That "whoa" moment?

I was thinking the other day, when I realized I haven't played a game in a long time that had a moment in it where you you have a "whoa" realization. Let me explain:

I know Final Fantasy VII wasn't the pinnacle of gaming at the time for everyone. So even if the moment didn't have this affect on you, you may be able to determine what I'm talking about and remember a game that did have that moment for you. In Final Fantasy VII you spend X amount of time in the first part of the game. Midgard. And you can do a lot of stuff in Midgard. Honestly they probably could have re-worked the story and had everything in Midgard. It was large and fascinating. You could spend a couple hours in the opening, or a dozen hours. And then you escape, and the world opens up to you, and you realize just how big this adventure is. It was a very whoa moment for me. Not that I'd played so few RPGs having a world open up is something special. But just how it was presented was a very whoa

Another one I remember, also from the PS1 era, was in Grandia. Which I've only played once, when it was new, so forgive me if I get this wrong. But from what I remember you go on an adventure and at some point decide to head to the edge of the world. Everyone knows there's a huge wall at the edge of the world, but only legends say what's on the other side. It's more of a thing to be marveled at than conquered. And nobody really knows what's on the other side. But eventually your group decides for whatever reason they want to see what actually is on the other side, if anything at all. So they managed to climb it and peer out over the top to see a whole other world out there. Its own civilizations and religions and problems completely separate from the world they knew. I'm sure I got a lot of this wrong, but I remember climbing the wall and presented with a "whoa" moment when they got to the top

In my experience these used to happen a lot in RPGs, hence my examples coming from that genre. But I'm putting this in General Games because maybe someone got this feeling from Shadow of the Colossus, or Zone of the Enders or something. I'm sure any genre is capable of it. But I can't think of enough games that utilize this. Especially anything newer. It seems to be a bygone story-telling technique. And it wasn't even a bad one. So I don't know why nobody uses it anymore. The most recent game I can think of to open up and feel like a "whoa" was when you got to the first big plains in Xenoblade Chronicles. And nothing else recent seems to have even tried. Horizon Zero Dawn could have easily done this when you leave the beginning area. But they opted to take a more down-to-earth story-telling approach rather than the Hollywood cinematic approach (they use that approach in other areas though)

So, anyone have any games that presented a whoa moment to you? I wish I had a better way of explaining this, but I'm curious what other games impacted other people in similar ways

This game gets trout on a lot here, but Ocarina of Time. I was 10 when my stepdad played it (I wasn't very good at it myself, then) and I remember we'd been working on it together. I'd look up answers when he was stuck and help him, and I was enjoying watching him play. Because the game was still new to us (and still very much current content, even if a few years old), we were taking time to explore. So by the time he beat Jabu Jabu, it defnitely felt like we were in end-game.

Then he pulls the Master Sword. WAKES UP AND LINK IS 7 YEARS OLDER. Okay, leaves the Temple of Time. What do you see? Goddamn Death Mountain ON FIRE. EVERYTHING DESOLATE. Walk into the town, and it's destroyed and filled with ReDeads. It was incredible.

Top it off that he opened that up right before my bedtime on a school night. Talk about having to wait!

Some good examples so far.

There was a "whoa" moment for me in Rune Factory 3 that is actually what put it on my list as my third favorite game of all time. The town of Sharance is incredibly well crafted in that game. Every day, all of the townsfolk have something different to say to you. They'll have further unique conversations when groups of friends (or rivals) are together on the screen. They have unique dialogue during festivals, depending on how friendly you are with them, etcetera. It really made it feel alive.

What tipped it for me, though, was married life. In RF3, marriage occurs at the end of the game. It's the culmination of the story, and the socializing you've been doing with the townsfolk, the friendships you've built. So, it might be reasonable to expect things to wrap up and conclude at that point. But they don't. Instead, I discovered that there was an entire personal mini-story that played out with me and my wife in our daily conversations. No cutscenes or action sequences. Just how the two of us get on with daily life in town. It was sweet, funny at times, and incredibly well built for the character. And that was what made it a "whoa" moment. Each available bachelorette has their own little slice-of-life story like that. My own personal choice was Raven (because she's the best waifu in the game, beating out Sophia), but it didn't matter who you pick, you get this little vignette that plays out over time just about how you two go about your daily lives, getting on in the village. It's fantastic, and was definitely a "whoa" moment for me.

Bravely Default (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
FINAL BOSS SPOILERS YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
The end of Bravely Default. That final battle against Ouroboros. As I'm fighting, and he starts threatening worlds, trying to break Agnès. And then, a world pops up with the name of one of my link buddies, and gets destroyed. And then the next one pops up, and it's Fynn's world. And I start freaking out. "OH, NO, YOU DO NOT HURT MY FRIEND". And then I see Fynn's team, in the jobs he chose, the battle theme changes to the party theme, and they're defending his world and letting me finish off the beast. That moment of perfect gameplay and story integration when the multiple worlds and the summoning mechanic dovetail so beautifully and come to fruition in this truly epic final boss, and the music and... Just superb. One of the greatest final battles of all time. Definitely a "whoa" moment for me.

@4:40 when the party theme kicks in at that moment. REVO, you have crafted one amazing final boss theme here.

Umineko Episode 1, that moment. You know, the Tea Party one. The one that reveals what this story is actually going to be about.

I had a similar moment as Jinx in OoT. I was terrified when I woke up and saw Hyrule the way it was and I was also pretty young so it had a big effect.

FFIX was a whole "whoa" moment for me and what RPGs could be. It really got me in the the genre.

Tales of Xillia at the big moment when (SPOILER)you find out the Lance of Kresnik is not what you thought it was at all and this whole new chain of events unfolds

I have more but these are the ones I can think of right now

For me the first big whoa moment was Chrono Trigger. When Crono sacrifices himself against Lavos for the team, and I really thought he was dead. Didn't expect to be getting him back.

DQ5, when (SPOILER)you realize you aren't the Chosen One

FF6, when (SPOILER)the world is actually destroyed by the final boss and your party is lost

Yeah I know FF6 hardly deserves a spoiler tag anymore, oh well.

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Originally Posted by FFNut

For me the first big whoa moment was Chrono Trigger. When Crono sacrifices himself against Lavos for the team, and I really thought he was dead. Didn't expect to be getting him back.

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Especially considering it is a bootstrap paradox (logically closed causality cycle) and not a grandfather (illogical erasure) paradox, meaning what you saw "dying" always was the doll.

Hm ... what would be one "woah" moment ... probably when the Pyramid Heads in Silent Hill 2 kill themselves.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

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Originally Posted by FFNut

For me the first big whoa moment was Chrono Trigger. When Crono sacrifices himself against Lavos for the team, and I really thought he was dead. Didn't expect to be getting him back.

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Especially considering it is a bootstrap paradox (logically closed causality cycle) and not a grandfather (illogical erasure) paradox, meaning what you saw "dying" always was the doll.

Hm ... what would be one "woah" moment ... probably when the Pyramid Heads in Silent Hill 2 kill themselves.

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I do not believe that qualifies as a Bootstrap Paradox.

The idea of the Bootstrap Paradox is that the paradox could not have been triggered without its own input.

Example: In Terminator, a T-800 is sent back to kill John Conner, fails, and is found by scientists, who then use it's leftover pieces to build Skynet. According to Niles Tyson in Terminator 2, a lot of their ideas would not have been had without the pieces they found.

If we take that to be true, then without the T-800 jumping back in time, there would have been no Skynet to build the T-800 in the first place. It's a self-causing paradox that cannot exist except in the stable state.

There is no true paradox in the Chrono replacement. Since the moment itself, and all that derives from it, is unchanged, no paradox develops, and the replacement occurs completely within the realm of basic causality. Just, with time travel.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

I do not believe that qualifies as a Bootstrap Paradox.

The idea of the Bootstrap Paradox is that the paradox could not have been triggered without its own input.

There is no true paradox in the Chrono replacement. Since the moment itself, and all that derives from it, is unchanged, no paradox develops, and the replacement occurs completely within the realm of basic causality. Just, with time travel.

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It is a bootstrap paradox. A self-guaranteeing causal event cycle.

• The group THINKS they see Crono dying while in reality it is the doll as the group already went back in time to save Crono (as they also saw the doll, thinking it was Crono, etc.)
• They get the Chrono Trigger
• The Chrono Trigger causes the event that opens the time rift right when Lavos attacks
• They use the doll.
• The heroes THINK they see Crono dying
• They get the Chrono Trigger
• The Chrono Trigger, et cetera ...

You say "the moment itself and all that derives from it is unchanged" and that is exactly what a bootstrap paradox is: Whatever happened, happened. The cause influences the effect and vice-versa. And it always does and always did. A moment that would be changed would be a so-called "consistency" or "grandfather paradox". A Bootstrap Paradox is not called "Paradox" because it is impossible or anything but for the very reason that, as you mention does not need anything but itself. It is not called "Paradox" because it is causally impossible. "Paradox" is often used synonymously to "Anomaly" or "Problem". Just as in science we often call something "Theory" even though it is already proven. A Bootstrap Paradox functions with closed and consistent logic as it uses a cycle, functioning as its own "proxy beginning" that is legitimate for the very fact that it is a cycle. Other than a consistency paradox the Bootstrap is no actual problem and highly misunderstood by many. If Crono's "saving" would not be a bootstrap paradox, it would be a consistency paradox and that is the form of impossible paradoxes (CT also has a lot of them), because "just replacing something" still is a change of things, thus you would automatically overwrite the reality you came from, even if that change seems insignificant, hell, even moving a pebble for 1 mm is already a different reality for the very fact that it has not before existed in this state of truth. It is very true that CT uses a lot of consistency paradox, but Crono's event works very well as Bootstrap Paradox.

(SPOILER)

• Link learns the Song of Storms from a guy who has heard it from Link
• He plays it so the other guy can play it

• Squall, a SEED finds himself in the past and tells Edea about being a SEED from Balamb Garden
• Edea opens up the Garden and creates the concept of the SEEDs
• Squall becomes a SEED
• Squall fights Ultimecia and finds himself back in time

• Harry is warned by is Future Self without knowing it is his Future Self
• He sees his Future Self casting the Patronus thinking it is his father
• He travels back in time
• He warns his past self without his past self knowing it is his own future self
• He waits for his father realizing he will not come and that he has seen his own future self casting the Patronus
• Past Harry sees Future Harry casting the Patronus

• Future Trunks flees from Goku Black

• Events start that provide the ground for Zamasu becoming Goku Black

• Goku Black terrorizes Trunks

• Trunks flees

Twelve Monkeys:

• Bruce Willis is sent back in time to initiate an event that can make the outcome different
• It is revealed at the end that his try to do so - in vain - caused it (Bootstrap/Predestination Paradox)

• Kim Possible A Sitch in Time Tempus Simia Cycle

Supernatural:

• Dean convinces his Past Father to get the Impala
• John buys the Impala
• John gives the Impala to Dean
• Dean is sent back to the past

What is an impossible consistency paradox?
Back to the Future: Marty begins to fade away
Futurama: Fry is his own grandfather

Bootstrap Paradox?

Back to the Future: Johnny B. Goode

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

Example: In Terminator, a T-800 is sent back to kill John Conner, fails, and is found by scientists, who then use it's leftover pieces to build Skynet. According to Niles Tyson in Terminator 2, a lot of their ideas would not have been had without the pieces they found.

If we take that to be true, then without the T-800 jumping back in time, there would have been no Skynet to build the T-800 in the first place. It's a self-causing paradox that cannot exist except in the stable state.

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I have not seen the movie but if what you say is true then there is no problem with that. That exactly is a bootstrap paradox. You say "if he would not have jumped back in time". But he did. Before. And before. And before. And before. And before. Always. It just exists and that is all.





Sure, they could have easily went in CT with "we just changed it by using a doll that was never used before because before that what we have seen was really Crono's body and not just as assuming it was" and not have cared about it. And in this case they could have even excluded the doll, because if it really was Crono's body and they overwrote time by swapping him out for the very first time, no matter the replacement, it would still be a consistency paradox. But the inclusion of the doll + the possibility with it to say "okay we have not actually for the first time replaced him but what we thought of the dead Crono was also already the doll" makes it possible for the causality cycle, the bootstrap, to exist, and going with something that is no grandfather paradox is normally nicer. You are mixing a few aspects of multiple concepts together to confuse yourself. I have seen that with a few people by now. You already had the answer in your own post but then proceeded to bring in a few more things that messed it up. Even though it is pretty easy. They always travelled to save Crono because the thought he was dead, therefore saved him, making their past selves believe he was dead while the past self of Crono in reality actually was already in the future. They themselves then proceed doing the exact thing. And that very well is a bootstrap paradox. No change, nothing. Whatever happened, happened. Now I don't remember Chrono Cross so maybe they messed it up by bringing it back there and saying that in that moment they changed something but then they would have messed up the opportunity. However, what they thought of for Chrono Trigger specifically and if the thought about that does not matter when it comes to the overall concept in terms of functionality whenever it is used (so everwhere else), even if the creators of Chrono Trigger would one day say "oh, well, here we did not mean that".

Bootstrap Paradoxes are way more solid, functional and consistent than e.g. Alternative Timelines (the things that people use as explanations to exclude consistency paradoxes) which are nowadays a part of popular internet science as Alternate Timelines have actual causality problems (e.g. Regressus ad Infinitum as the reason for a split can be questioned with "what made that reason exist?" and when someone provides the answer of a difference the answer would be "but then that earlier reason must have already caused the split and what caused the earlier reason and difference to exist - and again and again and again; Regressus ad Infinitum). The Bootstrap has none such as the context of it being and eternally running cycle excludes the necessity of "a normal beginning" in the first place; it only needs itself and working as a cycle is allowed to actually do so. Bootstrap Paradoxes are already stable time loops. The problem that so many people have with it is that they fail to realize that within the context of the everlasting cycle that has no beginning and end it is fully legitimate to power itself. Insisting on "no, things need a beginning" is forcing yourself to not think within the context of the cycle that has no beginning and end and therefore running totally past what a bootstrap paradox is. A bootstrap paradox cheats its way out needing something other than what it consists of to happen and scientists who actually invest a bit more time in that than just thinking "uh but it needs a beginning" very well know its functionality. Guys, do not fall for the word "paradox". Paradox does not automatically mean it is an impossible concept in nature. Nature does include paradoxes. Not all paradoxes are inconsistent and thus impossible. You must be under the impression that you are the first one I am telling this. I assure you, you are not. By far.

No, the reason it's not a Bootstrap Paradox is because it isn't a paradox.

Example of a paradox:

I go back in time. I kill my father. I am than not born. Which means I can't go back in time. And I can't kill my father. So, I'm born. And this repeats.

"At the most basic level, a paradox is a statement that is self contradictory because it often contains two statements that are both true, but in general, cannot both be true at the same time."

There is nothing self-contradictory about the Chrono lives situation. There is no conflict with itself, no self-contradiction. Ergo, it is not a paradox.

A bootstrap paradox DOES contain self-contradictions.

To use the example given by Dr. Who: "A huge Beethoven fan goes back in time to meet his idol, only to find no evidence that he ever existed. Shocked that the world would miss out on his musical genius, the fan takes Beethoven's place, publishing every piece of music and assuming the role, while history keeps going with barely a ripple."

The paradox here is that the fan got his music from the past... But the music in the past came from the future. This is what a bootstrap paradox is. It's a stable paradox because the information exists in any case, but it's a paradox because it has no origin. It just is.

In the Chrono situation, this conflict is not there. Chrono, the doll, the knowledge of using the doll to replace Chrono... All of these have very clear, linear starts and ends. None of them are infinitely repeating upon themselves, and therefore, none of them are a Bootstrap Paradox.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

No, the reason it's not a Bootstrap Paradox is because it isn't a paradox.

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So, you are person x who does not understand the concept of a bootstrap paradox - weirdly enough because you bring in multiple true aspects and then continue saying "no" - and bring in the same wrong reasons to explain why it is not a bootstrap paradox and that makes you right? No. That, is not how it is. To make it even worse, you are actually convinced that a concistency paradox/grandfather paradox is not a consistency paradox, when the major outcome is still the same (changing time by doing something but "it is not so bad if the outcome is not so different" when in reality every change is already an outcome in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

Example of a paradox:

I go back in time. I kill my father. I am than not born. Which means I can't go back in time. And I can't kill my father. So, I'm born. And this repeats.

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That is a so-called consistency/bootstrap paradox. A truly causally impossible thing. You have not understood a single point of my post.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

"At the most basic level, a paradox is a statement that is self contradictory because it often contains two statements that are both true, but in general, cannot both be true at the same time."

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And here we are again with you not understanding that not all paradoxes are true impossibilities. You need to understand first that not paradoxes are impossible events but often just seemingly problematic ideas. E.g. the self-fulfilling prophecy, a psychology concept is paradoxical. It is not impossible though.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

A bootstrap paradox DOES contain self-contradictions.

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It doesn't. You just don't know what an endless cycle is and like others don't understand that this allows it to work - I have really written everything already. That is a big difference. Like many other people you live under the impression something needs to have "a different beginning" which is flat-out not the case because of its very nature. "It exists because it allows itself to exist" is only a problematic situation in a chain of events that is not cyclic. I have already provided you the reasons but you continue to write the same stuff people on youtube and reddit would write and after you actually thinking something that would cause a consistency paradox would not cause one by "only changing minor things" and also not even remotely reading what I wrote but proceeding to behave like 50% of the rest, I cannot even take that seriously anymore. You better never ever write in a post addressed at me "in this context ..." because I am actually pretty pissed now.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

The paradox here is that the fan got his music from the past... But the music in the past came from the future. This is what a bootstrap paradox is. It's a stable paradox because the information exists in any case, but it's a paradox because it has no origin. It just is.

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It is really funny how you keep bringin up examples that are the right and show what a bootstrap paradox is and yet keep insisting that a bootstrap paradox is impossible and that Chrono is no bootstrap paradox. "Paradox" does not automatically mean "impossible". Exactly as I and even you have already said. Whatever happened, happened. A bootstrap paradox "just is". The Novikov Principle. The story of Chrono, if the writer as I have already explained, has not thought of "oh, I have taken something that was not there before" brings in an absolutely normal bootstrap cycle.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

In the Chrono situation, this conflict is not there. Chrono, the doll, the knowledge of using the doll to replace Chrono... All of these have very clear, linear starts and ends. None of them are infinitely repeating upon themselves, and therefore, none of them are a Bootstrap Paradox.

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That would be the case if the guy we saw dying in the game was actually Chrono. But if the guy we do see is the doll in the first place because the time travelling already happened, then it played out exactly the same and therefore also has no actual beginning. Then they saved him because they already saved him but actually could only save him because they always saved him in the first place. But keep on insisting that it is a consistency paradox and that a "minor change is no causal problem just because Doctor Who and a few others have said that maybe that is not bad". That would be way worse than a bootstrap paradox. It then would be one of the many Chrono Trigger paradoxes that actually consists of "changing time" and believe me "oh, but Chrono was replaced by a doll so it is not so bad" does not help at all causality-wise. The way it is displayed it is fully believable that it is a bootstrap paradox because we never see that the guy that "dies" is actually the real, living Chrono instead of a fully functioning doll that mimics exactly what he is like. We never get to learn "this is 100% and under all circumstances not a doll that was already working as replacement". An answer that the developers could give but would actually just make it worse. A bootstrap paradox is a solid, working time-loop. Consistency paradoxes are not. But after my last post and your two last ones I am sure that you a) either do not have spent enough time to actually think about the topic or b) have not even bothered reading my post truly and taken enough time to think about that one and I can't really say what is worse for me.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop
http://www.astronomytrek.com/the-boo...dox-explained/

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in which an event is among the causes of another event, which in turn is among the causes of the first-mentioned event.[3][4] Such causally-looped events then exist in spacetime, but their origin cannot be determined.

The notion of objects or information which are "self-existing" in this way is often viewed as paradoxical,[2] with several authors referring to a causal loop involving information or objects without origin as a bootstrap paradox,[6][7][8][9]:343 an information paradox,[6] or an ontological paradox.[10] The use of "bootstrap" in this context refers to the expression "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" and to Robert A. Heinlein's time travel story "By His Bootstraps".

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Originally Posted by Miriam Webster's Dictionary

Definition of paradox
1
: a tenet contrary to received opinion
2
a : a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true
b : a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true
c : an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises
3
: one (such as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases

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Funny. No definition includes things that "just are". Everything is not a paradox. Please understand the term you use (and even a brief glimpse at its history will show you're wrong) before you attack someone in your defense of it.


Additional: Chrono's salvation is not a time loop. There is no "loop" involved because his fate is open ended.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop
http://www.astronomytrek.com/the-boo...dox-explained/

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in which an event is among the causes of another event, which in turn is among the causes of the first-mentioned event.[3][4] Such causally-looped events then exist in spacetime, but their origin cannot be determined.

The notion of objects or information which are "self-existing" in this way is often viewed as paradoxical,[2] with several authors referring to a causal loop involving information or objects without origin as a bootstrap paradox,[6][7][8][9]:343 an information paradox,[6] or an ontological paradox.[10] The use of "bootstrap" in this context refers to the expression "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" and to Robert A. Heinlein's time travel story "By His Bootstraps".

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Originally Posted by Miriam Webster's Dictionary

Definition of paradox
1
: a tenet contrary to received opinion
2
a : a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true
b : a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true
c : an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises
3
: one (such as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases

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Funny. No definition includes things that "just are". Everything is not a paradox. Please understand the term you use (and even a brief glimpse at its history will show you're wrong) before you attack someone in your defense of it.

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I am afraid you do not even understand your own posts seeing how you constantly give me arguments that actually confirm what I say true.

First of all: Where have I ever said "Everything is a paradox"?

Second, everything that you have just shown very well already shows you that a) not all paradoxes are impossibilities and b) that a bootstrap paradox is not the problematic (impossible) thing that you think of. You on the other hand do not understand in the slightest what a consistency (grandfather) paradox is. You yourself so eagerly have explained a consistency paradox: The killing of an ancenstor. That is a consistency paradox. And guess what the Chrono Trigger thing that you are so hot for to be true is if it actually is the way you claim it is? ALSO a consistency paradox. It does not matter in the slightest that "replacing someone with a doll" leads to pretty much the same outcome if that person actually died before. You would still overwrite the true state of reality that existed before and where you came from. You would not need to kill an ancestor. Such a thing already is an open causality paradox of inconsistency. A bootstrap paradox is not open and it is not inconsistent (and perfectly possible with the doll as well through the mere thought "oh, so it was not Chrono who we saw dying"). You provided multiple sources that even show you that a bootstrap paradox is no impossible problem - so you must be making fun of me on a massive scale. As a matter of fact they all state that they (and their similiar "pre-determination paradox") basically are possible.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

... before you attack someone in your defense of it.

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You mean like the disrespect that you have shown three times by not even reading my posts when they have clearly shown the differences of certain paradoxes and how a and b is used on x and y as well as the fact that you pretty much make fun of me by half-way confirming things while actually believing you do speak against something? You bring in stuff that in general explains bootstrap paradoxes and paradoxes - stuff that I also did and if you would have understood/read my posts (whatever may be the case) you would have even seen where the same things lie). You are disrespectful, I am direspectful.

Okay, let's nip this in the bud. This is taking the thread wildly off topic. Any future posts on the subject will be deleted. Thank you.

I just had a whoa moment the other day. I was playing Dark Souls for the first time in about three years. I was in the fan favorite Blighttown. I started making my way down. Fought my way through bugs and then found a tree branch. Tips on the ground had me hitting everything until a path opened. There were more branches. Worked my way down some more. Fought past these cute baby mushrooms and not so cute big mushrooms. Came out into this log and this music started playing. Stepped outside and was struck by what I saw. This huge almost empty lake. Light was trickling down and there was this giant hydra swimming around. It was hauntingly beautiful. Ash Lake came across the screen.