I figured I'd post this here, since it seems to generate some interesting discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uztX4sKq64M
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I figured I'd post this here, since it seems to generate some interesting discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uztX4sKq64M
So what's your opinion on it?
Final Fantasy VII is Final Fantasy VII and it would be pretty sad if it had to pander to political correctness. I'm intrigued to see how Square Enix are going to handle it.
final fantasy 7 is indeed final fantasy 7 but final fantasy 7 remake is something else entirely
what's the point of remaking every scene exactly the same way or even doing the same characters the same way if some of those previous decisions were probably based on engine limitations?
and i don't see why anyone's worried about this game pandering to political correctness (can you 'pander' to a concept anyway???), because
the whole reason this remake exists is to pander to old fans
i know if i was redoing it, i'd do many things differently and probably 'pander' to political correctness or whatever
why not? we've all grown up a bit in a lot of ways, should we not recognize any internal, company, or external progression that occured in the last 20 years?
this is a re-imagining so i'm not sure why a lot of people are expecting to have even half of the old stuff in there
and honestly maybe it's for the best
and im saying this while ff7 is my fave game ever
If the creators look at something in the game and say "we could have done better" then I'm okay with it. If they look at the same thing and say "I just want this to be different" without any justification or idea how it can also be better, then I disagree. If they look at it an say "Polygon will write a damning article if we keep this". Then I also have a problem
I checked out at "Barret isn't a stereotype, he's a portrayal of a culture!"
Perhaps I'm over simplifying it, but I think these types of videos make mountains out of molehills.
When I played FFVII back in the day, I never once thought that the scenes were portraying any culture or person type, I just enjoyed the characters and scenarios for what they were and that's what I've done every time I've played it.
Now that doesn't mean I don't have dislikes about aspects of some games or that I can't see room for improvement (even with FFVII), but FFVII in my opinion really isn't that much of an offender. There are bigger fish to fry.
Besides Barret's stereotypical ebonics talking (which is more due to the notorious translation) there wasn't anything that was really offensive. Yeah Cid yelled at Shera but it's no different than a typical boss yelling at his incompetent subordinate regardless of gender, he never actually abused her or anything like that, and there are far worse examples in countless other games that go unchecked.
Can you provide some examples of a man verbally abusing a woman where this goes unmentioned? This isn't even considering the fact Shera was right and was willing to DIE for Cid's dream but he's treated her like trout for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Example
Anyway, on the video:
1. Barret is a great character. He is more than just a stereotype. But people seem to think these things are mutaully exclusive. There is plenty of "PROBLEMATIC" fiction that is also very well-written.
2. I don't know anyone who thinks the Crossdressing stuff was "progressive." It was just a laugh. And I agree that if they cut out the hot tub stuff, I couldn't care less if Cloud dresses up like a girl. This happens in a lot of anime. It's just a gag.
Also lol @ that the comments. The video is way better than I expected but the comment section is every bit what I expected. I knew it would be swamped by racists and /pol// types. "It's not homophobic, it's just Japanese culture! That's what they like and who are you to judge them? Also Europe is the one who fetishizes teenagers and Japan just adopted that and they're just trying to defend their culture and...."
Dregs of the smurfing Earth.
I never saw Barret as a racist stereotype. Even if it was more due to the translation than anything else, I thought he was meant to be a Mr T homage. Which I presume was the original intention, so why not translate him that way to solidify it? Sure Mr T is a caricature, but harmless and amusing, and Barret is much better written than a typical Mr T bit
I do think Barret's portrayal was racist. And it really gets on my nerves when people dismissively call any critical inquiry of the ethics of things that have to do with identity, "political correctness". And that's the problem, people don't bother thinking about these things. They just speak what they "feel" from "their perspective", which is usually the perspective of someone who isn't in a minority group.
I want to respond to this and kind of play devil's advocate, but I don't want to sound like an ass about it. I can accept this opinion, and grant that you have a valid point, if you are a person of color. And I don't mean to be completely dismissive, but I regularly hear these kinds of arguments from people saying things are insensitive to gay people or trans people, and they themselves are not gay nor trans, and then see gay and trans people in the discussion saying it's not that badQuote:
Originally Posted by Lamia
Just like the nerdy black friends I've had who have been fans of FFVII who had no problem with Barret. You can have a critical inquiry into the ethics of an identity of any badly written character and call into question a wide assortment of problems. Mostly because they're not written to represent an entire race. Nobody calls into question how badly Yuffie represents asian people. Because she's not meant to represent them. Nobody thinks Cid's drunken abusiveness represents all old white men. Nobody should think Barret is meant to be a representation of black people
So while I may have no right to speak for a culture, I do have an opinion and experience that I, as a child when I played this game, did not see Barret as a representation of a culture, and liking him as a character did not hurt my opinion of black people. Which is the real threat of him being a badly written black character, right? He mis-represents a people, showing them in a bad light, that may skew opinions of impressionable youths. Or is it that he's unrelatable to black people who didn't grow up in the slums and speak with ebonics?
I guess I should eventually watch the video and see what angle they take in there. I've mostly just joined in the discussion because I like the topic. Suffice it to say I don't think Barret was meant to be relatable anyway. He's not an avatar for black people. I didn't relate to any of the white cast. Or asian cast. Or black cast. They were characters I enjoyed playing a game through with and nothing more
Now, I don't mean to sound like I'm unsympathetic when a company creates a problem by being insensitive. I have a dedicated thread I love to rant in, calling out games companies when they step out of line. And I'm completely fine that it looks like the remake will have Barret as a better rounded more fleshed out real character. The caricature isn't something I think needs to stay. I just never saw anyone have a legitimate problem with him at the time
That section was written by a black guy, and the wallmarket section was wrtten by people in the lgbt community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamia
There's way too much reactionary crap surrounding toics like this. The comments section of the video is symptomatic of that, even though the video is largely balanced. There is regressive bulls**t on the left and right that halts all conversation and just turns it into "f**k you sjw", "you're alt right for thinking its not racist/homophobic etc". People just need to cut out the buzzwords and hyperbole, and listen.
Finally watched the video at a computer since I spend most of my time on my phone. Have to say, I agree with everything they said in it. There's a lot of things that could be called into question that weren't meant to be portrayed in a bad light, and don't necessarily need revamped entirely, but I wouldn't have a problem with them tweaking a little to better fit more realistic portrayals that better fit with their original intentions. I would have a problem if they decided to remove or completely rework things, since I totally agree with his mention of Barret as a character written to be a grumpy black guy from the slums, and that's exactly how they made him. If a little over the top. He's not meant to be an educated well mannered black CEO of a corporation with an extended education or vocabulary
And I do agree that the gay guys do come off as predatory and could be tweaked a bit to be less so, but an argument could be made for Cloud's perception of them since he's straight and not particularly fond of getting into a pool with all of them. But that one would seem to need a bit more touching up than Barret. But I still don't want it removed
I go back and forth on whether Barret's protrayal was racist. It honestly isn't for me to say, ultimately. I do think there should be more black people in FFVII, period. Unless I'm forgetting someone, Barret is pretty much the only black person on Gaia.
There are several black characters, but they're all miner (lol see what I did there) NPCs.
When I played FFVII as a child the only part that freaked me out was the section with Mukki in the honey bee inn. And that wasn't because I was homophobic, but simply because I didn't expect it whatsoever and interpreted it as Mukki sexually assaulting Cloud. The cross dressing to me as a Brit (We have a history of laughing at male actors dressed in women's clothing), was simply comic relief to make up for the more serious tones the Game had beforehand (Barret stating the Planet's dying within the first 5 minutes etc). The cross dressing was also necessary to advance plot and unoffensive in NPC reaction. Barret's persona came across as more stereotypical and energetic than Racist, but to me Racism is only important when it has negative connotations, basically I don't believe Square wanted to have people believe all Black people speak as Barret does, instead they wanted to get across he's very passionate to the point of sudden anger, but perhaps I'm wrong, it's hard to find motive in an action. There was never a point to me when Tifa was sexually represented in any way in the game, Women have boobs, some big some small, maybe if every female character had large tits it'd be a misrepresentation but for Tifa it was only mentioned in the fandom. Cid and Shera was explained later in the story and her submissive behaviour too, was explained. Also let's not forget about the Cloud/Barret date scene, which again was comic effect. I doubt there will be many changes to FFVII myself in those areas but who knows? I for one didn't really desire a remake, why remake an already established masterpiece? Not to be cynical, it may be brilliant, but I can imagine nostalgia and such will win over the remake, and it will be forgotten soon or moaned about by the more obsessive fans. But anyways, PC culture having an effect on the remake? I doubt it. :3
America has used cross-dressing for humor as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by -JJ-
http://drjon.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834...1519196970c-pi