Saw this topic online recently and was curious to see how our fellow EoFFers may feel on the subject matter.
Printable View
Saw this topic online recently and was curious to see how our fellow EoFFers may feel on the subject matter.
It’s kind of lost it’s luster for me and I’ve jumped ship to other franchises for now, but I’m still hopeful sometimes soon it’ll happen
Nah, I honestly doubt FF will ever produce another truly great game.
It's always possible, but for a game series that supposedly prides itself from starting from scratch with each iteration, there is a lack of creative thinking in Square-Enix.
I'd like to see what another developer could do with the franchise. And perhaps even a western one - but not one of the EA/Warner Brothers/Ubisoft ilk, I hasten to add!
I honestly don't believe a western developer could capture the magic of FF properly. Not a major one or even a smaller one. They may add some creative ideas to the formula, but any time I've seen a western developer take a crack at a Japanese, IP, it's usually not that good.
I reckon Obsidian or CD Projekt Red could do something really exciting with it. It wouldn't be a traditional Final Fantasy game, but I mean Square wants it to be a WRPG so badly they may as well give it to a company that is capable of making them.
I don’t think CD Project is a good fit really. And I’m the one saying it
Bioware and Bethesda too.
...
okay maybe I'm trolling now.
Maybe.
;)
I doubt it, especially with people like Nomura and Toriyama at the helm. Maybe if Sakaguchi came back they might have a chance.
Also no western developers please. Every time a western company takes control of a Japanese series it always ends in disaster. Just look at Silent Hill.
Nope, not a chance.
Bunch of whiners. ;) Sometimes I wonder if it's just that we've gotten older and more jaded, because replaying the older games (including many for the first time), I don't see how they are some incredible heights. VII, V and VIII for me are the tip-top games, but the others are all decent at worst, good at best. Still my favourite series without a shadow of a doubt and I enjoy every game (arguably bar FFII) but yeah, if a person who had no knowledge of FF and just entered the series played them all I don't think they would feel the older games were that much more incredible than the newer ones.
I do think that they could improve a lot, and they aren't at the dizzy heights, but I don't know that any of the older games' stories and worlds, had they been released today instead of back then, would have "put FF on top of gaming". Most would have been blips on the radar, perhaps excepting maybe two or three titles.
I've been satisfied with the series for the most part. XV was a mixed bag for me. I really liked the dungeons, fishing minigame, locations (Galdin Quay is so cool), collecting recipes (and those delicious food renders!), and the overall lighthearted vibe of the game. I didn't like the combat, story, or fetch quests. I feel like SE somehow pulled out a good game despite not being able to figure out how to do the story and combat. It was in development hell forever and I think they just decided to finally release it at the expense of those two things. Somehow they made it work and it's a fun game despite those glaring flaws. So, I think they're on the right track, and hopefully XVI will have a smooth development. Really, only one game in the series has been considered a massive disappointment by gamers at large (XIII). They have won back some favor with XV and seem to know what they're doing now.
I doubt it'll even get its Hojo back
Do you mean FF series used to have a Mojo? ^^; Seriously speaking, I think much of the whining comes from people blinded by nostalgia glasses. Each FF has always been different from the previous titles, and when people get older, they won't enjoy the new games as much as they enjoyed the games they played during their teenage years. To be honest, though, the titles in the FF series were always a hit-or-miss, and claims like "FFs used to have fantastic stories" is mostly a myth: IMHO, there's been at most 3 FFs with an amazing storyline. I'll go through each FF briefly.
- FFI: great replay value with the class choices, this is the FF where I've had the most playthroughs. The game is quite non-linear too, which is nice. The storyline is almost nonexistent.
- FFII: great storyline, but terrible gameplay. The GBA/PSP version made it tolerable, but still among my least favorite FFs.
- FFIII: the game has plenty of nice new ideas that became trademarks in the FF series, but I'm not really a fan of either story or gameplay of FFIII.
- FFIV: I liked the simple story and gameplay when I was a teen, but when I replayed the game (via the 3D remake for Steam), the story felt quite cliched, Cecil stopped being interesting after he turned into a Paladin, and the gameplay is nothing special. Still a classic FF, though.
- FFV: arguably the most addictive FF in the series. Awesome battle system and gameplay, and the retranslated GBA script adds much charm to the characters, even if the story itself is quite weak.
- FFVI: great storyline during the World of Balance, but the story practically stops after that, halfway through the game. It's interesting, though: I thought the non-linear gameplay and side-quests during the World of Ruin were the best parts of the game.
- FFVII: the storyline was great when I first played it, and I also enjoyed the battle system back then, but I'm not sure now. The translation is quite a mess and makes the story more confusing, and the story has been retconned and changed several times in the spinoffs. I replayed the early Midgar parts, and the dungeons were even more linear than FFXIII's infamous dungeons, Cloud felt more like a jerk than cool, and Barret is a major stereotype.
- FFVIII: the love story is forced, but at least it was enjoyable as a teen. The Sorceress story was never interesting to me. The battle system is also completely broken.
- FFIX: probably the best FF storyline, and some of my favorite characters. Unfortunately, when I replayed the game, the battle system was terrible. Battles take 45 seconds to even get started, everything is extremely slow, actions get stuck in a turn queue, and much of the game is too RNG-based to my tastes (stealing from bosses, Ozma, Necron, card game etc).
- FFX: my most hated FF. The battle system is good, but I dislike almost everything else about the game. The game is extremely linear, and you're mostly walking through straight roads with boring music and overly frequent random encounters with a really annoying battle music. The game is full of overly long, unskippable cutscenes. By the time you reach Luca, you know about everything of the storyline, and after that, you just watch the story unfold, and none of the twists after that really mattered to me. Tidus is the most annoying and whiniest protagonist ever, and the voice acting for Tidus and especially Yuna are completely cringe-worthy, IMHO. The minigames are also among the worst in the series: Cloisters of Trials, thunder dodging, butterfly chasing, Chocobo mini-game, the final 10 sphere hunt with icicles and a dreadful camera. The postgame is nothing but endless grinding. Urgh, this is just not the game for me.
- FFX-2: the story is quite weak, but at least the game fixes almost everything that annoyed me in FFX. A nice battle system with ATB and job changes, and fun, non-linear gameplay.
- FFXII: I recently replayed this game, via the Zodiac Age version for Steam, and this game is awesome! The double class system adds lots of replay value, the game's world is huge, and I really like the non-linear gameplay. The political storyline also felt much better than it did 11 years ago on my first playthrough. Oh, and the game got rid of random encounters, which was a very welcome change for me.
- FFXIII: has many of the flaws of FFX, but not as bad, IMHO. A very linear game, and the characters are overly melodramatic. The storyline is pretty good, but the narration is weak (some details are told only in datalogs). The world of Gran Pulse is the highlight of the game, with the non-linear parts and Cie'th stone quests.
- FFXIII-2: fixes most of the flaws of FFXIII. Fun gameplay, and relatively non-linear. The storyline is weak, but the worlds are fun, and it's nice to catch monsters.
- LRFFXIII: the storyline just keeps getting weaker, but the open, quest-based gameplay is neat. Lightning's sarcastic remarks are also amusing. I really dislike the time limit, though. While it's not really an issue, it's still a psychological factor that makes the game more stressful to play.
- FFXV: I've only played the demo (1st chapter), and the game didn't seem like my type of a game. None of the characters seemed interesting to me, and for most of the time, you were just running through huge, empty areas. Supposedly the storyline is quite rushed, but you can't really blame the development team. After Nomura got practically nothing done in 8 years, the team pretty much had to create the whole game in 2 years or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sefie1999AD
I gotta say how incredibly tired I am of hearing this remark. It's so dismissive and hand waves away so much legitimate criticism. I finished playing Persona 5 the other week and I loved it. Absolutely phenomenal game, and I am excited to do another playthrough at some point. I have fond memories of my first Tales game (Vesperia), but Berseria blows that out of the water in basically every way. Just because I'm a bit older now doesn't stop me from being able to have fun, or recognise when the newest version of something is better than the older one. And yet the last time Final Fantasy made me feel like that was FFXII 12 years ago.Quote:
when people get older, they won't enjoy the new games as much as they enjoyed the games they played during their teenage years
It also bugs me when I hear - "But if you go back and play such and such now it's actually kinda bad." Yeah; sometimes things don't age great. I certainly admit that continuing to enjoy something that has aged particularly poorly can be a facet of nostalgia, but that doesn't mean said game was 'overrated' or whatever. I could never get into VI because it was too dated by the time I got around to it, but I can still sure as hell appreciate what it did. Between two and three thousand aircraft cross the Atlantic ocean every day in the year 2018; thinking Charles Lindbergh's flight was pretty cool is not rose-tinted nostalgia goggles.
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but Fox’s post summed up my thoughts. It’s incredibly frustrating constantly hearing people tell you you don’t enjoy whatvthe series has to offer at this point. Forcing yourself to endure misery just because everyone is telling you you’re wrong about the newer games is really harmful tbh, especially since there’s so many games out there for you to enjoy.
Just because change is inevitable doesn’t mean everyone has to like the direction that change is going. So it’s incredibly dismissive to reduce the people who don’t enjoy that direction to “whiners” just because they disagree with you. That said( there nothing wrong with enjoying the new direction. Live and let live.
You have a right to your opinion, but that doesn't remove other people's right to their opinions. If they like newer FFs, it's equally ignorant and dumb to say comments like, "FFX was the last good FF, Square Enix sucks, anyone who likes FF13 or FF15 is a millennial who likes objectively bad games." And yes, there are lots of people who openly state things like that. The new FFs are not beyond criticism, and I never even hinted that they are perfect. In fact, I even criticized them on my post, but the same rules apply to the older FFs too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Maybe, but i don't really care if they don't. There's plenty of fish in the sea. I'm literally drowning in games I want to play and I don't have anywhere near enough spare time to get through them all.
I'm with Fox mostly. There are plenty of new games that I love, both games that are different from what I grew up with, and games that tug on my nostalgia strings. FF13 and FF15 are just not among them. They're passable, but not something I want to invest more than the bare minimum of time into.
In my honest, unbiased opinion, it's all up to where one started with the franchise as to where its "mojo" stemmed from. For me, that was in the PS1 era. I can't discredit FF7 for actually putting Final Fantasy in the mainstream market. But it's always going to be different for other people-- "nostalgia goggles" be damned. (and boy I sure am with the others here-- I hate that insulting old umbrella term. It looks like nothing more than a blatant verbal attack to me.)
I dislike the more recent games not because "oh no it's new and different and I don't like change wah wah look at me I'm whining" but because I deeply, profusely dislike Nomura and Tabata's writing. They're into things that I'm definitely not a fan of; Urban fantasy, for one. Their characters barely appeal to me save for some background noise, and their stories meander off into directions that make me want to spit. If Hiroyuki Ito were put back on board, I'd probably return to loving the franchise as a whole. But for now, my interests are divided.
I love Nomura's art, though. Beautiful character designs. He should have just stuck to that. Although, I will say that his work on FFVIII was an exception for me. That one was, after all, my gateway game. So who knows-- maybe even he can change my mind. But it would take a lot of effort on his part. Tabata... not so much. He has never once directed a single game that I enjoyed.
I prefer to think of it in this light: Way back in Andre Norton's later life, she launched a massive project called "Witch World", which enlisted young and new authors to submit short stories set within its canon world, following some very loose rules. Some of these young authors were one-hit wonders. Others-- well, they wrote something, that's for sure- but their writing just was not good enough to get them the right publicity. And then there are those that moved on to be great authors, like C.J. Cherryh or Mercedes Lackey. Among these stalwart authors, there were (and are) still some not-so-great ones, but they somehow still get their work's worth of fame. They must be appealing to some kind of audience, but it's not the kind that's looking for solid, sensible storytelling. Same thing goes for the likes of EL James and Stephenie Mayer. If we apply that to videogames (and it's not that hard to)- those in charge of the writing and direction of the title should be noted and recognized for their past credentials.
Going back to Final Fantasy & Nomura and Tabata, their track records remain static for me. They, as writers and directors, have taken the franchise in their direction, and it will never change unless they change their style OR another director is put in charge in their place. These guys are to be held accountable for everything because they're the ones that give the ok for battle mechanics, UI designs, the whole nine yards. In the end, they do appeal to a large audience, otherwise they wouldn't be able to stay afloat as directors. We can also apply that to FFIX, Hironobu Sakaguchi, and Hiroyuki Ito-- Ito and Sakaguchi were the ones that made IX possible, and for some, that's not a combination that worked well. For me it's a dream team, the likes of which we may never see again. Those are just a few of many names that have become famous off their work. And as some directors and writers grow older, their sensibilities mature, and they might take to concepts they hadn't before. Some even fall from grace. We can observe examples of this distortion of direction elsewhere, in the Tales series, in Elder Scrolls, in Thief and Tomb Raider and so, SO many other things. For better or worse. And fan incentive can't exactly influence that.
But... I probably said too much now. TL;DR version: It's not the times that I care about, but who's in charge and what THEY, as people, are doing. So it gives me hope, knowing that 1) FF never has the same director/writers for long and 2) people are always changing-- game devs included.
Not only that, but the way the both of them treat women characters. 3rd Birthday and Crisis Core can go and die in a ditch somewhere.... Not being a "sjw " or anything, but the removal of Aya's clothing the more she gets hurt was Nomura's idea, and Tifa's 15 year old Cowgirl Outfit is just disgusting. Don't get me started on KH where Kairi has been pushed aside for many games and she finally might be becoming a proper keyblade wielder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Shopkeeper
Sexualized women characters are fine, but not when they are a TEENAGER and not when it's borderline rape-y with 3rd Birthday. Characters who start as a damsel are fine too, but train them up eventually, and don't push them aside for sixteen years.
You can have characters like GBA version of Edward from FFIV, who starts out feeble and frail, but becomes a absolute boss later on.
I'd like to talk about Tabata's work a bit too. From what I've seen about Final Fantasy XV so far (after watching some more clips and gameplay throughout the game), I wasn't really impressed. The bros and their bonding in a road trip doesn't really interest me, so hopefully the characters will have some more interesting moments later. Noctis seems like a combination of a spoiled prince and a brooding Squall, and I'm not a fan of such character type. The others were so forgettable that I always have to check their names to remember who's who. Gladiolus as the big muscular guy just seemed meh. Ignis being the smart guy and Prompto being the playful guy were at least a bit more interesting. The female characters aren't exactly impressive, either: Lunafreya seems very underdeveloped, and Cindy is nothing but a sex object. I'm somewhat okay with her dressing up so scantily, but the camera gives me just awkward moments when it focuses on her breasts or butt. Come on, I may have found such childish humor funny when I was 11. :roll2Quote:
Originally Posted by maybeeNot only that, but the way the both of them treat women characters. 3rd Birthday and Crisis Core can go and die in a ditch somewhere.... Not being a "sjw " or anything, but the removal of Aya's clothing the more she gets hurt was Nomura's idea, and Tifa's 15 year old Cowgirl Outfit is just disgusting. Don't get me started on KH where Kairi has been pushed aside for many games and she finally might be becoming a proper keyblade wielder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Shopkeeper
Sexualized women characters are fine, but not when they are a TEENAGER and not when it's borderline rape-y with 3rd Birthday. Characters who start as a damsel are fine too, but train them up eventually, and don't push them aside for sixteen years.
You can have characters like GBA version of Edward from FFIV, who starts out feeble and frail, but becomes a absolute boss later on.
Nomura was the character designer in FFX, if I remember correctly, and I thought the game had stupid moments too, such as the camera constantly zooming in on Lulu's cleavage, or Rikku's butt when she's wearing the diving suit or taking it off. Come on, she's 15! Yunalesca was also really strange, being half-naked and then slowly transforming into a monster with tentacles. I don't want to sound like an "SJW", and I usually enjoy dirty jokes, but bad character writing and overly juvenile humor just don't improve the gaming experience, IMHO.
To be fair to Tabata, he's not in charge of the design of the females. In fact, Cindy "jiggled so much" in the early builds, Tabata had them tone it down according to interviews. I'm not saying he's some saint or anything, but he seems to at least understand that such blatant sexual fanservice isn't okay with part of the fanbase, especially in the West.
The writing is a bit different, but in CC's case, that was out of his hands and Nojima's retcons to the characters, though I would say Cissinei was probably one of the better original characters to come out of the Compilation. XV goes back and forth. Cindy does have a bit more depth to her, but it's also obvious she's here for fanservice. Lunafreya is underutilized and feels more like Compilation Aerith where she's more of an ideal than a person. On the other hand, Iris and Aranea are some of the best NPCs in the game, far better developed than Cor (a guy who was meant to travel with the team in Versus XIII) and Genitana was one of the surprise hit characters for me in XV. Of anything, the two females who got the most marketing underperformed, whereas the ones who weren't shown ended up having the most depth to them. He certainly could have done more for Lunafreya, especially when the character she replaced had more potential from the early trailers of vXIII. Cindy is certainly a mark against him cause while I feel her questline gives her some good characterization, the pandering to the more pervy part of the fanbase is pretty obvious.
I really need to get back to Type-0, which I feel would be a more fair assessment of Tabata's style since it's an original piece and not him being roped into work on another person's concept.
************************************************************************************************
To swing this back to the original topic, I was reading an interview between Famitsu and the DQ team where they discussed the possibility of a large scale HD 3D remake of any of the classic DQ titles. While the team said they thought about the possibility of doing so with DQIII, they ultimately decided it would be better to simply focus on DQXII instead, and this kind of caught me by surprise of the difference between DQ's producers and FFs. Let's face it, XVI is on hiatus until the VIIR comes out, and it's always struck me as peculiar that so many FF fans would rather see a remake of an older game than a new entry, which I feel is telling of the series and the fans in general.
Ah yes, Type-0, the game where they specifically went out of their way to give each one of the 16/17 year old schoolgirls their own unique set of panties that changed with their outfit because they thought players would be disappointed with an empty void.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Well then, he's no better than the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticAh yes, Type-0, the game where they specifically went out of their way to give each one of the 16/17 year old schoolgirls their own unique set of panties that changed with their outfit because they thought players would be disappointed with an empty void.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno