What in the smurf is Final Fantasy IX fans problem?

I've been wondering for a while why do Final Fantasy 9 fans seem to hate Final Fantasy 7 so goddamn much? Final Fantasy 7 was the first one I've ever played and it's still to this day one of my favorite games of all time. Personally I think Final Fantasy 9 is an excellent game and should be treated with as much respect as 7 6:10 and 4. whenever I'm reading on forums people discussing which one they think is the best Final Fantasy how is notice Final Fantasy 9 fans seem to have a tremendous amount of hate for Final Fantasy 7. I don't understand why they can't just discuss why they dislike the game without insulting both it and the people who consider it their favorite. Can somebody please explain to me why they have so much dislike for 7? Because as much as they may not like it ,there's no denying that it's the best selling Final Fantasy and the most popular. Thank you to all replies and once again I would like to state that I have no problem with Final Fantasy 9 while I do not think it's as good as seven mainly because I feel the weapon system is a little funky and it doesn't seem to give you a lot of chances to train I still consider it to be one of the best final fantasies ever made. Thanks to all who reply!

Hi Nethuzad,

Interestingly, I've never come across anyone who likes FF9 and dislikes FF7, obviously they exist and there isn't a lot we can do about it as frustrating as that is. Personally I don't care about all the people hating it because I'm too busy loving it. FF7 and FF9 are my two favourite FF games by the way.

MZ

That’s a bit of a generalization

I don't hate 7? Please.

I hate 8. Entirely different.

Ive I've just been going through a lot of forms and stuff lately and I've noticed it seems like there's a lot of hate for seven going on. And I've noticed that the people who seem to hate 7 the most always speak of the greatness of 9. I'm not saying nine isn't a great game but it seems like they really hate 7 like seriously there's been like a lot of Internet Hate I've noticed for Final Fantasy 7.

I don't mean to rant and rave I was just reading an article on Kotaku. Net about the Final Fantasy ultimania guides coming by Dark Horse and in it Kotaku mentions that the three part volume for seven eight nine is coming out but he mentioned he referred to it as 7 8 and the best one. I guess it just stirred up resentment from back in the day I remember around 2010 through 13.it seems like everybody was hating on Final Fantasy 7 like it went from being the most loved Final Fantasy to the most hated LOL

Funny, coz it seems more often to me that it's FF7 fans that have the problem with FF9 and its fans. As for myself, my opinion of FF7 is my own and nobody else's. I went in expecting it to live up to the hype after having played 8 and 9, and then being told on various occasions that it's better than "both of them combined". I came out disappointed (even insulted), and the spinoffs and 7 fans creating drama/going out of their way to make 9/8/everything-else-fans feel bad only made it worse. And I had to put up with it alone for several years before I finally came out of my shell and reached out for a like-minded community. So... Yes on my part it's resentment. I don't hate the game at all. I treat it just like any other game-- but its fan community ruined it for me outright. Perhaps if it weren't for them, I'd have a better opinion of it overall.

And there you have it-- I think most of the 'hate' you see coming from FF9 fans is created from being literally harassed and scoffed at by FF7 fans invading their conversations about 9 and throwing shade for years, ever since 9 was first released 18 years ago now(and it still happens to this day, surprisingly). As with anything else in the world, that behavior has garnered a backlash from those that prefer 9 most of all. Of course I've also seen 6 and 4 fans throw shade at 7 and its fans as well, probably moreso. It would be nice for everyone to get along and not be jerks at each other over something as petty and non-existent as "best final fantasy", but this will never happen because people are stubborn. And we as a species unfortunately thrive in part off hate.

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Originally Posted by Black Magic Shopkeeper

Funny, coz it seems more often to me that it's FF7 fans that have the problem with FF9 and its fans. As for myself, my opinion of FF7 is my own and nobody else's. I went in expecting it to live up to the hype after having played 8 and 9, and then being told on various occasions that it's better than "both of them combined". I came out disappointed (even insulted), and the spinoffs and 7 fans creating drama/going out of their way to make 9/8/everything-else-fans feel bad only made it worse. And I had to put up with it alone for several years before I finally came out of my shell and reached out for a like-minded community. So... Yes on my part it's resentment. I don't hate the game at all. I treat it just like any other game-- but its fan community ruined it for me outright. Perhaps if it weren't for them, I'd have a better opinion of it overall.

And there you have it-- I think most of the 'hate' you see coming from FF9 fans is created from being literally harassed and scoffed at by FF7 fans invading their conversations about 9 and throwing shade for years, ever since 9 was first released 18 years ago now(and it still happens to this day, surprisingly). As with anything else in the world, that behavior has garnered a backlash from those that prefer 9 most of all. Of course I've also seen 6 and 4 fans throw shade at 7 and its fans as well, probably moreso. It would be nice for everyone to get along and not be jerks at each other over something as petty and non-existent as "best final fantasy", but this will never happen because people are stubborn. And we as a species unfortunately thrive in part off hate.

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I can understand what you're saying about that. Has the saying that some of the hardcore Fanboys can ruin the experience for people. Well I do think it's the best I've personally I've never had a problem with 9. So I will say I've always felt the battle system and 7 was much more smooth. My problem with 9 was always it felt like I never had time to properly train my characters. Even though I made sure to always fight every enemy that I had a random encounter with I always seem to be underleveled

I have encountered this enough, or at least a variant of it, often with people who drift to the more elitist side of things who enjoy telling me the only reason I don't think FF9 is one of the best entries in the series is because I jumped on the ship with FF7 and have absolutely no appreciation for / awareness of the classic series. Sad to say this has fueled some serious subconscious bias against the title for me over the years.

That said, the majority of people I know who absolutely adore the game seem to have grown up with it, generally being one of the first titles in the series they played, and they tend to be pretty live and let live about things, though I can't imagine them not being annoyed by other titles being tossed out whenever they try to share what they like about IX, as Shopkeeper mentioned.

Also, I've noticed it is oddly hip to bash on FF7 in particular, with only 2 really catching flak to a somewhat comparable degree, and I suspect that's what you are seeing in that Kotaku article, so I wouldn't think of that as FF9 fans so much as pandering.

I love FF9, but I don't hate FF7. That's more FF13.

Final Fantasy games mean a lot to its fans and they put a little bit of their identity in their favourite game. When you undermine a title in the series, you are also undermining its fans sense of self-worth.

Final Fantasy VII is the most popular and acclaimed title, and fans of Final Fantasy IX feel rejection and a lack of validation in the shadow of FFVII. The FFIX fans thus lash out at it, incorrectly perceiving it as the source of all of their woes rather than taking a look in the mirror and noticing perhaps there's other reasons for their beloved's lack of fanfare. FFVII is, to them, the proverbial popular kid who gets all the cute boys/girl it wants while they're sitting at home with no prom invite.

Final Fantasy VII fans are fully aware of their game's generally perceived superiority and when this is challenged they feel fear at losing their place at the top of the pyramid. They quickly belittle other titles to try to neutralise the threat to their place in the social hierarchy and so their own ego. If I am not #1, then who am I? The braggadocio is to mask their own insecurities.

By the way, I am talking absolute nonsense that I just made up. Hope you enjoyed another post by Psychotic.

Psy is biased because he’s a VII fan.

Personally, my experience is that FFVII is kind of a scared cow of the franchise, despite being immensely flawed. I still like it, but I still like to point out the issues it has because I simply feel VII sometimes dominates, being the de facto face of the franchise. But of course, there are extreme fans everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Fynn

Psy is biased because he’s a VII fan.

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Psychotyczność nie jest stronnicza, ponieważ jego post był ironiczną dekonstrukcją fałszywej analizy psychologicznej. Nie bierz tego dosłownie, mój drogi przyjacielu!

Stop appropriating my culture, uncultured swine!

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

Final Fantasy games mean a lot to its fans and they put a little bit of their identity in their favourite game. When you undermine a title in the series, you are also undermining its fans sense of self-worth.

Final Fantasy VII is the most popular and acclaimed title, and fans of Final Fantasy IX feel rejection and a lack of validation in the shadow of FFVII. The FFIX fans thus lash out at it, incorrectly perceiving it as the source of all of their woes rather than taking a look in the mirror and noticing perhaps there's other reasons for their beloved's lack of fanfare. FFVII is, to them, the proverbial popular kid who gets all the cute boys/girl it wants while they're sitting at home with no prom invite.

Final Fantasy VII fans are fully aware of their game's generally perceived superiority and when this is challenged they feel fear at losing their place at the top of the pyramid. They quickly belittle other titles to try to neutralise the threat to their place in the social hierarchy and so their own ego. If I am not #1, then who am I? The braggadocio is to mask their own insecurities.

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....is.... Is this true art that I'm seeing? Good lord, I think it is. This is like....all the most notable behavior I had to put up with over the years, except wrapped in the neat little rose-scented package that is parody.

I don't think i have anything else to say in here now...

[EDIT]
Except that, thinking over rez09's post, I realize I'm still the only person i know that would stand by FF2 despite everything it did horribly wrong :lol:
FF7 isn't even one fifteenth as broken as 2---nothing is, and still I hold my salute.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-n2RtYbBCR...dEndDoors1.png

Some things cannot be forgiven.

Nah, I love FFII

Never forgive, never forget....
But man i should replay it to see if my patience with it has changed.

Oddly enough, I do see this among my own friends. Outside of this community, among my circle of friends, those who tend to favor VII more than say me, tend to also strongly dislike IX with a passion, whereas the opposite is true concerning IX lovers not liking VII. Course most of my friends are self-proclaimed line artist and most of the issues stem from the art direction but whatever.

Personally, I feel the real rivalry is VI vs. VII, whereas IX tends to be overlooked cause it doesn't have the same PR as VII and X or the controversy of VIII going for it. There is certainly a healthier IX fanbase on this forum, but not so much elsewhere that I've seen. I think the surge of popularity VII brought to the fanbase as well as more obnoxious elements of said fanbase back in the day (most VII fans are pretty chill nowadays) probably gave a lot of resentment towards the rest of the fanbase, which is why you'll often see the game get picked on far more often in non-VII focused parts of the internet unless the topic jumps to a more controversial titles like FFII, VIII, and every post-FFX entry.

Oddly enough, I've been seeing this a lot more in the professional critic community as well since often top RPG lists tend to downplay VII more lately and often gives more credit to other titles. Not sure if this is pure backlash against the game or people finally trying to look at VII more objectively, both sides of the argument will likely jump to their conclusion and stick with it.

IX fans and VII fans are natural enemies, like VI fans and VII fans, or VIII fans and VII fans, or X fans and VII fans, or VII fans and other VII fans.

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Originally Posted by Example

IX fans and VII fans are natural enemies, like VI fans and VII fans, or VIII fans and VII fans, or X fans and VII fans, or VII fans and other VII fans.

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Damn FFVII fans! They ruined FFVII!

Damn FFVII fans, they ruined FFVII!!

I agree with both Psy and WK on great points. I wouldn't say it's insecurity as Psy says, but rivalry and competitiveness. It's bravado, ego, banter, all that kind of thing. WK points out that he sees it as VI vs. VII - I'd say both are very much the major rivalries of FF history. I think of it as siblings. You can have three siblings with a healthy rivalry. FFX is another one out there that sometimes kicks in. The fans are just picking their team and the rest is no different than sibling rivalry, sports rivalry, etc. It's all good in the end. A healthy fan will recognize the good in various games and whether or not they say their favourite is better than the others is up to them, I don't mind. And if they're saying FFVII is best, then hey, they'll even be right! :D

FFII is better than FFXV and FFXIII trilogy. Fite me.

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Originally Posted by maybee

FFII is better than FFXV and FFXIII trilogy. Fite me.

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FFII is the worst Final Fantasy. :shobon: I've played them all, and it's definitely the worst!

It’s a wonder you still haven’t been institutionalized, BoB

Ah, no argument against what I said, then. Good. :aimsun:

Whatever lets you sleep at night

FFIX is my favorite FF (not counting XIV, but it's a different beast), but I love FFVII and it was the first game that introduced me to the series. At the same time, I recognize FFVII is an objectively bad game. The story is terrible (although it started out great), the battle system is bland and uninspired; every character is a blank cookie cutter slate*, the graphics were kind of trash even for the time and have aged horribly. The music...okay, the music is smurfing fantastic, as are the pre-rendered backgrounds. Lordy.

FFIX improves on all of this in every way (except maybe the music is tied). The story is great, the characters are complex. The battle system is much more fun with jobs and being able to pick and choose your abilities based on an area or fight. The mini-games are stupidly fun--actually, I'd venture a guess that that's what people enjoy more about it. It's not some edgelord emofest. Sure, FFVII had humor, but FFIX is just so much more light and ENJOYABLE while also having a moving and mature story. Admittedly, the art is something that a lot of people have an issue with, and I do think is an acquired taste. But still leagues and away better than FFVII. Save Cosmo Canyon and Midgar, even the areas are more interesting and fun to look at and explore.

But I still love FFVII. And rarely do I trout on it. At times I've been known to give it what myself, and others, consider fair criticism. But that's not the same as hating it.

A lot of people make jokes about how FFVII is overrated trash (it is), but still love it. Maybe you don't understand how jokes work?

Also, maybe you shouldn't come out with "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!" if you want to have a serious discussion or are asking a question in good faith. But maybe that's just me. ¯\_(ツ)_/

EDIT: *I mean within the context of battle, not the story. The characters are actually one of the few truly good things the story has going for it. Except Aeris and Cloud.

I honestly think FF9 had by far the worst battle system of the entire series, barring the NES games which I haven't played yet, and it's the only battle system I would actually call "bland and uninspired". It's just so painfully, agonizingly slow even when compared to its predecessors, and did nothing to innovate unlike every FF before it. Also I never understood why people trout on FF7's plot, especially after the first disc. Is it because of the tone change and plot twists? Because 9 was hardly any better in that regard, especially when you got to Zidane's home world.

It’s because on replay I found out the story totally falls apart by then with the huge materia quest being one of the most contrived, idiotic plots I’ve ever seen in a video game. Shinra is trying to save the world at this point and your party is literally trying to prevent them from doing that just because Shinra’s doing it and not them. At a point where Meteor is already falling and you have seven days to live. Instead of trying to come up with an actual plan, they go ahead and sabotage the guys with the actual plan.

That is smurfing dumb and indefensible.

And even though I’m not big on IX’s battle system (ATB peaked at IV), I still like it more than VII’s since at least the bars never stop going, while FFVII has the bars stop for every tiny animation even on active. And that’s more frustrating to me.

And just keep in mind that I still like FFVII despite sounding harsh, but It’s just that I hadn’t realized how stupid everything past disc 1 is until my recent playthrough, so I felt a little betrayed because VII had been in my top tier before that. Now - not so much, but I still like it and would definitely return to it someday

Huh. I'm normally fairly negative towards IX, relatively speaking, but the combat is always what I've considered one of its high points, especially in regards to the other two PS1 entries; the general restrictions on your party always made choices feel more strategic and meaningful. Whole lot less black-mage-healer-dps-tanks in the game, you know?

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Originally Posted by Fynn

It’s because on replay I found out the story totally falls apart by then with the huge materia quest being one of the most contrived, idiotic plots I’ve ever seen in a video game. Shinra is trying to save the world at this point and your party is literally trying to prevent them from doing that just because Shinra’s doing it and not them. At a point where Meteor is already falling and you have seven days to live. Instead of trying to come up with an actual plan, they go ahead and sabotage the guys with the actual plan.

That is smurfing dumb and indefensible.

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The point probably is that the huge materia shouldn't be used like this, and it should be protected, but even then it is a poorly done storyline, because of exactly what you said. If they had made it more clear that what Shinra was doing was still bad, albeit with good intentions, like they could have made it obvious that Meteor wouldn't be destroyed this way, and that Shinra are not only fighting a lost cause, they could be doing something wrong unknowingly (like the Meteor could gain power from being near materia, hence why you have to stop Shinra using it, for instance.)

As the way the story stands, it just seems to be "The gifts of the planet must be protected by the evil corporation" which, while the overall storyline of the first part of the game, there's a time and a place for that, and it's not now. Basically, yeah, they should have handled that better.

Also it's strange - Final Fantasy VII is my favorite of the series, but I also think it pales in some places when compared to Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VIII and Final Fantasy X. Basically, FFVII was my first of the series, and it means a lot to me, and I do see where it has a superiority to the other games, at least in my opinion, but I think with the battle system of both FFVIII and FFX (i.e. interactive) and the overall unique characters of all the three games I mentioned (and other FFs), I think it could have been a lot better,

So yeah, the strange part (in case it got buried in my rambling) is that I still find FFVII the best, but think it did some things worse than other FFs

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Originally Posted by Jinx

the battle system is bland and uninspired; every character is a blank cookie cutter slate*, the graphics were kind of trash even for the time and have aged horribly.
It's not some edgelordemofest. The characters are actually one of the few truly good things the story has going for it. Except Aeris and Cloud.

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What ????

What the smurf ?????

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Originally Posted by Fynn

It’s because on replay I found out the story totally falls apart by then with the huge materia quest being one of the most contrived, idiotic plots I’ve ever seen in a video game. Shinra is trying to save the world at this point and your party is literally trying to prevent them from doing that just because Shinra’s doing it and not them. At a point where Meteor is already falling and you have seven days to live. Instead of trying to come up with an actual plan, they go ahead and sabotage the guys with the actual plan.

That is smurfing dumb and indefensible.

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Finally some good food.

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Originally Posted by Jinx

the graphics were kind of trash even for the time

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now listen here u little trout, the pre-rendered backgrou-

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Originally Posted by Jinx

The music...okay, the music is smurfing fantastic, as are the pre-rendered backgrounds. Lordy.

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Oh. Welp. Never mind. You're cool. :shobon:

Real talk though, while FFVII's field character graphics are not a hill I'm going to die on because they were indeed ugly, I do think some credit is due what they did with those models. I always remain impressed with how each character had unique walking and running animations when it would've been far simpler to give everyone the same generic movement animations. I also really like how they all had their own little personal animations like the Aerith lean, Yuffie air punching or Barret beating his chest. I guess what I'm saying is yeah, they were ugly, but they worked well with what they had to give them a sense of personality and identity.

Also, even outside of the character models and pre-rendered backgrounds they did some neat little tricks to do the best with what they had. Here's a cool little video (in a wonderful series) that I hope you'll all find interesting. It's worth your time I promise!

I'll meet you in the middle, Psy, and say that the FMVs were not bad to look at, and still aren't. Aged, yes. But age =/= bad.

Maybee--every character in FFVII is the same, except for some minor stat differences. Their fighting/weapons are purely cosmetic. Aeris is THE only character that arguably is meant to be a specific role. Every character is able to equip the same materia and be a mage, and that to me is bland and uninspired. Abilities in the game are basically useless. Yes, they can make things easier, but outside of the Cure line, the entire game can be x-mashed.

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Originally Posted by Jinx

every character in FFVII is the same, except for some minor stat differences. Their fighting/weapons are purely cosmetic. Aeris is THE only character that arguably is meant to be a specific role. Every character is able to equip the same materia and be a mage, and that to me is bland and uninspired. Abilities in the game are basically useless. Yes, they can make things easier, but outside of the Cure line, the entire game can be x-mashed.

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Sorry to interrupt, but yeah, that's basically what I was saying earlier about "unique characters" - if Final Fantasy VII had somehow mixed the materia system with a unique system for each character (i.e. there are some abilities that everyone can learn, but other abilities that are unique to a specific character, that aren't Limit Breaks) we could have had an interesting system.

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

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Originally Posted by Jinx

every character in FFVII is the same, except for some minor stat differences. Their fighting/weapons are purely cosmetic. Aeris is THE only character that arguably is meant to be a specific role. Every character is able to equip the same materia and be a mage, and that to me is bland and uninspired. Abilities in the game are basically useless. Yes, they can make things easier, but outside of the Cure line, the entire game can be x-mashed.

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Sorry to interrupt, but yeah, that's basically what I was saying earlier about "unique characters" - if Final Fantasy VII had somehow mixed the materia system with a unique system for each character (i.e. there are some abilities that everyone can learn, but other abilities that are unique to a specific character, that aren't Limit Breaks) we could have had an interesting system.

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Agreed. I do think it was """"inspired"""" for its time, as it was the first game to really fully break tradition with the job system of past titles. But I think it broke it a little bit too much. FFVIII is for better or worse the same system with an extra "feature" (Drawing your magic). After that, the series went back to its roots. I haven't played FFXIII or FXV, so I can't say if they stuck with that.

But yeah, if they'd done just a little bit more outside of limit breaks to differentiate the characters, I might not be here saying it's bland.

As always I feel like I have to qualify this post by saying I love FFVII despite its flaws, and sometimes because of them (this guy are sick).

It's truly a sad and pitiable thing for fans to join a conversation meant to praise one game only to try to sway the topic onto the game they like better or trash the topic game. Making unbiased comparisons is acceptable (though admittedly slippery territory for those not already experienced in debate or journalism or writing unbiased reviews) in moderation, but if your only concern is telling everyone how much you love an entirely different game, join or start a different conversation for THAT game.

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Originally Posted by Jinx

Maybee--every character in FFVII is the same, except for some minor stat differences. Their fighting/weapons are purely cosmetic. Aeris is THE only character that arguably is meant to be a specific role. Every character is able to equip the same materia and be a mage, and that to me is bland and uninspired.

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Fair enough ! Though the Materia System and how you use it is basically up to you. Do you want Cloud as the healer? Done. Vincent as the Black Mage? Done. Tifa as the brawler with no materia expect for protecting materia ? done. Barret as the summoner? Done. Cid as the Blue Mage? Done.

Or you could just keep some things fair between the party and give everybody a bit of healing and elemental magic each, or just give everything to Cloud, or not really use materia for the party at all, or even just have the summons or protecting materia.

Yes, they can equip the same materia and be a mage, but only if you make it so.

You could " FF3/FF5 " everybody with a "job class system ", or you could do something like FF10 and have a "summoner ", or you could "FF8" things and a keep a limit on magic use, unless you have too.

I thought that you meant characterization wise though, which is why I was disagreeing so much because one character believes that he's somebody else for a decent chunk of the story, and another character is a talking dog.

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Originally Posted by Jinx

Yes, they can make things easier, but outside of the Cure line, the entire game can be x-mashed.

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To be frank though, all of the FF's can, if you allow it so.

Pretty much every RPG can, if you invest the time.

Except for XII since you can just watch the game play itself.

Only if you really know what you’re doing and put in time and effort to come up with an algorithm that will make the game play itself

Unlike XIII where all you do is press a button and the game does all that stuff you don on your own in XII for you

Nah, XIII is the only game in the single player series that you literally can't rely on smashing X to win for 99% of battles, because they cap your level and force you into situations that you have to consider what three jobs are best suited to the situation, and have to alter between those job sets. People who are blind ignorant to this baffle me, and I can only assume it's because they don't like the game so are trying hard to find ways to trash it.

You could argue that you can do a lot more variety in moves by smashing X because the game puts in the generally best patterns, basically a gambit system set up for each job, but in the end you are having to do marginally more than you have to in all the other games unless you're doing a low-level run (and you can do that in FFXIII, too).

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Nah, XIII is the only game in the single player series that you literally can't rely on smashing X to win for 99% of battles, because they cap your level and force you into situations that you have to consider what three jobs are best suited to the situation, and have to alter between those job sets. People who are blind ignorant to this baffle me, and I can only assume it's because they don't like the game so are trying hard to find ways to trash it.

You could argue that you can do a lot more variety in moves by smashing X because the game puts in the generally best patterns, basically a gambit system set up for each job, but in the end you are having to do marginally more than you have to in all the other games unless you're doing a low-level run (and you can do that in FFXIII, too).

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Oh BoB, you and your defense of XIII's combat system.

The issue is that you're stuck with six classes, as opposed to XII where you could build your party around weapon and magic types which gave you over twelve different options with character builds.

Of the six classes, half have great synergy with each other and the other half have great synergy with themselves. Due to bonuses you get for having certain classes together, it's usually better to group these classes in this way to maximize yourself. Tactics basically falls into the player building three variations of the same paradigm sets. You'll have one offensive mage focuses set for breaking the enemy guard, and a physical one for when it breaks. Then you'll have a sentinel with a two medics, a medic and a Synergist, or a sentinel with a medic and Saboteur if your staying offensive focused. Battles devolve quickly into using the first combat set to break the enemy, switch to the second combat mode when they do break, occasionally switch to one of the three defensive sets mentioned above if the enemy happens to actually survive a break and you need to keep the troops alive. Then you rinse and repeat until you win.

With the lack of variation among the cast, the auto-attack option making your own in-battle contribution meaningless outside of paradigm shifting, and the more difficult battles often just involve getting around the game's overly simplistic A.I. that you can never directly control; battles are pretty boring after awhile cause this setup works on just about everything. Not to mention the level cap means nothing when that stigma doesn't apply to your equipment and you can often make a hard battle super easy by just actually leveling up some of your gear to compensate. The grade scale is just the game trying to punish you for being pragmatic, so honestly the game is pretty easy if you don't care about S Ranking every battle. The only battles I found hard were usually solved by either leveling up my gear, dealing with the stupid A.I. for the Sentinel and Synergist classes, and funny enough, actually level grinding once you unlock the full Crysterium for a few meager extra stats.

I could honestly build a better version of every class in XIII with XII's mechanics and have more control to boot. Not to mention XII has skills like Darkness and Horology to add variety, and enemies who force you to actually think outside of the box to defeat them like the Esper battles and higher marks. XIII's combat is too streamlined for my taste and sucks the joy out of the combat cause there is no real variety in it. It's only fun for people who probably find combat a chore in the series to begin with and likely never used anything more than Fight and Cure for everything.

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Originally Posted by maybee

I thought that you meant characterization wise though, which is why I was disagreeing so much because one character believes that he's somebody else for a decent chunk of the story, and another character is a talking dog.

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Originally Posted by Jinx

*I mean within the context of battle, not the story. The characters are actually one of the few truly good things the story has going for it. Except Aeris and Cloud.

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;)

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Nah, XIII is the only game in the single player series that you literally can't rely on smashing X to win for 99% of battles, because they cap your level and force you into situations that you have to consider what three jobs are best suited to the situation, and have to alter between those job sets. People who are blind ignorant to this baffle me, and I can only assume it's because they don't like the game so are trying hard to find ways to trash it.

You could argue that you can do a lot more variety in moves by smashing X because the game puts in the generally best patterns, basically a gambit system set up for each job, but in the end you are having to do marginally more than you have to in all the other games unless you're doing a low-level run (and you can do that in FFXIII, too).

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Oh BoB, you and your defense of XIII's combat system.

The issue is that you're stuck with six classes, as opposed to XII where you could build your party around weapon and magic types which gave you over twelve different options with character builds.

Of the six classes, half have great synergy with each other and the other half have great synergy with themselves. Due to bonuses you get for having certain classes together, it's usually better to group these classes in this way to maximize yourself. Tactics basically falls into the player building three variations of the same paradigm sets. You'll have one offensive mage focuses set for breaking the enemy guard, and a physical one for when it breaks. Then you'll have a sentinel with a two medics, a medic and a Synergist, or a sentinel with a medic and Saboteur if your staying offensive focused. Battles devolve quickly into using the first combat set to break the enemy, switch to the second combat mode when they do break, occasionally switch to one of the three defensive sets mentioned above if the enemy happens to actually survive a break and you need to keep the troops alive. Then you rinse and repeat until you win.

With the lack of variation among the cast, the auto-attack option making your own in-battle contribution meaningless outside of paradigm shifting, and the more difficult battles often just involve getting around the game's overly simplistic A.I. that you can never directly control; battles are pretty boring after awhile cause this setup works on just about everything. Not to mention the level cap means nothing when that stigma doesn't apply to your equipment and you can often make a hard battle super easy by just actually leveling up some of your gear to compensate. The grade scale is just the game trying to punish you for being pragmatic, so honestly the game is pretty easy if you don't care about S Ranking every battle. The only battles I found hard were usually solved by either leveling up my gear, dealing with the stupid A.I. for the Sentinel and Synergist classes, and funny enough, actually level grinding once you unlock the full Crysterium for a few meager extra stats.

I could honestly build a better version of every class in XIII with XII's mechanics and have more control to boot. Not to mention XII has skills like Darkness and Horology to add variety, and enemies who force you to actually think outside of the box to defeat them like the Esper battles and higher marks. XIII's combat is too streamlined for my taste and sucks the joy out of the combat cause there is no real variety in it. It's only fun for people who probably find combat a chore in the series to begin with and likely never used anything more than Fight and Cure for everything.

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That's cool and all, but every other game including FFXII I just mash X and win. I don't even think. I just do it. Hell, in FFXII I don't even need to mash X. Yeah, there are different classes, but I don't need them. What I'm getting at is that anyone who criticises FFXIII's battle system as troutty, that's okay, but don't go idolising the other ones like they're that much better. Because they bloody well aren't. FFXII is the one you opted to pick and that's probably the best of the rest. I still love FFVII, FFVIII and FFV more than FFXIII but I'm not idiotic enough to think that they are these deep intricate battles that involve any thinking. In every main FF game apart from FFXIII and FFXV I probably spend more time preparing for battle than I do battling. FFVII? Materia, which you figure out outside of battle. Once you have your materia set though, the vast majority of battles are cake and there's maybe 2-3 battles that actually challenge you to the point of "Well I guess I'll use a summon/magic". Even the elemental battles could be blitzed with attacks without any struggle whatsoever.

Effectively you can argue that FFXIII is dumb, but really it is more involving for the various (not just end) boss battles than any other FF I've ever played. Paradigm shifting is more than I do in any other game. I actually have to do a meager amount of thinking instead of spamming X to win (with perhaps the odd cure if it's a long battle).

EDIT: As for lack of variation amongst the cast, I disagree that this is anything more or less than FFXII. I'm not counting Zodiac Age, as I see it as a spinoff rather than the main game. If you think Hope and Snow are equally good at healing or tanking, I'll stop debating this right now because you're factually wrong. I may as well tell you that Vaan and Fran are equally good as each other with a bow (fact: I don't know if this is true). Most of my characters could heal pretty good in FFXII if I recall correctly, though.

EDITRA: Just on your last point: it's not about it being a chore, it's about it actually being that easy that there is literally no real point other than flashy graphics to pick anything other than fight and cure. There just isn't... at least in my experiences. I'm not the kind of guy to rush through areas though, I love exploring and that inevitably leads me to over-leveling on many occasions. It's like with Tomb Raider, I end up with all the perks roughly half way into the game when many finish the game without getting them completed.

How is an updated rerelease a spin-off?

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

That's cool and all, but every other game including FFXII I just mash X and win. I don't even think. I just do it. Hell, in FFXII I don't even need to mash X. Yeah, there are different classes, but I don't need them. What I'm getting at is that anyone who criticizes FFXIII's battle system as troutty, that's okay, but don't go idolizing the other ones like they're that much better. Because they bloody well aren't. FFXII is the one you opted to pick and that's probably the best of the rest. I still love FFVII, FFVIII and FFV more than FFXIII but I'm not idiotic enough to think that they are these deep intricate battles that involve any thinking. In every main FF game apart from FFXIII and FFXV I probably spend more time preparing for battle than I do battling. FFVII? Materia, which you figure out outside of battle. Once you have your materia set though, the vast majority of battles are cake and there's maybe 2-3 battles that actually challenge you to the point of "Well I guess I'll use a summon/magic". Even the elemental battles could be blitzed with attacks without any struggle whatsoever.

Effectively you can argue that FFXIII is dumb, but really it is more involving for the various (not just end) boss battles than any other FF I've ever played. Paradigm shifting is more than I do in any other game. I actually have to do a meager amount of thinking instead of spamming X to win (with perhaps the odd cure if it's a long battle).

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Every battle system in the series has some issue, some more troublesome than others, but I stand by my opinion that XIII's is one of my least favorite for the simple fact I actually find it boring. I like options in my combat and building teams, and XIII doesn't really give me any of that cause while there are statistical differences within the party, the game is so streamlined to make it meaningless and unlike other titles that pull this stunt like VI, VII, VIII, and XII; I don't have any fun customization systems to fall back on to give me something to do.

My other issue is that the combat falls into a real simple pattern fairly quickly, which is the problem I have with FFX's combat. I eventually get stuck repeating the same overall strategy to win the game. Now granted, most including yourself would argue that this can be a good thing cause battles in earlier entries are so simple and basic to be forgettable and not worthwhile so having a goal that forces you to pay attention can be seen as a good thing, but I honestly find it annoying. Basically, old Random Encounters were like walking down a hall and being forced to open twenty doors before you get to where you need to do; but some of the asinine forced tactics like the matchmaking enemy weakness gimmick in FFX or the Guard breaking nonsense in XIII is like reaching that door and having to solve a simple arithmetic problem before the door will open. Pretty novel when you first start, but by door fifteen, I often wish we could go back to combat being mindless cause forcing me to pay attention to a meaningless battle that isn't challenging is more excruciating than mindless button mashing. If you want someone who does this idea right, look at the series XIII was shamelessly trying to ape in the Persona 3/4 entries.

Going back to the door analogy, in older games, I have options so I can personalize and flavor the experience. Maybe I don't calmly open this door, maybe I do a flying kick to get it open. Excessive, and probably not worth it if we're going by efficiency, but still fun to do. Maybe I try to challenge myself to only open the door only enough to squeeze through. I can find my own ways to make a boring task fun. XIII doesn't really let me do this too much. The door auto-slides open as soon as I solve 2+2=4 every time, and while I can try to self challenge myself, the combat is so stringent on doing it how it tells you to, that trying to win without one of your tools is effectively just trying to solve this problem with subtraction instead, and hoping the terminal will short-circuit eventually and just let you get a pass. It's not fun, there is no meat to the experience, just the boring gruel. There are reasons why the addition of monster catching and more interactive elements incorporated into it makes many XIII fans cite the sequel as being a better combat system cause it actually tries to add back in all the fluff that RPG combat needs to be fun.

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EDIT: As for lack of variation amongst the cast, I disagree that this is anything more or less than FFXII. I'm not counting Zodiac Age, as I see it as a spinoff rather than the main game. If you think Hope and Snow are equally good at healing or tanking, I'll stop debating this right now because you're factually wrong. I may as well tell you that Vaan and Fran are equally good as each other with a bow (fact: I don't know if this is true). Most of my characters could heal pretty good in FFXII if I recall correctly, though.

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Well considering the Zodiac Jobs were meant to be part of the game originally, I'm not sure I can agree about TZA. There is statistical differences, and technically Hope can be an effective Sentinel, not as good as Snow of course but you can make him one despite how foolish it would be since Hope has far greater strengths elsewhere. On the other hand though, second best in a role is usually not that much of a difference than the actual best. Other issues stem from Ravagers being more of a means to an end. Snow and Sahz may not be the best Ravagers in the game, but they're competent at it, and the only reason to use Hope or Lightning over them is to shave off time for the arbitrary e-penis enlargement that is the battle grading scale, despite the fact that I feel the pity items are often better than the actual good item drops. You can actually use every character effectively in any role, though some are obviously built better for one than another. Course this brings us to a point where the game once again removes player agency from the picture. The game sets up from the early chapters what everyone's best role is in combat and effectively conditions you into this mindset as it prevents your from having too many options to think differently. By the time you finally unlock all of the other Roles for a character, not only are their "best" roles better established for you, but the game actively discourages you from trying to level up the other three roles for a character by making the rewards meager and the XP costs a complete chore to obtain, effectively shoe-horning you into the way it wants you to play the game. That's not really fun man.

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EDITRA: Just on your last point: it's not about it being a chore, it's about it actually being that easy that there is literally no real point other than flashy graphics to pick anything other than fight and cure. There just isn't... at least in my experiences. I'm not the kind of guy to rush through areas though, I love exploring and that inevitably leads me to over-leveling on many occasions. It's like with Tomb Raider, I end up with all the perks roughly half way into the game when many finish the game without getting them completed.

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I generally don't like plugging my own threads, but I would argue that my FFV Let's Play shows just how deep the rabbit hole goes for effectively using classes and abilities. Yeah, I could take out the Garula boss by just mashing X, but it's honestly more fun turning him into a Toad with a Blue Mage spell and watching him waste his turns going back to normal just so I can do it to him again. I could take down Ifirit in FFVIII by just spamming Shiva and Limit Breaks, but it's more rewarding to level up m,y GF abilities to Junction 100 Blizzara spells to Squall's weapon and watch him one shot the dude. I could Ultima spam every boss in VI, or I can play with relics to pull off game breaking normal attacks or use the more interactive special skills of the party. I could level grind my party to godhood in FFII, or I could hilariously just get Toad spell to Lv. 16 and watch as the creator's failure to give any enemy the immunity allows me to win the game by turning everything I encounter into frogs. That's what makes the older combat system more fun, exploring the possibilities and playing with party configurations. Yes, I could easily win by mashing X, but some fights have even more interesting solutions and options for them and large part of the fun of the older games is learning what works and what doesn't. Again, back to the door analogy, I like having the option to just kick the damn door down instead of having to rinse and repeat the same method which is what XIII's combat pretty much does.

I prefer exploring and dicking around as well, but while I'm doing that, I'm also playing around with the combat system to give me some variety as well.

Well, if you're looking to beat things through unusual methods, you can opt to not use the auto button on the battles in FFXIII and just do it manually. Nobody is stopping you. The entire series can always be won through ineffcient ways if you're just looking to do it some way different, and XIII is no different in that manner.

But for me, that's just something I'm really not that interested in, as it's mostly just a different graphic I get to see and otherwise slowing down the battle for no real fun factor (again, this is for me - the fun factor for me is in the accomplishment of winning a fight, not in doing silly things because the fight is incredibly basic in the first place). I think we just have completely different interests in the battle content for this and I can understand why random peculiar things might interest you in that regard, but for me I want the initial game to be interesting without me having to force it down that road by having to be creative. I mean I may as well sit down and create my own game (also something that I simply don't have the patience for).

Regarding the Zodiac: I can only say I bought and played FFXII and everyone was pretty much the same. Yes, Zodiac is different, but I don't buy games just for a new battle system. I bought FFXII as it was, and played it as it was, and for me the Zodiac system is just not something I can justify spending my money on. I don't count it as the original game, though, because it's not the original game...

It’s not a changed battle system, it’s a set of overall tweaks plus a modified character progression system. You know, like the expert sphere grid from FFX. So by that logic, FFX PAL/HD is a spin-off and not a main game. He’ll, by that logic, every retelease is a spinoff. FFs 1 through 3 had substantial gameplay tweaks and difficulty reductions, with III having named characters instead of nameless. Spinoff!

Your logic is very flawed, is what I’m saying

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Well, if you're looking to beat things through unusual methods, you can opt to not use the auto button on the battles in FFXIII and just do it manually. Nobody is stopping you. The entire series can always be won through ineffcient ways if you're just looking to do it some way different, and XIII is no different in that manner.

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I have, and it's boring. Non-mage classes have few options, due to ravager functioning differently than a traditional black mage in purpose, they're pretty underwhelming to use, and I've frankly never cared for buff/debuff classes. I honestly feel just auto-battling is less taxing on my patience, because at least I can pretend the roles have more to offer me than they really do. It's ultimately the issue I have with the combat, the classes are so streamlined to be boring to use and battles need to go by so fast it's often just easier to let the computer do all the work for you. I don't even get the satisfaction of customization either cause everything is so simplified to make any effort feel pointless.

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But for me, that's just something I'm really not that interested in, as it's mostly just a different graphic I get to see and otherwise slowing down the battle for no real fun factor (again, this is for me - the fun factor for me is in the accomplishment of winning a fight, not in doing silly things because the fight is incredibly basic in the first place). I think we just have completely different interests in the battle content for this and I can understand why random peculiar things might interest you in that regard, but for me I want the initial game to be interesting without me having to force it down that road by having to be creative. I mean I may as well sit down and create my own game (also something that I simply don't have the patience for).

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See for me, a victory from a boring battle doesn't interest me. I prefer having options cause winning with the same strategy is just uninteresting, especially in something like an RPG where you're expected to be playing for 30 to 70 hours. Even fun battle systems can't survive that long of a playtime without getting a bit repetitive. I enjoy having classes like Thief and Blue Mage to change the battle by giving me sub-objectives like stealing a certain piece of loot or obtaining a certain spell. Those change ups in the dynamics of battle add a lot of interesting elements to keep battles fresh, even if I could just mash X to win. I enjoy playing with characters and classes and trying to learn how to min/max them but I'll get really bored if it's way too straightforward like the Crystarium is. When victory is the only objective and the game expects you to use the same tactics for every fight, it just makes combat boring to me, and because of the dumb paradigm system, XIII forces me to pay attention to the monotonous battles which just dragged the whole experience down for me cause at least combat in a vanilla RPG like FFI and Lunar gives me the ability to just zone out or multi-task instead of having to sit their and watch my party health bar/Enemy break gauge until something happens. XIII's battle system just takes the worst aspects of RPG combat and forces you to confront and deal with it with little to no reprieve or excitement.

I prefer gameplay to give me something more to do than just win, so we'll likely have to agree to disagree.

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Regarding the Zodiac: I can only say I bought and played FFXII and everyone was pretty much the same. Yes, Zodiac is different, but I don't buy games just for a new battle system. I bought FFXII as it was, and played it as it was, and for me the Zodiac system is just not something I can justify spending my money on. I don't count it as the original game, though, because it's not the original game...

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Does this mean you bought FFX HD so you could play the original FFX cause the Master Sphere Grid wasn't in the "original" game? I jest, but honestly, I feel the Zodiac Jobs really change-up the overall experience of FFXII in some interesting ways to make the game feel fresh. Honestly, I wish more "director's cut" style games did such good jobs on changing up the gameplay experience like TZA does.

I like gameplay being about more than just winning as well, but I don't feel I have to create a sense of challenge instead of being given one, and I just can't enjoy what you enjoy as there is no real benefit that I can find in it, as I don't find it fun, which means it's poor gameplay. I agree we'll have to disagree. I will say I enjoy things like stealing with a thief because there are tangible benefits, but doing things like particular spells just to watch them be in mini/toad etc. for a while when I could have saved the MP by just hitting him to death in a few moments... for me this just doesn't compute.

It was pointed out beforehand that there is the S-Ranking thing, which I really enjoyed getting for all those monster fights on Gran Pulse. So I guess personally I found that really enjoyable as a challenge outside of the regular mash X to win stuff, finding a way to take down those guys at brutal efficiency took a bit of figuring out in many cases, often having to use methods/paradigms that weren't previously used. So I guess that's about as close as I get to what you enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Fynn

It’s not a changed battle system, it’s a set of overall tweaks plus a modified character progression system. You know, like the expert sphere grid from FFX. So by that logic, FFX PAL/HD is a spin-off and not a main game. He’ll, by that logic, every retelease is a spinoff. FFs 1 through 3 had substantial gameplay tweaks and difficulty reductions, with III having named characters instead of nameless. Spinoff!

Your logic is very flawed, is what I’m saying

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Sorry, Zodiac is a new job system, I guess, more than battle system. Wrong word chosen. But for me I can only go by the game I actually played, and Zodiac wasn't a thing I could play and I don't enjoy the plot of FFXII enough to justify spending money on doing the entire thing again with a new job system. The job and battle systems aren't the most important thing to me in a game - the world, the characters and the story are. I can't comment on the job system of games I haven't played. The FFXII I played was nothing special for jobs. 'sall I can say on that, I'm sure you can understand not wanting to pay money for the same game just tweaked if it's not one of your favourites of the series.

If it were free or included in the original game I might've given it a go.

Sure. But that doesn’t make it a spin-off by any stretch of the word.

Well, I'm not sure what it makes it, but it's not the original game and for me is different enough to not be classified as something that is described as simply FFXII.

Enhanced port, maybe? That's what I generally consider the FF1 and 2 remakes, as they are in essence the same games with updated mechanics.

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Do you see what you did, Nethuzad? Now they're bickering over XII and XIII!

I think the answer to this is that FF fans like and hate different things, ha. With a series that prizes itself on differences in entries, this is natural.

Yeah, many of the entries are so different tonally and from a gameplay perspective, that they don't even feel like part of the same series. People compare them BECAUSE they all share the same title, but really, sometimes it's like comparing apples and dogs. I mean, you can, but what's the smurfing point? One's an apple and one's a dog.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I like gameplay being about more than just winning as well, but I don't feel I have to create a sense of challenge instead of being given one, and I just can't enjoy what you enjoy as there is no real benefit that I can find in it, as I don't find it fun, which means it's poor gameplay. I agree we'll have to disagree. I will say I enjoy things like stealing with a thief because there are tangible benefits, but doing things like particular spells just to watch them be in mini/toad etc. for a while when I could have saved the MP by just hitting him to death in a few moments... for me this just doesn't compute.

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Honestly, the enemy doesn't really last long once the Toad thing happens as the status drastically reduces their stats and you can also silence them to prevent them from changing back, so it's not just me picking on the boss though that option is also valid. So I wouldn't call it a waste of MP, especially since you're more likely to be wasting MP healing in this case. My point is really the fact that several bosses in the series have multiple strategies that can be utilized to beat them instead of just hitting them with a brick until they die, and frankly many of these strategies are generally more satisfying to me to pull off since any scrub can use a blunt instrument to get their way.

This is why I like Blue Magic cause it will honestly give you a huge advantage as several spells can easily cripple bosses and tough enemies, but acquiring them is a challenge in themselves. This ultimately adds more value to combat as I now find myself in situations to prolong battles to acquire them, or perhaps do something that seems a bit counter-intuitive to get them. They add a puzzle aspect to battles which adds variety for me in the long run.

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It was pointed out beforehand that there is the S-Ranking thing, which I really enjoyed getting for all those monster fights on Gran Pulse. So I guess personally I found that really enjoyable as a challenge outside of the regular mash X to win stuff, finding a way to take down those guys at brutal efficiency took a bit of figuring out in many cases, often having to use methods/paradigms that weren't previously used. So I guess that's about as close as I get to what you enjoy.

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I honestly don't care for it, largely because the only thing that matters is speed which is the greatest flaw in most games with grading scales cause that's the one element that tends to make up 60-90% of the score. Where this goes wrong is that it means you can play recklessly and simply trade blows if it means you can win the fight in less time, which to me shouldn't qualify as an S-Rank score. Hell, half the time in XIII I found the difference in getting an A versus S score was simply just not bothering to switch to a defensive paradigm except maybe a brief second to heal. I don't really find this rewarding. I honestly prefer how Record Keeper does this kind of stuff where minimizing damage and accomplishing strategic objectives like hitting the enemy with a specific weakness or status effect.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Well, I'm not sure what it makes it, but it's not the original game and for me is different enough to not be classified as something that is described as simply FFXII.

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Director's Cut or Criterion Edition comes to mind, especially since the game basically plays like how it was originally envisioned to be in the early stages. Hell, Ito didn't even want to give the game the International title when they originally released it because that usually meant only a few elements changed, whereas XII Zodiac Job edition received quite the overhaul mechanically to basically play like a different game, so he wanted a new subtitle to reflect that. The closest comparison to the game within the series would FFIV DS, which was also radically overhauled to feel like a different experience from the original.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

Final Fantasy games mean a lot to its fans and they put a little bit of their identity in their favourite game. When you undermine a title in the series, you are also undermining its fans sense of self-worth.

Final Fantasy VII is the most popular and acclaimed title, and fans of Final Fantasy IX feel rejection and a lack of validation in the shadow of FFVII. The FFIX fans thus lash out at it, incorrectly perceiving it as the source of all of their woes rather than taking a look in the mirror and noticing perhaps there's other reasons for their beloved's lack of fanfare. FFVII is, to them, the proverbial popular kid who gets all the cute boys/girl it wants while they're sitting at home with no prom invite.

Final Fantasy VII fans are fully aware of their game's generally perceived superiority and when this is challenged they feel fear at losing their place at the top of the pyramid. They quickly belittle other titles to try to neutralise the threat to their place in the social hierarchy and so their own ego. If I am not #1, then who am I? The braggadocio is to mask their own insecurities.

By the way, I am talking absolute nonsense that I just made up. Hope you enjoyed another post by Psychotic.

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Very well put Psy. I would say thats why I dislike it when people bash VII.