I'm worried (Spoilers)

As I've put 'spoilers' in the title, hopefully it's ok for me not to use spoiler tags?

Anyway, as the title suggests, I'm worried.

Worried about what? The future of this remake.

The ending, with all the changing fate stuff, makes me really worried that they won't follow the game's original story. Do you think they will follow it, or do you think they won't?

I was so hyped to see the events of Corel Prison, Cosmo Canyon caves, Temple of the Ancients, well you get the picture.

Now I am worried that they are just throwing everything out the window.

It really frustrates me. People wanted a remake. But they have to go and complicate things don't they?

Honestly, they could just remake the story in a faithful way, while adding new stuff IN ADDITION to all this. Just like part 1 did, and part 1 was doing absolutely fine until the ending got me worried.

There is absolutely no point to having Zack back. They don't need to complicate this. But now I'm worried that they've screwed the whole thing up, and we'll never get to see the original events of FFVII remade.

Am I worrying for nothing? Or do you think they will indeed axe a load of stuff?

Don't think you are the only one that's worried here. Some fans are okay with it at the moment though they could be possibly be going through what's called a Honeymoon phase.

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Originally Posted by maybee

Don't think you are the only one that's worried here. Some fans are okay with it at the moment though they could be possibly be going through what's called a Honeymoon phase.

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Yep I've read lots of worries, honestly if we don't get to see this game remade properly it will break my heart.

It seems like a no-brainer to me, to just remake the original story but add new stuff as well, that way everyone's happy?

I mean, Square Enix did that with FFIII DS and FFIV twice with PSP and DS. So the company is capable at making a decent remake with some good changes mixed in. However FFVII Remake has Kitase and Nomura at the control station which might explain the creative road this remake is taking. Nomura is responsible for the crazy that is Kingdom Hearts and Kitase has done some "marmite" works too, like the FFXIII series, I believe.


Marmite meaning that you either love it to death or despise it to death.

I feel like it's going to pull a Rebuild of Evangelion. It will try to follow the original plot but will eventually go off rails and turn into something new. If the dev team was smart though... they would set up future installments to give the player the option of following the original plot or give them the option to make choices in-game to go in radically different directions. There is a part of me that feels it would be interesting if you could thwart Aerith's death, but now it means Tifa dies instead. Things like that would be neat.

My take on this is that the original is there, it’s always gonna be there, and I embrace the fact that they’re gonna change stuff. Let them have their way with it. Nothing fruitful of creative comes out of remake culture and in the end all it really does is pander to nostalgia. Hi wil with it. Give us a different take. I’m looking forward to seeing where this new road will take us.

I completely agree with Fynn, we have the original well established. Though, I do understand why people are worried but the reaction people are having is amazing. Everyone is so invested into this story and whether you love the direction or hate it, it's this passion I love to see. It's rare to see people react so emotionally to a story (I.E. Game of Thrones ending but that's a different beast altogether).

I'm waiting to see the final product before I cement my thoughts on the remake.

I'm a bit worried, but on the other hand, I'm optimistic. Maybe they did this to surprise us. Maybe they will keep the major events, but change the way they happen, just to disturb both the new players and the older ones.

I honestly think them treating the original game like it still happened in the remake games universe was a very poor decision. Just make them entirely separate universes and do what you want with the remake. Fictional universes that try to handle 'time' storylines often turn into an inconherent mess and I totally see that happening with this game series as well.

My interpretation of this is that Square are making clear that this is not going to be a 1:1 remake from now on. And lets be honest, it wasn't 1:1 anyway, it's just that any time important events started to play out in a slightly different way, the whispers would come and correct it.

The visual clues in the end show us that Zack surviving his death in Crisis Core is not in the same timeline as the story we're following. So I firmly believe that he, along with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie are deceased in our story, just like in the OG. But even if 'our' past did change so he survived the Crisis Core ending... the final shot we have of Zack is him carrying Cloud towards the edge of a a cliff overlooking Midgar... which, in the original game is exactly the situation where he was killed. So whichever way you look at it, thinking he's alive and kicking somewhere is not a sure bet at all.

So I really don't think they're trying to mess with events in the story that have already taken place. The whole plot with the whispers is, in my view, more a statement of intent. A way of showing us that things may change going forward, some small some big. Obviously the big one is Aerith's death, and what they've done does open up the possibility that they let her live. I feel fairly confident that the fundamental, critical aspects of the FFVII story will be left in-tact, but the way we hit those plot points may change significantly.

Look at the Honey Bee in sequence, that was a really big deal to include. OK, it's not plot-critical like Aerith summoning Holy is, but it's an example of how there was an important objective to accomplish: 'Put Cloud in a dress.' But the way they did that was completely different to the original. The road to get there featured 4 new characters, a coliseum and a Honey Bee in vastly changed from its original form. And yet, it did exactly what it needed to do. The journey may have been different, but Cloud ended up in a dress and I have yet to hear a single fan of the original complain about it.

This is the kind of approach I'm expecting going forward. The Unknown Journey Will Continue​ - the Journey will be very different than we remember, but we'll still end up at the key destinations along the way.

There's no reason to think they're going to do everything differently. They know people are there for the nostalgia hits, we saw plenty of that being appealed to. And even though things seem to now be certain to go differently in the end, the party is more or less in the same situation as in the OG at this point - they've left Midgar and are chasing Sephiroth. I expect we're still going to all the same places to do a lot of the same things, but there will be important story beats that change.

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Originally Posted by Fox

The visual clues in the end show us that Zack surviving his death in Crisis Core is not in the same timeline as the story we're following. So I firmly believe that he, along with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie are deceased in our story, just like in the OG. But even if 'our' past did change to survive the Crisis Core ending... the final shot we have of Zack is him carrying Cloud towards the edge of a a cliff overlooking Midgar... which, in the original game is exactly the situation where he was killed.

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Wait, that doesn't make any sense though. They wouldn't show us Zack if they weren't intending to include him in the story we're, like, actually in and experiencing. Same with Biggs waking up, and implying Jessie might have survived. Just from a storytelling perspective it makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Madame Adequate

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Originally Posted by Fox

The visual clues in the end show us that Zack surviving his death in Crisis Core is not in the same timeline as the story we're following. So I firmly believe that he, along with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie are deceased in our story, just like in the OG. But even if 'our' past did change to survive the Crisis Core ending... the final shot we have of Zack is him carrying Cloud towards the edge of a a cliff overlooking Midgar... which, in the original game is exactly the situation where he was killed.

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Wait, that doesn't make any sense though. They wouldn't show us Zack if they weren't intending to include him in the story we're, like, actually in and experiencing. Same with Biggs waking up, and implying Jessie might have survived. Just from a storytelling perspective it makes no sense.

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Assuming he is still alive in the alternate timeline we saw, I suspect that might be used as a 'what-if' timeline. A way to flash into various events and show us how things might have played out if other decisions were made. I could even seen that being used as a way to keep the original FFVII events more or less in-tact.

"Hey, now we've killed destiny, ANYTHING can happen! But look at this other timeline that shows what happened when Zack lived/the plate didn't fall/Aerith doesn't go to summon holy. Look at how it always ended up with the planet getting destroyed! Guess we better follow the original events after all."

Ok but this is a Kazushige Nojima script.

I'm really scratching my head as to why they would think it would be necessary for the remake to address the original game at all anyway. We now live in an era where reboots are extremely common and pretty much everyone understands them. They could have just rebooted the story and make certain changes without having to mess with all the stupid time issues and people would have completely understood. I really do kind of question Square's ability to tell stories that are up to the standards of modern times. Perhaps Japan isn't quite as familiar with the reboot culture we have going now as North America and Europe is.

If I'm not mistaken, the game's director, Tetsuya Nomura, said he would not be interested in working on FF VII if it were a mere remaster. He believed that the HD version of VII that was released on PC, Playstation, etc, to be the remaster. For him, the game needed to be different.

The problem is that Kingdom Hearts, the last time I checked, made no sense. So yea, be worried.

It makes sense as long as you pay attention. There’s just a lot of stuff going on there.

As for FFVII, I doubt it’s them being unfamiliar with reboot culture and rather deliberately making metacommentary on it, much like Undertale did with the very concept of video games. For a game that has such a gigantic legacy - and one that people have been begging for a remake for so long - I think that’s appropriate. And on a personal note, I do genuinely appreciate the fact that they could have made a crapload of money by just following the additional story but instead they took a huge creative risk. That is commendable and in the pandering environment that is modern pop culture, I think that’s an incredibly important step.

Whatever happens next at least the ghosts of destiny won't be interfering with all the big important scenes anymore. That frustrated me much more than the concept they were going for and the ending.

I reject the assertion that Kingdom Hearts has ever made sense.

And I'll be honest, the more fans I see upset or worried about the changes they're making the more I want to play it if only because spite is a big motivator in my life. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Fynn

It makes sense as long as you pay attention. There’s just a lot of stuff going on there.

As for FFVII, I doubt it’s them being unfamiliar with reboot culture and rather deliberately making metacommentary on it, much like Undertale did with the very concept of video games. For a game that has such a gigantic legacy - and one that people have been begging for a remake for so long - I think that’s appropriate. And on a personal note, I do genuinely appreciate the fact that they could have made a crapload of money by just following the additional story but instead they took a huge creative risk. That is commendable and in the pandering environment that is modern pop culture, I think that’s an incredibly important step.

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Huh? The story in Kingdom Hearts is a mess. A hot, hot mess.

Doesn’t mean it doesn’t follow its own internal logic. There’s just a lot going on and plenty of terms, not to mention the fact that the series used to be spread across different consoles. Now you can play the games in order easily and, whether you consider the story itself stupid or not, it’s harder to make the argument that it’s incomprehensible.

I'm all for changing the plot around cause the original story had a lot of problems and areas that needed to be fleshed out better. My concern is that the game is being overly meta about everything and after seeing the trash fire that is Kingdom Hearts's story, I don't really have confidence Nomura and Nojima can pull this off without sounding pretentious. The fact the characters are doing this whole "let's fight fate" spiel got me twitching cause the last game that made that a central focus of the plot did a pretty bad job with the concept as well and that director is also working on the Remake.

I feel players may lose out of a game that could have fixed a lot of issues from the original and finally live up to its lofty reputation but instead we'll wind up with the staff dragging us through three or four episodes of their pretentious bulltrout while they act like they're work is more clever and interesting than they really are. Subtlety and subtext are not exactly this teams strong point and I feel they played their meta hand way too early.

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Originally Posted by Fynn

Doesn’t mean it doesn’t follow its own internal logic. There’s just a lot going on and plenty of terms, not to mention the fact that the series used to be spread across different consoles. Now you can play the games in order easily and, whether you consider the story itself stupid or not, it’s harder to make the argument that it’s incomprehensible.

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Lol. As though following its own absurd internal logic and playing them in order makes them less of an incomprehensible dumpster fire. The story was a complete mess by KH2. Honestly Nomura shouldn't be allowed to write or direct games anymore, no matter how intrigued I am by remake battrouttery.

It’s not my fault you didn’t play Chain of Memories before going into 2 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But that’s enough derailing this thread, I’d imagine ;)

It depends what they do with their newfound freedom. If they're going to do more human, more fun, more real stories, sign me the smurf up. Jessie's family, Leslie's search for his wife and Wedge and his cats, let alone how much more depth all four of the playable characters have compared to their original counterparts, wow, wow, yes, do this please.

If they're going to do more hooded figure boring ghost Whisper Kingdom Hearts trout then no thank you. Oh, and stop retconning deaths. Taking away the sickening gutpunch of what happened with both Zack and Avalanche was a cowardly move. Commit to it! It hurt and it was good that it hurt!

Most of what you saw in the ending is not taking place on the same timeline we're following. The scene before we see Biggs open his eyes, we see the Sector 7 plate very much in tact. So while we may get to experience some 'what if these characters survived' visions/gameplay as part of the story going forward, I firmly believe that the Biggs and Jessie we said goodbye to in the pillar are still very much lost underneath the plate.

You keep saying that but there’s no confirmation on it. And what happens regarding those deaths in the future games is what will really determine their meaning for FFVIIR. It’s a separate continuity at this point, with a completely different theme. The deaths don’t necessarily have to happen like they did in the original because all of this story now means something completely different, even if many beats stay the same.

After some though, I'm fairly on board with seeing how this plays out going forward. This game did a good job at hitting all the nostalgia points and fleshing out the characters. Even if the ending really did come out of left-field, I'm willing to see where it leads.

In retrospect my main issue with the final segment is that the level of powercreep to Advent Children levels just seems stupid. I get that it's for the bombastic cinematic experience, but Cloud effortlessly slicing trains and buildings in half with his sword is quite a jump in power from the rest of the game... like the Midgar Zolom better be ready to sliced into pepperoni at this rate.

This gif pretty much captures it:

https://i.imgur.com/a3N6qJ6.gif

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Originally Posted by Fynn

You keep saying that but there’s no confirmation on it. And what happens regarding those deaths in the future games is what will really determine their meaning for FFVIIR.

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There's no confirmation but that's exactly what the evidence we can see suggests is happening. That's why I bring it up when people say "They shouldn't have changed it so Biggs/Zack survived, it's important to the story they don't" because it seems very likely that they didn't bring them back to life.

One idea that I saw earlier was that in part 2 you'll be switching between these timelines through the game, the 'original game' story and the 'Zack lives' story, and each group would be hunting down Sephiroth in their own way. Something like that could be really cool if done well.

I'm just waiting for the part where Sephiroth learns how to jump between timelines and collects alternate versions of himself for the real final battle of the Remake where the player will have to deal with AC Sephiroth, OG Sephiroth (still in his blocky polygon form), Dissidia Sephiroth, KH Sephiroth, Ehrgiez Sephiroth, and WoFF Chibi Sephiroth. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I'm just waiting for the part where Sephiroth learns how to jump between timelines and collects alternate versions of himself for the real final battle of the Remake where the player will have to deal with AC Sephiroth, OG Sephiroth (still in his blocky polygon form), Dissidia Sephiroth, KH Sephiroth, Ehrgiez Sephiroth, and WoFF Chibi Sephiroth. :lol:

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...As much as the purist in me threw up a little when I read that, I won't deny another part of me would freakin' LOVE it

Also every version of One Winged Angel ever written would have to play simultaneous in a hideous cacophony of Latin chanting

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Originally Posted by Fox

Most of what you saw in the ending is not taking place on the same timeline we're following. The scene before we see Biggs open his eyes, we see the Sector 7 plate very much in tact. So while we may get to experience some 'what if these characters survived' visions/gameplay as part of the story going forward, I firmly believe that the Biggs and Jessie we said goodbye to in the pillar are still very much lost underneath the plate.

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Whether or not that's true, it still cheapens the experience for the audience. Hey guys, remember how much it hurt that they died horribly on the pillar? They're still alive in an alternative what-if world, tee-hee! Gotcha! ;)

There is no way "our" timeline doesn't interact with any of these "what-if" timelines though. I would genuinely be surprised if there isn't an everybody lives happy ending. They have form for this with FFX-2 and the FFXIII trilogy.

I fully expect that most of the game will unfold as it did in the original. However, much as the Midgar section itself, the rest of the game's events will be "off" a bit. I have no doubt we'll see the Zolom, fight for Fort Condor, march in the Shinra parade, stow aboard the cargo ship, take a rest at the beach, walk the tracks of the coal mines, play around at Gold Saucer, fight Dyne, meet Bugenhagen, get major creep vibes from Vincent the vampire, etc.

And Wolf Kanno, that's called Multiverse Reunion

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

After some though, I'm fairly on board with seeing how this plays out going forward. This game did a good job at hitting all the nostalgia points and fleshing out the characters. Even if the ending really did come out of left-field, I'm willing to see where it leads.

In retrospect my main issue with the final segment is that the level of powercreep to Advent Children levels just seems stupid. I get that it's for the bombastic cinematic experience, but Cloud effortlessly slicing trains and buildings in half with his sword is quite a jump in power from the rest of the game... like the Midgar Zolom better be ready to sliced into pepperoni at this rate.

This gif pretty much captures it:

https://i.imgur.com/a3N6qJ6.gif

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Keep in mind that happens in a weird metaphysical-esque singularity. It could very well be that the characters' physical limitations do not exist in that place while they do in the normal world.

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Originally Posted by WarZidane

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

After some though, I'm fairly on board with seeing how this plays out going forward. This game did a good job at hitting all the nostalgia points and fleshing out the characters. Even if the ending really did come out of left-field, I'm willing to see where it leads.

In retrospect my main issue with the final segment is that the level of powercreep to Advent Children levels just seems stupid. I get that it's for the bombastic cinematic experience, but Cloud effortlessly slicing trains and buildings in half with his sword is quite a jump in power from the rest of the game... like the Midgar Zolom better be ready to sliced into pepperoni at this rate.

This gif pretty much captures it:

https://i.imgur.com/a3N6qJ6.gif

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Keep in mind that happens in a weird metaphysical-esque singularity. It could very well be that the characters' physical limitations do not exist in that place while they do in the normal world.

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Cloud does some crazy bulltrout during the first bike race, also.

This has always been a bugbear for me since Advent Children. The original FF7 makes the characters seem mere mortals in comparison. One of the best scenes in the original game is when cloud reverses on sephiroth and lifts sephiroth with the sword he is currently impaled with and it is a fantastic, impressive moment. Then advent children came along and everyone was doing goofy physics-defying flippy troute all over the shop. Cheesy, and negates any in-game action.

Otherwise, I enjoyed the ending. We're in pretty much the same place as we would be in OG, there's just another story element. The group are still leaving midgar, and are still hunting sephiroth.

I think the remake would have sucked ending with motorball, and welcome all the sephiroth stuff. I'm a bit surprised by some of the responses here.

This is a all a question of stakes. As was mentioned, the pillar scene and deaths of many of the Avalanche members raises the stakes for Barrett and the others. Their deaths, as well as the thousands of others in Sector 7, gives the story and the player incentive to want to bring Shinra down because we can related to it or understand it. It's murder. Stealing "the lifeblood" out to the planet is more of an abstract idea. But murder is not. That's why allowing them to live removes some of the stakes and cheapens the story.

But if in our timeline those characters are still dead, that motivation is still there for our characters. Sure I can see from the players point of view that if we know they survive in some other reality they're not 'really' dead, but personally that doesn't really cheapen the effect because I consider them different characters. For me I'm like "OK, good for Biggs B and Zack B but the characters I know are Biggs A and Zack A, and they're still gone.

I doubt anyone here actually expected nothing more than a HD polishing up of a 23 year old game, Square has made it obvious since 2015 that it wasn't going to happen. But did they really need to force in a pretentious, masturbatory metanarrative about "whispers of fate" (a hamfisted allegory for ultra-purist fans) to justify taking the story in a new direction? People would still buy it no matter what they did, myself included, even though I'd prefer if they just stayed faithful to the original, but I'd still be curious to see how it goes. Not to mention it only further destroyed the pacing of a game that was already padded the smurf out with filler and side quests. And the way they handled Sephiroth was incredibly poor, they just kept shoving him in your face without bothering to explain who he is or his connection with Cloud and the gang.

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Originally Posted by maybee

I mean, Square Enix did that with FFIII DS and FFIV twice with PSP and DS. So the company is capable at making a decent remake with some good changes mixed in. However FFVII Remake has Kitase and Nomura at the control station which might explain the creative road this remake is taking. Nomura is responsible for the crazy that is Kingdom Hearts and Kitase has done some "marmite" works too, like the FFXIII series, I believe.


Marmite meaning that you either love it to death or despise it to death.

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Don't forget Nojima, the mastermind behind the Blitzball Bomb.

Speaking of Blitzball. The DAB features a shot of Johnny with a pair of sports orbs (can't tell maybe basketball). Makes me wonder if some sport will come into play in the sequel. Makes me wonder if Johnny will be a guest character in battle or maybe he and some other traditionally NPCs will become temporary party members. All bets are off as of the ending.

Also, I just realized something I really want for Part 2: detailed info on the Shinra trio that helps Cloud infiltrate the parade.

The destiny time ghosts stuff was a fairly explicit metaphor for people who wanted a straight remaster and telling them "Nope, you ain't getting that. In fact it'd be really annoying if we did that. Keeping the plot on its OG rails is actually not the best idea and we should try to make something better." It is a precise parallel to "We should try for a better outcome than the timeline we're familiar with" in the game.

You're meant to hate the time ghosts and think they're complete bulltrout who need to smurf off.

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Originally Posted by Fynn

It’s not my fault you didn’t play Chain of Memories before going into 2 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But that’s enough derailing this thread, I’d imagine ;)

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Nope it's Square and Nomura's fault. They didn't want people playing their series in order. Though even ignoring the writing KH2 wasn't good.

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Originally Posted by Fox

There's no confirmation but that's exactly what the evidence we can see suggests is happening. That's why I bring it up when people say "They shouldn't have changed it so Biggs/Zack survived, it's important to the story they don't" because it seems very likely that they didn't bring them back to life.

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Keep in mind who are making these games. If you expect things like internally consistent alternate universes, time travel that is plot hole free, or any of a million other hallmarks of competent writing you will almost certainly be disappointed. Also, frankly, going the full blown battrout route where Zack is now alive and it actually matters in some way would be far more entertaining to me than just continuing on as though it's an unimportant point to the story being told, or playing in two different timelines. I mean from what everyone has already described for me there's basically no mention of Zack ever so having him not be important later on now that he's not dead would be itself bad story telling of the highest order. It's a promise without a payoff. If Square doesn't go all out balls to the wall crazy with this then they're going to disappoint me which is saying something since my hopes for their games are usually nonexistent.

I think given stuff like Roche and cross-dressing and not simply having a Hell House fight but making it a massive epic showdown, we can safely assume a good degree of balls to the wall craziness :p

Just beat it the other day. Your concerns echo my own precisely. I'm hoping against hope that it's just an elaborate ruse to simply enable the saving of Aerith from certain death but alas, my gut tells me they won't stop there and will convolute it beyond all reckoning à la Kingdom Hearts 3. Another possibility is that they outright omit much of the original that gave it its richness and place the party on a much more direct path to Sephiroth in order to wrap it all up in just two parts (After all they did just spend an entire full-length game merely covering the events of Midgar.) It's disappointing, especially considering just how exceptional an experience it has been when they more or less stuck to script of the original.

I don't know if I'm still on honeymoon, but I liked the idea of the Whispers trying to keep everything as it was… It was a cool take on the meaning of «remake» (not just as it was, but new and different). Now that they were defeated, I can't honestly see where this is going… «That which lies ahead… does not yet exist» — and that's fine with me: sure, I'm nervous, but I'm more anxious than ever to see the next chapters!

It's clear that the actions taken on Remake had some kind of repercussion on the other reality, does the same happen the other way around? If Zack survived, what consequence will it have on Cloud's persona? Is this Sephiroth the same we defeated on the original, or another who somehow knew how events played out and is trying things differently? If so, why and how is he omniscient? What does «Seven seconds till the end» mean? Is it a glimpse of the future, will Cloud have to make a choice within those seven seconds? Will he have that time to stop everything from going to smithereens?

I'm sorry, I think I wandered off a bit…

Well considering Nomura has said he chose the word Remake for the title because of another meaning the word holds, and then tells the interviewer to ask him again in a few years before laughing... well we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

The producers have stated that the game will be 1:1 as plot beats go. It'll just be longer, deeper, twistier, heavier,wider, broader, and with more bosses, ((SPOILER)secrets), summons, abilities, materia, and Easter Eggs.

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I think the phrasing chosen was more like "We're not changing it into something completely different. Expect it to still be Final Fantasy VII for the most part." I still suspect they'll be taking a fair number of liberties, as they did with this game.

That said I feel fairly good about it going forward. I think what they're essentially going for is 'FFVII, but with this additional layer of mystery on top to keep you on your toes.'

I'm sorry for diverting some of the focus on this thread, but something caught my eye: when Cloud and all the others find Jenova, after Sephiroth's appearance and the Nibelheim vision… Cloud clutches his left arm… Is it because he's a clone and Sephiroth is trying to control him? Cloud doesn't have a tattoo like the other clones, right (I don't remember)?

I think that's where Jenova's cells were injected... so, yes, yes, and also yes... or no.

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Originally Posted by Jarvio

There is absolutely no point to having Zack back.

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indeed there is not, but i want it anyway and i'm gonna fight anyone who says No

in general i am ok with it not being a (complete) faithfull remake but i do hope they somewhat stay on track

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Originally Posted by Shaibana

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Originally Posted by Jarvio

There is absolutely no point to having Zack back.

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indeed there is not, but i want it anyway and i'm gonna fight anyone who says No

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Points