Deus Ex Mankind Divided Pre-Order BS

Okay, Square we need to talk.

http://www.aguywhogames.com/homepage...rder-bulltrout/

If you don't want to read my post on it, the short version.

Tiers of Pre-Order bonus's are locked behind an arbitrary number of Pre-Orders, meaning if enough Pre-Orders aren't made some content will be unavailable.

Enough Pre-Orders the game will launch four days earlier.

They are seriously encouraging you harder ever before to pay for the game before it comes out, and then denying you content if enough people wont do it.

First time in my life I am refusing to buy a game purely on principle, and it sucks because I was really looking forward to this one.

You missed the best part: Each Tier of rewards offers a "choice". So, even if all the tiers are met, you STILL don't get all the content, unless you order the $150 Collector's Edition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmbHtXPhr14

The actual announcement video, if you guys want to go downvote it.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

You missed the best part: Each Tier of rewards offers a "choice". So, even if all the tiers are met, you STILL don't get all the content, unless you order the $150 Collector's Edition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmbHtXPhr14

The actual announcement video, if you guys want to go downvote it.

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Done. That's a good amount of downvotes already. Looking forward to the inevitable Jimquisition episode about this nonsense.

And in the same week as we find out that MGS5 reviewers were kept in some kind of luxury pleasure palace while they played the game. It's a dark week for game publisher reputations.I'll buy this one a year after it's released, second hand.

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Originally Posted by Randy

I'll buy this one a year after it's released, second hand.

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A solid plan. I was a huge fan of Human Revolution, but I won't preorder this. Steam sale, half off at a bare minimum.

I don't think there's any need to wait until it's been out a while to get this. After all, I do still want to support the developer and encourage Square Enix to keep financing Deus Ex games. I just won't pre-order it, and make sure the reviews are solid and the game isn't broken. But I'll still buy it week 1.

We can protest against the pre-order nonsense without necessarily protesting the game itself - although waiting until the 'all content included' version is the standard price is also a perfectly reasonable approach.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I don't think there's any need to wait until it's been out a while to get this. After all, I do still want to support the developer and encourage Square Enix to keep financing Deus Ex games. I just won't pre-order it, and make sure the reviews are solid and the game isn't broken. But I'll still buy it week 1.

We can protest against the pre-order nonsense without necessarily protesting the game itself - although waiting until the 'all content included' version is the standard price is also a perfectly reasonable approach.

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The Problem I have in this case is content being withheld by virtue of the fact they are doing that 'pre-order' tier trout. If enough people avoid pre-ordering over this, we are going to be denied content as a result of not being willing to put up with their BS.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

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Originally Posted by Fox

I don't think there's any need to wait until it's been out a while to get this. After all, I do still want to support the developer and encourage Square Enix to keep financing Deus Ex games. I just won't pre-order it, and make sure the reviews are solid and the game isn't broken. But I'll still buy it week 1.

We can protest against the pre-order nonsense without necessarily protesting the game itself - although waiting until the 'all content included' version is the standard price is also a perfectly reasonable approach.

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The Problem I have in this case is content being withheld by virtue of the fact they are doing that 'pre-order' tier trout. If enough people avoid pre-ordering over this, we are going to be denied content as a result of not being willing to put up with their BS.

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Yes, but even if enough people DO preorder, you're denied content anyway. You have to choose WHICH preorder bonuses you want. In other words, unless you pay an extra $100 for the Collector's Edition, you will be denied content anyway. It's like retailer-exclusive preorder bonuses. Only worse.

Squeenix do this bulltrout with all of their games now.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Randy

I'll buy this one a year after it's released, second hand.

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A solid plan. I was a huge fan of Human Revolution, but I won't preorder this. Steam sale, half off at a bare minimum.

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That is what Clarkson would do.

HR plummeted in price faster than most other new games; I think MD will do the same. So I really see no reason to buy new, even without this offensive pre-order scheme (which is indeed offensive).

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Originally Posted by Old Manus

Squeenix do this bulltrout with all of their games now.

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Honestly what major publisher doesn't anymore?

It's never going to stop until people stop buying into it, and it doesn't look like they will anytime soon, because the average gamer just doesn't care about being nickled and dimed and having conent withheld arbitrarily.

You should look at what the Batman: Arkham Knight pre-order season pass BS was like. It was a freaking nightmare for anyone who wanted all the content, and if you purchased the season pass with the game (a season pass which is supposed to save you money, mind you) it was $100. And you know what happened? It became the highest selling game of the year.

I buy games I want to play despite all the tacked on rubbish, but screw paying for DLC, season passes, and all that other crap.

Are you talking about Human Revolution which came out 4 years ago? Or are you talking about Mankind Divided?

Yeah, Mankind Divided. Just realized I smurfed up the title. :p

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Originally Posted by Pete for President

Looking forward to the inevitable Jimquisition episode about this nonsense.

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Here it is, as predicted :roll2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7EI9YCsuBQ

Shameless. Pre-Order "bonuses" (cutting content that was going to be the game anyway) are bad enough at the best of times without this drivel. It amounts to "If enough of you don't buy the game we'll take things out of it that have already been made, so there!" Unless, of course, you wish to pay even more than the $60 you already gave us for it...

They best not be pulling this trout with FFXV. I appreciate it's a different arm of Square-Enix but still.

Preorder is always bulltrout.

You guys who often preorder games brought this on yourselves (too bad you dragged other people down with you).

I never pre-order games. Spares all this crap. But this does just take the biscuit. It really doesn't present a 'friendly' atmosphere towards gamers.

Preordering games is one the most ridiculous practices. All you're doing is deliberately letting them divert resources from the main game into creating hype. Because....you like being hyped. With the exception of physical mediums which might be of limited supply, that's literally all preordering ever is.

The only time I've ever done it is if I've found a game for a really cheap price for preorder and I'm 90% sure it'll be a decent game. So I've bought it in advance in case I can no longer find it for a good price on release.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Preorder is always bulltrout.

You guys who often preorder games brought this on yourselves (too bad you dragged other people down with you).

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That and the popularity of Kickstarter and the big gaming companies wanting to get in on the action.

I appreciate that this ... is crazy. But I think people are being their own sort of crazy in response to it. Perhaps I'm missing something, but games are always $60USD, and collector editions always come with bonuses. This is offering the $60USD with a few collector edition bonuses for free for showing support. Granted, it's not what was done with The Witcher, but no big company is going to do that. It costs too much money to make things for free. At least they're not pushing season pass BS like most of the other publishers. Not to mention, I've seen this sort of thing on Steam leading up to game launches multiple times. Tomb Raider springs to mind, another Square-published game. But I think it was done with one of the Assassin's Creeds, and Bioshock Infinite if memory serves me as well. And of course it was done with the previous Deus Ex game. And nobody really flipped out over it back then. Why now? Just because it's being done on console?

I mean, I get how bad pre-order culture is hurting the game's industry, and something needs to be done. But maybe I'm brainwashed. We're getting a little extra content for no extra money. And unless things have changed since last I looked, it's not even anything critical. No actual DLC Expansion. Just some outfits and music and stuff. Nothing necessary at all from what I gathered. But, again, I'm obviously missing something

I have no intention of pre-ordering regardless. I have games on the horizon I have to budget for, and I didn't enjoy Human Revolution enough to justify it. But if the developers of the games I'm planning on buying offered free stuff, I'd certainly be more likely to start putting money down early, rather than saving up

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

They best not be pulling this trout with FFXV.

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I'd put my house on it.

Aaaand it's cancelled: https://twitter.com/DeusEx/status/649570097980379136

All's well that ends well.

Oh, Square, you never cease to amuse me.

So in the end they have opted to give everyone the content? Bloody hell, didn't expect that as a response. Good job, gamers, and good response, SE. I never did understand why certain regions got one kind of content while others got something else. Giving everyone everything should be the standard.

I don't have a problem with pre-order bonuses, though. Stuff like bonus guns or bonus skins etc. just aren't something I care enough to purchase using DLC or through pre-order, but I appreciate the rewarding of people who are investing the full cost of the game without being able to test it out or get reviews from trusted friends. So if I get a pre-order bonus, I'm happy. If I don't think it's worth the extra cost, I wait and pay the lower cost. Pre-order bonuses is a practice I feel is perfectly fine.

My first problem is that they're taking content out of the game that would've been in there ten years ago before pre-order culture ramped up. It's not like DLC where the artists don't have anything extra to do. This is stuff that is announced months in advance of the game's release. It's not an extra side bonus, it's base content that should be in there and it's being locked out. I don't care if it's something "trivial" like a gun or a skin. I'm being punished by having aspects of the game locked out - even if I purchase at full price on launch day, having quite reasonably waited for reviews to see whether the game is a stinker or a buggy mess - and that's not acceptable.

And what about pre-order bonuses that are carved up among different retailers? When the FFVII remake drops, you can bet there'll be something like go to Amazon for the Cloud SOLDIER skin, go to Best Buy to get the Buster Sword pack, buy at Wal Mart to get the Water Materia. If I want all of those items I have to buy three copies of the game. Or I would (I wouldn't) but two of those retailers don't even exist in my country. It's an anti-consumer mess.

Yeah, I'm pretty much with Psy on this one. When it gets to be as small as something like a skin I don't really care enough myself to be honest, but he's still pretty much right. :p

Yeah I'm not crying any tears over losing a skin - the issue is more that we're needlessly being restricted. Metal Gear Solid V is a great example. Throughout the previous games in the series you'd get a James Bond style tuxedo as a reward for completing the game. It was a neat little extra that made your next playthrough a bit more fun. In MGS3 it even gave you some camoflage in dark areas! It was a nice little detail and a traditional reward to look forward to. You can also get the tuxedo for MGSV... except now it's DLC and you have to pay for it. My world isn't shattered, but I've still lost an enjoyable little extra that I would've had before this culture became a thing.

I also appreciate that my example isn't perfect as it's DLC and not a pre-order bonus but I think it illustrates nicely how we're losing content.

It all comes down to how you look at it, I guess, and of course it comes down to the game as well. Think of any game out there that has DLC / pre-order bonuses. Now imagine it never had them. Nor was that content included in the game. It simply didn't exist.

Was it still worth your money? If so, DLC + pre-orders aren't bad for that game.

While pre-order bonuses and DLC may be a bit over the top in a lot of cases, that's down to the people who are actually spending money on these things. Pre-order bonuses I spend money on sometimes, but rarely. It's even rarer that I spend money on DLC. I just simply take the game for what it is. And compared to the old games I had before pre-order bonuses and DLC came into being a thing? For me, and the games I play? The games are still generally better. RPGs may be the exception, but that's nothing to do with DLC so much as overall gameplay quality just not being as high as it was in 1997.

I don't really accept the argument about games being better than 1997 and therefore pre-order bonuses are acceptable. Firstly we're not getting any more enjoyment out of the games than we did in 1997 (perhaps less enjoyment even, given how older we all are now!) because the game was good for 1997 and the relative quality is the same. Who didn't play any of the PSOne FFs or FFX and go "omg look at dem GRAPHICS!" and be amazed at what would now be considered an utter dog turd of a spectacle? But also because many brand spanking new games of 2015 that are awesome and incredible don't have pre-order bonuses and still give you the full content!

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Think of any game out there that has DLC / pre-order bonuses. Now imagine it never had them. Nor was that content included in the game. It simply didn't exist.

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It does exist, though, and it would've done if pre-order bonuses didn't exist either. They're carving out chunks from an already complete game. You can give me a melon with a few holes you spooned out of it and I'll still enjoy the melon, but it doesn't mean the melon wouldn't have been better if you hadn't taken a ruddy great spoon to it.

Pre-orders aren't bad in theory. DLC isn't bad in theory. But the the way the AAA game industry are abusing this, what essentially is a great idea - it's not acceptable.

In this very example, extra missions for this game (a game that hasn't even been released yet so why couldn't it just be included in the finished product?) were being locked away from paying customers because they chose not to preorder the game. Sure, they'll be released as extra DLC whenever but it'll be like £10 a pop. Consumers are being punished for not throwing down their money before the game is released.

This isn't just skins and weapon mods - this is sections of game. Sections of game that are ready to play on the day of release. But only if you are willing to pay up front.

So don't buy the extra stuff. *shrug* And honestly, beforehand never had the development of the scale we see today.

I don't *like* DLC that much, but I do believe that if it were completely cut, all these games wouldn't suddenly have all the extra stuff included by default at the same price. To anyone who thinks that, I'll point to all the threads about game developers going out of business, games bombing horrifically after years of development, etc. Now, you can say "That's the fault of those particular games" but just as easily can I say "and if you want companies and employees to survive such misses, you have to let them milk the hits."

If it's just stuff like skins etc, I don't give a rat's arse if they're DLC. Back in the day we didn't have them and I didn't care. Bonus guns? You don't need them, they're completely unnecessary and most games already have a ridiculous number of guns in them by default anyway. What else... bonus quests? Well, that's where I start to question things, I suppose, but I just don't bother buying them and it makes no difference to me. If I get them for free for buying the game on day one then that's an awesome bonus that I get for paying full release price instead of waiting for pre-owned games to hit the shelves. If you want 100% of the original game content then be prepared to pay 100% of the original price. If that's done through pre-order bonuses or free day one DLC that requires codes, I don't mind out of the two (and often pre-order bonuses for low sale games end up being easy to grab off the shelf with the original game).

Do I like DLC? No. Do I like pre-order bonuses? Yeah - they're included in the base price of the game. Do I care enough that I feel DLC takes away from a game? No - if I don't feel the original game was worth the money I spent on it and then some, I wouldn't pay for the DLC. People who think that games, regardless of quality, should all come out at the same price and that should include everything in the game? That I find interesting. As far as I'm concerned, not all games have a quality value of £39.99. To others I'm sure they all deserve to be £9.99 or less, but that's just the balancing act that developers, publishers and retailers have to consider when it comes to how many units they want to sell.

It's just so rare that I've ever been genuinely annoyed at DLC, and even rarer that I'm annoyed at pre-order bonuses. I think they may take the piss a bit sometimes (day one priced DLC the worst of it, I'd say, and this DE pre-order nonsense), sure, but no more than I think a lot of developers out there take the piss by pretending that their £39.99 game is actually worth the same £39.99 that the best video games out there are worth. "But Daniel, some sell more!" - So? I'm not the one buying all of them. I can only say how much each game is worth to me and these games are not equal.

I would most definitely take GTA V out-of-the-box, no-extras over similar games from before the pre-order and DLC era.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

It all comes down to how you look at it, I guess, and of course it comes down to the game as well. Think of any game out there that has DLC / pre-order bonuses. Now imagine it never had them. Nor was that content included in the game. It simply didn't exist.

Was it still worth your money? If so, DLC + pre-orders aren't bad for that game.

While pre-order bonuses and DLC may be a bit over the top in a lot of cases, that's down to the people who are actually spending money on these things. Pre-order bonuses I spend money on sometimes, but rarely. It's even rarer that I spend money on DLC. I just simply take the game for what it is. And compared to the old games I had before pre-order bonuses and DLC came into being a thing? For me, and the games I play? The games are still generally better. RPGs may be the exception, but that's nothing to do with DLC so much as overall gameplay quality just not being as high as it was in 1997.

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This is a trout argument and you should be embarrased.

I genuinely believe it and have no embarrassment over it. I just don't think much about DLC at all and focus on the base game.

And the only people who should be embarrassed in this topic are those that spend money on DLC and don't like DLC. If you don't like it, do what I do: Don't buy it.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I don't *like* DLC that much, but I do believe that if it were completely cut, all these games wouldn't suddenly have all the extra stuff included by default at the same price.

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Read my example about Metal Gear Solid V.

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To anyone who thinks that, I'll point to all the threads about game developers going out of business, games bombing horrifically after years of development, etc.

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Five Nights at Freddy's cost how much to make and made how much? Minecraft cost how much to make and made how much? If you do a Square-Enix and spend millions on hi tech graphic engines that consumers aren't interested in, yes, you will lose money. It's simple supply and demand and yes companies will lose money if they put out poor products. Likewise you're seeing a growing consumer backlash to companies employing these practices.

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Do I like pre-order bonuses? Yeah - they're included in the base price of the game.

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No, they're not. As I've said, I could buy a game on the day of launch at full price, the same price as someone who has pre-ordered. Therefore the bonus is not included in the price of the game.

You can say "Ah but you should've pre-ordered". Nonsense. There is no benefit to the customer to reserve a copy of any game (rare collector's editions notwithstanding). They're not going to run out of copies, especially with digital distribution. A sensible consumer would wait until journalists and critics they trusted had got their hands on it and provided a review score to make sure it's not a piece of trout. I would point you in the direction of many Triple A games which have released in an awful and buggy state - Assassin's Creed Unity and Arkham Knight are two examples in the past twelve months. Indeed, the new Tony Hawk game got released this week and is an unplayable piece of trout. Pre-Orders mean that game developers have no incentive not to do this trout. They've already got their money and can release a buggy piece of crap and then patch it weeks later. It's unacceptable.

Educate yourself:

I don't know if you can call something a "base game", when the devs have actively chopped out story missions that currently exist and will be available day one, so they can lock them behind a pay wall. Because it sounds to me that it's the "base game" minus whatever the heck the dev thinks they can get away with. :shrug:

Pre-order bonuses are but a stone's throw away from 'XP microtransactions'. You know, the stuff that lets you level faster/skip parts of the game/unlock stuff earlier in the game if you pay real money for the privilege. The defence for those is similar: "If you don't like it, don't buy it!" "This allows people who don't have time to play the game to still enjoy the game!" Back in the day of course this all used to be taken care of with cheat codes. Or, you know, just non-trout game design.

The current AAA industry has inherited a ridiculous gold mine with this pre-order stuff, because it doesn't face the same stigma that other forms of DLC and microtransactions do. It used to be that pre-orders made sense - there would be limited stock, you needed to make sure you reserved a copy. But even then, most outlets wouldn't make you pay full price before release, you'd just put down a deposit and then pay the difference when you picked up your game. Stock problems don't really exist any more; certainly not with games backed by a major publisher like SE. But because the practice already existed, certain people in the industry were able to exploit it and warp it into something awful.

Here are my main objections to pre-order bonuses:

1. It is insulting to the people who don't pre-order. I will pay the same price for a less complete game, just because I had the cheek to make sure the game wasn't broken or terrible before buying it.
2. It is insulting to people who do pre-order. Make no mistake, from the point of view of an executive the loyal fans who pre-order are the suckers. In horrible F2P terms they are the 'whales'; the gullible people who can be enticed to drop cash - sometimes huge quantities of cash - sight unseen with the promise of exclusive shiny things.
3. It creates confirmation bias within many people who pre-order. When you've invested money in an unreleased product and thus a product of unknown quality, you are gambling. People like winning gambles, and they don't like feeling they've been duped. So many will evangelise and defend the game to others, or at the very least they will tend not to ask for a refund if the product is bad because doing so would be an admission of failure. In short, once you've put money into something you are invested in its success.
4. It reduces the incentive to create a quality product. If you can make a huge amount of money before anyone can assess how good your game is, you don't need your game to be all that good to sell it.
5. It takes resource off the full product. This isn't universally true - sometimes publishers will generally invest more capital 'on top of' what was already earmarked for the main game, purely to create pre-order incentives. These situations are not common though - it's usually cheaper to just make the full game and then say "what can we lock behind a pre-order incentive?" It's almost impossible to tell whether or not a pre-order bonus is a genuine 'bonus' or not.

In short, it's bulltrout. Absolute bulltrout and I'm glad this particular case was stomped out like it was.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

No, they're not. As I've said, I could buy a game on the day of launch at full price, the same price as someone who has pre-ordered. Therefore the bonus is not included in the price of the game.

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You misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm saying that I don't have to pay any additional fee for them. I have no complaints about getting them when I do pre-order. I don't have any complaints about not getting pre-order bonuses when I don't pre-order, because I have yet to experience a single game where I felt the pre-order bonuses were the difference between me really feeling the worth of the money spent on said game. If a game isn't good enough on it's own, then it's not good enough. Bonuses or no bonuses be damned.

"But I'm not getting the full game! They cut all this stuff out that could have been in the base game!" - What, you didn't invest so you can't dress the character in skin #22? You can't use the marginally different shotgun from the other three shotguns you've got? You don't get to experience the game two days earlier? You don't get x amount of currency free, allowing you to not experience the game as it was intended (ie, earn your own damned in-game currency)?

Oh no.

Sorry, with that kind of stuff I just don't feel it's a problem at all. I've stated beforehand that when it's bonus missions etc. that I start to question things.

They got away with weapon skins because people say "oh no" in italics. Now they're seeing what bigger and better items they can get away with. In the case of Alien: Isolation you could only play as Ripley, the main smurfing character, and do her missions if you pre-ordered. Oh no indeed.

Indeed, see the pre-order bonuses this very thread is about...

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I've stated beforehand that when it's bonus missions etc. that I start to question things.

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This is what is literally happening right now on a regular basis.

Although many people say "Don't like it, don't do it", people are still pre-ordering and so what content can be cut out without people kicking up too much fuss will continue to be pushed.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

They got away with weapon skins because people say "oh no" in italics. Now they're seeing what bigger and better items they can get away with. In the case of Alien: Isolation you could only play as Ripley, the main smurfing character, and do her missions if you pre-ordered. Oh no indeed.

Indeed, see the pre-order bonuses this very thread is about...

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I've already stated earlier that I'm glad that the fans stood up about the DE:MD stuff and that SE changed it.

As for the Ripley thing, how was she the main character if you could only play as her via pre-order? Either way, that too, is bad.

But just like a race shouldn't be determined by the actions of individuals, nor should pre-order bonuses be declared inherently bad because various developers are doing them wrong for some games.

Again, I rarely pre-order, and I never pre-order because of bonuses. I've never judged a game by it's pre-order content.

Pre-order bonuses are inherently bad because it is of no benefit to the customer in any way to put down money for a game sight unseen and the use of psychological manipulation, creating "haves" and "have-nots" in order to achieve this is a disingenuous business practice, creating short-term gains for the industry at the expense of its longer term reputation with its customers. As well as the wider issue that, as I have stated, games are now more regularly released in a broken state or alternatively trailers for games (see Watch_Dogs, Aliens: Colonial Marines, Infamous Second Son) use false footage, outright lying to people in order to acquire pre-orders.

You mentioned companies going under, I can't understand why you don't see that underhanded business practices like this are a contributing factor. Too many people have been burned now.

While not all games have lots of bonus things like alternate outfits, modes and other easter eggs, it is my experience at the game series/studios who generally did put things like these into their PS1 and PS2 games (and other consoles from that time and before) have very steadily decreased the amount of these bonus things while releasing more and tiny DLC packs.

I mean I can't prove that a game has had its content cut, but please don't tell me it's a coincidence that Super Mega Adventure XI has one alternate costume and 20 DLC costumes, while Super Mega Adventure V had 10 included in the game.

Or Turbo Dogfight 3 has 5 bonus "joke" aircrafts while Turbo Dogfight 7 has 0, but 5 offered as DLC.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

They got away with weapon skins because people say "oh no" in italics. Now they're seeing what bigger and better items they can get away with. In the case of Alien: Isolation you could only play as Ripley, the main smurfing character, and do her missions if you pre-ordered. Oh no indeed.

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Heh, glad I got that used. Though it's kind of sad how quickly a copy with the Ellen Ripley content was being sold at Game Stop...

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I don't have a problem with pre-order bonuses, though. Stuff like bonus guns or bonus skins etc. just aren't something I care enough to purchase using DLC or through pre-order, but I appreciate the rewarding of people who are investing the full cost of the game without being able to test it out or get reviews from trusted friends. So if I get a pre-order bonus, I'm happy. If I don't think it's worth the extra cost, I wait and pay the lower cost. Pre-order bonuses is a practice I feel is perfectly fine.

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Ouch, this hurts man : / I don't think anyone should ever give a developer trust before they deliver. Hyping is alright, but remember the days when all those bonuses were unlockables and used to keep playing the game longer, provide replay value, or were implemented for fun and thus delivering a better product? Locking content behind bars until you pay up is a scam for money no matter how you look at it.

I recommend watching some of these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4JCFONptk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsgoD74vLIo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmNjpd6IvWY

You're missing the most important vid of all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV69DyOuzbE

Eh. I just don't feel it's this major issue. I agree that certain types of content are an issue, and I agree that a lot of DLC is utter balls, but pre-order bonuses I'm just not so concerned about. The developers, publishers and retailers get more money from pre-ordered games and day one purchases than they do from pre-owned resales. I mean, do the developers get any money from pre-owned resales? I dunno. Either way, I do feel that the developer should reward those who are willing to shell out for the full price of the game. *shrug* And I say that despite buying a number of games pre-owned. I simply don't care that I missed out on character and weapon skins. If it's major content then as I've said, I agree, that's a bad thing. But meeeeeh. I'll agree to disagree with you guys on "all pre-order bonuses are inherently bad."

I haven't watched many of the various videos that have been provided (I've watched a couple) because I prefer reading to listening. If you're like me, then these two articles present good views from different angles.

http://kotaku.com/marketing-retailer...off-1635622765
http://kotaku.com/5909105/stop-preor...o-games-please

EDIT: I guess you could say that the best thing that could possibly happen to the pre-order system itself is for consumers to take every opportunity to cut out the retailers, who are the biggest driving force behind this. If you could buy every product digitally from the developer or publisher at an equal (or lower) price, this problem would probably decrease notably. I doubt that will be happening any time too soon, mostly because of pricing.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Either way, I do feel that the developer should reward those who are willing to shell out for the full price of the game. *shrug*

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Well then we definitely need to scrap pre-order bonuses, because a lot of those come with discounts. '10% off if you pre-order/pre-purchase' is very common these days. So if what we're trying to reward is paying full price for the game, pre-order customers who get a discount should have content removed from the game. It's only fair.

If it's rewarding full price customers that is the important thing, then let's have 'full price' bonus - "Pay the full RRP to get new skins!" I still have a million problems with that, but at least it wouldn't hurt people who had the cheek to wait for reviews to come out before putting their money down. Encouraging people to blindly throw money at something unproven is pretty sleazy - as a developer I want people to buy my games because we've made a good game, not because we've overhyped something. And that's a key point as well - when you put money down for pre-orders you're putting money down for the game the publisher is promising you. "This is going to be the best game ever," they will say. And they'll show you all the really cool bits in the trailers. But they won't show you something representative.

Not all pre-order bonuses are particularly harmful individually, but they are all very harmful collectively. Because publishers are always going to try and push the limits, try to squeeze as much money out before the game is even finished as the possibly can. So when our default position is "weapon skins are fine as pre-order bonus content," then they're going to start seeing what else we'll accept. What about a weapon stat boost? That OK? Yeah? Then how about a whole new weapon, can you stomach that? Still paying? OK, how about a weapon pack? How about some new armour? How about a new NPC? Why not a new mission? Wouldn't you like an exclusive story prologue?

It's that kind of approach that has led to this situation of every other big budget game having microtransactions and DLC store. Give them an inch...

If you like the idea so much Daniel, then I suggest they make two versions. One that has everything and costs 60 bucks for us who hate preorder dlc bulltrout, and one that has 80% and costs 60 bucks just for you ;D

That makes no sense, but whatever. xD I have and always will judge a game by how good it is, not what bonuses I get. If it's good enough to justify the cost without the bonuses, then bonuses are just bonuses. If it's not good enough, it's not good enough.

My personal opinion is that everything that is obtained at the base price should come with everything included, absolutely. Almost every game that has had pre-order bonuses that I did not pre-order, I was still able to get with the pre-order bonuses when buying off the shelf on day one (or even month one) when the game was still at full price.

And again, it all depends on what the pre-orders actually are, and I will continue to not give a rat's arse about any non-gameplay bonuses (ie, skins).

I felt this was hitting some points we have been saying!

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

That makes no sense

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exactly.

anyway the problem is that these practices encourage the dismantling of games into the most bare-bone product that they think they can get away with. and at the same time, they try to make gamers believe that it's "fine" because those who care for games that aren't just skin and bones can pay for meat as dlc.

before, a game that didn't have a lot of content was slaughtered because they didn't have a lot of content. now, gamers and the gaming press practically wait in line to make up excuses for them, just to justify their own terrible judgement that made them pre-order to get all the pretend-shinies

if you think there are any limits for how far game devs will try to push this trend, you are very mistaken. The only thing that will stop game developers and/or publishers to take this trend to the absolute extreme, is a counter-force in the form of consumer backlash. That means people like us being very vocal about how full of trout they are, instead of accepting the trout and getting so used to it that you literally don't notice that you're up to your nose in it.

you say you're fine with cosmetic pre-order bonuses and dlc, but not fine with entire stages or characters/vehicles/whatever? Well, what do you think they started with? this is a gradual process. First, they noticed they could get away with things like costumes being locked behind a preorder/dlc wall. Then they noticed that people got used to this, and then they noticed that they clould also get away with entire stages locked out. If people get used to one locked out stage or character, do you really think they won't try with two locked out stages next time?

You should never get used to it, because that just means you're ready for the next consumer-unfriendly move they've got in store.

So draw the line at "non-cosmetic pre-order bonuses." I just don't see why bonuses full stop need to be annihilated or something. There's a reason pre-orders exist in the retail world, as detailed in the earlier Kotaku article.

If you want to get rid of pre-order bonuses, stop buying games from retailers. Hell, if everyone purchased direct from publishers, the price from the publisher might even drop! But it'll never happen because people like buying their games on the cheap, and retailers are the ones dictating the pre-orders, and retailers are also the ones where you get the games on the cheap.

Do you know what a prisoner's dilemma is? You can't just stop pre-ordering individually; everyone would have to collectively stop pre-ordering. If you stop and no one else does, you're even worse off (if you care about the bonuses) than if you continued.

The worst possible outcome for any individual is to stop pre-ordering individually without anyone else doing it. And the only thing any individual can control is their own actions. So all you can really do is be sad that the industry puts you in this stupid situation.

Luckily for me, I don't actually care about almost any pre-order bonuses, or this subject would make me livid.

Now you, too, can look like a pillock:

http://deusex.musterbrand.com/lookbook

(for one easy payment of £219)

edit: also release date pushed back a year, cheers for all your preorder cash

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

So draw the line at "non-cosmetic pre-order bonuses." I just don't see why bonuses full stop need to be annihilated or something. There's a reason pre-orders exist in the retail world, as detailed in the earlier Kotaku article.

If you want to get rid of pre-order bonuses, stop buying games from retailers. Hell, if everyone purchased direct from publishers, the price from the publisher might even drop! But it'll never happen because people like buying their games on the cheap, and retailers are the ones dictating the pre-orders, and retailers are also the ones where you get the games on the cheap.

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So what if I draw the line there? That doesn't mean trout as long certain other people just drown them in money at the mere glimpse of a binary string they've been told "only a few" will be able to put into their game.

There is no such thing as actually exclusive goods in the digital world. In the real world, items are exclusive because there simply isn't enough gold or diamonds (or saffron or whatever) in the world to give everyone one. That's why someone can not get it and are therefore excluded. For digital goods, there is no limit because you can make an infinite amount of copies of anything, and things are only exclusive because the developer or publisher has arbitrary decided that "this isn't for everyone and we want to milk the rich and smurf over those who aren't as rich". I dislike one of those types of exclusivity because one stems from actual resource scarceness and the other stems from pure greed. Have you seen what they sell the "full game" for these days? It's nearly a hundred bucks in some cases. The stripped down versions are of course sold for the filthy peasants who can only scrape together enough to buy the stripped down version of the game.

Furthermore, preorder bonuses aren't exclusive to retail stores anymore. You find them on lots of digital preorders too.

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Originally Posted by Old Manus

edit: also release date pushed back a year, cheers for all your preorder cash

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D: srsly?