The Five Reasons Final Fantasy Failed Worse than Any Other Franchises.
Granted I feel Capcom has a worse track record than SE, but the man makes several valid points. Thoughts?
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The Five Reasons Final Fantasy Failed Worse than Any Other Franchises.
Granted I feel Capcom has a worse track record than SE, but the man makes several valid points. Thoughts?
Three and four apply only to XIII, considering how long their have been spin offs, and no one has ever cared. Games have still sold very well up until now. Absolutely none of FF VII needs the spin off games to fully comprehend and enjoy (Or hate), so that doesn't really apply to FF VII at all.
The Idea that a game is failing because of fan service? I really, really doubt this. Plenty of games sell well with fan service in them.
...And that last point the focus on lazy cash ins. Okay, I can kind of see the point here, but yeah. It's not something that will kill a series. I mean hell, FF VII's fanbase after cash in after cash in of it's name haven't ruined it's popularity in the least.
Perhaps, and this is just an educated guess, is it's failing a bit now because the games they are releasing suck? Just a thought. :p
Well I certainly disagree with the statement that FFXV sounds like more overwrought nonsense :p
I would argue the article is really more about the franchise's image more than anything. Though I would agree that the game design criticism is lacking, also the fanservice in the series has been growing steadily more tasteless as the series gets older and I'm pretty sure most of the female fanbase would prefer if the female leads wore something more practical than leggings, hot pants and a piece of armor with a nice boob window added onto to it.
Also, while VII itself is pretty self-contained, it's now been attached to the Frankenstein monstrosity that is the Compilation, and you can bet your ass the remake is going to make the old game fit neatly inline with that steamy pile of excrement.So while it's easy to think you can just play the original and ignore the rest, the Compilation is bound to pop in the conversation eventually. Likely by a know-it-all fanboy who reads the Ultimania books before bed every night. It's nearly impossible to break the original from it's cancerous expansion series anymore.
As for FFXV sounding overwrought, well considering we don't know much about the story, and considering what it's coming after, it's not a far fetched feeling to believe the game won't be filled with silly acronyms and buzzword titles to explain away its world. That trend has been around since FFVI, so no reason to believe it's going to magically disappear in this entry.
I'm not saying it'll disappear, but I think it looks more manageable than what the XIII series gave us (l'Cie? Pulse? And what the hell
Is a vestige?) XIII didn't really know what to do with the plot - so do we destroy the world or save it? Idk, lets pad the whole game by rambling about our feelings!
Spoilers from the 50 minute gameplay videoFrom the initial 50 minutes of gameplay, XV does feel more together. There's a clear goal - visit the tombs of previous kings to gain the relics so that you can regain your thrown. Most other FFs begin with simple goals that later get twisted around, so I'd figure we can expect that here as well. And then there's the character interaction that actually looks genuine and human compared to XIII's forced melodrama.
Yeah, I think it's safe to assume it'll be at least decent.
And the male fanbase would like it if our main characters look vaguely like males.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
"Tasteless" is such a ridiculous criticism, WK. There has always been fanservice, they just have better technology to express it these days.
Now, let's look at this article, keeping in mind Cracked hasn't been credible or respected in years.
4. "Let's sum up the entire game in a sentence then let's write a detailed paragraph about XIII's opening to make it seem more convoluted."
Okay, how about this. FFVII starts with AVALANCHE attacking a Mako Reactor where an ex-member of SOLDIER is helping them destroy the place because it's sucking up all the Mako Energy which is this stuff in the Planet that keeps the Planet going.
True, a bit too much was happening in XIII's opening but that was the least of its problems. It just needed ab it more exposition to actually explain what was happeningm like when Barret explains why the hell they are there and blowing up this place.
3. Both Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy XIII tell perfectly self-contained stories.
Also who the hell has to play Type-0?
2. Lightning and her game suck but she isn't the only representative of the series. The next game doesn't even feature a female player character so what are they complaining about with oversexualized heroines?
Surprisingly, I am with you on this. You can make any game sound more or less convoluted depending on your word choice. So the other FFs were insanely simplified (sometimes even dead-wrong), while XIII was purposefully presented in the most confusing manner possible. And I am saying this as a person who does consider XIII to be a bad game largely in part to its poorly presented story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Still, I like reading Cracked a whole lot, even if individual writers and their styles and opinions don't always sit well with me.
Yeah, I liked Cracked articles, though I've not been reading them as much than I used to. I stick more to their experiences articles and funny fact ones over the more 'this is my opinion, suck it' articles, though they can be good as well.
As for the criticisms of Final Fantasy? For #5, I partly agree, though the guy's assessment that 'everything beyond FFX has been mediocre or awful' isn't really hitting the mark for me. I thought FFXII was a solid entry, and while I would definitely call FFXIII mediocre, I wouldn't say it was irredeemably awful. I don't know much about FFXI, but while FFXIV was bungled, FFXIV: ARR is now very popular, last I checked.
He makes good points here though as well. There has been plenty of fluff since 2001. Countless mobile games, and the Compilation of FFVII, to name a few. But they haven't always. Theatrhythm is a fantastic game that cleverly hones in on FF's greatest strength: the music. Dissidia I've never played, but it certainly doesn't seem like a cash grab. And the Crystal Chronicle games... I have no opinion on, to be honest. But spin-offs aren't always bad, though I do think there have been too many side games.
#4 I don't get because frankly I never found FFXIII's story confusing. They explain every term - if not immediately - and there's a codex that gets filled with handy info to remind you of anything. I will say that the first chapter is pretty explosive, but by about Chapter three everything calms to a standard pace. Eh, it's probably just me. But I never thought the terminology was FFXIII's greatest flaw.
I mostly agree with #3, though you can just choose to not play the other games. FFVII is a contained story that doesn't need the Compilation to be a full experience. Likewise with FFXIII. You can just play that and get a self-contained story from that. FFXIII-2 does require you to play LR after thanks to the awful ending, but still. It's pretty much a rehash of #5.
I agree with #2. While in both FFX-2 and LR there are several non-revealing clothes, the ones that are can be cringey. He chose the worse examples in that article, but fair enough. He has a point. Cid in FFXV hasn't helped matters either. Not sure about #1 though, it sort of depends on your view of SE as a company.
I mean, overall, the article makes some solid points but I think it focuses way too much on the easy targets. It hasn't been a mind-numbing slumber towards destruction since FFX. I mean, heck, I thought FFX was mediocre in my opinion.
I think he made a few good points. For me I love the older ones because they were still fantasy. Not living in the modern world where a guy with a sword takes on 10 trained soldiers with guns and he wins handily. It needs to take its stories back to the basics. It's just my thought.
Bishonen looking dudes who generally dress for the cause is hardily as bad as female characters in stripperific outfits that the camera loves to linger on. Fanservice works best when it's subtle, this is just pandering to pervs. Even worse, it makes it harder to take a character seriously when it feels obvious they are only here to be eye candy for a demographic. The fanservice in the PS1 generation was never as blatant as the PS2 and beyond. I mean Tifa getting a few scenes focusing on her unrealistic steel boobs feels kind of silly compared to Rikku's intro cutscene being her undressing out of a wet skin suit, Lulu constantly having to adjust her self so the "girls" don't plop out, Yuna getting far too many profile camera views to catch that not-so-subtle side boob her outfit has going for her. I don't think I even need to talk about X-2 here, and XII has Ashe in the shortest miniskirt in existence, it's almost a belt while Fran dresses in battle armor lingerie. Vanille moans like a whore in most of her attacks and her summons is a mecha-tentacle monster. I don't really see how mistaking Larsa for a chick really compares to all this nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken LoverAnd the male fanbase would like it if our main characters look vaguely like males.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
"Tasteless" is such a ridiculous criticism, WK. There has always been fanservice, they just have better technology to express it these days.
Now, let's look at this article, keeping in mind Cracked hasn't been credible or respected in years.
True, XIII just needed a far better execution but I will point out one major difference between VII's terminology drop compared to XIII's. VII's makes sense even if you don't have in-depth knowledge or context. An Eco-Terrorist group naming themselves after a destructive force of nature? Makes perfect sense. A special forces unit called SOLDIER? Childish, with the subtlety of a brick through a window, but it still makes perfect sense. About the only thing that needs a bit explaining is Mako and that happens promptly seven minutes into the game.Quote:
4. "Let's sum up the entire game in a sentence then let's write a detailed paragraph about XIII's opening to make it seem more convoluted."
Okay, how about this. FFVII starts with AVALANCHE attacking a Mako Reactor where an ex-member of SOLDIER is helping them destroy the place because it's sucking up all the Mako Energy which is this stuff in the Planet that keeps the Planet going.
True, a bit too much was happening in XIII's opening but that was the least of its problems. It just needed ab it more exposition to actually explain what was happening like when Barret explains why the hell they are there and blowing up this place.
In contrast, PSICOM, sounds like a generic Sci-fi task forced filled with psychics, which only half that statement is true. NORA sounds like Snow named the team after his ex-girlfriend, it doesn't get explained until hours later, and is ultimately as impactful and interesting as the Timber Owls of VIII.
Fal'Cie and l'Cie? Most people are trying to figure out how to pronounce that and why the latter has a capital letter in the center of it. The words don't even mean anything on their own, they're anagrams for the French word for Sky/Heaven and their symbolism is buried under so much bulltrout you need wikipedia to figure out why the writers chose to do something so asinine. They don't make sense, they just sound cool, and you'll still need the datalogs to make sense of it cause the cast is going to drop those terms like Quentin Tarentino flicks drop F-Bombs. The point here is that previous titles used terms that made some form of context, XIII is kind of the first title to seriously just make up words for the sake of it and then twiddles its thumbs for what feels like ages to finally explain their meaning. On it's own, it would normally not be a bad thing to go for something exotic but due to the poor pacing/writing, it only helps to make the weaknesses of the story more apparent.
Yeah, I kind of rolled my eyes at the Type-0 comment. Vii is self contained, but because the Compilation exists, it will never be seen that way except by the most bitter haters of the Compilation. As I said, someone will always bring up the Compilation to explain what looks like perceived weaknesses in the plot (like who the hell is this Zack guy and who formed AVALANCHE?) despite the fact that the game does a decent enough job to explain both anyway. I agree VII is self-contained though.Quote:
3. Both Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy XIII tell perfectly self-contained stories.
Also who the hell has to play Type-0?
XIII is another story, it has a few loose threads and the ending itself is a poorly executed plot hole that you need the sequels to explain. It can be taken as self-contained, but comes across as a troutty story because of it, using the sequels to patch up the holes in the story invites the rest of the bulltrout the trilogy brought to it.
You're really hung up on this particular topic aren't you? Considering you're also discussing a game that previously featured a strong female character who got replaced with a more docile one, and then they threw in a female mechanic who wears daisy dukes, a bathing suit and a heavy jacket always unzipped so you can get a clear shot of her goods, and you don't see this as an issue?Quote:
2. Lightning and her game suck but she isn't the only representative of the series. The next game doesn't even feature a female player character so what are they complaining about with oversexualized heroines?
I mean there is a car decal DLC of her that looks like this:
https://i.imgur.com/M0pNEzr.png
Attachment 69507
And you're going to tell me there is no oversexualization of female characters in this series?
Hell the two all-female FF titles are the two that allow you to play dress-up with scantily clad costume changes, whereas the all-dude cast looks like they dropped out of a Yakuza film in badass suits and leather jackets. Yeah there easy on the eyes, but you don't see cutscenes of Noctis and Gladious taking off their shirts to sweat in a desert, or a battle mechanic where the guys switch through various versions of speedos with a few accessories to differentiate them beyond their abilities. Hell, fans probably would love if their was a massage mini-game in this title among the party, but I doubt SE thought about it.
Speaking of, the Möbius protagonist went from this
http://abload.de/img/mevius-final-fantasy_7djxz.jpg
To this
http://nichegamer.com/wp-content/upl...2015-03-27.jpg
Because apparently, when men are feeling uncomfortable with someone of their gender being sexualized, they get listened to! Nope, no double standard here!
Ugh, yeah, the Final Fantasy series does have a problem with the sexualisation of women, without a doubt. I'm hoping FFXV improves on that. Having said that, Final Fantasy definitely isn't the only series, not that means it is off the hook.
Attachment 69555Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Wolf, saying Vanille "moans like a whore" is completely uncalled for.
And I really don't want to get into the hypocrisy of male and femael sexualization in video games.... Suffice it to say, Squall is every bit as fetishized as Yuna in her hot pants. It's just that a sexy guy is in tight leather pants, a sexy girl is in hot pants. I notice you didn't cover either Vaan or Basch when criticizing XII's characters. From what I hear, the Ivalice artist always piles on the gay fanservice. No assless chaps in this one, though or whatever the dude from Vagrant Story wore.
And since you already admitted that the problem with XIII was not its terminology but its execution, there's really nothing to address there. JRR Tolkien also threw a lot of WORDS at people in his novels, too. (he might be a professor and linguist with a lot of thought put into these Words but 99% of the readership don't know it. To them, there'd be no difference between fal'Cie and Istari) WORDS is just something you see in a lot of fantasy works. XIII's only failure was its pacing, not the new terms. A game like Xenogears makes FFXIII's Proper Nouns look positively simplistic and easily understandable.
I've always personally wondered why they would go walking through forests and caves battling any beast that showed up with swords and spears in Hot pants, or leather pants. I'd wear something a little more practical myself, but hey it wouldn't look good as cover art n
Except Xenogears based all its terminology on actual things in Gnosticism and it all made perfect sense both in the textual and metatextual sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
And please, Squall and Yuna really don't compare. Squall's leather outfit may be considered sexy, but it's also a power fantasy to men, much like you could say Batman's outfit with its exaggerated muscles may be alluring to women, but it's main function is for you, the male, to project yourself into this rich crime-fighting playboy who has the perfect body with which he can dominate stuff and have all the ladies. Likewise, Squall has the perfect model face and cool leather clothes because that's the beauty ideal in Japan, so that you can relate be that super cool guy that kills things with a gunblade abd get the hot chick. Female sexualization like Yuna's or Lightning's doesn't make them power icons for women. They're stripped down to look more accessible, so to speak, in some outfits even submissive, all with the Male Gaze in mind. They're really not there for the women to feel better about themselves. Compare that to another controversial example in Bayonetta where the main character is, indeed, very sexualized, and yet that's the whole point of her character and she totally owns it with her personality. Bayonetta is perfectly aware of how sexy she is and she likes it, and it gives her power and control. So here's your power fantasy element that is not present in sexualized FF females. And yes, Vanille's moans are definitely evocative of an orgasm.
All I'm saying is there's a difference between being portrayed as sexy than being portrayed as a sex object which has happened to female characters but not the male ones. Even the Yoshida examples don't really make things better. True, he sexualizes both the male and female form, but no attention in-game is brought to Ashley Riot's ass cheeks writhin the game - the camera doesn't focus on them, he doesn't like to stretch and show it off seductively to the camera, and yet we still get close-ups of Melrose's ass. Similar things can be said about FFXII - Basch is wearing assess chaps during his prison escape sequence, but you wouldn't know it without looking for it, but you know all about Ashe's skirt and Fran's uh... attire.
Now coming back to Mevius - if you remember the initial announcement of the game, the main protagonist was first seen not only in an outfit completely exposing his entire side, butt cheek included, but also in very submissive poses. It did seem like for once the series wasn't pandering to the Male Gaze, but the Female or Gay one. And notice that no one got angry about Ashley Riot, but the backlash towards this dude was so huge that they actually changed his outfit. There is definitely a double standard.
Thankfully, it looks like they've fixed Cindy's fanservicey nature in XV. In those 50 minutes of gameplay it looks like, while she still dresses the same, the camera no longer fixated on her assets, so she's more the energetic character they intended her to be than a pair of boobs for the audience to ogle.
That's kind of the thing - FF isn't particularly bad at the sexualization thing. This is a gaming problem in general. FF has actually given us consistently good female characters, with only some recent excursions (LR) really going into that shameless pandering area that's usually reserved for creepy otaku games. Nevertheless, it seems Tabata once again is a very reasonable man that does remember that women are people who may like their games too and decided to let Cindy retain her last shred of dignity. So while FF may have a general problem with sexualization, it isn't larger than in most games, and they atcleast try to sometimes make it equal opportunity. Yoshida is just too good for this world, I guess. Bare ass cheeks for everyone!
Fynn mostly addressed what needed to be said about the double standard and "sexy vs sex object" debate. As for Tolkein, it should also be pointed out that LotR is an amalgamation of folklore and mythology from all over Europe, so much of his terminology was somewhat understood by its contemporaries and in today's age, said information has been milked dry by every fantasy author who came after Tolkein. He did write a new language for the elves and other higher races, but I would point out that said Elven language is not a huge plot point, I mean the Istair is their term for Gandalf and his kind, but it's not like that's what he's called for the whole story, he begins with the lay men term of Wizard all the way back in the Hobbit. So the new language deal is more flavor text and world building in this case than relevant information that will be brought up with no context for a hundred pages in the book. Secondly, he does a decent job of translating said language to the reader rather quickly, usually within the story itself. So again, the terminology issue here is a moot point cause Tolkein would explain relevant stuff to you quickly, not to mention his Elvish language follows a cohesive understanding.
The issue with XIII's terms is not that their incomprehensible (that just makes them stupid) but rather the unknown nature of what they mean is lost on the player, especially since it takes the game what feels like forever to fill in the blanks and most of the time it's in the glossary, which forces you to stop playing the game so you catch up on all of the important lingo to make sense of the plot. Whereas FFVII and VIII stuck mostly to terminology that made bloody sense even without exact context. Hell the real issue with both games is why would anyone name badass super soldiers/mercenaries SOLDIER and SeeD in the first place since one is redundant and the other sounds way too "flowery" to be an elite military force, even if it is trying to be cool with the capitalized D. Yet, you can still see the parallel and symbolism without Cloud or Quistis trying to sit you down and explain it to you, and even better, neither game waited to really talk about it until hours into the game, nor force you to stop playing the game to read the glossary in case the first explanation didn't pan out.
As for Xenogears, there are a few differences with its use of terminology over the previous titles we've talked about. Firstly, as Fynn pointed out, all of the terminology is rooted in Greek Gnosticim or Jewish lore, so the only people screwed in this regard would be any country that didn't have to deal with European or U.S. powers meddling in their affairs at some point in the last 3000 years. Secondly, much like Evangleion, a lot of the name dropping is is more flavor text than relevant. The names of Gears, Towns, major locations, and doomsday buzzwords by the Gazel Ministry are either irrelevant, symbolic but not important to the plot, or the context of the term being used is enough to get the gist of it. The rest of the terminology follows the VII and VIII route where it easily makes sense with a just a little context given in the scene the term is used in. Thirdly, the terminology dropping and cryptic dialogue are intentional to confuse the player, Xenogears is a mystery concerning its world and the character of Fei; and the roundabout plot choir that is most of the villains are meant to confuse and confound you enough to keep you playing; Xenosaga did the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Emperor:Yes, the -Gospel-. We are the people expelled from paradise and forced to live on the cruel surface of the earth. We who fill this land will once again return to the presence of God in paradice and live there eternally. That is the -Time- of the -Gospel-. That -Time- is at hand. We, the Gazel, must find God's resting place by then and resurrect him. That is our final prayer.
Citan:Our final prayer?
Emporer:Our final prayer to escape from the -Fate- that was determined at our genesis.
Gazel Red 1:If only 'he' did not exist, the Lambs would not have been turned into the 'Animus'. It has been 500 years since our fall in the 'Days of Destruction' that 'he' caused... We would not have to do this in such a troublesome manner as we do now.
You literally have to play through Xenogears more than once to understand half the conversations between anyone outside the party. This is "better" than fal'Cie and l'Cie how?
Ah, the Bayonetta hypocrisy. A game literally marketed on stripping her naked is not objectifying women? I don't get it, I never will get it. It's every bit as damning as DOA game.Quote:
And please, Squall and Yuna really don't compare. Squall's leather outfit may be considered sexy, but it's also a power fantasy to men, much like you could say Batman's outfit with its exaggerated muscles may be alluring to women, but it's main function is for you, the male, to project yourself into this rich crime-fighting playboy who has the perfect body with which he can dominate stuff and have all the ladies. Likewise, Squall has the perfect model face and cool leather clothes because that's the beauty ideal in Japan, so that you can relate be that super cool guy that kills things with a gunblade abd get the hot chick. Female sexualization like Yuna's or Lightning's doesn't make them power icons for women. They're stripped down to look more accessible, so to speak, in some outfits even submissive, all with the Male Gaze in mind. They're really not there for the women to feel better about themselves. Compare that to another controversial example in Bayonetta where the main character is, indeed, very sexualized, and yet that's the whole point of her character and she totally owns it with her personality. Bayonetta is perfectly aware of how sexy she is and she likes it, and it gives her power and control. So here's your power fantasy element that is not present in sexualized FF females. And yes, Vanille's moans are definitely evocative of an orgasm.
And I didn't realize only "whores" has orgasms.
Yuna is a beautiful women who smurfing saved the world and can summon giant monsters or later on shoot/stab/set things on fire. I don't see why you are calling her submissive when she is every bit as much a power fantasy as Squall. You're just determined to let Squall off because he's a guy and Yuna is from FFX. Well, hate to break it to you, but Yuna is possibly the most popular FF female, among both men and women.
And really, Squall is a prettyboy clad in leather who has "issues." He's so MISUNDERSTOOD. HE JUST NEEDS A HUG AND THE LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN! That's literally the plot of FFVIII.
So your excuse is that it's intentionally terrible? Having cutscenes that bombard you with meaningless gibberish is better than cutscenes where they bombard you with meaningless gibberish? At least Sazh stops to explain stuff about a half hour into the game. Who the smurf will be explaining Time of the Gospel, Days of Destruction or Anima in XenogearS? Nobody for a long, long time. In fact, to understand any of it, you have to read Perfect Works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I love Xenogears but it's hardly flawless and it's really no dbetter than XIII in this regard. But that's the thing is, what XIII did was not bad. It merely went about it in a bad way but that's to do with pacing, not writing.
You see the words Gospel and Day of Destruction and you can kinda sorta -infer- (hehe) what they mean by that. l'Cie and fal'Cie, by contrast, are completely meaningless in isolation where if you show it someone on the street and ask what they think that means they'll probably just shrug.
funny how i figured Fal'Cie were demi-gods of a sort and l'Cie were the agents of said demi-gods... it's honestly not as hard to figure out as the detractors exaggerate it to be... it does not take the datalog to figure it out, it's all there in story context as long as you pay attention... i got it all on my first playthrough... as for that paragraph he wanted explained, here goes:
XIII begins in Cocoon (an artificial satellite), where citizens of Bodhum (a seaside town within Cocoon) are being murdered by PSICOM, soldiers of the world government, for coming in contact with a demi-god from Pulse (the Planet they orbit). The demi-gods are turning people into their reluctant agents, who have an Unclear Mission, but if the agents fail to complete their unclear mission they're turned into horrible monsters. Our hero, Lightning, teams up with members of NORA (a local resistance group) to rescue her reluctant agent sister from the demi-god Anima, and the story continues naturally from there.
it's really that easy to get, and i honestly believe if they worded it that way they would have been panned for making the story over-simplified...