I never understood this, their recent FF games have all been well received by gaming critics, yet I keep hear things like, “FFX was the last good FF” and “Squaresoft died after becoming Square Enix” why all the hate?
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I never understood this, their recent FF games have all been well received by gaming critics, yet I keep hear things like, “FFX was the last good FF” and “Squaresoft died after becoming Square Enix” why all the hate?
because final fantasy is a troutty series?
Gaming critics tend to give inflated scores to popular series anyway. Look at Zelda games. Those scores are laughable for the most part. Also, FFXIII and FFXV have pretty low metacritic scores compared to others in the series, so I'm not sure your premise is accurate.
I'm slightly confused by your question. Your title seems to imply that people are critical about Square Enix as a whole, but your post suggests a focus on criticism of post-Squaresoft Final Fantasy titles. So I'll address the second part.
I think there are several reasons why a lot of people have become critical of the Final Fantasy series under Square Enix. One of the main ones is that that it takes Square Enix too long to develop Final Fantasy titles, which I think is probably one of the worst complaints I see about the series. It makes me wonder if the person asking this question is stuck living in 1999 when game development was much simpler and less expensive than it is today. Modern AAA titles take far more resources and development time to create compared to when they did in the Squaresoft days. I wish we could go back to the old days of 1997-2002 when we had five mainline Final Fantasy titles release consecutively, but unfortunately it just isn't possible anymore. In saying that, I don't think it's fair to criticize Square Enix for this. Time goes on, game development becomes more complex, and video games get harder and more expensive to produce. Those are just the realities of the business.
When other AAA games get sequels within a few years, I think a 10 year development cycle on a Square game that still releases arguably unfinished is worthy of criticism.
Oh, we're counting sequels then? Cool, this changes things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Golbez
2009-2010: Final Fantasy XIII
2010: Final Fantasy XIV (original release)
2011-2012: Final Fantasy XIII-2
2013: Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn (complete relaunch of the original FF14)
2013-2014: Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII
2015: Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward (expansion)
2016: Final Fantasy XV
2017: Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood
2019: Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers
Essentially, over the past decade we've had 10 new entries in the Final Fantasy series.
If you want to exclude Final Fantasy XIV altogether, that still leaves you with four Final Fantasy titles within a span of 6 years. I'm also excluding all of the story content that has been released for Final Fantasy XV over the years.
Considering game development can take 3-5 years or even longer, that's pretty damn good.
But setting this aside, your premise doesn't really apply to Final Fantasy. This isn't a series based on games getting sequels; each new installment might as well be a reboot because nothing about the previous installment is retained in the next title. So you can't exactly suggest "well other game developers release sequels in just 2-3 years, so Square Enix should too!" because Final Fantasy isn't a series where one story is continued across multiple mainline games. And when that does happen in the Final Fantasy series, when they do make sequels to mainline installments, guess what? It only takes them 2 years. Just as good as -- if not better than -- any other game developer.
So yeah. It's illogical to criticize Square Enix for this.
I want to exclude all of them because nothing you listed there matters. The fact is that FFXV was announced as versus XIII 10 years before it was released. No amount of sequels and spinoffs released in the interim is going to erase that.
And speaking of premises, your notion that the time between releases is one of the biggest complaints for recent FF games is pretty hard for me to swallow. The only reason that time between releases becomes a cause of complaint in when the quality of the final product is disappointing after the wait. Persona 5 was released 8 1/2 years after Persona 4. I didn't complain, because it didn't disappoint.
This is a fairly dishonest response. When your point is refuted, suddenly those games don't matter? The only thing you've implied that matters to you is "AAA titles" and "sequels." I've listed both, and you dismiss them entirely because "they don't matter." Why don't they matter, exactly? Because they disprove your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Golbez
Realistically, Final Fantasy XV actually began development around 2012-2013 when Tabata took over Nomura's role as director of the project. So the title took about 4 years of development time. Pretty reasonable, if you ask me.Quote:
The fact is that FFXV was announced as versus XIII 10 years before it was released. No amount of sequels and spinoffs released in the interim is going to erase that.
I'm not even sure what you're complaining about here. That the original Versus XIII got scrapped? Okay, but that happens all the time in game development. That it took too long to develop? Okay, but it did eventually get released and we're nearly 2.5 years removed from its launch now. Or are you complaining that it took too long in between the other mainline games? Okay, well it actually came out 3 years after the relaunch of FFXIV, which itself came out 3 years after FFXIII. So each mainline title has actually had a pretty reasonable development time.
So if the argument is about the quality of the title rather than the amount of time it takes for them to come out, then the development time is irrelevant right? Would you complain if Square Enix took 9 years to develop Final Fantasy XVI and it ended up being one of the greatest games of all time? I would wager the answer is no.Quote:
And speaking of premises, your notion that the time between releases is one of the biggest complaints for recent FF games is pretty hard for me to swallow. The only reason that time between releases becomes a cause of complaint in when the quality of the final product is disappointing after the wait. Persona 5 was released 8 1/2 years after Persona 4. I didn't complain, because it didn't disappoint.
Don't willfully misinterpret my response and then accuse me of being dishonest because I don't accept your reinterpretation. I was clearly talking about the development cycle of a game from the start. It's hard to misread "10 years," which was in my initial post. Also, FFXV clearly used assets from the original Versus XIII conception. I have no idea how much they had to remake, but saying it started development after it became FFXV seems off to me.
That's true. I wouldn't complain at all. But when it takes almost a decade for a new one to be made, they only have so many chances up at bat in my lifetime, so I certainly don't want them to be taking as long if they keep whiffing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scruffington
Sorry, but it seemed like you were unfairly dismissing multiple Final Fantasy titles. I also didn't understand what you meant by "none of that matters." I see now that you're strictly zeroed in on FFXV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Golbez
There are multiple sources that discuss this, but essentially the project was only about 20-25% complete when Tabata took over. We can see that the original Versus XIII elements were completely reworked with many parts being outright scrapped (such as Stella Nox Fleuret).Quote:
Also, FFXV clearly used assets from the original Versus XIII conception. I have no idea how much they had to remake, but saying it started development after it became FFXV seems off to me.
This isn't a case unique to Square Enix, though. The Last Guardian is another prominent title that was infamously stuck in development hell, having been actively worked on since 2007 and releasing 9 years later in 2016. Metal Gear Solid 5 is another famous example; I haven't been able to find out exactly when development of that title started, but the prolonged development cycle of MGS5 was one of the major reasons for Hideo Kojima and Konami's relationship fracturing.
The point is that sometimes game developers can be a bit too ambitious, which was likely the case with Nomura's original vision for Versus XIII. There's an entire business side to game development, and Square Enix games require far bigger budgets than any other JRPG on the market. I don't really fault Square Enix for kicking Nomura off of the project, and I think Tabata ultimately managed to produce a pretty decent title considering what he had to work with.
This leads into my points from above. I think FFXV's troubled development can be forgiven because it had a really complicated situation, and it wasn't originally intended to be a mainline game in the first place.Quote:
That's true. I wouldn't complain at all. But when it takes almost a decade for a new one to be made, they only have so many chances up at bat in my lifetime, so I certainly don't want them to be taking as long if they keep whiffing.
Sure, the Final Fantasy titles of this decade haven't quite reached the level of critical acclaim as the older Final Fantasies. But that's probably more of a testament to Squaresoft's impressive legacy than a slight against Square Enix. I also think it was much easier to create a good JRPG back in the late 90s - early 2000s compared to today.
Well if it was that much easier in the 90s and early 2000s, maybe they should go back to making them 90s style. I know it won't happen, but that would really be my preference over excessively long development times. If FFXV was a fluke, thatbwould be great. However, I'm not encouraged by the lack of so much as an acknowledgement that FFXVI is being developed over 2 years after the release of FFXV. Hopefully, Square has just learned to be more cautious about revealing games too early.
It depends on who you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by 8ther
Some people think that the "magic" died with IX
Some X
Some XII, and that XIII waltzed in and destroyed everything
Some believe that XV was the final blow
I believe that even some people think that the magic died with VI and VII was the one that murdered the series.
I really think it's a generational thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
Square Enix did release a 90s-style JRPG recently. It's called Octopath Traveler, and it reviewed + sold pretty well apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Golbez
The issue Square Enix has now is that they're the de facto big budget Japanese RPG experience on the market. There's no one else in the entire JRPG industry that has produced better visuals or a higher level of graphical performance than they have with Final Fantasy. So the challenge for them is to maintain this reputation -- which is becoming increasingly difficult due to the rising costs and prolonged cycles of game development -- while also still reinventing the series with each new mainline installment.
Part of me wonders if Final Fantasy should become more like The Legend of Zelda. We've seen Nintendo experiment with different art styles for pretty much every game, none of which are graphically demanding. And with each new entry in the series we see a reinvention of gameplay mechanics while core elements of the series are still retained to some degree. Maybe if Final Fantasy XVI is a massive shakeup of the series in the same way Breath of the Wild was, Square Enix can recapture some of that magic from earlier days.
I was hoping more late 90s, but fair point. I haven't actually played it so can't tell how well it measures up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scruffington
Why are people saying this? You guys alright?Quote:
Originally Posted by FynnQuote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
^Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
I'll start likin' 'em when they start making mainline FF games again that don't suck. For the record I don't think EVERYTHING Square Enix has done is bad. Just that far too much of it is.
Cos we are all cynical adults
Just me? trout, i forgot im an adult now.
They used to make games I enjoy playing. The last several games I did not enjoy playing. Saying they don't make good games anymore is as simple as that.
It's not illogical to criticize them for failing to make new main entries in under 10 years when it takes them 10 years to make a mainline entry. That totally different teams produced some slapdash sequels in shorter amounts of time is irrelevant to that. It's also not relevant when you hate the game the sequels are based on leaving you completely disinterested in said sequels.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScruffingtonOh, we're counting sequels then? Cool, this changes things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Golbez
2009-2010: Final Fantasy XIII
2010: Final Fantasy XIV (original release)
2011-2012: Final Fantasy XIII-2
2013: Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn (complete relaunch of the original FF14)
2013-2014: Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII
2015: Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward (expansion)
2016: Final Fantasy XV
2017: Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood
2019: Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers
Essentially, over the past decade we've had 10 new entries in the Final Fantasy series.
If you want to exclude Final Fantasy XIV altogether, that still leaves you with four Final Fantasy titles within a span of 6 years. I'm also excluding all of the story content that has been released for Final Fantasy XV over the years.
Considering game development can take 3-5 years or even longer, that's pretty damn good.
But setting this aside, your premise doesn't really apply to Final Fantasy. This isn't a series based on games getting sequels; each new installment might as well be a reboot because nothing about the previous installment is retained in the next title. So you can't exactly suggest "well other game developers release sequels in just 2-3 years, so Square Enix should too!" because Final Fantasy isn't a series where one story is continued across multiple mainline games. And when that does happen in the Final Fantasy series, when they do make sequels to mainline installments, guess what? It only takes them 2 years. Just as good as -- if not better than -- any other game developer.
So yeah. It's illogical to criticize Square Enix for this.
And it's worth keeping in mind that almost no developer takes 10 years to make a game even now. That's 100% pure bred Squenix right there.
bUt thEY mAdE cRisIS cORE whIcH iS a MaSterPieCe !!!!
I was really trying my best to avoid this thread but boredom got the better of me it seems.
In terms of development turnaround, SE itself has admitted that all of their mainline games from XII-XV have suffered from behind the scenes issues and that's why the games seem to take so long to produce. The Ultimania and certain interviews pretty much point to the fact that in addition to the demands that new technology has brought to development, that SE has internal issues as well that seem to be linked to the fact that they are still trying to make these games like they did twenty years ago when they had a tenth of the staff and easier hardware to work with.
XII was delayed because of the programming issues of trying to build an MMO scaled world on the PS2 without the use of the HUD peripheral that XI used, as well as the very well known resignation of it's director halfway through the game's development which left the remaining team needing to finish the plot and direction of the title.
XIII suffered from being pushed back to a next gen console which made what little early development on it obsolete. Was built simultaneously with the finnicky Crystal Tools engine which kept delaying the game's development and ended up being so tailored made for XIII that it was deemed unusable for the vXIII developers. The game also suffered from mismanagement, most notable being the fact the game didn't even have a real core gameplay concept until the demo was made a year before the game's release. There is also the apocryphal story of an artist spending months making a rock fixture that is only on the screen for five seconds in a cutscene showing that priorities on the project were pretty skewed.
XIV suffered from such misguided management that it's original director had to resign to save face, the game had to go under a two year retool to get back into the black, and this retool ultimately delayed every AAA project in the companies pipeline and was likely the direct cause for why vXIII ended being rebranded. Yoshi-P again mentions that resources were being used poorly as developers over-emphasized graphical quality which ended up creating several of the game's server issues, as well as the director ignoring many of the quality of life enhancements that the MMO genre had experienced over the decade since WoW hit the scene. This game's original performance issues hit the company so hard, they're still paying for it.
XV doesn't really need an introduction on it's development problems, but much like the last two games, one thing gleamed from the interviews with the director is the recurring story of SE having a poor management style which causes a lot of the development problems. Director Tabata spends just as much time discussing the issues with trying to fix the development side of things as he was just redesigning the ten year old relic. He discusses issues of entitlement and poor accountability among his department heads as well as an overall issue of management not keeping everyone on the same page which has been a recurring issue echoed in the Ultimania interviews for XIII and XIV.
As for the issues of Square-Enix as a whole, I feel my personal issues stem from just the simple fact that all of the designers I loved from the 90s era have all left the company for the most part by 2005. This combined with SE's desire to really stick to just the safe bet entries for over a decade by simply making sequels, trying to turn numbered FFs into mini-franchises, and often being too afraid to make anything non-mobile that doesn't have the FF moniker on it because they're too afraid of taking any kind of loss has largely disillusioned me from the company. When you think back to what Square was producing in the 90s, it's hard to think of a really bad entry of their high profile titles and the company had several non-FF themed franchises going for it as well. Sure they had some low profile duds of course, but I don't think we can even argue the fact that most of SE's best known IPs and beloved games stem from this era almost exclusively. On the other hand, it's really difficult to name maybe ten really fantastic first party games made by SE since 2000 that most fans would be like "oh yeah, that's a great game!". That's not to say SE doesn't make good games, but I also feel it's obvious that both the fans and even some of the developers would rather dwell on past glories than anything new. The fact that most fans were more interested in a remake of a 20 year old game over the announcement of a new installment says many things about where fans feel the franchise is.
Overall, I feel the biggest difference between SE now and Square from the old days is both the fact that the company is more profit driven, which itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but more importantly, it just doesn't feel like it has people working there who just want to make cool games, instead, everything feels like it's kind of got through this marketing filter to be acceptable for release. Square led the industry, but SE just feels like another rank and file member of it.
Definitely agree about change in designers though not completely on "left." I do think Sakaguchi's departure, for example, was a significant blow. However, I think Kitase stepping back from the position of director was probably an equally significant if not greater issue. I was greatly disappointed to hear Nomura would be helming the FFVII remake instead of Kitase. The series took a nosedive IMO when Kitase moved on to producer roles.
1. It hasn't taken them 10 years to make a new mainline entry in the post-Final Fantasy X era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slothy
-> FF12 started development in late 2000, and released in 2006-2007. That's about 5-5.5 years of development time.
-> FF13 started development in early 2004, and released around 2009-2010. That's about 5-5.5 years of development time, give or take.
-> FF14 (the original release) started development in 2005, and released in 2010. That's about 4-5 years of development time.
-> FF14: A Realm Reborn started development in 2011, and it released in 2013. That's about 2 years of development time, which is an impressive turnaround.
-> FF Versus XIII began development in 2006, but that game never saw the light of day. Instead, we got:
-> FF15, which technically began development around 2012-2013 when Tabata took over the project. It released in 2016, so it took about 4 years of development time from when Tabata took over.
2. The original comment I was replying to was talking about AAA games getting sequels within a few years.
-> Pointing out that Square Enix has produced multiple sequels to their AAA Final Fantasy titles is very relevant to the original comment I was responding to.
-> Referring to them as "slapdash" sequels is both dismissive and false, considering sequels such as Final Fantasy XIII-2 introduce a breadth of entirely new content and mechanics.
3. You being disinterested in the original game and the sequels doesn't in any way dismiss my points.
-> You're well within your rights to dislike Square Enix Final Fantasy titles, but they have definitely demonstrated that they can produce both mainline titles and sequels to said mainline titles within a reasonable timeframe.
4. You're right. And Square Enix is one of those developers that does not take 10 years to make a new game.
I think judging FFXV as developed from 2006-2016 is perfectly fair. Regardless of whether they had to start from scratch in 2012 and other structural changes, those issues are all on Square and it's fair to hold them accountable rather than saying they get to reset the clock on themselves by changing the project title and direction. Also, they definitely didn't start 100% from scratch. I remember seeing the characters of FFXV in the videos for FF Versus XIII. Even if they had to rebuild character models, they clearly didn't scrap the whole conception of what they had previously.
Calling FFXIV a mainline FF game is honestly a tad laughable. It's a spinoff in a different genre that they slapped a number on to draw people in. It'd be like expecting a new Half-Life game and getting Fortnite. And trying to pretend that FFXV wasn't in development for more than ten years because it got a name change and some team shakeups part way through is a tad disingenuous.
Also, the FFXIII sequels were slapdash sequels to a slapdash game. FFXIII didn't even have a clear direction until about 18-24 months before release, it was remarkably half-assed and poorly made, and instead of developing newer better games they released a couple of quick sequels to take advantage of the fact that at least they'd already built an engine, didn't have to think too hard about writing the world since the foundation was already set, and they could cannibalize as many assets as they wanted to make life easier. So yeah, sequels slapped together in short order to make more money on a game that was slapped together in under two years because as usual Squenix sat on their asses with no direction and accomplishing nothing for years before they realized people expected them to actually make a game out of it. I'm also not particularly impressed that they can have all of these separate teams working on all of these separate games and it still takes them at least twice as long to make a game as anyone else can get it done.
Except it is a mainline Final Fantasy game. Just because you don't like MMOs doesn't invalidate it as a Final Fantasy game. There are plenty of people -- even here on EoFF -- who could tell you that it is 100% deserving of the Final Fantasy name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slothy
False equivalency. FF14 is still very much an RPG at its core like every other Final Fantasy game, it has a multitude of elements from the Final Fantasy series in it, and it still emphasizes its story as the focal point of the game. It's a Final Fantasy game in every respect.Quote:
It'd be like expecting a new Half-Life game and getting Fortnite.
Not really. Versus XIII was in development hell for years. It didn't become the next mainline game until 2012-2013, when the entire development focus shifted and they brought Tabata in to complete the game.Quote:
And trying to pretend that FFXV wasn't in development for more than ten years because it got a name change and some team shakeups part way through is a tad disingenuous.
Even if it did take the actual 10 years to make FFXV as you're suggesting: So what? I don't see much value in getting this worked up over it. The game has been out for nearly 3 years at this point. Even I was disappointed with it, but it's a still a decent game and it was well received.
They really weren't, but okay.Quote:
Also, the FFXIII sequels were slapdash sequels to a slapdash game.
It really wasn't, but okay.Quote:
FFXIII didn't even have a clear direction until about 18-24 months before release, it was remarkably half-assed and poorly made
Except most people who disliked the original XIII considered XIII-2 a massive improvement over the original because it alleviated their concerns about linearity, but sure. FF13 bad and Square Enix bad, I guess.Quote:
and instead of developing newer better games they released a couple of quick sequels to take advantage of the fact that at least they'd already built an engine, didn't have to think too hard about writing the world since the foundation was already set, and they could cannibalize as many assets as they wanted to make life easier.
I've long admired the next-gen approach to video games, with life-like character and world depictions and smooth graphics and I still look forward to playing FF7RE, however, when considering the cost of time and money which I had obviously never truly gave thought to as a teenager, as I am older now and frustrated by these troubles, I have begun to back more fondly on the simpler depictions. I think what modding community did with FF7, clunky and obfuscating system was epic and Square Enix released more titles to PC, we probably would see a lot more of this.
I used to dream of creating my own videogame with lifelike depictions of characters but lately, I've come to accept that they could look just as appealing in super-deformed sprite mode, with some original character art in the menus or during dialogue, and hell maybe a couple of fully rendered movies just for the oomph. Though I still believe the battle animations should look like 10% more dynamic that what you'd see while traversing the map. I'm just gonna ride off into the sunset now before this rant goes into questionable territory...
One more thing in regard to XI and XIV. If Square Enix were to release non-MMO spinoffs of those titles, I would buy that schet up so fast. I don't care if it made only the vaguest of references to the original storyline or if ended up feeling like I was playing .hack//GU Resurrection again (a weird experience after four years since playing the original trilogy). I suppose you could say I'm not one for community so I dislike MMORPGs, but I love Final Fantasy and I just tend to feel it is unfair that I'm made to choose to forego a main title or be saddled with an experience I really don't enjoy. There's that.
There are legitimate criticisms to be had about the recent Final Fantasy games and about Square Enix as a whole, but I think much of the unbridled seething hate you hear hurled toward them these days is the simple fact that they're one of the big guys now. They're reviled for most of the same reasons Electronic Arts, Ubisoft, Activision, etc. are. They're huge and wield way too much publishing power over way too many beloved/once beloved franchises and the way they've been handling them in recent years (particularly in regard to their love for mobile and microtransations) is questionable.