I see this so much in the gaming community and I don't get it??? Water levels are great??? Also mermaids???
Please explain this to me, EoFFers who hate water levels.
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I see this so much in the gaming community and I don't get it??? Water levels are great??? Also mermaids???
Please explain this to me, EoFFers who hate water levels.
The water levels in Mario 64 were some of my favourite in that game.
I actually really like most water levels
Wasn't it the Water Temple in OoT and the fact that you could easily get lost in it what ruined water levels forever?
I don't know what people are referring to, but I'll say poor swimming controls are a big factor. Combine that with the overused gameplay features of limited oxygen and only being able to access certain surfacing points and you have a recipe for not fun.
I think this was a big thing. OoT was one of the first really big Platform 3D RPGs and if you didn't do it in the right order for the Water Temple and then saved, you were screwed and your whole file was now locked out and you couldn't finish the game. So a lot have residual hate from that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Plus you had other games that gave time limits in water, like for Instance, Sonic had it. A lot of people got frustrated at more complicated aspects having time limits like that.
:gator:
I like most water levels, personally. I wish there was more to the water level in WoW :( Was sad they didn't push that one more.
Still, water levels are amazing if done right. The Great Cistern in Skyward Sword is one of the most memorable dungeons in the whole Zelda series to me
Attachment 68088Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
I think the bigger issue is that water levels tend to involve a change in controls and if they are not prevalent enough, then they are a hassle because you're learning a set of controls for one level/location/ section of a game so it can be a bit upsetting to get your groove screwed over. I know that's why I hate Atlantica in KH1 for instance.
It never helps that these scenarios are generally more realistic about things, i.e. you're slow and your movement is limited, everything trying to kill you is in its natural environment and can move in ridiculous directions because they have better maneuverability. Not to mention these stages also tend to have rules you never had to deal with like keeping oxygen levels up.
For Zelda games, the real issue with Water Temples is that most of them involve long-winded switch puzzles where you have to remember multiple elements just to get out of the dungeon and it's easy to hit the wrong switch and force yourself to start the whole puzzle over again. I feel the reason why the Water Temple in Skyward Sword is my favorite is precisely because it's not this style of dungeon (that would be the Time Factory in the Desert) so I feel it has more to do with that.
Water levels are such a massive break in comparison to standard gameplay that it makes it not fun at all once you encounter them.
On a developer level, there's too many games, where water combat or water gameplay is thrown in as though it's an after thought. The controls wind up being not nearly as polished as the rest of the game, which breaks player immersion trying to get used to new controls. Unless game developers really focus on making water levels or underwater combat feel smooth, it invariably feels terrible. This is an especially common problem with MMOs (e.g., Guild Wars 2). If the water isn't meant to be played in, water is lava, and it damages you or is a functional wall. That should be your first big tell that the developer just doesn't want to deal with it (smartly so, I'd add).
The over-used underwater tropes, such as moving slower or having limited dive time are also intensely unfun. Who wants to move at 50% of your movement speed in water, when you could move at 100% or higher of your movement speed above ground? Seriously, anything that makes me slower than normal is comparable to contracting AIDS. Doesn't matter if it's an ARPG, a racing game, a platformer, or JRPG. Don't make me slower, and I'm certainly not the only person who feels that way.
Limited breather time just reinforces a previous point: water play is atypical and you're not supposed to be there, no matter how generous that timer really is.
Altered movement mechanics, such as not being able to stop yourself are also pretty annoying to learn how to play around. An example here is Super Mario Sunshine, where underwater, any momentum gained is preserved, which means if you want to stop moving, you have to turn around while blasting the water nozzle. Combine that with the occasional clunky player input and a non-cooperating camera, and you have a sure-fire terrible experience worth remembering. On land, when I stop tapping the control stick, my character stops with a relatively short response time.
And if there's a puzzle associated with ending the nightmare that is called "under water exploration," you can be sure, most people hated it.
Wow, I have been planning to make this exact thread for a couple days now. :lol:
I believe that one reason can actually be something as simple as the fact that water is an unnatural habitat for us.
When we navigate water stages we have to control the characters in a way that feels less intuitive, because we haven't evolved for living underwater, which can make it hard to control the characters properly.
This could also be the reason why a lot of us tend to prefer plain/grassland stages - they feel more familiar to our land-living brains, and we feel more "at home" on those kinds of stages.
However, I do actually tend to enjoy the atmosphere on water stages.
I don't think anybody can deny that the underwater stages in Donkey Kong Country are incredibly beautiful and soothing, and the music on those stages adds a lot to that atmosphere as well.
I don't *hate* water levels. This has already been pointed out, but I just don't like the controls usually. Often the character moves in a really annoying, janky fashion. Where it's like LUNGE float LUNGE float
It may be preferable to have underwater characters being controlled kinda like the ships in scroller shooters - that is, you move them with the control pad, and if you don't do anything they will stay still.
This would also allow the jump button (which is normally used for swimming) to be used for something else, possibly a speed increase by holding it down or something.
One good example of this kind of control scheme is Frog Mario in Super Mario Bros 3, that suit actually made the water stages quite enjoyable;
and really, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to not use those controls, they are perfect and very intuitive.
They're spooky.
I think the water levels in Spyro 2 work. He's not all that much slower and its almost like he can fly for longer. There's some fun mini games for winning orbs too.
Crash Bandicoot 3 didn't do it as well but, eh, it was okay I guess.
I hated anytime I had to send Lara Croft underwater, she's a real pain in the ass.
I don't get it and I never experienced these bad controls in water levels except in Drill Dozer which was one of the worst levels I've played in any game. Fynn are you sure you can get locked out from beating the game in Ocarina of Time's water dungeon? I never encountered that myself even when I forgot to play Zelda's Lullaby at one particular level.
They provide a change of pace in the gameplay and variety, so keep on making those levels out there developers.
The one thing I like about water levels is that they are usually accompanied with some of the best music tracks in the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDvKwSVuUGAQuote:
Originally Posted by Vermachtnis
Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermachtnis
Hyrule Warriors has a water level?
I mean, it's the Water Temple. So kind of?
Yep. There's even a water-level "puzzle" in the Legend Mode scenario that takes place in the temple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeYep. There's even a water-level "puzzle" in the Legend Mode scenario that takes place in the temple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
I just can't imagine swimming and slashing in that type of game. What does it look like?
You don't swim. The Water Temple is drained. Hence the 'kind of'.
There is no swimming. The water level just completely blocks off some sections until you lower it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression MoonQuote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeYep. There's even a water-level "puzzle" in the Legend Mode scenario that takes place in the temple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
I just can't imagine swimming and slashing in that type of game. What does it look like?
Attachment 68089
Just to confirm, you can't get "locked out" of the OoT Water Temple, Nintendo would never allow that to happen, but you can make it very smurfing difficult for yourself.
I firmly believe that this water temple has given a bad press to every other water temple in RPG history.
They're actually pretty great. The water temples in both ALTTP and ALBW were smurfing fantastic.
The countdown music still makes me anxious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
>implying 40 Fathoms/Wreck of Maria Doria/The Deck aren't three of the GOAT Tomb Raider levels
Attachment 68124
The sheer tenacity to have you start a level underwater with no idea where to go and about 20 seconds on your oxygen meter. You just don't get design decisions like that these days.
Look how close that (presumably instant kill) shark is!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
Tomb Raider: Underworld also begins with a water level, albeit after a very brief tutorial.
Underworld doesn't start with you forcibly underwater though, with no way to regain your limited oxygen!
I think it's the combination of having to navigate differently after several hours of building muscle memory and managing a timed resource.
oh man i had totally blocked that tomb raider 2 out of my head smurf that level it ruined MY LIFE
im seriously afraid of sharks.. i have no idea why, but i am.
ffs Old Manus
Attachment 68124
I think this Tomb Raiders game where you had to dive to the upside-down sunk ship was the first game/level that really made me nervous
so any underwater scene/level in a game just really gets me nervous.
especially these days when the games look so good and realistic
Tomb Raider was pretty unforgiving with its water levels at times.
I don't much care for the water level in the first Super Mario Brothers game either because of the fish. Smurf the fish.
Aside from that I don't have much trouble with them.