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Final Fantasy isn't dead, it's just..... different now.
This may sound like a no-brainer, but whether or not a FF is 'bad' is always subjective. There really hasn't really been a bad FF.....yet. Okay, well a mainline one. ( All The Bravest ).
Agree/ Disagree ?
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As a single player console title it's far from dead, but it's not the industry topping titan that it was in the PSone era. For point of reference, VII and VIII were the 2nd and 4th best selling PSone games, FFXV sits at 18 in the PS4 charts at the moment with a similar number of sales to FFXIII. It's still a very profitable brand and their forays into the MMO and mobile markets (All The Bravest notwithstanding), while not beloved of many on EoFF, have been pretty successful.
Yeah, it’s pretty much alive and kicking. The competition is just much bigger, is all
Financially speaking, FF is still a strong brand and is nowhere near from being described as "dead" by the company or industry. It's far from being literally dead, figuratively speaking though, the series that many of us grew up on is pretty much no more and anyone expecting Squenix to pump out a game on par with their definition of the good old days will likely be forever disappointed due to a combination of major shifts within the company both through personnel and ideology, as well as nostalgia and time being a real bitch to memory and perception.
The closest I can attribute to the idea the series is dead, is something Psy brings up about the series falling from grace in terms of popularity. I mean it's still one of the biggest RPG franchises, but it's not the system selling and hotly anticipated behemoth it was in the PlayStation 1 and 2 eras. It's kind of turned into a bit of joke with the franchise often teased about it's incoherent plots, bad hairstyles and fashion, and the fact it's one of the few Triple AAA franchises that can't seem to muster up a new numbered entry without a decade brewing in development hell or just being released as an obvious beta. The spin-offs are not bad, but largely rely on nostalgia to sell, and it's a bit sad that the most high profile entry on the companies docket after releasing the financially successful FFXV is a remake of a twenty year old game as opposed to fans and contemporaries wondering what XVI is going to be like.
The heydays of the company from the late 90s and early 00s is pretty much gone, and I don't really believe the franchise will ever reclaim that crown due to the changes within the company and the rise of competent competition for the genre. I mean FF is going to still be popular and will likely still be spewing out sequels long after I'm physically dead, but I would be pleasantly surprised if the company ever reclaims it's former glory with the way they've been handling things since the PS2 era.
I think we also need to factor in the fact that we’re all pretty no longer the target audience for these games
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The old FF can't come to the phone right now. Why? Cause it's dead.
Old FF is dead, long gone and dead.
New FF is still kicking and making moolah.
Which is a poor business decision, we are the age demographic that are buying it as we are still loyal to the brand. Go on an FF subreddit or to an FF concert and you tell me what age group you see there. Or go to a nerdy store and see what age group is looking at FF merch. Spoiler: It's them dang millennials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Their intended target audience is more interested in Fortnite, CoD, FNAF, Minecraft, etc. Generation Z are growing up in the era of online console multiplayer and streaming. FF does not lend itself to either of those well.
Final Fantasy is dead.
...LONG LIVE FINAL FANTASY.
No seriously though I'm in the minority in that I think it's *actually* dead. Like they ain't gonna make 'em anymore dead. Otherwise I agree with Freya - it has morphed into something unrecognisable. It's kinda like if your friend becomes a zombie. They're not quite *dead*, per se, but the original person isn't in there anymore.
Hardly. Most big name non-Square JRPGs i.e Breath of Fire and Suikoden have been dead for years, the only ones left that pose any actual threat are Persona and Xenoblade. Tales is still around but too niche to compete with Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
it isn't but maybe it should be.
But they don’t just try to compete with RPGs anymore. Not to mentionJRPGs are no longer one of the biggest genres in the industry. The focus has shiftedQuote:
Originally Posted by ExampleHardly. Most big name non-Square JRPGs i.e Breath of Fire and Suikoden have been dead for years, the only ones left that pose any actual threat are Persona and Xenoblade. Tales is still around but too niche to compete with Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Personal Opinion: They're targeting both demographics. They're putting in as much as possible to keep that Final Fantasy feel for us older folk while still changing the genre to adapt to a new audience so that FF doesn't rely 100% on a bunch of people that will, eventually, phase out of any real importance to the gaming industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticWhich is a poor business decision, we are the age demographic that are buying it as we are still loyal to the brand. Go on an FF subreddit or to an FF concert and you tell me what age group you see there. Or go to a nerdy store and see what age group is looking at FF merch. Spoiler: It's them dang millennials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Their intended target audience is more interested in Fortnite, CoD, FNAF, Minecraft, etc. Generation Z are growing up in the era of online console multiplayer and streaming. FF does not lend itself to either of those well.
I think the ridiculous dev times are what has really hurt this series to be honest. While they were working on their games so many other series were able to come in and take their spotlight.
I agree massively with that. I can't think of many who would disagree. Most other popular series put out a game every 2-3 years at a guesstimate. I guess there is Elder Scrolls that is a comparison point for a series that can take a long time between games but is still a high performer, mind you. They also do that thing that FF does lately where they put out multiple ports/remakes.
I still say the only game you can really point at when you say "long dev times" is Versus XIII, which in the end was vaporware anyway. XV was available 3 years after announcement, World of Final Fantasy..I actually don't know but that can't have been more than 1-2 years either. XIV churns out a top-notch expansion every 2 years.
You could make an argument that the mainline entries are too far apart now, but who knows, maybe they'll get that back on track with XVI. If they bother making it. :p
They're talking about the time between entries based on the older games. The first six FFs were released a year apart from each other with the exceptions of III and VI. VII came out three years later, VIII two, IX -XI a year from each other and then XII came out four years later, then XIII another three, and then XV came out six years after XIV. To add to this wait, we knew XII was in development by the time IX was released so it actually took them six years to make it. We knew XIII was being worked on in 2004, so it took five years to develop it as well which is striking when you consider that VIII-X only took two years to develop a piece, and XI only took a little longer. Even if you discard Versus XIII's time frame (and people should cause it was nowhere near complete, after six years of development) and only take in account when Tabata took over, XV still took four years to develop and many fans still feel like the game needed another year or two to be really finished.Quote:
Originally Posted by WarZidane
It's tough to go from expecting a new entry every other year to having to wait for a new entry every console cycle, SE's developing FFs like Nintendo does their main brand series except they don't get the same accolades by fans and critics like Nintendo does.
Honestly if SE went Nintendo-style with their visuals - ie, went down the road of Kingdom Hearts / World of Final Fantasy - I do wonder how much faster they'd churn out games... and how much that would impact sales, too, of course. I really enjoyed WoFF, so much.
I agree this would be interesting. I've been playing through more of the PS1 generation of Square titles, and frankly, the art direction was all over the place and there was greater visual diversity. You don't see that as much in their console division anymore, mostly mobile gets all the artisitc diversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
The series still commercially viable, there's no denying that.
Yeah, you oldies are too old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
I haven't actually played XV yet, so maybe I'll really enjoy it.
yeah was thinking this too. FFXV, FFXIII etc are all aimed for those who would've had their "entry " into the series with Kingdom Hearts and Crisis Core.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Bravely Default is for us grandpas and grandmas.
The thing is, I don't think this is a successful long term strategy. I could be wrong, though. We'll have to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBPersonal Opinion: They're targeting both demographics. They're putting in as much as possible to keep that Final Fantasy feel for us older folk while still changing the genre to adapt to a new audience so that FF doesn't rely 100% on a bunch of people that will, eventually, phase out of any real importance to the gaming industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticWhich is a poor business decision, we are the age demographic that are buying it as we are still loyal to the brand. Go on an FF subreddit or to an FF concert and you tell me what age group you see there. Or go to a nerdy store and see what age group is looking at FF merch. Spoiler: It's them dang millennials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Their intended target audience is more interested in Fortnite, CoD, FNAF, Minecraft, etc. Generation Z are growing up in the era of online console multiplayer and streaming. FF does not lend itself to either of those well.
Honestly, I think that Square hasn't need to do anything with graphics since KH2. The graphics are fine. Quit building new graphics engines and just make games. Their best games have all been stylized, not hyper realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
And here is the correct answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by maybeeyeah was thinking this too. FFXV, FFXIII etc are all aimed for those who would've had their "entry " into the series with Kingdom Hearts and Crisis Core.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Bravely Default is for us grandpas and grandmas.
Final Fantasy is dead.
But who cares?
We have Bravely Default, I Am Setsuna, and soon Octopath Traveler. Square is starting to make their classic RPGs anymore, and I really don't care if they have the name and logo tacked on them. The Final Fantasy brand doesn't mean anything anymore, except that it's a franchise Square's corporate suits are going to pour over and test with focus groups until its a bland, generic mess that "appeals to everyone". Let them. We're still getting actual RPGs from them again.
Too bad Bravely Second was an uninspired cash grab that pretty much killed all of my interest in this series further :monster:
Well, the opposite is definitely a bad strat. Ignoring the new crowd and only catering to those with less and less time on their hands is clearly a bad long term strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I agree on this part!Quote:
Honestly, I think that Square hasn't need to do anything with graphics since KH2. The graphics are fine. Quit building new graphics engines and just make games. Their best games have all been stylized, not hyper realistic.
Final Fantasy isn't dead. It's trying to adapt to a new age. Either you evolve or you're left behind... Final Fantasy is evolving. It's people that are dying. ;)
You, and they, are assuming that demographics are fixed things. "This appeals to millennials, this appeals to the next generation, etcetera".Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBWell, the opposite is definitely a bad strat. Ignoring the new crowd and only catering to those with less and less time on their hands is clearly a bad long term strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
There are several big, and rather obvious, problems with holding this position and also trying to appeal to everyone.
The first is that your game will lose coherence and direction, and suffer because of it. FFXV is a car driving simulator, an open world game, a fishing game, a Cup Noodle ad, etcetera. It's not an RPG, or an action game, but some unfocused amalgamation.
The second problem is that it will leave the company constantly chasing trends. Look at Boss Key Productions. They start making a game like Lawbreakers, to try to chase the Overwatch money. When they can't break into that niche, they abandon it and switch to Radical Heights, attempting to copy PLAYERUNKNOWNS BATTLEGROUNDS and Fortnite. Each time they try to go aim for a new audience, they'll bring less experience, and less innovation, and they'll wind up a pale shell that is laughable in the face of a market that will already be saturated (or, given how long it takes Square to actually MAKE games, already passed by completely).
Square should just focus on making good games, not on appealing to any "current market trend" or "target demographic", because they'll wind up diluting their skills, entering oversaturated markets, and losing focus on their designs. And sure, FFXV sold more than Persona 5. But Persona 5 was lower budget, built by a smaller team, still has plenty of DLC that is continuing to make ATLUS money, and has developed the sort of rabid fanbase who will throw money at anything with the Persona name on it that Square used to have for Final Fantasy. That era has passed for Square, and it won't come back until they rebuild a franchise with some consistency and history to it.
Wait ? Bravely Second was brilliant !!! Are you okay ? Do you have the flu ? :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Why do you feel this way ?
This is FFXVQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lgLYGBbDNs
Bravely Second was typical anime slice of life schlock. It was perfectly inoffensive, but overall it didn’t take as much risk as the first one. The main cast suffers by taking out two feisty individuals and replacing them with inoffensive warm dumplings - and that makes three of them against one fiery Enea who sadly is not enough to liven up the chemistry between the four. Not to mention the story is an insanely jointed mess. In the last act the game basically goes “oh yeah, there was this thing” and all of the actual story that was fordhadowed in the first game is crammed into the last bit and awfully clashes with the rest of the story. Although no, scratch that - the story is disjointed before that, with the events barely even connecting together. The party just stumbles into things. Say what you will about the first game, but at least it knew where it was going from the start and everything that happened along the way made sense as part of that journey. Also, the jobs are way more broken and unbalanced, which is sad. And the music was inferior on all levels.
I still enjoyed it when I played it. But while I wanted more after the first game, finishing the second made me just want to move on to something else and forget about it.
And outside of the old school crew, it got rave reviews and critics and was pretty much loved by all new players to the FF series. So... maybe an unfocused amalgamation is exactly what the "new generation" want. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
The difference between SE and BKP is that BKP is copying and SE is innovating. You can say what you like about FFXV, but it's still a new, fresh game. Also, SE have always done this. This is not new. Every Final Fantasy has always been different. The only difference between the NES/SNES and these days is that modern computing allows for more variation in what you can do, what you can put in. SE doing things different in each game and trying to appeal to new gamers is nothing new at all.Quote:
The second problem is that it will leave the company constantly chasing trends. Look at Boss Key Productions. They start making a game like Lawbreakers, to try to chase the Overwatch money. When they can't break into that niche, they abandon it and switch to Radical Heights, attempting to copy PLAYERUNKNOWNS BATTLEGROUNDS and Fortnite. Each time they try to go aim for a new audience, they'll bring less experience, and less innovation, and they'll wind up a pale shell that is laughable in the face of a market that will already be saturated (or, given how long it takes Square to actually MAKE games, already passed by completely).
That's why we have Persona as a series and Final Fantasy as a series. You can have both. There is value in both. Both have merit. You don't have to be like Persona to be successful any more than you have to be like Fortnite to be successful. Square still has that fanbase, by the way. I'm probably one of those people. :shobon: I don't care about remasters like FFX HD or whatever but if a new main series game is coming out you better believe I'll buy it. But yeah, Persona can keep doing what it wants to do, and so can Final Fantasy. I really dig Final Fantasy - have watched a bunch of Persona on Twitch but so far it just hasn't grabbed me. Not sure why, but oh well. Like I said, something for everyone - both have merit for different people and thankfully you can indeed have both. :D If there is still a massive market waiting for an old school style JRPG I'm sure someone will tap it, and SE still does them on occasion (such as Bravely Default which was mentioned in this thread by others).Quote:
Square should just focus on making good games, not on appealing to any "current market trend" or "target demographic", because they'll wind up diluting their skills, entering oversaturated markets, and losing focus on their designs. And sure, FFXV sold more than Persona 5. But Persona 5 was lower budget, built by a smaller team, still has plenty of DLC that is continuing to make ATLUS money, and has developed the sort of rabid fanbase who will throw money at anything with the Persona name on it that Square used to have for Final Fantasy. That era has passed for Square, and it won't come back until they rebuild a franchise with some consistency and history to it.
The FF series has been experimental since the PS1 era. Only time will tell whether or not FFXV is an ultimate success or failure, but it's almost guaranteed SE will do something different for the next game. If people like XV's gameplay enough they'll make a direct sequel.
I think that this is the biggest problem that the franchise and SE in general is facing right now. Cutting edge "AAA" games take a lot more time and money than they used to, even more for an RPG. Not to mention the fact that many people still have certain expectations of a main series FF, and the longer the wait the greater the anticipation which can end up backfiring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
I'd still rather have a Final Fantasy, but I'm glad they're releasing smaller RPGs with classic gameplay. Maybe the divide between those and main series FF is too large these days, but we'll have to live with that. I don't expect the FF franchise to go anywhere anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Sure. So they gain new players. Then lose them because the next game is going to be nothing like the old game, because Square can't build a consistent franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBAnd outside of the old school crew, it got rave reviews and critics and was pretty much loved by all new players to the FF series. So... maybe an unfocused amalgamation is exactly what the "new generation" want. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Sure, Square is being innovative. For Square. But Final Fantasy hasn't been innovative for gaming in decades.Quote:
The difference between SE and BKP is that BKP is copying and SE is innovating. You can say what you like about FFXV, but it's still a new, fresh game. Also, SE have always done this. This is not new. Every Final Fantasy has always been different. The only difference between the NES/SNES and these days is that modern computing allows for more variation in what you can do, what you can put in. SE doing things different in each game and trying to appeal to new gamers is nothing new at all.Quote:
The second problem is that it will leave the company constantly chasing trends. Look at Boss Key Productions. They start making a game like Lawbreakers, to try to chase the Overwatch money. When they can't break into that niche, they abandon it and switch to Radical Heights, attempting to copy PLAYERUNKNOWNS BATTLEGROUNDS and Fortnite. Each time they try to go aim for a new audience, they'll bring less experience, and less innovation, and they'll wind up a pale shell that is laughable in the face of a market that will already be saturated (or, given how long it takes Square to actually MAKE games, already passed by completely).
That's kind of my point. You won't buy anything but the mainline games. Meanwhile, ATLUS is pumping out DLC after DLC, and is set to release two cash-in games (Dancing Moon Night and Dancing Star Night) that are both going to sell like hotcakes for far less development cost.Quote:
That's why we have Persona as a series and Final Fantasy as a series. You can have both. There is value in both. Both have merit. You don't have to be like Persona to be successful any more than you have to be like Fortnite to be successful. Square still has that fanbase, by the way. I'm probably one of those people. :shobon: I don't care about remasters like FFX HD or whatever but if a new main series game is coming out you better believe I'll buy it. But yeah, Persona can keep doing what it wants to do, and so can Final Fantasy. I really dig Final Fantasy - have watched a bunch of Persona on Twitch but so far it just hasn't grabbed me. Not sure why, but oh well. Like I said, something for everyone - both have merit for different people and thankfully you can indeed have both. :D If there is still a massive market waiting for an old school style JRPG I'm sure someone will tap it, and SE still does them on occasion (such as Bravely Default which was mentioned in this thread by others).Quote:
Square should just focus on making good games, not on appealing to any "current market trend" or "target demographic", because they'll wind up diluting their skills, entering oversaturated markets, and losing focus on their designs. And sure, FFXV sold more than Persona 5. But Persona 5 was lower budget, built by a smaller team, still has plenty of DLC that is continuing to make ATLUS money, and has developed the sort of rabid fanbase who will throw money at anything with the Persona name on it that Square used to have for Final Fantasy. That era has passed for Square, and it won't come back until they rebuild a franchise with some consistency and history to it.
Just like with FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII, FFXIV, FFXV. SE have always innovated and that's why people come back to them. They've always changed, they've always adapted. Final Fantasy has been an evolving franchise for decades. Some people don't like it as much as time goes on, and that's fine, they can play other games. Or they can try the next one and see if they'll like that one. Or they could do like you say, and be like Call of Duty. Same game, every time. Problem is, eventually people get bored of that trout and want something new. I, for one, am thankful that Final Fantasy is forever doing something different than before. If they'd never changed, they'd still be doing NES-style graphics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I disagree one hundred percent. You might not think they're being innovative, but last I checked pretty much every battle system, even if a minor tweak, has been new. Every world, new. Sometimes new species. Sometimes going so far as to completely rebuild a game. Sometimes new plot twists. Innovating doesn't have to mean creating Virtual Reality or breaking the genre entirely. It means coming up with ways to do things differently. And they do it every time. I can think of very few series that mix things up as much as Final Fantasy has over the years, let alone getting away with it. Most other game series stick to a formula and, sadly for some, not so much for others, grow old and effectively die out as people look for something new.Quote:
Sure, Square is being innovative. For Square. But Final Fantasy hasn't been innovative for gaming in decades.
Is it surprising that I don't buy games that don't interest me? I don't have a huge amount of time, but I do play a large variety of games, and I enjoy them all so far. But DLC? I'm not a fan. I don't denounce it - but I like my game up front. I play the game and then I move on. I don't want to have to wait for the next DLC. I have an MMO for that kind of waiting, and it at least allows me a great community while I wait (couldn't do two MMOs though, although I've tried others). But flicking back to DLC: Do you think people would like Final Fantasy more if they churned out more DLC? :pQuote:
That's kind of my point. You won't buy anything but the mainline games. Meanwhile, ATLUS is pumping out DLC after DLC, and is set to release two cash-in games (Dancing Moon Night and Dancing Star Night) that are both going to sell like hotcakes for far less development cost.
Despite you saying that's your point, I'm really not sure what your point was at all. :S
My point is that Square used to have a fanbase that would buy anything. Spirits Within, Crystal Chronicles, Revenant Wings, Final Fantasy Fables, etcetera. If it had the "Final Fantasy" name, it would sell, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
I know, because I used to be one of those people. If I hadn't been, I probably never would have picked up XIII-2. I wouldn't have even looked at Advent Children (and even then, I only caught the Complete version a few years late) or Crystal Chronicles (despite the fact that I really like that game overall, I only looked at it because of the name).
Currently, Square does not have that kind of fanbase. Their customers are a lot more guarded and discerning. Which is, overall, a good thing for consumers. It's not necessarily ideal for Square, though. The purpose of a business is to make money, and they're starting to deviate so much in quality, consistency, and overall mechanics that fans don't know what to expect from the franchise, and are guarded against it.
Of course they still have that fanbase. It’s just not around here.
Hey, don't you pretend I don't exist. I'm sure there are a large number of people in these forums that still buy every main game that comes out on release day. Pretty sure when FFXV was out we were all playing it together. Equally confident that when FFVII Remake and FFXVI comes out, there will be people on these forums playing them on day one.
I mean, look at the poll.