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this is what i think happened....
meteor comes to destroy the planet,but it only comes to destroy anything that is harmful to the planet if im not mistakin...but Nanaki and his tribe of people were the planets protectors, therefore he would not perish......and so then,after being the only one left on the planet for say, 200 years, the lifestream kicks in and starts reproducing all the energy in the planet in the form of vegetation and Nanaki's clan...this is just what i think,plz beg to differ
i think that the planet killed everyone including nanaki,but then aeris used the power of the lifestream and planet to resurrect eberyone beside SHINRA emloyees
Well, Meteor would have just destroyed most things including humans and the planet (as Buganhugen said) would decide if the human race would continue living, since we see Nanaki is not human, the planet decided that, that species would live and that's why you see him and his cubs at the end. Well that's my sketchy view, I'd go into more detail on other things but i'm just so damn tired...
How come u think only nanak's race survive or do you wanna say nanaki because bugenhagen speaks through out the game how nanaki is the only one of his species.Besides why do u think the planet took humans as they were all bad
it doesnt matter if they were all bad, they were all human, not just shinra was gunna die cuz they were the most evil...assuming anybody died at all
Let me just correct you on your facts. Meteor did not decide what it destroyed. Sephiroth wanted everything destroyed to create a massive wound. Meteor was summoned to pretty much destroy the world. It was HOLY that decided what lived and what died. Why would Nanaki or Red XIII be the only one to live out of the main characters, let alone the world? I think an ancient power with the knowledge of the planet in it could figure out that some humans were in fact good. That is why I personally that people like the main characters, Marlene, Elmyra, and all the people in Cosmo Canyon lived. People like the Turks and any surviving member of the Shinra probably died because in the end you see the major threat to the planet (Midgar) in ruins and growth all over it. Plus, you hear children laughing near the end of the CGI, indicating that yes, humans live.
I think too like u seanFTthomas and i like to add that only MIdgar people died but because not of the planet but meteor.Besides if the planet wants to destroy human race for the deeds of goons like sephy or shinra then it is one selfish and stupid planet:D .
well, its like adam and eve. one of them ate the apple, therefore all of us live in a world of sin. we all have to suffer becasue of one person
sorry for the double post, but humans might have come back too life because of the planets energy. ehrn u first meet bugenhagen, he shows u how when one thing dies, it comes back in another form because of the planets energy. if u think im wrong about that, play the game again.
If all human race was destroyed then Nanaki would not still be alive, because he was on the airship with humans and since they are all in one airship the whole airship would be destroyed,
therefore destroying Nanaki.
well...hm....maybe he jumped out?
what i think is that holy comes through each persons brain and figures out human/creature and if the whole race of humans/creatures has 1 person or so of threat that race goes, therefore nanaki\redxiii survived because his tribe were "good"/neutral for the planet so they were left
or holy left the good people be searching there heart and killed the evil people????
just a suggestion might be wrong
its an imagination of a 14yr old ya no
I don't think humanity was wiped out, not even everything in Midgar. The fact that it's overgrown is a big thing because plants couldn't grow there before. Now I personally think that this has something to do with the promised land, but never mind.
I have no idea what happened as far as Nanaki is concerned, but he seems to have somehow managed to give birth, which I must say is impressive.
i dont think that anything was destroyed except shinra. i mean, for everyting to die would just be pointless. the scene with nanaki was just showing how everything eventually turned out 200 years later, scince he would be the only one still alive having such a long lifespan. notice the city in the back ground..i dont think tigers have aposable thumbs so they couldnt have built that. besides, at the end the lifestream helps despel meteor with holy, so i doubt anybody except shin ra employees died. i dont think squaresoft is capable of creating a stupid ending such as one where the main charachters die.- but thats just me
another theory could be that the "good" hearted people get "transported" to the "promised" land. and the "evil/bad" people die off
then after a few hundred yrs when the human population is at its average, they get "transported" back to earth
*shrugz*
or humans will eventually respawn and live once agian on earth
Ok, first off Nanaki isn't a tiger.
Second, isn't the city Midgar, I haven't seen it for a while?
Third, I doubt Holy would be selective, if it decided some humans were bad, then the species in general has the potential for it, it would therefore be best removed.
Everything has the potential for bad. Most are good, however.
It seems shocking to me that Holy would destroy a whole race for the acts of a few. Which is why I doubt humanity was killed.
1. Nanaki isn't a tiger ;)Quote:
Originally posted by vincent06
i dont think that anything was destroyed except shinra. i mean, for everyting to die would just be pointless. the scene with nanaki was just showing how everything eventually turned out 200 years later, scince he would be the only one still alive having such a long lifespan. notice the city in the back ground..i dont think tigers have aposable thumbs so they couldnt have built that. besides, at the end the lifestream helps despel meteor with holy, so i doubt anybody except shin ra employees died. i dont think squaresoft is capable of creating a stupid ending such as one where the main charachters die.- but thats just me
2. That city is midgar :D
3. It's 500 years :p
Why does everything have potential for bad? I don't see how non sentient creatures can be evil. I don't think Nanaki's race seemed that evil. The Cetra weren't evil, or whatever Bugenhagen was.
Ok, let me rephrase for the picky people out there: all sentient creatures have the potential for bad.
They might not BE evil, but they have the potential to DO evil. The Cetra could have taken over the world easily. That's potential. They didn't, and most probably wouldn't, but they still have the ability.
Meteor didn't destroy anything outside midgar. Right before the end it was directly above midgar. Its purpose is to make the planet another crater, just a tad bit bigger though. If it sucseeded, u wouldn't see midgar there, it would probably look more like mideel; a giant hole. Holy itself could have done one of four things
A) Decided everything on the planet was bad and fused with meteor to destroy all life not beneficial intsead of taking out the planet. (least likely)
or B) Let the lifestream decide who lived/died when it came out in the flashy ending sequence
or C) Didn't take any life as meteor busted through holy but weakened it to a point where the lifestream itself stopped it.
or D) Didn't take any life except midgar's main structure and exceptionally evil people.
No matter what, midgar would have been destroyed as a city and left in ruins by the suction/twisters that rained down upon it, but you'd think some people would have survived. It's impossible to tell what gets killed by Holy, because it was never stated how it works. as it passes through the planet, it could be formed by taking something from every living thing. If there's good intentions and the being lives in a way the planet isn't harmed by, it could take that goodness a nd form it into energy, if no good rests in a heart, It takes what it can, and in the process said being dies. Just a theory for selectiveness.
And now for something completely different
:chop:
Smilies are great ;)
Yes sorry if seeing a difference between everything, and a very small percentage of things make me picky. It doesn't matter how good you are, what about you're children, or their children? The planet wouldn't see humans as special, if they're a threat they're a threat. Midgar came from humans, Sephiroth was human, no other 'good things' are vaguely big enough to balance it out even if the planet were to be judging.
In fact I can only think of two places that really could count as pure good, Cosmo Canyon and Icicle Inn, both small, one not even really ran by humans.
u havnet got it havent u...
as people are saying (not me) holy might pass by and leave the good hearted people with absolutely no bad in them, and the ones that are bad for the planet are killed, seph is not actually fully human, he is sort of half jenova (what eva she is) half human
holy wouldnt have 'killed everything' it would leave atleast a few living creatures on earth that can maybe help repair the planet, and actually, it wouldnt have counted as "good" city and bad city probably just the people in the city
all i have to say
I haven't got haven't what?
Holy wouldn't care about humanity! It isn't special, it's just another species. Midgar is a shining example of just how destructive humanity can be. Humanity had done nothing particularly good to save it.
Holy's job is to sort harmful from not harmful. Humans as a species were harmful, if one person is good, somewhere down the line his offspring probably won't be. Mankind started just as harmless as anything else, it doesn't matter how often you reset the balance, it always leads to destruction.
I like to agree with the idea that humans died out. If they werent sucking the life out of the planet, the Shinra, then they were using their products, the Mako energy and such. Even AVALANCE killed people during their bombings, showing that humans are selfish.
As for the children's laughter at the end, do we see any children? Where would they live? I see it as the laughter of children dying out, as there is no more human children to laugh. Not all humans were bad, but they were lazy, as they originated from lazy Cetra, the ones who left for a less tiresome life.
Sephiroth, Shinra, and every other really evil person out there, is maybe 5% of the human population. Humans, Shinra, Sephiroth, were not threat enough to summon the Weapons, so why would they be threat enough to warrant complete destruction?
Just as every sentient being has the potential for evil, they all have the potential for an equal amount of good. It's just apalling to me to even think of Holy destroying the whole race because of the threat of a few.
then wtf do u call cloud huh and his group???
Here's my view:
Humanity survived. Cloud and co. weren't all fundamentlally 'good'; yet they survived being in direct contact with Holy, when it ejected the Highwind from the Crater. This indicates that Holy probably didn't annihilate the Human species.
Upper Midgar was destroyed, but the citizens survived in the slums. Afterward, Midgar was abandoned - it was a ruined city and a symbol of Shinra's tyranny and greed; why would anyone stay there? With the Mako reactors gone, plants could easily regrow - especially after 500 years.
Holy couldn't afford to muck around picking off the 'bad' people. It wasn't even strong enough to stop Meteor by itself; it only accomplished that because Aeris called forth the Lifestream to aid it.
Nanaki's kind weren't 'regenerated' by Holy or the Lifestream. Nanaki simply found his mate in the goodness of time. Both Hojo and Bugenhagen believed that there were no more of Nanaki's kind; but they couldn't be sure - it's not easy to prove a negative. Besides, we know Hojo was jeffed in the head and so his reasoning can't be trusted. Anyway, Bugenhagen once said to Nanaki, "You may even find your life's mate..." suggesting there was always hope.
The scene at the end, 500 years later, symbolises the return of life, prosperity and hope to a world that was dying under Shinra's brutality.
That's my opinion anyway.
So overall then what good did humanity do? Cloud and co did little, but try to stop other humans. Humans built Midgar, reactors, had wars. How exactly did they help the planet in any way? Some people didn't damage the planet but that hardly makes up for it.
I'm sure if humans actually did survive Holy then Midgar would be populated...as can be seen from the FMV, the only creatures there are Nanaki's race.
What good did humans do? What exactly would you define as "good?"
Midgar be repopulated? It was completely and utterly destroyed. Maybe the humans left it there as a symbol of what can happen when power hungry bastards get control.
Ok, one last time: Humanity, you believe, warrants complete destruction. Why, then, were the Weapons not summoned to destroy them? Humans were a harm unto themselves, not the Planet. They only harmed the Planet when they started using mako reactors, but they were all destroyed. They aren't a total threat to the Planet now.
Hmm.......sounds iffy......even if it were true, it does seem a little odd the FMV should only show Nanaki's race. My suggestion would be that if humans continued to survive, they would be shown in the FMV somewhere
Define good? Well beneficial enough to make humanity seem vaguely worth keeping after the immense destruction it caused.
Weapons jobs are to protect the planet in emergencies, they're the army not the police. Holy is the one deciding good from bad. Anyway, I said specifically I don't think humanity was wiped out.
Okay, do you think humanity was a total threat when it first evolved, no. But look what it became. The planet has seen this, from start to finish, it knows the score.
thelynchpin: you're basing your whole theory on an FMV sequence at the end of the game?
Phoenix: How do you think Holy decides between good and bad?
Weapons were there to destroy threats to the Planet. If humans were such a threat to the Planet, the Weapons would have been summoned to destroy them.
Finally: Humanity is not a threat. Individual humans might BECOME threats, but humanity itself is far from a threat.
well, I'm pretty sure that Bugenhagen says the planet will judge what is worth keeping and not worth keeping on the return to City of the Ancients. I can't see any other way of this than Holy deciding on behalf of the planet.
Humanity aren't as big a threat as meteor, but that's not what Holy does.
If you don't think humans are a problem. What do you call the reactors across the planet sucking it's life out? Even Wutai, isolated from the reactors is still a haven of war and thievery. Do I even need to talk about Midgar?
I think Holy decides good as hasn't damaged the planet as much as it has benefitted it. Bad as the opposite of this.
Midgar was destroyed, Shinra destroyed, the mako reactors destroyed(before Meteor hit)...so what's left? Everything major was destroyed either before Meteor hit, or when Holy came. What's left?
Also, what's that about Wutai? War and thievery? It was in a war decades before the game begins, and Yuffie, one person from there, is a thief. Is that what you're basing it on?
I get the impression that Yuffie's father, Godo, is a thief too.......he encouages her to take the materia
We're discussing a planet, not a goldfish. It's been around for millenia, it has witnessed the destruction humanity has caused. Decades mean nothing to a planet. Just because for now humanities sucking the life out of the planet has been stopped by a part human trying to blow a hole in it doesn't mean it's gonna forgive and forget.
Destruction humanity has caused? The ONLY destruction is mako reactors. They were a fairly recent thing, and were destroyed within a couple of decades. The company that made them was destroyed.
It sounds like cold-blooded murdering for me for Holy to wipe out humans on such a small chance.
When humans had the mako reactors, they posed a small threats. HUMANs fixed the problem. So now that the threat is ended, THEN Holy decides to destroy humanity? Why not just leave humans to fix human problems?
You still haven't explained one thing: How does Holy decide what's good and bad? What's your definition of "evil" that ALL humans meet, since you seem to think Holy killed every human being on the Planet.
I've said several times that I don't think humanity was wiped out.
Humans did not fix the problem, Diamond Weapon, Holy and Meteor fixed the problem. So really after clearing up the humans mess, the planet would be a bit annoyed.
Again I've explained how I think Holy decides, if something has done much more to harm the planet than it has done to benefit it then it counts as bad.
It isn't murder, unless you are REALLY eco-friendly. Would you consider it murder to get rid of head lice? That's exactly the same thing. Humans aren't special to the planet, just tiny little destructive creatures sucking the life out of it.
Where did you say that you think humanity wasn't destroyed?
And, Cloud and co. fixed most of the problem. The Weapons didn't help out much at all.
I've said it several of my posts.
What game are you playing? In what way did Cloud and Co. fix most of the problem?
What some of you are saying doesn't really add up. Holy Could of destroyed all of humanity in a second as bungenhagen said It makes everything bad for the planet dissapear but it tried to stop meteor since that was a bigger threat it didn't try to help it obviously since that would destroy the planet so it was over powered and the planted released the lifestream to help it and together they destroyed the meteor with lots of people watching for Kalm. If holy was really trying to destroy humanity these people wouldn't be there. And dont you think that humanity summoning holy would outway a decade or two of one city sucking some life out of the planet. And before you say it aeris is half human.
It was the Cetra half of Aeris that knew to summon Holy. Even then I'm not sure it really makes up for it, it was only half a human's good deed against entire corporations and armies. Depending what you believe, it was a human that summoned meteor in the first place.
If you don't then that's a pretty good arguement.
[q=Phoenix 17]In what way did Cloud and Co. fix most of the problem?
[/q]
They killed Jenova, killed Sephiroth (three times) and released Holy from its confinement in doing so. That probably counts as fixing most of the problem.
If Holy was going to kill ALL Humans, it would've started with Cloud and Co, yet as I've said they were closer to Holy than anyone else and weren't affected in the least. Holy would not annihilate an entire species just because a few of them weren't terribly nice. That kind of rampant destruction would make it little better than Meteor. Bugenhagen said that "all that is bad will disappear..." The humans in FFVII aren't funadamentally 'bad' or 'evil'. Even some of Shinra's top executives were merely misguided and naive, rather than 'evil'. It's their creations - such as Mako reactors - which were causing true harm to the Planet.
Anyway, here's something to think about... Red XIII killed a lot of people and monsters during the fight against Shinra and Sephiroth. That could be considered 'evil', yet we know that he survived.
We were talking about Shinra, not meteor, I know they helped stop meteor.
I still think Holy would wipe none or all of a species.
Well, AVALANCHE destroyed some mako reactors in Midgar, kept the rest of the world's reactors from being in use, and then stopped Hojo from from sucking up too much mako for that cannon.
Phoenix: I agree with your last post completely. Either Holy wiped out all humanity, or it didn't.
Someone(too lazy to look) brought up a good point...Holy was summoned, but the humans weren't effected directly by its presence...if Holy truly intended to wipe everyone out, wouldn't you have seen some sign of it?
They regretted blowing up the reactors, and it was Diamond that shut down Shinra. Hojo's a good point though.
You agree? Well that's all I've been saying... I think something's been confused somewhere.
I agree about the pont that Holy would wipe out all or nothing of a species. It would be too complicated to pick and choose every individual, but it would make sense about judging a whole species. Also, Bugenhagen, on the return to the City of the Ancients, he says something like the Planet can decide what lives or not when the time comes, and goes on to say Weapons would be destroyed, along with maybe humans. I know this could mean 'some' humans, but I believe it to mean ALL humans (or no humans).
GOOD LORD, hasnt this brought out the thinking caps of all you out there!
Wow, you know, I never really thought about it, because the ending, lets be honest, is very vague, and I HATE THAT!! I am a man of definate endings, but I digress.....
Red 13 said that holy didnt help, it was cast too late. So all those of you who said that holy will only kill every third person and also excludes (insert favorite character) is very wrong, holy only made it worse, and killed more folks off. It was lifestream, which started with cosmo candle in cosmo canyon (thats what it looked like anyway) that did somthing about it, but then again, isnt that sucking large amounts of lifestream, i.e. as sepherioth wanted in the first place? Aside from that, i duuno what would happen. I would like to assume that lifestram stopped the meteor, but i recon it would destroy Midgar and a large area around.
Showing Aeris at the end confused me, seemed no point really, but i guess it means all went well.
Or equally, because its the same shot as the start, maby, it symbolises the fact that time has reset again, aeris is the key to it all, and thus, a neverending story is born with all the mystical trimmings.
This gives me a very good excuse to play it again at any rate!!
When did Nanaki say that Holy didn't help?
In the final sequence, when their looking at it on the ship, he said it was having the opposite effect.
Yeah, because Holy was unleashed so late, it wasn't able to effectively repel Meteor.
Red XIII: "It's too late for Holy. Meteor is approaching the Planet. Holy is having the opposite effect."
The struggle between the cataclysmic forces of Holy and Meteor was putting the Planet in grave danger until Aeris (or rather, her spirit) brought forth the Lifestream to act as Holy's 'backup' to finally destroy Meteor. At least, that's how I interpret it.
and, as i had said, does this not suck up planet juce, buggering it anyway? the mystery of this ending will annoy me forever.
Phoenix: Err....tell me again why we've been arguing throughout this whole thread? Hehe
Anyways, PP: Not really. Holy was merely unleashed too late, so when it was destroying Meteor, Holy ended up destroying Midgar as Meteor would have. In the end, it would have killed just as many people as Midgar, so the Lifestream came up and helped Holy while shielding keeping the energies consolidated, so it didn't hurt anyone/place else.
I believe showing Aeris at the end was Square's attempt at being cryptic, and to get us to argue the issue of this "deep" ending, which in reality is nothing but a gimmick to keep us talking about it. Meh
Raistlin I have no idea lol.
This topic's gone so far into confusion I'm gonna stay quiet till something clearer comes up.
I know this is an old board, and is probably already dead, but there r a few good points here, I'd just like to mine forward.
I belive that holy stopped metero. It used all of its and the lifestrems energy to do this. Midgar was destroyed in the process, leaving the human world without a centre point to gather, so they all moved out.
The engery of the planet may have become unbalanced, and so human population decreased, but they r still alive.
At the end u see Red and cubs go to the ruins of midgar, possibly showing them where it all began. Humans abandoned Midgar leaving it as a monument, maybe even taking up the lives that their Cetra ancesstors gave up.
Anyhow, I think this explains the whole sequence and the question of whether holy decides between good and evil. ^.^
RBB: yeah I fully agree with you... it is an old board
Umm RBB, you didn't even mention anything to do with good and evil, let alone explain it. Though other than that, it's nice to hear opinions.
I think that if Holy was gonig to kill the humans then it wouild have killed Red as well. After all, Red need not exist to protect the planet if there is nothing else to protect it from. Also if Holy wanted to get rid of the humans why not just let Meteor blow up the planet. Too simple a solution I suppose.
1. What the heck IS Bugenhagen????
2. There was another good place on earth. Aeris' house and the cathedral appeared to be surrounded by goodness and innocence although they were still a small part of the total area of society and...
3. Nanaki could talk... Could this laughter of children heard not be that of his cubs? Just a thought. Very insightful ones that have been given already also.
1. bugenhagen is a human... who just happens to have no legs. thats why he dies so young compared to Nanaki.
2. and cosmo canyon i guess
3.possibly