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So I just reached round two of the submission process to run a panel at a convention I go to every year. The topic of course is the genre of RPGs and it's an 18+ panel so debauchery is in. Last year I did the panel as well and it was quite the hit with con attendees. So if you were running an RPG panel, what would you be most interested in discussing?
Final Fantasy. I know, such a shocking answer.
I'd probably want to throw Xenogears, Legend of Dragoon, Legaia, and a bunch of old JRPGs no one talks about anymore, lol.
Why so many jrpgs only dare to scratch the surface of serious matters
Why developers feel they have to change JRPGs away from the trends that made them successful?
What makes them feel that an ATB system wouldn't work in today's market when so many fans enjoyed it? Arguable more people then who enjoy the FFXII and FFXIII style of combat. What do the con attendants prefer? (I personally think Chrono Trigger perfected combat)
What makes them think that stunning graphics will sell more copies of a game than a fun system with an amazing story?
On the other hand, why is the main character always a young boy, who's orphaned/different/fresh out of basic training? I want to play a grizzled old guy who finds a renewed sense of strength and seeks revenge for past wrongs, or start the game as a villain who successfully destroys the world but then realizes his mistakes and must travel time to find the means and ability to stop his former self, or a superpower who's part of a pantheon that travels the universe and brings order to the worlds he finds amongst the chaos. What would they like to see?
Neat topic ideas so far. I actually goofed about the panel, it's about RPGs in general, though JRPGs are a focus on account the convention is an anime one. So feel free to ask questions about anything concerning the genre of RPGs. I may actually offer my opinion on some of the topics later. :shifty:
Ohh. In that case I'd probably talk about Bioware and Bethesda stuff too and how their RPGs are so different to each other. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Skyrim, Fallout, etc.
It'd be interesting to talk about demand, I think. Consider how much people are expecting FFVII to change in the remake so that it's more "modern", but at the same time people are super excited about throwback titles like Bravely Default.
It comes down to which serious matters we're discussing but chances are it's a combination of many factors. 1) The obvious reason is that they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot in terms of sales. The GBA port of FFVI censored Celes getting beaten by the guards, not because they felt it was offensive or controversial, but because the CERO guidelines would have given it a rating for an older audience and they would have lost a lot of potential sales for an inconsequential scene. While M rated games do well in the West, they are often M rated for extreme violence and offensive language more than because they deal with complex mature themes, still it's usual a better business practice to hit as wide of an audience as you possibly can, so I'm not surprised companies shy away from building older plots that may potentially alienate a viable audience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
2) There are cultural difference to consider. Not that there are no universal topics that stories can revolve around but cultures have different values and sometimes that sends mixed messages. We often see the "religions is evil" trope in JRPGs but I would argue that the trope is really more about "organized bureaucratic religious institutions are evil" as opposed to religion itself being evil. This is because Japan is pretty religiously liberal compared to Western cultures. They recognize holidays and go through several religious traditions, but most of Japan's major religions are done on a more personal level. Someone in Japan may say they are Buddhist or Shinto but it's not like either faith is an institution that enforces or calls for participation unlike traditional Judeo-Christian based religions. There views can be controversial in the West but in the hometown it's not really a big deal from there perspective. The games are sometimes actually controversial or hitting hard topics but there are some value dissonance going on as well which may or may not be apparent.
3) Japan still considers video games to be a youth market. They still hold on to a view that once you reach a certain age, you get serious, get a career/family, and leave video games for the younger generation. Part of this may stem from the toxic nature of Otaku culture in Japan which is considered a negative term but they have lightened up thanks to the West embracing such terms and giving it more of a positive spin. The closest analogy I can make in the West is how Western Animated Films rarely release adult films. They exist but they are few and far between but it's not like Disney is going to adapt Game of Thrones into an animated film series. Adult-centric animated film features is considered too much of a niche market to bet money on, despite Adult Swim, Archer, and Seth McFarland showing that adult-centric animation does have a base. Even then, the niche still only deals with comedies and you almost never see one that deals with serious matters without a heavy does of comic relief to ease the pain.
Largely to avoid Capcom Syndrome and keep the series fresh. Series and genres have to evolve if they want to stay relevant. There are also trends and other market elements to consider and sometimes those will create odd changes. A lot of the changes we've seen in JRPGs can be attributed to the success of MMOs and especially Monster Hunter in Japan and Asia. For WRPGs, I would say it's due to the X-Box and it's use of Bioware titles and getting Morrowind on it to fill the RPG gap the console was missing, really introduced people to WRPGs and they have been taken as the gold standard. Same thing happened with FFVII with JRPGs, RPGs were required to be cinematic, over the top, user friendly as hell and visually stunning if they wanted to succeed according to marketing. The entire 16-bit era of Squaresoft's development process can be seen as Square tinkering with the formula to create an RPG that was streamlined enough but still engaging enough to be accepted by mainstream and appeal to an audience that grew up on arcade style games and platformers. Notice how FFIV, in it's original state, is the most challenging title of the 16-bit era whereas Chrono Trigger practically requires no grinding and is one of the most visually stunning games of it's generation. Fact is everyone is trying to find that sweet spot that will make the game's successful and if that means they have to move away from older trends that were successful in yesteryear to do so, then so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
Honestly, FFXV may be the first entry to abandon ATB and even that may end up being debatable (I haven't played the demo myself) but even games like FFXII-XIV have been using variations of the formula. Hiroyuki Ito himself has said that RPGs would most likely move closer to a seamless action base direction eventually, and this is coming from the guy who invented the system. Frankly, Square(Enix) have been trying to move away from the standard "dudes standing in line on one side take turns beating up dudes standing in line on the other side" visual affair. With X-2 onward, SE has been trying to make battles look like battles and not look like the visualization of what goes on in a tabletop game when actually trying to fight a bad guy. In order to make battles both feel and look more organic, they have been trying to rev up the speed. Fans like that but it has reached the point where in order to maintain the speed battles are being built to play at, player agency is being dumbed down and fazed out. We saw this with XII's Gambit system, XIII's Paradigm system and now XV has a single character who is controllable. The rise of A.I. is to help speed up battles and make normal combat feel less monotonous because it has been a complaint from fans since back in the earliest days of the genre. We're just finally seeing developers take notice and using the tech to make it work. Ito has said he still sees a future for the genre and SMT's Press Turn system and Bravery Default's BD system have proven that there are still creative ways to utilize Turn-Based combat as well. So whlie ATB may lost it's standing with the main series, I don't see SE completely abandoning it.Quote:
What makes them feel that an ATB system wouldn't work in today's market when so many fans enjoyed it? Arguable more people then who enjoy the FFXII and FFXIII style of combat. What do the con attendants prefer? (I personally think Chrono Trigger perfected combat)
The PS1 generation of FFs did this but they got their inspiration from Hollywood. I mean when you look at VII back in the day, it was the visuals that caught your eye first and the first thing people talk about, same with every FF after it, though the 2D era was no slouch in this department either. We're also just hardwired to be engaged by visual stimuli more than other types through evolution, but that's a different subject entirely. The idea is largely for the same reason why Micheal Bay films tend to out-gross most of the films that win academy awards. Something more visually exciting has more of an immediate sense of pleasure than something that has to be slowly processed like music, story, and gameplay. It's why games tend to sell on visuals rather than other elements. I doubt you would be interested in seeing a God of War commercial that was just 20 seconds of someone playing, as opposed to an edited "highlights" reel of the most visually stunning moments in the game.Quote:
What makes them think that stunning graphics will sell more copies of a game than a fun system with an amazing story?
tl;dr blame Hollywood.
A lot of that goes back to JRPGs largely being targeted towards a younger demographic and they need to appeal to their taste. What does a 16-year-old know about a 40-something-year old who has lived through heartache, lost his family, and is starting to doubt the choices in his life. Of anything it sends kind of a negative message about adulthood as well to them. I'm not saying a younger demographic can't play an older character and appreciate them; I often feel that that marketing and writers underestimate what the "cool" kids will like but frankly there is a lot of research that shows that people identify better with people closer to their age because they have more shared experience. It doesn't help that an older person can relate to a a young character better than the opposite due to experience. This is why I feel they get the shaft and is one of the reasons why Western developers have surged in recent years, because they tend to cater to older tastes or build games that are age neutral.Quote:
On the other hand, why is the main character always a young boy, who's orphaned/different/fresh out of basic training? I want to play a grizzled old guy who finds a renewed sense of strength and seeks revenge for past wrongs, or start the game as a villain who successfully destroys the world but then realizes his mistakes and must travel time to find the means and ability to stop his former self, or a superpower who's part of a pantheon that travels the universe and brings order to the worlds he finds amongst the chaos. What would they like to see?
Modernizing VII comes from the fact the game needs it. I've been replaying it recently and it has not aged quite as well as I remember and I don't think a visual upgrade and a new translation will fix the underlying problems the game faces. It's a dated experience which is something the RPG genre suffers from more than other genres. The game needs to be modernized but how much depends on who SE is making the game for. Fans will want it mostly tweaked but younger fans (or what SE thinks younger players like) might be put off by some of it's design choices. Again, the game may see changes because SE is going for maximum appeal, not just core fan appeal, though I feel their may also just be a sense the design team wants to approach the game differently as well which is something I don't think anyone really considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Throwback titles comes back to some of the elements touched upon by previous questions but I would say the reason is that games like Bravery Default are really tailored for older fans, whereas the newest FF game is tailored for mass appeal. It helps that BD doesn't just rehash FFV's job system but actually tweaks combat and gameplay to rid the issues with Turn Based combat, which is that most people find it boring but it's because developers streamlined it so much that regular battles don't offer anything anymore. They are a means to an end instead of feeling like an involved element of the game.
Fun story/fact: Ito admitted that originally the Gambit system wouldn't be active on the character the player controlled because he understood that player agency is important in a video game. The ability to fully automate your party was added in towards the end of development because Ito realized more hardcore players (who tend to develop streamlined strategies for grinding) would appreciate the ability to just automate the process so they can make grinding for rare loot and XP feel less tedious. Obviously this idea backfired on him which is why XIII's system tries to find a compromise.
What everyone fails to see in this problem is that Ito wouldn't have not had to bother doing any of this if he made normal battles actually require some form of player agency that felt fulfilling. BD accomplishes this by creating a system that rewards strategy and risk, two factors that got fazed out during the "Golden Age of JRPGs" known as the 90s. Basically all players really want from a combat system is one that gives reward for effort and to do so requires getting the player to feel involved in combat and to feel a sense of reward for using the system to its fullest. It's the reason why fans praise Press Turn and Bravery/Default systems because they accomplish this.
That's how I would answer the questions but I may dwell on it a bit more.
JRPG's made in the West and WRPG's made in the East.
Keeping within certain cero rating limits is fine, but it is possible to make different cuts for different areas. SE for instance has done so in the past, just not in our favor. I also don't think you'd need ESRB M or PEGI 16 in order to let a sprite guy hit a sprite girl. T or 12 might have been enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannostuffQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Japanese developers should also recognize that even if there might be fewer adult japanese players, you can't really survive on japanese sales alone, at least not if you want to make home console title. Even if japanese companies consider games a youth market, is this actually what the gaming market in japan looks like, or is it just an incorrect assumption on their part? Also where does "youth" end for them? At 18, 25? I'm sure 25 year olds would be able to appreciate a more serious storyline. Maybe even 22 year olds would.
I first learned about this in a video way back that was going over the religious topics in Final Fantasy. I found it to be a pretty interesting eye-opener, if anything I think I prefer the Japanese's take on religion than I do the West. They have a point, too. Especially if you pay attention to the larger religious institutions out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
It's not a matter of them enjoying it or not. In Japan, you finish school and spend the rest of your life at work. From morning to evening all you do is work, go to bars with work colleagues and commute. You really don't have time for games when you're part of that kind of model.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirageKeeping within certain cero rating limits is fine, but it is possible to make different cuts for different areas. SE for instance has done so in the past, just not in our favor. I also don't think you'd need ESRB M or PEGI 16 in order to let a sprite guy hit a sprite girl. T or 12 might have been enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannostuffQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Japanese developers should also recognize that even if there might be fewer adult japanese players, you can't really survive on japanese sales alone, at least not if you want to make home console title. Even if japanese companies consider games a youth market, is this actually what the gaming market in japan looks like, or is it just an incorrect assumption on their part? Also where does "youth" end for them? At 18, 25? I'm sure 25 year olds would be able to appreciate a more serious storyline. Maybe even 22 year olds would.
Which is probably why mobile gaming is so huge over there. It lets them get some game time in-between work where they wouldn't have time before.
inb4 Aulayna, "I told you guys this years ago and you never listened."
Depends on the game and the series it's a part of. Stunning graphics are great to just get people's attention. A fun leveling system and amazing story only kick in after you've got that attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
Obviously that doesn't apply quite as much for things like FF or Zelda that have this guaranteed following already. They're generally much better served if they just make a good game.
Believe me, I agree with you that Japanese companies are kind of skirting the issue but I think the best way to look at it is that companies are trying for more of a net approach like Pixar does. Their films are children orientated but have enough elements in it that an adult can appreciate the film but it doesn't mean Pixar has plans to make a movie for adults because many adults now grew up on animation. I think RPGs will start doing this once someone does it and it succeeds. Japan has always had a "follow the leader" approach to progression in terms of bold ideas. I think it's why we're seeing so many top designers from yesteryear abandon their companies because they won't let them push the envelope like they want. The fact they have to use Western Kickstarter programs to get any footing because Japan's business practices (it's close to being an oligarchy) make developing a new company and the indie scene a very difficult than the West is another hurdle to overcome. I think we will see changes in the future though.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirageKeeping within certain cero rating limits is fine, but it is possible to make different cuts for different areas. SE for instance has done so in the past, just not in our favor. I also don't think you'd need ESRB M or PEGI 16 in order to let a sprite guy hit a sprite girl. T or 12 might have been enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannostuffQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Japanese developers should also recognize that even if there might be fewer adult japanese players, you can't really survive on japanese sales alone, at least not if you want to make home console title. Even if japanese companies consider games a youth market, is this actually what the gaming market in japan looks like, or is it just an incorrect assumption on their part? Also where does "youth" end for them? At 18, 25? I'm sure 25 year olds would be able to appreciate a more serious storyline. Maybe even 22 year olds would.
There are other factors that get lost too. Barret having a gun arm has more cultural significance in Japan than the West but luckily his story is told in a way where both sides reach the same conclusion. In the West it's a symbol of his revenge and his regret. In Japan, due to Shinto's influence, it's a symbol of his lost humanity because the Japanese are very weary about body modifications because Shinto teaches that the body should remain natural. Prosthetics in Japan are a sore spot for older Japanese who see it an unnatural and losing a piece of yourself, whereas the West sees it as regaining something you lost. Cyberpunk tends to be a pretty edgy genre in Japan because of the value dissonance, whereas in the West, the cyborgs are the least controversial element in cyberpunk. A lot of that is lost in the West but we come to the same conclusion because we see Barret's obsession with Revenge being the driving factor of him losing his humanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayen
I think a good topic would be fetch quests and monster hunt quests since they permeate all types of RPGs both from the East and West. I would be curious to know the panel's overall thoughts on those types of quests and if they have a place in RPGs or are just filler. I'd also like to hear if they've noticed an increasing trend to include larger volumes of those types of quests in modern RPGs as the main 'side activity' and what that means for the genre. Also maybe some examples how how those types of quests are done right and wrong and games that use them too much or just the right amount along with other types of quests.