Criticism of Games

These are message boards and they are meant for sharing one's opinions and views. This is all very well... to an extent. The problem is that recently, I've seen a lot of so-called "criticism" that goes something like this:

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A pastiche of many posts I've seen on EoFF lately
FF[number] sux hard and the main character is gay, he looks like a monkey/freak/gay/idiot/asshole/alien/physcho/lunatic/retard and he couldn't get in a girl's pants even if he tried harder than the villain tries to destroy the world. He looks super-lame when he tries to wield his sword, and it's a miracle that the world managed to get saved at all with such a moron at the helm of the heroes' party. What a faggot.

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Only usually, it doesn't even come out sounding that intelligent, and that sounds pretty dumb, don't you think?

I, for one, feel that posts like that need to stop. Voicing your opinion is fine, but it should at least be done intelligently, and lately, I have seen far too much criticism that doesn't involve such intelligence. A lot of people really love some of these games, else they wouldn't be at these boards, and I know how much it hurts when people just give those games such a cold shoulder. I think something needs to be done about this.

Heck, I'd even go so far as to support a movement to declare them spam or flame-bait topics. I think all threads that start out like this one (whose original post was something like "is anyone like me and think ff9 sux and it's the worst game for psone. especially zidane, he sucks, looks gay, is so dumb, and wears gay close. i hate ff9," reportedly, and I believe it could be given to us verbatim by one of the staff) should be closed. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing it made an offense, punishable by staff PM warning and, if the pattern continues, subsequent banning, to continually bash games in such a manner. We just don't need that kind of thing to be done.

Who's with me?

Peace
The Man

I definitely agree. This flood of dismissing Final Fantasy games is going too far, as it keeps increasing in Final Fantasy VIII and -- nowadays especially -- Final Fantasy IX forums. For those who really like these games (like me), it starts to feel really bad. And the unintelligent criticism has gone really too far, not to mention repetitive. The FF-bashing is always similar, usually following the lines of calling the main character gay. If people don't like that particular Final Fantasy game, there is no point in yelling it out loud for everyone for the 100,000th time. They have nothing to gain from this kind of actions, apart from flame wars. Why don't they go find some time to play another game and post in different forums? The common sense is that people go do what is fun, not mess around in things which they hate.

I have to agree with your comment about their unintelligence. Screaming out unjustified opinions which utilizes bad grammar and dirty language is far from constructive criticism or anything which gains appreciation. Their constructive destructive criticism spam does sound pretty dumb, indeed. That kind of posts must stop. I have complained about it for the administrators and moderators for several times, and they promised to do something about, but it seems these "FF sux!!" threads are increasing all the time, despite the valiant efforts of the forum staff. The bashing has gone too extreme, and my estimation of the situation is that it won't stop without taking actions against it. Thus, I support The Man's suggestion of declaring unintelligent Final Fantasy thrashing threads "spam".

There really isn't much left to add. If someone doesn't like a game, they should just avoid the lobby it belongs in, and avoid threads that bring it up in General Squaresoft. It's totally unnecessary.

I agree I hate how people don't even back up a reason for disliking anything. They just say"It sucks because it does" and that just has no real purpose as they can't give legitamet reasons as to why they dislike it. I mean I really disliked FFVIII but at least I list the reasons as to why I disliked it rather then just say "because".

What's wrong with expressing dislike for a game? As long as people aren't insulting other people, who cares? Video game characters are make-believe. They don't mind being insulted. As far as "not having good reasons", what constitutes a "good" reason for disliking a game is entirely a matter of opinion. If someone dislikes FF7 because they think Cloud looks like a goon, that's fine. Feel free to reply and try to prove them wrong or just ignore them. I see no reason to stop people from saying bad things about the games.

The idea that it hurts when someone insults a game you like is kind of silly to me, but maybe I'm wrong. I love FF1 more than most people like their favorite games probably, but if someone started making fun of it I couldn't care less. It's just a GAME.

Using profanity though, that's against the rules. We ought not allow that. Or insulting other board members. That's wrong. Insulting a game though? Who cares?

Quote by someone (I can't remember who), "We can't ban people for being idiots". That'd be unfair.

We arn't saying that it's wrong for them to say they dislike the game. What we are saying is that they shouldn't just post they hate it with out giving any legitimate reasons like The Man said.

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FF[number] sux hard and the main character is gay, he looks like a monkey/freak/gay/idiot/asshole/alien/physcho/lunatic/retard and he couldn't get in a girl's pants even if he tried harder than the villain tries to destroy the world. He looks super-lame when he tries to wield his sword, and it's a miracle that the world managed to get saved at all with such a moron at the helm of the heroes' party. What a faggot.

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That is what we are again't. All they are doing is posting pointless spam without backing up what they are saying. What is in the quote is their only reason to back up their post.

"I love FF1! Who's with me!"

Those threads are allowed. Encouraged, I bet.

"What's your favorite FF? Mine's FF1."

So are those threads. No reasoning there at all. "What's your favorite FF" threads pop up once every couple weeks in every game forum here.

Those aren't negative. That's the difference.

Peace
The Man

We can't ban everyone who's negative. I'm negative myself. Should I be banned because I hate Black Belts in FF1 and constantly make fun of them? Often quoting my #1 favorite reason, "They smell funny"? Talking about how they get beaten up by dirty socks and squirrels? All of which I've posted repeatedly. I don't think those sorts of things are ban-worthy or even warn-worthy. They're opinions, that's all.

Yes, but continual negativity is never good. People don't come to the fora to see their favourite game continually get bashed. If they continually see their favourite game get bashed, then either they'll stop going to the fora or they'll stop being happy. Neither of those options is good.

I don't think that banning is necessarily a good option for people like that, but on the other hand, it's not good to let them continue making comments like "the main character of FF9 is gay." Those suck, and I think that people who utter such statements should be taken aside by one of the staffers and talked to.

On the other hand, Brian, you're hardly negative all the time; in fact, you're positive just as much as negative, if not more, in my experience. I always look forward to reading your posts, which is more than I can say for those who utter such statements as the aforementioned FFIX comment.

Peace
The Man

I think its an issue of wording. Saying "I don't like black belts because they smell funny" or "A black belt would lose in a fight to a dirty sock" is mild, and generally humorous. None of said quotes have ever sparked a hostile response. Criticism without evidence doesn't have to be offensive. If the tone of the post is confrontational, that could be a problem - like the example post of The Man and Bahamut. It's clearly intended to spark flaming. I don't think all oppinion posts, positive or negative, should be labelled as spam. They can be just as pointful as any other post. And of course, like any other post, they aren't allowed to be blatantly offensive anyway.

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Originally posted by Dr Unne
"We can't ban people for being idiots". That'd be unfair.

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I ban people for being idiots, and that includes the profane people who express their opinions in such a stupid manner that inspired this thread. Yes, what's "stupid" and what isn't are completely subjective matters, but I'm a member of the staff and I sometimes have to make judgments like that. And perhaps unsurprisingly, I'm not going to take it seriously when someone tries to stick up for //~*DaRkNeSs_BlOoD_cHiLd*\\\'s right to go on about how very, very "gay" Zidane's pants are. Sorry.

We can't ban people JUST for being idiots. Banning them for being a jerk though, that's OK. There's a difference, right?

Of course. Idiots are just dumb, but jerks are loud and dumb.

Yeah, we ban people for being loud, not for being dumb. Beind dumb is OK. Some of us can't help it. Just because we make dumb statements without backing them up with anything doesn't mean we ought to be banned.

Dr Unne, may I suggest that you take a trip to FF9 forums and see how bad it is. I counted that there are at least 10 posts by different users who say "FF9 sux! Main character is f***ing gay!!!". I'm not generalizing that all FF9-bashing is like that, and I'm not saying people shouldn't have opinions, but it's really offending to see continous posts like that. If you don't believe me and realize how immature and dumb... sorry, loud and jerk-ish these posts are, let me quote all the loads of "FF9 sux and main character is f***ing gay!" -style posts from FF9 forums, from various threads, that have appeared during the last few weeks.

I don't like it when people are crude and/or rude, but to say something sucks... well, a lot of us do it. *shrugs* I don't like mushrooms.

Mushrooms suck hard and their umbrella-esque shape is gay, they look like a dead tree/mouldy genitalia/homosexual fungi/dog crap/your mum and they couldn't get in my dinner even if they tried harder than chickencha does to taste scrummy. They look super-lame when they try to taste nice, and it's a miracle that the human race managed to stomach them at all in the first place with such a toe-bacteria-esque-quality and stuff. What a yuck thing.

I'm sorry, did I offend someone who likes mushrooms? Do you want me banned?

*runs away*

I think offending someone's mum when talking about how crap something is is taking things a bit far/personal :p

I can rest assured that you weren't being serious when you posted that, Daniel. There's a difference.

I wouldn't want a user who posted that banned the first time they did something of the sort, but I think a warning would be apt.

I don't like mushrooms either, by the way.

Peace
The Man

Mushrooms suck hard and their umbrella-esque shape is gay, they look like a dead tree/mouldy genitalia/homosexual fungi/dog crap and they couldn't get in my dinner even if they tried harder than chickencha does to taste scrummy. They look super-lame when they try to taste nice, and it's a miracle that the human race managed to stomach them at all in the first place with such a toe-bacteria-esque-quality and stuff. What a yuck thing.

That's all serious, only put in a very... uh... uneducated way. But come on, not everyone is a genius at insulting mushrooms, and I wanted to do a close ripoff of that previous quote.

I stand by my comments about it all but the 'mum' part. Chances are, I've never seen your mum, so I can't be sure.

Quotes like that do offend a lot of forum users, whether or not it's silly for them to feel offended. The point is that they could be expressed far more politely and without apparent intention to hurt others. Everyone would be a lot happier. And it is expected that you sound intelligent when you post criticism of games or whatever; if you don't sound intelligent, that just pisses people off.

Peace
The Man

Difference is, I know he's being silly here :p


And I like mushrooms, well creamy mushroom soup or sauce anyway, goes well with pasta and chips, instead of boring old tomato people always have with it :D

OOC:	Quote: Originally posted by crono_logical Difference is, I know he's being silly here :p Yep. If he weren't, however, he would feel my wrath, much like Lavos. xD

Peace
The Man

You're disappointing me, Loony BoB. A moderator who slips off-topic and makes prank about serious matter and posts unintelligent mushroom thrashing that is in no way related to this thread. Really, if you guys had been on FF9 forums, you'd know how big the problems there are. Ask Kawaii Ryûkishi if you don't believe me. Ask those who actually check it often.

Let me put some quotes to you guys from FF9. And they do have spoilers.

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I HATE ZIDANE!!! Wanna know why? I'll tell you.

1.) he flirts like hell, but it's SOOOO lame.
2.) HE'S BUTT UGLY!!! he looks like he's :bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:in 11, not 16.
3.) he doesnt even ACT like a 16 year old. Those speeches he gives about believing in your heart and stuff are SOOOO cheesy.
4.) he's stupid
5.) he's a (SPOILER)Genome. I mean, that's GROSS
6.) his clothes are so gay
7.) he has the worst dialogue EVER in a final fantasy game.

Garnet's mad to fall for a freak like him. It's hard to imagine Zidane's tail swinging around while they're makin out...

oh, and 8.) he looks like a monkey.

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Ok, that had loads of reasoning, though none of them makes sense and justifies the person's opinion.

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zidane trys to hard out of battle, and in battle he dosent try enough. the only skills i see useful are steal, thivery, and soulblade. the daggers kick@$$. the limits suck @$$, and he has the most stupid f***** pants ever hes shirt and gloves are cool though

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Zidane is an idiot
I have seen ten year olds with bigger musles.
He looks like F'n chucky for gawd sakes.
What is with those gay cuff links he dresses like a women.
save the world pssh I could kick his ass.
As if he could get Garnet or even a girlfriend.

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There was this other thread, but the user edited his post. Kishi still closed that thread. Here are two closing comments from Kishi:

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If you fail to express your opinion in a civil manner in the future, I will ban you. Too many people have complained about you too many times for me to keep you around any longer if you won't post with any intelligence. Thank you and good night.

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Sorry, you lose. Try again sometime, preferably with some intelligence and tact.

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In addition, one forumer called (SPOILER)Nicholas D. Wolfwood made loads of postshere where he was just repeating himself and that bashing for almost a month, and I was really starting to get angry about his bashing. Here's the thread closing comments from Crono_Logical:

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I think he's(editor's note: he = Sephiroth1999AD) referring to you voicing your opinion so many times in the same thread it almost sounds like you're trying to change other people's opinions on the game, which is the feeling I get anyway. Sure, you can debate about it, but it all remain as opinions, either side of the argument, and I think people are starting to take things a bit too personal in here now as well. If you really dislike FF9 that much, I think you should be the one leaving this forum, not others, regardless of how civil you voice your opinion, too much of it is just as bad as one newbie-type hate flame.

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NOTE: The name of one big FF-basher censored in the following paragraph. Highlight to view his name.
And then there was this thread at FF9 forums when (SPOILER)Nicholas D. Wolfwood was once again trying his FF9-bashing, or should I say, Anti-FF9-Advertising. There was a new user who had just began to play FF9 and (SPOILER)Nicholas kept breathing at his neck how much FF9 sucks.

I really think we've seen TOO much of this.

Sephiroth is absolutely right, and it's not just limited to FFIX-bashing either. Check this thread for some uncalled-for bashing of FFVIII that, in addition to being poorly thought-out, also made no sense. In particular, check the posts of a user called (SPOILER) Bloodthirst for some excessive mean-spiritedness after I politely asked everyone in the thread to be moderate when they expressed themselves.

I think this needs to stop.

Peace
The Man

It's not our place to say what needs to stop and what doesn't. That's the job of the Mods.

Okay, that's my opinion. But I see this kind of thing making a lot of people very unhappy, and I don't like that at all. I think something needs to be done.

You're right, though, Unney; I should have put an "I think" before that statement in my previous post. *fixes*

Peace
The Man

Well I for one am made at people that can't give legitimate reasons to why they dislike a FF other then "I thought *chacter name* sucked". And I have seen many people go on their whole reason just by that. I also think that this got a little out of hand. That turned into some flaming and I will supply some quotes that really p***** me off as I was trying to not go and do lot's of bad flaming like many of those quotes above were.

Posted by me.

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Oh ya and Sigg I personally enjoyed FFIX and thought that VIII was a much worse game then IX was. I mean VIII had no real difference between your chacters excpet limits and well I have yet to see some people's limits. I also hated how it had soooo much potential but they just never put in some stuff that would of made good for the game. (Zell's grandpa, Hyne, etc.) I mean it also had the same predicable pattern on the end of disks you go fight Seifer then beat a sorrceross (except disk four which didn't have Seifer) I also hated how the magic system took forever to get spells. And some spells took forever to get enough of to be considered a amount that will let you get through the game. Also battles were dominated by GF's oh hey my weapon isn't killing it let's use a GF ok end of battle. The only exception was the last boss which lasted fgorever unless you had max everything and well few people actually get that far.

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If you note I gave some decent reasons as to why I disliked the games rather then just a "He sucks I hate the game and that's my only reason for hating it". I gave some legitimate reasons (ok it is still crap but what do you expect from a 14 year old idiot?)

Then let's look at some people's response to my opinion as to why I disliked it.

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we obviously dont agree or we wouldnt be in this forum. why are YOU here?

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This was my response to that.

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I have a right as much as everyone else to say what I want. *looks at title* Hmmm it says "DO you want a sequel for FF8?" That means this is all opion based and therefore I have a right to express my opinon.

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And some more people's response.

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and what is your point? do you think we will start hating ff8 when we hear what you say? the only thing you will ever manage by doing what you do is to create anger and frustration. please tell me you have something better to do.

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Me this time.

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No I am not trying to change what you think. I am giving reasons to why I dislike it and why Square would NEVER make a sequel for ANY FF. I mean I liked FFVI as much as anyone else but do you see me getting mad and yelling at anyone when they bash it? No. I mean I liked FFVI a lot too and do you see me saying they should make a sequel? I mean I hate the idea of ANY FF getting a sequel. So I am not just bashing on FFVIII. If you do insist that I am bashing then well I am bashing the idea of a FF sequel.

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This guy again.

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But i dont think it really matters what you think bahamut. If you hate ff8 then off coruse you dont want a sequel, anyone can understand that. So what are you trying to proove?

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Me.

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I am not just saying no to a sequel just because I dislike FFVIII dosn't mean that is the reason I don't want a sequel. I mean as I have said ANY FF sequel is not good not just FFVIII, don't mess up what I have said. I would even hate to see a FFVI sequel or FFI despite many people saying they were the best FF's. I just hate the idea of a FF sequel. I mean I would go for the idea actually under 1 condition. TAKE OUT EVERY FREAKING CHACTER FROM THE LAST. Why? Then that game would make sense with new people on lower levels then maxed out guys. Of course by the time they did that then what's the point? All the original chacters are gone and what do you know it's a brand new game instead.

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Him.

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so why are you trashtalking ff8? what does that have to do with how ANY ff sequel would suck?

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Me.

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When I was putting down VIII it was to say why I disliked it. I mean I didn't totally dislike it. Maybe I should mention the things I did like would THAT make you happy? Ok well here it goes. The graphics were the most realistic out of every FF when it came out. I also liked the Balamb Garden over all and as a veichle and I liked the better blue magic system of NOT having to wait forever to let a guy beat you up until you get the spell. I also liked the Ragnarok (guns.....need I say more?) I also liked the card game. Well those are all the reasons, I could also add I liked the music (which I don't think I would have to say that about ANY FF. I think it's just obvious.)

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And in that one I even go on to say what I liked about the game.
He just stopped posting in the thread after that. But meh. I just get tired of people flaming for for having a legitimate reason to me disliking a game.

Nobody can always agree. I do loathe FFVIII. I don't have to go into why I do. For now. But let's criticize with a bit of maturity.

Now why do I dislike FFVIII?

IT SuxxORS!! : )

Real reasons:
- Subpar battle system
- Lack of character focus
- Lack of depth in main character

OOC:	Quote: Originally posted by Lightning_Demon Now why do I dislike FFVIII? IT SuxxORS!! : ) Real reasons: - Subpar battle system - Lack of character focus - Lack of depth in main character This thread is not about FF8. It's not about FF9. This seems totally superfluous.

Well, I'm really torn on this topic. I think that people need to be less easily offended, and I don't think people should be banned, warned, or even looked down at just because they disagree. I think that if people don't like a game, they should be allowed to say so.

The problem is people who repeat the same thing over and over using various slurs to do it. A good example is 'gay' - they mean it in a completely negative way, because they think that being 'gay' is bad. If they said "Character X is a nigger" they'd be banned faster than you can say 'Nu.' Why is 'gay' okay, then?

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Originally posted by Spuuky
The problem is people who repeat the same thing over and over using various slurs to do it. A good example is 'gay' - they mean it in a completely negative way, because they think that being 'gay' is bad. If they said "Character X is a nigger" they'd be banned faster than you can say 'Nu.' Why is 'gay' okay, then?

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Beats the hell out of me. I don't think that using homosexuality as an insult is appropriate, either.

I also think that bashing of games needs to occur less frequently than it does, and it should never be off-topic. Lightning_Demon's recent post in this thread is actually a perfect example of what else I want to see stop, even though his serious reasons were at least well-thought-out.

Peace
The Man

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The problem is people who repeat the same thing over and over using various slurs to do it.

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Exactly. That is what is happening in FF9 forums all the time.

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A good example is 'gay' - they mean it in a completely negative way, because they think that being 'gay' is bad. If they said "Character X is a nigger" they'd be banned faster than you can say 'Nu.' Why is 'gay' okay, then?

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Some moderators are less offended of the word "gay" while some moderators think it's totally absurd. I know one moderator who found it so annoying that one forumer used the word "gay" for offensive purposes that she immediately warned the user. Shortly afterwards, she banned that user.

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Originally posted by Sephiroth1999AD
Some moderators are less offended of the word "gay" while some moderators think it's totally absurd. I know one moderator who found it so annoying that one forumer used the word "gay" for offensive purposes that she immediately warned the user. Shortly afterwards, she banned that user.

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Ah, yes. How could I possibly have neglected to mention this example? You can read all the glorious details in this, the best-thought-out game-bashing in history. [/sarcasm]

Let us note that it wasn't merely Troy's use of the word "gay" that got him banned, however; that was merely the icing on the cake. He earned it through-and-through, though.

Peace
The Man

Everybody deserves one warning to shapen up before they get banned, unless they obviously registered for the sole purpose of being a menace (like mass-posting porn or making personal attacks on members they've never even encountered, or everyone at EoFF in general). That's the only sort of behavior that warrants an insta-ban.

Okay, I agree on the stuff that was written there, and chances are, that person would've been told to be more careful (Re: Nicholas D Wolfwood's comments).

But all I'm trying to say is so long as it's not using offensive language, I don't care if they're talking about FF or mushrooms. They can word their opinion, you can yours. They don't care that you like the game, why should you care that they don't? You can rave about a game, but you can slag it off too. I don't see the difference in extremity. We allow opinions. We just don't allow flaming of REAL people/members and also offensive language.

If someone wants to say they think that FFVII sucks, I'm not gonna stop them. I disagree, but hell, that's not my problem.

I just think that it's the people in this thread that get irritated too easily. I can honestly say that if people weren't so easily offended and open about it, flame wars would lessen.

But I like people being open, so I won't stop you. So long as you stick by the rules, I'll support you. Let's just take each post at a time. *nods*

I dislike those kinds of threads (I just read some of the FFX hate thread) but I can't seem to stop reading them! >_< It's like a car accident. You know you shouldn't, but still...

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Originally posted by Loony BoB
I just think that it's the people in this thread that get irritated too easily. I can honestly say that if people weren't so easily offended and open about it, flame wars would lessen.

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I've spent a long time thinking about what you said here. I agree with you somewhat... but we can't change what offends people. If users are consistently offended by game-bashing that occurs on these forums, then they may be driven away. I think we need to consider that as well. It's a lot easier for some people not to post on how "gay" Zidane's pants are than it is for other people not to be offended when some user says "FFIX sucx becuz Zidanz pantz r gay."

It's ultimately the staff's decision, I guess, but I still think that criticism of games should be more restricted than it currently is. And sometimes people just randomly decide to bring up how much they think, say, FFVIII sucks when it's hardly relevant. That bothers me, as I haven't played the game and don't want people's unsolicited opinions to colour my view of it. I'm sure those who have played the game and loved it will be even more annoyed, as I am when someone posts, off-topic, about how much they hate FFV or FFVI.

I mean, I'm not about to leave or anything because of the game-bashing, but I think the forums would become a more pleasant place if it were restricted more than it currently is. Hell, for every time someone doesn't post about their hatred of FFII, that's one less opportunity for someone to flame in response. The less frequently people have reasons to flame, the happier everyone on the fora will be. I'm sure about that.

Peace
The Man