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I'm curious to know which FF games, if any, you guys have changed opinion on over time. Maybe FFs that you thought were great at first until you years later you decided they didn't age very well. Or, my personal favorite, the reverse, where a game you weren't fond of at first later became one of your faves.
So! Has anyone out there had this happen to them? :)
I used to trash FFX pretty hard. I've softened on it since and think it's pretty good. That's probably to do with how bad XII and XIII were for me and I appreciated its strong points a lot more. With that said, I'm looking forward to playing TZA to see if I can understand what so many EoFFers see in XII and hope that maybe I'll like that too.
VII is so much stupider than I remembered, while VIII is much better constructed than people give it credit for, imo.
Also, III is a very pleasant game but ONLY if you use the Geomancer. Otherwise it is hell. And I'm a MegaTen fan.
Geomancer is awesome in both FFIII and FFV. It's a class that needs more love!
Yeah, it's great in both but really borders on broken in III
FFXIII is categorically the best game in the franchise. Attachment 71646
I've gone from liking XIII a little bit to really, really disliking XIII.
I also went from being very positive about XV to playing it.
X-2 rises in my estimations every time I play it.
I think that my opinion on XIII-2 gets better every year. That game is underrated as hell.
Agreed that X-2 gets a tiny bit better each time I play it. I'd honestly rate it above X at this point, which seems to go down in my estimations the more I think about it.
I definitely think X-2 > X and XIII-2 > XIII. They both took the original and refined the concept.
I can't say anything about X-2 because I haven't played it, but I definitely still think that XIII > XIII-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Most people will consider XIII-2 better because Square Enix addressed a lot of the complaints regarding the linearity by having more open areas and side quests you could participate in throughout the game. I definitely still appreciate that aspect aspect of the game and enjoyed it a lot, but I really didn't mind XIII's linearity either.
Yeah, despite really not liking XIII at all, I don't think XIII-2 is better. Maybe it has a more fun world to play around, but the battle system is identical with the very dubious addition of monster companions. The music is cool but lacks the artistry that Hamauzu can only really pull off alone. And the plot has zero respect to the source material, despite the fact that that was a garbled mess to begin with. But you could at least see some concrete ideas in that that got completely cast aside or retconned. XIII-2 feels like a Chinese bootleg of XIII, and that's saying a lot.
I do love FFX-2, but I've always felt that way. Apart from the awful story and dialogue, which I still dislike. I'd never rank it above X though.
FFXII is probably the only one I've changed my opinion on drastically. I hated it at first, I think I got to the part when you first meet Ashe in the sewers and just chucked it, and even getting up to that point was a chore.
Fast forward a year or so, I gave it another shot and absolutely loved it. Shot up the ranks to my third favourite FF game. I can't explain why!
I think I agree with you on some points. Let me preface my post by saying that I think XIII-2 is a great game, and I thoroughly enjoyed almost all aspects of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
I thought that monster companion system was actually really well done. It added another layer of customization to the game, as you could purposefully look for the best monsters to collect for your team. This added a lot of depth to both the combat system and the game as a whole. However, one thing I disliked is that the Feral Links were fairly underwhelming compared to the Eidolons from XIII (which didn't have many uses outside of boss battles or the late game). Outside of the companions that buff you when you use a Feral Link, the others just feel fairly meaningless. They don't have nearly as much impact during battles. On this point, I feel this is one element of XIII-2 that isn't really polished or implemented well.
About the music, I somewhat disagree. I still do think XIII's OST is better, but XIII-2 still has an incredible soundtrack. They attempted to take a different approach with this one by introducing more songs with vocals. This was highly effective, as I found that the songs featuring Joelle were among the best in the game. Also, the Last Hunter is one of the best battle themes ever made, period. Ultimately, I don't think that the soundtrack has nearly the cohesion of XIII's, but it is still very good.
The story does seem a little bit "off" considering that XIII's ending seemed to tie up all loose ends. But to me, despite the plot being confusing at times, I still felt it was pretty good. Caius is also a standout villain for me.
I don't really care about the source material when assessing it as a game. I don't think it's relevant. I liked that it had a clearly defined goal and a clearly defined (and charismatic!) villain, and Noel was a welcome addition and a more enjoyable character than the majority of the original six (Sazh and Snow, yes, Snow is great shut up, being the exceptions). The freedom and world is definitely a massive plus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
I also thought Lightning Returns was better in terms of gameplay than both, although the lack of any personality to Lightning and zombie Hope killed it a little.
FFXII goes up and down in my opinion on a regular basis. FFX I used to dislike a lot more than I do now, but the particular things I disliked about it are just as disliked now as ever. Not much else has changed for me.
Paul, your claims regarding Snow are a complete betrayal and I don't know what to think of our friendship anymore
I've actually been leaning toward IV as my favorite FF. VIII used to be my favorite, but after thinking about it, IV is my favorite now. I still love VIII though :).
My dislike level for Ardyn during my 1st run was 10/10 because he is a forced little pseudo-villain "ooh look at me I am the forced, pseudo-natural nuisance villain that happens to be even worse a character than the non-written character of Kefka who is better than me on every level. and I have a hat and an arm-wing-gimmick plus i do not shave to look different from the rest of villains". After the 2nd and 3rd time my dislike level is only 9.5/10.
While it's still not my favorite, I also like IV a little bit more every time I play it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndis Highwind
The first time I played FFVI I didn't find it that good and couldn't understand why people loved it so much. A year or so later, I gave it a second shot and I absolutely loved it from start to finish.
On the XIII Trilogy topic (which I'm currently playing, so no spoilers please) I quite enjoyed FFXIII. Never had any problem with the linearity (FFX was the first FF I played so...) and I liked the characters a lot. Story was confusing at times, but that's my only complaint.
Right now I'm 13-14 hours in XIII-2 and I'm loving it so far.
Young Maybee : " I hate Final Fantasy VI, the graphics are terrible, I can hardly see where I'm going, WHO IS THE MAIN LEADER ? IS IT THE KLEPTOMANIAC ? THE PERV KING ? HOW DO I GET PASSED ZO-ZO ?? WHO DO I PUT IN MY PARTY WHEN THERE IS 20 CHARACTERS ? "
Maybee today : " Final Fantasy VI is bloody brilliant "
Young Maybee : Final Fantasy IX is so weird and creepy, it's like one of those strange anime-y things, euck "
Maybee today : " Final Fantasy IX is beauitful and is a masterpiece and the soundtrack ahhhhhhh " !!!
Young Maybee : " Final Fantasy XII is a giant bore, the characters are a bore, the soundtrack is a bore, just a bore... "
Maybee today : " Final Fantasy XII is still a bore in parts, but the game isn't.... that bad, and Ashe, Fran and Penelo are love "
Young Maybee : " Final Fantasy XIII is a giant improvement over that horrid disaster that was FF XII, thank you SE "
Maybee today : " THE CRINGE "
Young Maybee : " Crisis Core is awful, ruins the original game "
Maybee today : " Crisis Core is a fun game and could do with some little improvements ( cough removing Genesis cough ) would love to play a HD PS4 remake of the game. "
X-2 is a complete overhaul of the original. XIII-2 I'll give you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
X-2 is the one I've grown the most fondness for over the years, mostly because it is where SE peaked in their battle system, and I didn't realize it at the time.
I no longer hate Tidus like I used to.
I hate Squall and FFVIII a lot now, used to think it was okay.
Nowadays I think FFIX's battle system is pretty fun and not as slow and tedious as I remember it being.
Final Fantasy V and Final Fantasy XIII. V is now in my top five even though I thought it seemed boring at first but it's an amazing classic fantasy JRPG to me, one of the best. FF-XIII, I still have negativity towards it, but I am beginning to appreciate it more after playing that huge pile of sh*t Final Fantasy: Sasuke's Boyband Trip XV.
I keep reading it as "for smurf sake",
I used to think FFXII was a huge disappointment, but I grew to adore the dialogue, combat, character advancement, and yes, even the plot quite a bit. It's now maybe my fourth favorite game in the series. I've softened my view on Tactics and VIII is okay enough I guess.
I used to think FFXIII was underrated but it probably is the worst entry in the main series.
I'm much keener on FFIX now than I was on first playthrough and less keen on VIII.
FFIII
Old Opinion: This was pretty good, not great but still pretty fun.
New opinion: Playing the original version definitely jumped this entry up on my list. The job class and hands off story work better when the game is actually challenging.
FFIV
Old Opinion: It was good for it's time but boring now.
New Opinion: This game was way more thought out than the other entries. It still has problems but my researchanalysis has given it more respect in my book.
FFVI
Initial Opinion: Ugh, the concept is cool but RPGs have troutty combat and the menu system is impenetrable.
Old Opinion, after I stopped being dumb: GREATEST GAME EVER!!!
New Opinion: I still love this game, but I acknowledge it's myriad of flaws and how some people won't like it as much as me.
FFVII
Old Opinion: Kind of a let down. It started so good and then just imploded halfway through. Worse FF ever. I'm sure other fans will agree...
New Opinion: Okay, the fanbase is what made me really hate this game, but I acknowledge that it had some great ideas and simply suffers similar problems to my fave FF above. Course it's still way better than that piece of trout FFX...
FFVIII
Old Opinion: Definitely different and unbalanced, but still fun if weird. I would be lying if I said I didn't love this game a little more than I should because so many VII fanboys hate it for not being VII-2.
New Opinion: Flawed as hell, but I still appreciate what it was trying to do, and I still feel Squall's story is probably the only good writing Nojima has ever done for the series.
FFX
Old Opinion: It was okay. Honestly, I found it pretty boring overall and didn't feel any satisfaction by the end because of it. (Another playthrough later) Oh that's why, the game has no real challenge and the cast are annoying melodramatic fools all trapped in a really linear game experience where my only options are to go forward with the boring plot or play one of the games asinine mini-games...
New Opinion: It's got some nice ideas, but the execution of it all still leaves me cold. This game chose to be safe instead of innovative. Yet I take back my thoughts on the linear game design because at least it was something, not like that piece of trout FFXIII...
FFXI
Old Opinion: They made it into an MMO? How dare they!?
New Opinion: Whatever, that happened. Don't even remember why I cared actually. Oh hey look, XIV is an MMO as well.
There are a few where my opinions did slightly differ from initial playthrough vs. later introspection, but ultimately the change only shifted ever so slightly for the better or worse and my initial feelings largely stands; so I'm not going to bore you with those.
Because I got into Final Fantasy pretty late in the game I don't really have any "old" opinions of it. I played VII as a kid but didn't get far into it (mostly because I didn't have a PS1 memory card at the time, the only other FF I played was the demo of X-2) when I played it a decade later it became my favourite of the series (or at worst a close second behind X). I don't hate Squall as much as I used to; even putting aside the fact that his character was mangled by the English localization (he's pretty much a different character entirely in the original Japanese version) I liked his no-nonsense attitude when every else was going full retard, and his internal monologueing gave him quite a bit of depth.
You're literally the first person I've ever seen say FF3NES is harder than FF3D. FF3NES is supposed to be a broken mess, like all NES FF games. Just throw Shurikens at everything and use Sage and tapdance over the enemies and final boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Anyway....
FFVI
Old: What is this garbage? I thought this was supposed to be some kind of timelss masterpiece. Just another Chrono Trigger, good for its time but of no substantive value today.
New: Finally got to the World of Ruin. Hey, this game is amazing and has true artistic worth. It very much holds up.
Considering those classes don't become available in the NES version until the final dungeon, their usefulness is exaggerated. Actually the NES version is way harder due to the game having more enemies on the screen and half the classes not working like their later incarnations. Dividing enemies are annoying in the DS version but are almost guarantee party wipes if you go in with the wrong team in the NES version. I don't even know why I'm explaining this, I remember you playing this game and lamenting the difficulty curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken LoverYou're literally the first person I've ever seen say FF3NES is harder than FF3D. FF3NES is supposed to be a broken mess, like all NES FF games. Just throw Shurikens at everything and use Sage and tapdance over the enemies and final boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
So the game is hard because the Jobs it gives you don't work? What kind of defense is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoConsidering those classes don't become available in the NES version until the final dungeon, their usefulness is exaggerated. Actually the NES version is way harder due to the game having more enemies on the screen and half the classes not working like their later incarnations. Dividing enemies are annoying in the DS version but are almost guarantee party wipes if you go in with the wrong team in the NES version. I don't even know why I'm explaining this, I remember you playing this game and lamenting the difficulty curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken LoverYou're literally the first person I've ever seen say FF3NES is harder than FF3D. FF3NES is supposed to be a broken mess, like all NES FF games. Just throw Shurikens at everything and use Sage and tapdance over the enemies and final boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I don't remember being upset at the difficulty in FF3D, though. It actually sort of curves downward in difficulty and by the end it's pretty easy. Cloud of Darkness was a decent challenge for a final boss but she was the first challenge in a long time. The start of the game is harder because of limited Job selection and stuff.
But overall, yes, it was probably among the hardest FF games. Not always for the right reasons, much like your "FF3NES is broken therefore it's challenging" counter.
I never said the classes were broken. With the exception of the Geomancer class, which was poorly conceived in its original form, I would actually argue the classes of the Famicom version are far more balanced from a challenge perspective than their DS counterparts which are balanced against each other, but mostly overpowered in general for the games difficultyQuote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
. I mean Magic Fencer was an okay class that was imperative to have against dividing enemies in the NES version. Dark Knights are just overpowered in general in the DS version and even then; dividing enemies are hardly a threat anymore and the boost to mages makes the DK less useful for the role it was meant to play in the game to begin with. Likewise, dual wielding is a risky strategy in the NES version since the loss of the extra defense would make even the tankiest class a glass cannon against several enemies. In the DS version, there is rarely anything outside of boss battles that would make you want to have a shield and the extra damage from a secondary weapon gave ridiculous damage bonuses whereas it was a bit more modest in the original.
The other element that makes the game more challenging was the fact that most abilities can actually miss including magic and skills like Jump, so they weren't guarantee damage, damage itself would fluctuate due to the game recreating the "dice" aspect of roll playing games so an enemy could easily one shot your knight or viking with a concentrated spell whereas in the DS version, these classes take scratch damage from that kind of stuff when defending. In fact, it's pretty much the whole idea that FFIII still adheres to table top dice mechanics in general, that makes this game more challenging whereas the remake utilizes the more streamlined design of the 16-bit era and onward with damage rarely fluctuating, classes with powerful skills with near perfect accuracy, and the game often favoring the player in terms of damage and speed. The DS version also can't recreate the amount of enemies on the screen like the NES/Famicom era due to hardware limitations, as having eight enemies on a screen with enemies that can either divide to keep that number constant or inflict nasty status ailments like confusion or paralyze with their physical abilities. I can easily name dungeons that I absolutely dread in the NES version whereas I wouldn't spare a thought for them in the DS version.
So while the DS version is still challenging in today's standards, it does way more to favor the player than the original which was more of a free for all. I wouldn't even call it broken design as I often don't feel a game should cater to the player.
I dunno what FF3 remake you played where the game caters to the player in terms of speed. The nonexistent logic of turn orders meant your White Mage might pop off a heal before the boss actually did anything and thus wastes their turn. Which is then followed up by the boss deciding to unleash two devastating physical attacks both on the WM, most likely killing them. As I said, that was a tragic part of the remake's fake difficulty and a negative aspect to it not present in other FF games. Bosses getting two turns + the random turns could easily kill any but the most overleveled party. The only things I recall getting priority were Defend, or at least Monk's Retaliate always got to go first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoI never said the classes were broken. With the exception of the Geomancer class, which was poorly conceived in its original form, I would actually argue the classes of the Famicom version are far more balanced from a challenge perspective than their DS counterparts which are balanced against each other, but mostly overpowered in general for the games difficultyQuote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
. I mean Magic Fencer was an okay class that was imperative to have against dividing enemies in the NES version. Dark Knights are just overpowered in general in the DS version and even then; dividing enemies are hardly a threat anymore and the boost to mages makes the DK less useful for the role it was meant to play in the game to begin with. Likewise, dual wielding is a risky strategy in the NES version since the loss of the extra defense would make even the tankiest class a glass cannon against several enemies. In the DS version, there is rarely anything outside of boss battles that would make you want to have a shield and the extra damage from a secondary weapon gave ridiculous damage bonuses whereas it was a bit more modest in the original.
The other element that makes the game more challenging was the fact that most abilities can actually miss including magic and skills like Jump, so they weren't guarantee damage, damage itself would fluctuate due to the game recreating the "dice" aspect of roll playing games so an enemy could easily one shot your knight or viking with a concentrated spell whereas in the DS version, these classes take scratch damage from that kind of stuff when defending. In fact, it's pretty much the whole idea that FFIII still adheres to table top dice mechanics in general, that makes this game more challenging whereas the remake utilizes the more streamlined design of the 16-bit era and onward with damage rarely fluctuating, classes with powerful skills with near perfect accuracy, and the game often favoring the player in terms of damage and speed. The DS version also can't recreate the amount of enemies on the screen like the NES/Famicom era due to hardware limitations, as having eight enemies on a screen with enemies that can either divide to keep that number constant or inflict nasty status ailments like confusion or paralyze with their physical abilities. I can easily name dungeons that I absolutely dread in the NES version whereas I wouldn't spare a thought for them in the DS version.
So while the DS version is still challenging in today's standards, it does way more to favor the player than the original which was more of a free for all. I wouldn't even call it broken design as I often don't feel a game should cater to the player.
The remake only did what FF5 did - make every Job viable. The way I hear it, FF3's original design philosophy was each new set of Jobs was an upgrade. To still use Warrior by the endgame is just being stupid. And Red Mages were worthless trash who couldn't equip anything passed a certain level.
I don't think it's wrong to give the player more options on how to play the game.
You are correct that Dark Knight is worthless in the remake but mainly because Souleater drains HP and losing HP on your own is a terrible idea in this game.
Honestly never had that happen to me, if someone was going to get one shotted, it was the glass cannon classes like Dark Knight, Bard, or Black Mage. Of anything, the Devout class has ridiculously high defense for a mage class. Also the bosses getting two turns is a result of the designers actually adding difficulty due to being unable to bring in the game's original difficulty with higher enemy counts and fluctuating damage. I mean if the bosses didn't get multiple turns as well as higher stats, they would be even more of a joke than they already are. Though frankly, giving CoD multiple skills actually makes her easy, especially since Particle Beam/Flare Wave was noticeably nerfed. I'm not saying the DS version isn't challenging, but compared to the original, it's on training wheels. Getting 4 digit damage in the Famicom version is considered incredible. Hitting the damage cap of 9999 in the remake is child's play for more than half of the classes. So I'm a bit baffled that anyone would consider the DS version harder than the original.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Yes, and I feel original's ways of doing things were fine the way they were. Technically, only some jobs became obsolete rather quickly, and frankly I still feel the Warrior/Fighter class is kind of worthless in the remake as well. Frankly some classes have more longevity than others, Knight and the core Black and White mage classes stay viable for most of the game. Even then the balance of classes in the game are uneven as Geomancer, Monk, Knight, Dragoon and DK are way overpowered whereas classes like Sage, Evoker, and Scholar are pretty worthless, so I would say they kind of failed to recreate the viability of classes like FFV had.Quote:
The remake only did what FF5 did - make every Job viable. The way I hear it, FF3's original design philosophy was each new set of Jobs was an upgrade. To still use Warrior by the endgame is just being stupid. And Red Mages were worthless trash who couldn't equip anything passed a certain level.
I don't disagree, but I actually feel the original still gave you plenty of options.Quote:
I don't think it's wrong to give the player more options on how to play the game.
Barring them not having any decent gear until the last fifth of the title, I disagree that DK is a worthless class. Their decent speed combined with the fact Souleater is a group hitting attack that reaches the damage cap way earlier than it has any right to do. I mean if the Ninja didn't have better speed and defense, I would have never dropped the DK from my team. I actually never did drop the Dragoon since dual wielding spears with one of them being a Blood Spear makes it impossible for enemies to beat them unless they somehow manage to one shot them.Quote:
You are correct that Dark Knight is worthless in the remake but mainly because Souleater drains HP and losing HP on your own is a terrible idea in this game.
I'm replaying FFIII NES at the moment, and I may actually prefer the NES version over the 3D remake. The battles are much slower in the remake, even if there are less enemies and you use PSP's Auto-Battle feature for 2x speed. This is due to the very slow animations. I tried clocking how long one turn takes in the same location, and even with the PSP version having less enemies and Auto-Battle, the turns were faster on NES. The 3D version also felt much more grindy, or at least grinding takes a longer time. On NES, it took me about 25 hours hours to reach the Crystal Tower, and about 5 additional hours to grind for the final dungeons, and this was without the B-button Dash ability. On PSP, I needed 40 hours to reach the Crystal Tower, with about the same levels.
On my latest run, I've been using fan-made hacks, and I highly recommend them. Certain fan translations (such as the ones by ad0220 and Chaos Rush) add plenty of dialogue, as well as the B-button Dash ability. There also also mods, such as Maeson's Mix and Spindaboy's FFIII Patch, that rebalance the classes. With all these new changes, the NES version feels clearly superior to the 3D remakes, apart from graphics and music.