still has a strong story despite Bilbo being the only character of the main group who gets any characterization, so I disagree that having a 40 hour game means that everyone must have some purpose and character development when it doesn't serve the narrative purpose.
Squall and his companions are the same way. Their personalities are meant to be strong and optimistic to counter all the things that Squall is not. Quistis establishes who Squall is in the early sections of the game as a prodigy who is only held back by his loner attitude. Zell is openly emotional but hotheaded, causing problems that Squall has to think through. Selphie is carefree and childlike as opposed to Squall who acts much older than his age and is very serious. Irvine is more confident when dealing with people and the friendliest character, especially to the ladies, whereas Squall is abrasive and socially awkward around others. Rinoa is meant to be the one to drag Squall out of his protective shell. Laguna represents what Squall is not but at the same time they are the same, just opposite in personality. The characters become less relevant after the first two discs because Squall is growing as a person and learning to open up. The game is not about Zell or Irvine's growth, it's about Squall, and their only purpose is to be the foil that gets him out of his shell, which is why all their characterization is defined by their interactions with Squall, as opposed to some personal hangup they need resolved.
This is why you really can't compare the two because XIII's cast is an ensemble cast with focus spread around because it's about the characters dealing with their troutty situation. The reason why I like VIII's cast more is because I feel they serve their purpose in their story and all of them are quite frankly charming. XIII's cast is overly melodramatic and their arcs are rushed and filled with manipulative writing to create drama as opposed to letting their personal stories really get to the player.
Lightning has all of these anger issues because she's been an over protective mother figure all her life and then spends one chapter poisoning Hope's mind into vengeance only to realize that maybe she's being a bad influence after it's too late. She doesn't resolve this though, she just suddenly realizes that if she was maybe more understanding to Serah and Hope, her problems wouldn't be so bad but there is no real moment for her that really defines that this has taken part. It has no dramatic climax, Hope's story is mostly resolved without her input and Serah doesn't really appear again until the end of the game. She just has an epiphany at the start of Chapter 7 and that's kind of the end of her characterization.
Snow is basically a hero wannabe who wants to save Serah but once the intro is finally over and the plot starts proper, he's written out of the plot for several chapters until he shows up to show that's he's really bad at being a hero and Hope is justified to stop him. He then suddenly angsts about not saving Hope's mom in a critical moment for Hope's characterization and then saves Hope's life. After this, everything is forgiven because Snow's heart is in the right place and yeah whatever. So what exactly is Snow's real character arc here? I mean he basically realizes that he's doing more damage than good, gets forgiven when people see his heart is in the right place and yeah... again it's a revelation that comes out of nowhere for the character, made worse than Lightning's scenario since Snow is MIA for several chapters so it's not like he has any real build-up to it.
Hope's story is not bad as much as it is rushed and overly melodramatic. The transition from confused and emotionally unstable to "I MUST SEEKETH REVENGE!" was awkward due to the bad writing filled with too many coincidences and Lightning's troutty personality to make the transition feel natural. Again, the hardest part for me is not comparing it to Ken Amada's story in Persona 3 which was handled better by having several of the glaring logical errors of Hope's scenario not be present or actually accounted for. The real problem with Hope's story is the 180 turn it takes when it's resolved. Going from seething hatred and constant angst, to moody but mostly optimistic is very jarring and makes his drama feel fake. The other issue with Hope's character is that moody is about all we know about him. His characterization before his mother's death is mostly non-existent outside of Japan only prequel novels so it's difficult to get a ring on how much turmoil the death is causing him because it's the only thing that defines him, but the player is never really given any context as to why this is a big deal beyond playing to the player's empathy of what it must feel like to lose a mother. In fact this is probably the biggest problem with XIII's drama overall, is that is plays too much to the idea that the audience is overly empathetic as opposed to people that expect logical consistency.
Sahz has a very original story arc and frankly I will agree he's the game's best character when he's not reduced to being the party's token minority comic relief character, but I'm still pissy about the attempted suicide, because it was so manipulative and so quickly swept under the rug as unimportant. It's obvious that it was written less for being a defining moment for the character and story, like Cele's fateful suicide attempt was, and more played for shock value. Again, the story is written to prey on the player's emotions rather than actually be a story about exploring feelings and issues. It's the main reason why so much of the plot's drama feels fake, because it is.
Vanille is a walking plot device and her only character moment is confronting the fact she is, which like Snow, is forgiven and forgotten as quickly as it comes up. Her whole confrontation with her Eidolon comes out of nowhere unless you read the DataLog, which largely tells her story better, as it keeps bringing in new info the cutscenes don't feel are important. Not to mention the whole scene is laughable since Fang is the most shallow character in the story and thus neither Fang or the player are concerned about it being a big deal.
Fang is a fine example of a character who doesn't really serve any purpose in the plot that Vanille already doesn't fill. She's there to get Vanille and protect her and it's resolved the very next chapter after she joins. She then disappears into the background as the more angsty characters hog the limelight to bemoan there fate; and justify why they are going to fap about for several hours in Pulse before the main villain shows up and convinces them to do the very thing they said they weren't going to do at the start of the game. She really has no character arc because she gets little screen time and little context unlike Vanille who at least was around since the beginning to be living plot device.
So now here's my issue. Do I go with the cast that has no real story but serves as a foil to help rationalize the growth of the central character whom the whole plot is about, or choose the game who does have a cast with motives but are largely over-the-top and manipulative to hide the fact the writer doesn't really know what they are doing? So yeah, VIII's cast is the better written cast in my opinion, they're simply not the type of cast you wanted, but it doesn't change the fact they do serve a narrative purpose in the story, even if it was simply to help one character get more growth and be background support.
06-08-2015, 08:54 PM
FFNut
I bought both games at release, but after the intro they went back in the case and put in a box. Didn't like either at the start. I may try VIII again after the replay of IX I'm planing to do. However XIII will remain for some time yet as it left me saying what the noodles(edited for content) is this trash.
06-09-2015, 03:15 AM
Mr. Carnelian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Lightning: I'M ANGRY! *Punches Snow and gives bad advice to minors*
Snow: I'M THE HERO! I'M GOING TO SAVE SERAH! SERAH WANTS US TO SAVE COCOON! SERAH'S FOCUS WAS TO SAVE COCOON! Oafghff *sound he makes when Lightning punches him in the face, which is almost every damn cutscene the two are featured in together*
Hope: I lost my mommy! I don't know what to do... Snow killed her even though I totally saw him try to save her but I'm an eight year old trapped in a teen body and will rewrite reality in my head to justify all my ANGST! Oh he saved me, he's like a cool big bro...
Sahz: I'm looking for my son, have you seen him? Oh let me act like Eddie Murphy for a few minutes and be all like "Damn Lightning, you crazy gurl!" Now I'm going to kill myself, Psych!
Vanille: HI! My name is Vanille, I'm going to spend the next thirty hours being painfully suspicious until you realize almost everything about me before I reveal it because I only know that subtlety is a word in a dictionary. I'll also be responsible for all of the uncomfortable T&A in this game, just like Rikku did in FFX, so all the pedophiles that play these games will get their money's worth. I caused all the problems in the plot and wish I wasn't always being rescued but I'll keep making the same mistake until I take part in the game's Deus ex Machina that had no foreshadowing whatsoever and then you'll have to feel sad for me just because that's what the writer intended but didn't understand how to do so. Tee-hee.
Fang; I'm going to pop up early and be mysterious and interesting until I join the party and do jack trout for the plot. Oh, I might also be a lesbian. Maybe...
I would also include Serah and Barthandalus.
Serah: I'm really annoying and my only purpose in the plot is to serve as a damsel in distress. I'm getting married at eighteen to a man who I've apparently known for less than a year, but I am surprised when my sister disapproves. Why, oh why won't she validate my relationship with this older man with bad hair who has no job? I only get character development in the sequel.
Barthandalus: I want to destroy the world, because Daddy issues. Destroying everything that my absent father figure made will make him love me, right?
To be honest, I actually quite like the character development in XIII (apart from Serah, I did dislike her in XIII). The characters are quite fun to mock, though.
06-11-2015, 05:56 PM
Bolivar
It's interesting how VIII and XIII were both designed by the same principal game developers and both received the same divisive reaction, especially from fans of the 2D games. But FFVIII is obviously the more significant title - it was one of the most ambitious games of all time and intentionally went for the RPG throne, while XIII was made after they had already cemented their status as grandmasters and just wanted to ship an entertaining game for the new consoles.
VIII was driven and defined by the lofty goals of its team - to tell a coming of age story, a "fantasy based in reality," a tale of two protagonists, the love story, child soldiers. But the most striking ambition of VIII was its gameplay innovations. Unlike other RPGs which send players off into static dungeons, FFVIII thrust it's players into situations. Abducting a president on his train; assassinating a sorceress during a parade; fending off the Lunatic Pandora throughout a futuristic city. Square was trailblazing the future of RPGs and gaming in those days and unfortunately it's something we've lost in the console generations since. When I play the modern WRPGs that are "on top," we've somehow gone back to fighting monsters in caves again.
Unfortunately XIII did not get that creative drive because all of its lead designers were experimenting on the handheld front, which was the future for Japan at the time. Instead, they made a demo where you fight monsters in gorgeous environments and decided to set out making a game based around that concept, with a serviceable story built around it. I could actually conceive that XIII had a more rewarding plot, as every character has their own unique motivation and is fighting for someone they love. I enjoyed how the game paired them off and had them play off each other's personalities. I didn't mind the lack of strong antagonists because the true conflict took place within the characters and the knowledge of what they might become.
I liked XIII quite a lot but it was not as ambitious as the FFs of yore, least of all Final Fantasy VIII.
06-11-2015, 09:09 PM
Bright Shield
Not really a big fan of either game, but VIII was decent at least. XIII is one of the worst JRPGs ever, with one of the worst casts in gaming.
I'm with Wolf all the way on this.
06-11-2015, 10:32 PM
Ayen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
It's interesting how VIII and XIII were both designed by the same principal game developers and both received the same divisive reaction, especially from fans of the 2D games. But FFVIII is obviously the more significant title - it was one of the most ambitious games of all time and intentionally went for the RPG throne, while XIII was made after they had already cemented their status as grandmasters and just wanted to ship an entertaining game for the new consoles.
Really? Because everything I read suggested they wanted XIII to be the next Final Fantasy VII.
06-12-2015, 01:23 AM
Bolivar
Like what?
They paid homage to VII in certain ways - every environment was different from the last and continued pushing the story forward but certainly they did not set out to realign the boundaries of the medium - like they consciously did in VII and VIII.
06-12-2015, 01:38 AM
Ayen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Like what?
They paid homage to VII in certain ways - every environment was different from the last and continued pushing the story forward but certainly they did not set out to realign the boundaries of the medium - like they consciously did in VII and VIII.
In an interview with one of the developers on the game either about Lightning or something else who said something along the lines of "We wanted it to be widely well receive as FFVII." It could have been taken out of context, but no one ever challenged it, so I never questioned it until now.
Thinking about it more that might have been more about the Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy than any one specific game.
06-12-2015, 01:44 AM
Bolivar
Every developer wants their game to be a success and putting a strong female heroine front and center is definitely in line with the broad appeal Final Fantasy has always enjoyed. However, all I was saying is VIII was a game where they consciously pushed the envelope on game design. I remember them claiming they were streamlining the RPG experience in XIII, which they did, but I don't think they pretended to be making a transformative work of art.
That's ultimately the distinction I'm trying to get across - FFVIII consciously tread the outer limits of what could be accomplished by gaming, whereas FFXIII instead looked inward, at what had already been done by other genres, in hopes of creating a more streamlined single-player experience. It was a compilation of concepts and techniques others had already tested and tried out before, while VIII cultivated its own homegrown ingredients.
The argument can be made XIII was more successful but the ingenuity of VIII makes it more special to me.
06-20-2015, 04:09 AM
Forsaken Lover
Okay, I'm ready to talk more about why the Catholic Church needs to add Final FantaY VIII as a cardinal sin.
Wolf, you think the cast is "charming." What you find "charming" others find one-dimensional and insultingly stereotypical. Take Irvine for example. You realize he's such a garbage character that the fandom has to invent depth for him? Look at all the "he was having trouble shooting Edea because she's like a mother to him" apologists.
That. Is. Crap.
The game tells us in no uncertain terms he can't shoot Edea because he always suffers from nerves. His Scan confirms this:
"An expert marksman. Can use specialized bullets to attack enemies. Doesn't perform very well under pressure."
This completely incompetent buffoon was assigned to handle the most important part of a mission that could result in god knows how many atrocities, deaths and other unpleasant things.
That's not charming. It's enough to make you want to grind your teeth until your teeth fall out. It is a slap in the face to any player who pays even remote attention to the plot and wants said plot to progress in any way that resembles logic.
There's nothing wrong with having Squall be the center of attention. He's a main character, no different from Zidane or Tidus. You place them at the forefront of the story and have them effect the story the most deeply. It does not mean you neglect your other characters and make them look like complete morons.
And finally, your entire argument kind of falls apart when you realize the game DOES try to develop these lousy characters. Rinoa gets plenty of focus, Zell gets plenty of focus, even Quistis will get plenty of focus if you bring her alone at certain points. It's just that this focus goes nowhere. Like Rinoa's relationship with her father, a frickin' key and vital part of the last act of Disk 1. It will go unresolved and unmentioned for the rest of the game though because Rinoa doesn't need to make peace with her dad, she's getting dick from her BAD BOY now.
It's smurfing repulsive.
Nowhere is FFVIII's abominable storytelling better seen than with Seifer, who the game just forgets about for all of Disk 3. Except at the end. Seifer received just as much characterization and development as Squall, in spite of your claims the game only cares about Squall. It's just that the game sucks and can't give him any proper resolution. It forgets about him just like it forgets about every other plot point.
06-20-2015, 04:24 AM
Ayen
You seem to be neglecting the part that the people who set up the mission wanted them to fail to frame Balamb Garden for an assassination attempt on the Sorceress. NORG said as much in your encounter with him.
Or was that just their fallout plan to blame Balamb in case the mission failed? Dammit, I can't remember now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Okay, I'm ready to talk more about why the Catholic Church needs to add Final FantaY VIII as a cardinal sin.
This is hilarious coming from a FFXIII fan :roll2
06-20-2015, 04:31 AM
Forsaken Lover
Except Edea still came and took away Galbadia Garden and Martien is now langushing forever at Fisherman's Horizon.
His plan sucks, either way you slice it. Why does he even have Irvine in his employ if he knows Irvine sucks?
Also Squall and the others get their orders directly from Martine and I remember quite clearly Squall comments on the fact this was not an ordinary mission but a "joint" operation between Balamb and Galbadia. So it's not like Martine even covered up his tracks at all. He just kinda shifted the blame so Balamb would go down with him.
Garden Faculty: "Master NORG has known about the alliance between the President of Galbadia and the sorceress. He heard it from the Galbad ia Garden master himself."
Garden Faculty 2: "Yes. In fact the sorceress and Garden are closely connected. That is why the sorceress will definitely try to gain hold of all Gardens."
Garden Faculty: "So, Master NORG sent an official order to Galbadia Garden. It was to kill the sorceress. An assassination was thought to be he best means. But..."
Squall: "Are you saying that Balamb Garden had nothing to do with that order?"
Garden Faculty: "You just happened to show up just before the mission was to be carried out. They used you."
So to me it looks like NORG wanted to place the blame on Martien in case it went south but Martine punted the guilt ball back to Balamb.
Also I think FFXIII is awful. It's just that it's urine when compared to the mountain of fecal matter that is FFVIII.
06-20-2015, 04:38 AM
Ayen
Of course it sucked. They put the Sorceress in a cage tipping her off that something was amiss. Didn't matter who was the sniper on the mission. Her magic still would've stopped the bloody bullet.
06-20-2015, 05:17 AM
Wolf Kanno
You forget that Squall actually convinces Irvine to shoot. Which is a pretty good character growing moment for him, as well as all the times he spends later trying to play match maker for Squall and Rinoa while also trying to woo the oblivious Selphie. There is quite a bit going for Irvine. He may have confidence issues but it stands he was Galbadia's best sniper and it also stands that he did shoot in the end. Bullets just don't work as well on mind-controlled time witches is all. So he does get his arc, he starts to choke and Squall tells him to suck it up and just do it. Afterwards he spends his time either playing the party pacifist with Rinoa, setting Rinoa up with Squall, trying to get with Selphie, or chasing anything without a Y chromosome. He's not one-dimensional as he's a flirt, a pacifist, a good friend, and pretty funny along with his inability to pull the trigger when the going gets tough (even though he did). I mean Galbadai knew he might screw up, which is why they chose to hire Squall's unit for the possibility he did fail. So it's not like there is a major plot hole here, maybe a very contrived plot to get the party to meet the eccentric sharpshooter but again, it's not like Square hasn't resorted to even sillier things in the past...
I will agree the game dropped the ball with Rinoa's daddy issues but it's not like Square has never dropped a plot thread before in their games. Freya, Barret, Faris, Kain, Leon, Siegfried, Lone Wolf the Pickpocket, and Basch never see the proper resolution they were due in their games either, and frankly the plot is such an overused concept for heroines that I'm grateful it was dropped. If memory serves me correct, you do get a bit of resolution if you bring her to his mansion later on but it's been years since I've played that I could just be imagining things. Ultimately, I never said VIII had great writing, I'm just saying it's better than XIII's, which isn't difficult to argue.
As for Seifer, it's a matter of things changing from early development to full on development. Nomura intended for Squall, Seifer, and Rinoa to have some central love triangle dynamic going on but obviously Nojima and Kitase changed their minds when actual development started. Seifer is certainly an underused resource in VIII, but at least he does feel relevant to the plot as opposed to EVERY SINGLE SIDE CHARACTER IN XIII. Jihl and Cid wished they got the amount of screen time and plot development as Seifer did. He's an underutilized aspect but I would argue he pretty much completes his arc. He wants to follow his romantic dream of being a knight and basically gets his wish along with several chances to thrash his rival Squall. What else was there suppose to be for him? Even the supposed "romance" angle is jossed as quickly as it is revealed.
The characters do get exploration but it's not like they had some major story arc to be resolved. Zell gets lots of screentime to show he's hot-headed, dislikes Seifer, loves his grandfather and ma, and even gets to hook up with a library girl and save his hometown. Nowhere is there some deep-seated story arc for him to resolve. He's not avenging his home, tracking down his lover's killer, or coming to terms with his inadequacy (though he does get some of that during the Assassinate the Sorceress mission) so he's not really screwed out of some unfinished story arc. Again, I feel like the issue at hand is that you were told you were getting fruit and you expected apples and got oranges, and while I can say it's perfectly valid to argue you like apples better than oranges, you can't really argue that oranges are not fruit because they are not like apples. The characters get enough screentime in the beginning to establish who they are and what they are to Squall, but the main driving force of character development is Squall's journey which the other characters (now established with their own quirks) are used to help drive his development. You can't expect them to all have some private personal journey all the time, it just wasn't that kind of story. It's basically the same issues with FFXII which chose to be plot driven rather than character driven.
