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everyone knows that sephiroth died by the hand of cloud (well kinda died) then he fell in to the lifestream and remained there getting more powerful and more cetra like. however there was another sephiroth produced, but first of all how was he produced and second of all where did he go after cloud gave the black materia to the real sephiroth?
Ok, first off Sephiroth didn't become more "Cetra-like." He was just entombed in Mako.
Next, remember why everyone was at the North Crater to begin with? The Reunion! Jenova wanted her cells back. So, she took the Sephiroth clone and, I assume, absorbed her cells back. She must not have done that to Sephiroth because:
a. She still had some use for him, or
b. The cells somehow mutated with Sephiroth, which would also explain why she didn't absorb Cloud.
I agree with Raistlin:
1 - Jenova may not have absorbed Cloud's cells, because she still had a use for him too, namely to get the black materia.
2 - I don't quite know where the second "Sephiroth" came from, although, I believe the one in the North Crater is the "real" one, the one that Cloud killed in the Nibelheim reactor was someone, maybe a clone, who had Sephiroth's consience/mindset, after he went psycho in the Shinra mansion. You will also remember that Seph only appeared in the Northern crater after Meteor was summoned, so another theory could be that he didn't die after Cloud threw him over the edge at Nibelheim, and he went into hiding after the incident, and then, went on his wee rampage starting in the Shinra HQ building. This is technically possible, as Sephiroth demonstrated the ability to fly at the tmie you ge the Destruct materia.
just a theory but
this is kinda speculation but after seph fell into mako in the bottom of the reactor is it at all possible that he fell in to the lifestream (like cloud did) but in stead of being found just got carried around learning from it before finally being washed up at the north crater?
also i know this ones really stupid and unlikely but is it possible that zack (who was killed by the shinra guards) was revived by his jenova cells (from hojo in the shinra basement) and slowly turned into the sephiroth clone?
i know the last one stupid but is it possible?
The Sephiroth who is skewered by Cloud in the flashback, who appears embedded in the mako, and who confronts the party at the end of the game, is the One True Sephiroth.
The Sephiroth who is chased from Midgar to Mythril Mines to the cargo ship to Costa del Sol to the Gold Saucer to Nibelheim to the Temple of the Ancients to the Forgotten City to the Whirlwind Maze, who drops PIECES of himself that just happen to turn into Jenova incarnations, is Jenova's body made to look like Sephiroth and drawn towards the Northern Cave for the Reunion. It's not a clone or anything--just Jenova. She burst out of her little cage in Shin-Ra Tower, remember?
She separated her arms from herself to form Jenova-BIRTH and Jenova-LIFE to try to kill Cloud and company, and Jenova-DEATH was her last stand. The party reaches a point in the Whirlwind Maze where the "Sephiroth" they've been chasing appears in the air above them, then dives down to strike with his sword, beginning the Jenova-DEATH fight. After the fight, there's nothing left to be seen of the body. Tifa and Cloud also have some lines at that point further affirming that it was Jenova and not actually Sephiroth whom they were chasing all that time.
"But then, where did Jenova-SYNTHESIS come from?" As easily as the first three came from Jenova's arms and body, the last one came from Jenova's head, which Sephiroth cut off and took with him when he was flung into the Lifestream.That's true. I think "he" mentions something like that happening to him, possibly in the Temple of the Ancients.Quote:
Originally posted by Sephiroth's Mate
just a theory but
this is kinda speculation but after seph fell into mako in the bottom of the reactor is it at all possible that he fell in to the lifestream (like cloud did) but in stead of being found just got carried around learning from it before finally being washed up at the north crater?
God no. Zack died.Quote:
also i know this ones really stupid and unlikely but is it possible that zack (who was killed by the shinra guards) was revived by his jenova cells (from hojo in the shinra basement) and slowly turned into the sephiroth clone?
i know the last one stupid but is it possible?
Yes. Leave Zack dead.
Kishi: That's an interesting theory, and I have to say one I had not considered before.
However, I do believe someone(Dio is sticking out in my mind) said that the "black-cloaked man" you're chasing in the first disc had a number tattoo on his hand. I'm not completely positive, but I am pretty sure about that. I'll look through a script tonight if I don't feel too lazy.
A Sephy clone could just as easily dropped pieces of Jenova that she'd given to him, although your theory does explain that bit a bit better, it doesn't explain the tattoo.
Cloud was looking for Sephiroth, but he only asked people if they had seen a man in a black cape. He never mentioned his long silky alabaster hair or rippling pectorals or anything, so the people he asked mentioned any black-caped Joe they caught sight of. One of those, evidently, was one of the tattooed people in black cloaks making his way to the Northern Cave for Reunion. A separate entity of a similar profile, you see.
And, not to fault you, Raist, but what I just said about Jenova posing as Sephiroth and all is fact, not theory. The game demonstrates it and even explains it in the text; it's just that a lot of people don't seem to take notice of it for some reason. :aimwink:
well thats a damn good theory and that fits unlike a lot of other theorys. well hats off to ya that seems like the only solid theory on this sight well done.
To summarise:
- There was one true Sephiroth who died in Nibelhiem.
- There were lots of CLONES of Sephiroth, such as they tried to do with Cloud and Zack after the Nibelhiem incident.
- These clones are not aggressive though; they're just dumb creatures to be honest.
- The Sephiroth that attacks them in the actual game time (not flashbacks and whatnot) is, as Kishi so rightly said, in fact Jenova.
I think that's everything that needs to be said on the matter...
Kishi: That's very arrogant of you, saying it's pure fact. I'd like you to explain here how the "second Sephiroth" can ONLY be Jenova and not a clone.
The only thing that I see that supports your theory is that the Jenovas you fight as the game progresses.
However, there's still the matter of the "black-cloaked man" you're chasing. You follow him onto the boat to Costa del Sol...and the "second Sephiroth's" on the boat, but none of those disfigured clones. Shinra(the Turks, actually) trace him to the Temple of the Ancients, and there's none of those all-in-black guys there.
So, unless half the time you're chasing the "second Sephiroth" and half the time you picked up traces of just another clone, which seems highly unlikely and not mentioned at all in the game, the "second Sephiroth" cannot be Jenova-in-disguise.
Raist has a point I guess.
I always thought of it as the "second Sephiroth" being a clone with jenova cells who was being summoned by Jenova, broke Jenova out of the SinRa Building, and was taking it to the nothern crater for the reunion.
I guess both theories are likely, but Kishi's seems to stand out as if there was text about it. I also remember hearing something about a tatoo, but maybe it was Jenova formed as Sephiroth who made the tatoo, I really don't know.
The fact that you see Sephiroth dive at the party, fight a Jenova battle, then don't see him at all (no flying away or disappearing or anything) afterwards is proof enough, really. He didn't drop a Jenova arm or anything that time; it was his body that you fought, and it was a Jenova battle. And if that isn't proof enough, then there's dialogue sometime after the battle that spells it out. I think it's Tifa who comes right out and says it.Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
Kishi: That's very arrogant of you, saying it's pure fact. I'd like you to explain here how the "second Sephiroth" can ONLY be Jenova and not a clone.
Did anyone mention a tattooed guy going on the boat? I don't remember that. If they just mentioned the black cloak, they could have been describing Sephiroth.Quote:
However, there's still the matter of the "black-cloaked man" you're chasing. You follow him onto the boat to Costa del Sol...and the "second Sephiroth's" on the boat, but none of those disfigured clones.
Yes, there is. He's at the entrance, before Tseng.Quote:
Shinra(the Turks, actually) trace him to the Temple of the Ancients, and there's none of those all-in-black guys there.
I explained in my last post why it could be and probably is.Quote:
So, unless half the time you're chasing the "second Sephiroth" and half the time you picked up traces of just another clone, which seems highly unlikely and not mentioned at all in the game[...]
raistlin just accept that there is no floors in (that long unspellable names) theory he has a valid point for each of your objections and even more evidence in dialogue to suppot it.
i no i shudnt double post but i forgot this, also u never (to my recollection) actually hear the "second Sephiroth" talk with a voice only with telepathy
Also i dont think sephiroth would have left tseng living hes not that sloppy
Edit by Kishi: You can edit your old post with the edit/delete button to avoid double-postin'.
Next time, just use the edit/delete button at the bottom of your posts beneath your sigs.
Yeah, I don't really recall much of the "second Sephiroth" ever talking unless used through the mind or so, that goes toward proof that it was Jenova.
The second Sephiroth (Secondroth?) did talk, I believe, in blue dialogue boxes and all, at the Temple of the Ancients and the Forbidden City. I don't think that makes much of a difference on way or another, tho'.
OOC: The 'second' Sephiroth also talks when he throws the destruct materia at you in the basement of the Shinra Mansion.
The Seph Cloud attacks in the reactor does NOT die, he definately falls into the lifestream and is carried to the Northern crater.
The Tattoo thing is irrelevant, I don't quite see why people can look past Jenova immitating a human body, yet an ink marking is somehow beyond belief.
I don't see why the person you hear about shouldn't be Sephiroth, other than the fact that noone recognises probably the most famous SOLDIER ever. I also want to point out, Jenova has been alive for millenia, can survive in parts, and can change appearance and size at will. I have a feeling that despite the amount of effort required to pull off the amazing draw a number on your hand routine, she might manage a bit of impressionism at the same time.
My only problem with Kishi's view is that I don't think Jenova Synthesis is from the head. The name suggests it is a combination of things, and as it appears at the site of the reunion it would seem sensible that this is in fact (almost) all of Jenova, brought back together.
Phoenix I have to agree with you. How can cloud make it out of the lifestream if sephiroth couldn't himself? I was thinking that the whole time that you all were talking about it. Cloud does run that sword in him but it's like in his middle right you can live from that...
Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix 17
The Seph Cloud attacks in the reactor does NOT die, he definately falls into the lifestream and is carried to the Northern crater.
The Tattoo thing is irrelevant, I don't quite see why people can look past Jenova immitating a human body, yet an ink marking is somehow beyond belief.
I don't see why the person you hear about shouldn't be Sephiroth, other than the fact that noone recognises probably the most famous SOLDIER ever. I also want to point out, Jenova has been alive for millenia, can survive in parts, and can change appearance and size at will. I have a feeling that despite the amount of effort required to pull off the amazing draw a number on your hand routine, she might manage a bit of impressionism at the same time.
My only problem with Kishi's view is that I don't think Jenova Synthesis is from the head. The name suggests it is a combination of things, and as it appears at the site of the reunion it would seem sensible that this is in fact (almost) all of Jenova, brought back together.
I agree with this. I'd also like to add some important dialogue stuff that you guys have mentioned here.
*SPOILERS!*
[Sephiroth dives on the party. The party members fall. Sephiroth swings his sword. He doesn't drop a piece of Jenova. Instead, he fights himself. In the boss battle, you encounter Jenova*Death. After defeating him/her/it...]
CLOUD: "Jenova's cells... hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova Reunion..."
TIFA: "Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we were after?"
CLOUD: "I'll explain later. Right now, the only thing I'm thinking about is beating Sephiroth."
TIFA: "But Sephiroth is..."
CLOUD: "He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here. It's both incredibly wicked and cruel... But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within
this planet's wound."
So Sephiroth's strong will (or Jenova Cells) are controlling the clones and everything "within the planet's wound", the Lifestream, I assume. And after that battle, you re-gain the Black Materia, which means you just defeated the same guy who was in the Temple of Ancients and took Black Materia from Cloud.
For Jenova's head being Jenova*Synthesis, it could be true. I mean, the names Jenova*Birth or Jenova*Life don't seem to have anything to do with Jenova's hands, and the remnants of Jenova's body is named Jenova*Death. So you destroyed all of Jenova's body during those first three Jenova battles, right? Except that Jenova was actually a headless creature. But the real Sephiroth took Jenova's head and was carrying it (Mako reactor, five years before the game started) so he fell into the Lifestream with that head. The head was the only thing that was remaining of Jenova. So when you were going to fight Sephiroth, he sent the head to fight you, as a creature called Jenova*Synthesis. According to Final Fantasy VII OST (which has names based somewhat on the Japanese versions of the names), that last Jenova form is called "Jenova Absolute" or "Perfect Jenova".
Finally, here's one important line which shows how it's Jenova all along, and he/she/it has just taken the form of Sephiroth all the time:
"The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova."
well, there could be the fact that cloud had tifa to help him through, if it wernt for tifa then cloud would be screwed... or there could be the fact that sephiroth didnt want to get out because he wanted to gain the knowledge of the lifestream?Quote:
Originally posted by Tidus StarWind
Phoenix I have to agree with you. How can cloud make it out of the lifestream if sephiroth couldn't himself? I was thinking that the whole time that you all were talking about it. Cloud does run that sword in him but it's like in his middle right you can live from that...
Sephiroth took a lot longer to get out than Cloud, plus he did have ultimate materia and Jenova helping him at the time.
I'm still sure the last Jenova is more than just the head. The reunion took place there, there were so many Jenova cell's running around, they must have gone somewhere. I'm sure the name is relevant aswell if not why wasn't it Jenova Afterlife, or Reincarnated, or Limbo. I reckon the cell's from the first three could have gone there too, leaving very few traces of Jenova left. The only left to be accounted for being Cloud's and Sephiroth's. The latter being added after the Synthesis battle.
SM: You seem to have a personal grudge against me, though I have done nothing to you. Do you have something you'd like to get off your chest?
The Jenova theory seems interesting enough to look into. I'm due to replay FF7 anyway, so while going through the first disc, I'll keep this in mind. I'll see what I can come up with to support/argue-against it.
Talk like this ought to be reserved for Private Messages, please.Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
SM: You seem to have a personal grudge against me, though I have done nothing to you. Do you have something you'd like to get off your chest?
Raistlin, don't feel offended too much by Sephiroth's Mate.
After all, he thinks Vincent is Cloud's father. Need I say more? (Everytime I even begin to consider that possibility, I want to take a drill and stick it into my brain).
How about we discuss...*cough* *looks at title* Two Sephiroths, and keep the disputes to elsewhere.
As Hojo states, Jenova's body itself started moving from the Shinra building. If each part was hands/arms or something, then that might still leave the body. The attachment shows a fleshy coloured (rather naked) body, a deformed head and got knows what else. It might seme plasuable that Jenova's head and body became one to form the final Jenova, and she changed her appearance to replace her lost arms. Or maybe this is how she originally appeared, before she came a female smurf ^_~
OOC: How/where did you get that picture?
skyblue FFCompendium, which has alot of nice pictures that I haven't seen anywhere else. :)
EDIT: In accordance to Kishi's cloak/cape debate, I found someone in Kalm saying a man in a black cloak had a wicked looking sword.
That doesn't help any. :P
Of course Sephiroth, whether a clone or Jenova, would have a sword. I was pointing out earlier that I believe someone(Dio, possibly) said that they saw the "black-cloaked man" and such with a number tatoo, and Jenova wouldn't bother with that. Meh
Oh, here's one thing I thought of that supports the Jenova-disguise theory:
Beginning of the 2nd disc, first time in the North Crater: you see Sephiroth killing all the failed clones? Well, if the Reunion was so Jenova to get her cells back, why would Sephy kill them before they got to the center? While it's somewhat plausible that Jenova was down there, collecting her cells from the dead bodies, it seems more likely that the Sephiroth you are seeing is Jenova getting her cells back by killing those clones.
I think if it is Jenova, that Jenova is under the will of Sephiroth.
"Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master."
To which the party concludes that Master = Sephiroth. So, seeing as Jenova is most likely the dominent of the two beings, I would think the Sephiroth you chase is infact a clone, possibly the clone we hear of at Gold Saucer with tattoo #1.
Something else interests me. In the Kalm flashback, Sephiroth states he has orders to take back the planet. How on earth does he get orders? My guess is that Jenova has mental control over him, the power to make him do as he will... puppet-like. So in theory, it's possible the head of Jenova was controlling Sephiroth, and also controlling the clones through his real body (the one at the Materia Tree).
Ok Cloud I don't quite get who you think's in charge.
Why wouldn't Jenova bother with a black cloak and number?
Sorry if I confuse you, but I'm torn between all theories. I'm trying to set out to find the truth, rather than agree or disgree to any ideas anyone has. It could be Jenova, or it could be a clone. Or even the real deal himself. Or maybe multiple people.
I'm pretty sure the person Dio speaks of is the Sephiroth look alike/whatever, and not a man in a cloak. Dio mentions that he looked the same age as Cloud. Cloud said that Sephiroth was alittle older than he back in Nibelheim 5 years ago, so if Sephiroth kept his youthful looks of 5 years ago, then Cloud and him would probably appear the same age.
Bah....this is all getting extremely confusing.
I always thought that a Sephiroth Clone was what released Jenova from from Hojo's lab in the Shinra HQ's. Other people are speculating that Jenova got out on her own.
So let me get this straight. Jenova simply sits in the back of the Nibelheim reactor doing nothing, allows Sephiroth to cut her head off and escape. Following that, she continues to not move and allows Hojo to move her to the Shinra building where she is held for 5 years and has cells extracted to make sephiroth clones.
And then suddenly......she breaks out of that thing she's in(with no head) and starts killing people? Why now? Why didn't she do this 5 years ago?
Somebody please clarify this for me.
Now I think about it, it might have been Cloud that released her. She just happens to escape when Cloud is asleep, on the very day in five years he's there. Then he wakes and the door to his cell is open.
Why has that never occured to me before?
This interesting article has many theories about Jenova, Sephiroth, Cloud, etc. But it also has a fair few spoilers, so take care if need be.
Basically, I've always believed that the Sephiroth who released Jenova, led Cloud around the world and (SPOILER) killed Aeris was, in fact, a powerful 'projection' of the real Sephiroth, who was entombed in that crystal in the North Cave. At one point it is said that Sephiroth can 'diffuse his will through the Lifestream'.
Sephiroth's powers, combined with Jenova's, allowed him to create a 'psychic shadow' which he could use to travel the world, transport Jenova, find the (SPOILER) black materia and interact with real people, all without having to leave the North Cave.
I didn't formulate any of these theories; but they do fit in with many people's understanding of events in the game, including my own.
Jenova under the will of Sephiroth? Wha?
Sephiroth released her. He thought she was his mother. He talked constantly of the "power of Jenova" and such. I find it very hard to believe that Jenova was under Sephy's will.
Pheonix: Jenova obviously bothered with a black-cloak, since you follow the black-cloaked man throughout disc 1. However, why would she bother with a tatoo? She wants to make herself look like Sephiroth, not a Sephy clone.
Why would Cloud release Jenova?
D: That's assuming an awful lot. When I heard that, I thought of only trying to control Cloud while entombed. I find it doubtful that he can create matter. Maybe a mere image of himself, with no substance.
Phoenix, I like your idea that Cloud released Jenova from captivity in Hojo's lab. It explains why Cloud's cell was open afterwards. It wouldn't make any sense if Seph or Jenova opened the cell.
Remember right before the group gets kidnapped, Cloud looks through the window of that container that contains Jenova and he starts freaking out. It's possible the Jenova was communicating with Cloud subconciously and Cloud eventually released her from captivity.
However, how did Cloud get out of the cell in the first place? I don't even think the Turks are silly enough to have forgotten to have locked the cell.
Yeah, I thought that Sephiroth created a 'manifestation' of his will in order to release Jenova and do whatever else. This power is a result of Sephiroth's Jenova cells and the time he spent in the Lifestream.
The entity Cloud and co. encounter clearly uses Jenova's superhuman powers, yet it speaks in Sephiroth's words and from his perspective. Even though it's not Sephiroth's real body that the party chase, it still appears to be his mind in control (although we know that Sephiroth, too, was essentially Jenova's puppet, but that's just confusing the issue).
But whatever. I just like to think that it was actually Sephiroth, in one way or another, and not Jenova or some mindless experimental clone who I spent so many hours persuing.
*looks at topic: Two Sephiroths*
I believe that there was only one 'real' Sephiroth - the one in the North Crater. Besides him, there were his 'Illusory Sephiroth' and the men in black cloaks.
But hey, please don't read too much into my ideas. Any theory which fits the facts is just as likely to be right.
How could Cloud have released Jenova? You're watching him the whole time.
The cell was unlocked 'cause Sephy came by on a killing rampage. Who knows exactly how the cell opened, but Sephiroth was the cause.
Which brings a question about Kishi's Jenova theory: How could "Sephy 2" be Jenova if Jenova was still in confinement on your first trip to the Shinra HQ? You see her in Hojo's lab.
The group does fall asleep. It is possible that while everyone else is asleep Cloud escapes(I still don't know how yet) and releases Jenova. Remember, Cloud isn't sane at the time. There's a good chance he would not remember doing it. After all, at the time he was just a "puppet" to Jenova.
This game just keeps getting more and more difficult to analyze.....lol.
That's assuming an awful lot. Cloud's the main character. We follow him everywhere until later in Disc 2. How could Cloud sneak off?
That is incredibly hard to believe.
Yup. Cloud would have found it awfully difficult to sneak off, seeing as most jail cells don't open from the inside. Anyway, if Jenova could make Cloud break out of his own jail cell, why would she need someone to release her from her cell?
Not to mention the Shinra guard on duty would have noticed. Plus his way of killing wouldn't be proper for Cloud.
No human? Well Jenova isn't human. Then again, Sephiroth is somewhat 'super-human' in terms of strength.Quote:
Red XIII
"No human could've done this."
"I'll go on ahead."
Though it's confusing. If the person who broke Cloud out of his cell was the same person they met on the Shinra boat, then why does the Sephiroth character say "Who are you?" when he/she meets with Cloud? If he saw him when he opened his cell, then surely he'd recognise Cloud there?
EDIT: Just playing the game, I found something interesting.
Here, Sephiroth 'remembers' being in Nibelheim mansion, probably refering to when he was studying there 5 years ago. Also, he speaks of Jenova as though she is a seperate entity to himself.Quote:
Cloud
"Sephiroth!"
Sephiroth
"Being here brings back memories."
"Are you going to participate in the Reunion?"
Cloud
"I don't even know what a Reunion is!"
Sephiroth
"Jenova will be at the Reunion. Jenova will rejoin the Reunion
becoming a calamity from the skies."
Cloud
"Jenova, a calamity from the skies? You mean she wasn't an
Ancient!?"
Sephiroth
"...I see. I don't think you have the right to participate."
"I will go north past Mt. Nibel. If you wish to find out... then
follow..."
There still isn't any logical reason as to why Cloud's cell, and his cell alone, would have been the only one opened.
I suppose that if Jenova was the one killing everyone in the Shinra building then she could have possibly released Cloud, hoping that he would be able to find the black materia.
I guess another farfetched possibility would be that Hojo purposely left Cloud's cell unlocked in order to see how Cloud would react after he saw Jenova in his lab. Maybe he wanted to see if Jenova was still a puppeteer. Although, it still doesn't explain the "inhuman" way the Shinra soldier was killed.
Who knows? This mass confusion is what makes Final Fantasy VII such a great game.
Man there's been a lot of posts.
I'm not suggesting she was trying to copy a Sephy clone, that's stupid. I'm saying Seph would have a tattoo. He was himself injected with Jenova so he would have one. Nanaki has one, he isn't a clone either.
I still think it was Cloud, there is no other reason for the door to be open, or for it to have happened at that exact time. Opening the door, well I don't know, but I'm sure Jenova could have done it somehow.
Sephiroth did not release her. If you believe that I don't see how you can't believe Cloud released her. Cloud was in the building, with one door to stop him. Sephiroth was unconcious on another continent in a tomb of mako.
The Shinra guard wouldn't have noticed, he'd be too busy being dead. The inhuman thing could refer to the immense strength and lack of mercy that people under Jenova's control posses.
I've been playing the game recently and I noticed the RedXIII quote. Also the one about the guy in Kalm saying he said a man in a black coat with a wicked looking sword.
Real reason why Cloud's cell was mysteriously opened in the morning:
(SPOILER) Plot. If the cell hadn't been opened, Cloud and co. would've had no way to escape. They'd have died of boredom, starvation and Red XIII's B.O. in a matter of days. Not much of an ending to the game, really.
It's like the (FFVIII spoiler) inept Desert Prison guards in FFVIII who store the party's weapons only one floor above them in the cell block. If the weapons were safely secured in a locked locker (:whoa: tautology), along with Zell's lethal gloves, then the Squall and co. would be completely unarmed, and their grand escape would meet a swift and SeeDy end.
Plot considerations.
The best, the only way to escape the inescapable, survive the unsurvivable, and explain the inexplicable.
Well, considering at the same time (SPOILER)President Shinra was killed by something (dunno if that was a clone, or Jenova running around) then something was there to open the cell for Cloud. I'm going to go on a limb and assume that it was (SPOILER) Jenova, since it had broke out of its container. It wanted Cloud to be a part of the reunion so it had him released. Don't take that as a fact though... I'm merely speculating.
I agree, I think it was Jenova that killed Shinra. But she would have done that after Cloud released her.
I'm sure the plot couldn't have continued if they'd never got out of the cell, but I'm also sure that the doors didn't open themselves.
There is no explanation as to why Jenova chose THAT time to escape. How she did it. How the door is opened.
Cloud was under Jenova's control until he got his memory back, this is unquestionable. There was noone else that Jenova could control in the building, and she'd never just escaped herself in the past. She escaped at the exact, and only time Cloud could have freed her. Cloud's cell was unlocked.
I'm more interested in where Jenova actually came from, they finally said in the game that she wasn't an anchient but fell from the sky kinda like Lavos. Maybe her true intetion was just to destroy the earth just as Lavos did, it certainly seemed that way, and she was using the first sephiroth to do it. I think she left the Shinra tower as seph mainly to get Clooud and party to follower her as if she had a plan for him all along.
I like that.Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix 17
I agree, I think it was Jenova that killed Shinra. But she would have done that after Cloud released her.
I'm sure the plot couldn't have continued if they'd never got out of the cell, but I'm also sure that the doors didn't open themselves.
There is no explanation as to why Jenova chose THAT time to escape. How she did it. How the door is opened.
Cloud was under Jenova's control until he got his memory back, this is unquestionable. There was noone else that Jenova could control in the building, and she'd never just escaped herself in the past. She escaped at the exact, and only time Cloud could have freed her. Cloud's cell was unlocked.
Cloud: if Jenova went to all the trouble to disguise herself as Sephiroth, she wouldn't give away her secret just like that.
1. Yeah, Sephy could have opened it. Or the dying guard.Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix 17
Man there's been a lot of posts.
I still think it was Cloud, there is no other reason for the door to be open, or for it to have happened at that exact time. Opening the door, well I don't know, but I'm sure Jenova could have done it somehow.
Sephiroth did not release her. If you believe that I don't see how you can't believe Cloud released her. Cloud was in the building, with one door to stop him. Sephiroth was unconcious on another continent in a tomb of mako.
2. That Sephy was a clone, we've already been through that. I'm, as of now, rejecting that Jenova-being-Sephiroth theory for the sole fact that Jenova was still trapped when Sephiroth killed the President.
Pheonix: if Sephiroth didn't open the cell, why the hell would the path of blood go right by the cells? Coincidence? Again, you're assuming outside of the given facts when you have no need to whatsoever. And, if Cloud could open the cell door, wouldn't he have done so beforehand? It was opened from the outside.
What are you talking about? You don't see the President with the sword in his back until after Jenova busts out.
Ok, then, I don't remember it exactly, but: how did Jenova get out in the first place, if not for Sephy's help?
With Cloud's help. Cloud would be able to unlock the door with Jenova's help maybe, no-one can fully explain the mechanics behind it. As for the blood trail past the cells, this backs it up further. If Cloud was under control HE would be the one leaving a trail of blood until Jenova was freed.
Maybe it has something to do with what Sephiroth said on the boat - "The time is now"? Maybe Jenova's head controls all of the cells, and thus when her body is sealed in Midgar she can still control the body. Hence she decided to leave it dormant for 5 years? It's possible. And the first sign of her cells may have been Cloud's.Quote:
There is no explanation as to why Jenova chose THAT time to escape.
Phoenix: Ok, Cloud left the blood trail, right? So then he killed all those soldiers. And then he went up to the top of the Shinra building and killed the President with Sephiroth's sword. That's a BIG assumption right there. I see no proof whatsoever in that.
This explanation needs almost no assumption at all: Sephy came, freed Jenova, killed the President. You see his sword, you see all the dead guys, and Sephiroth had wanted Jenova freed before.
Or, what Kishi might be thinking, which needs a little more assumption: Jenova frees herself, disguises herself as Sephiroth, kills everybody in her path(she IS a killer), and kills the President.
Cloud: Jenova did control all of her cells...now what are you talking about in the rest of that?
What a barrel of monkeys I have opened here.
Okay, first, Cloud did not kill Shinra with Sephiroth's sword, Jenova killed him with A sword, AFTER she was released.
What Kishi, and most people who read the text in the game say, will know, is that SEPHIROTH DID NOT FREE HER!!!
Let's talk assumptions if you want. Let's assume Sephiroth somehow escaped the lifestream. Let's assume that he decided to enter the Shinra building at the exact same time that you did, without you seeing him. Let's assume that he picked this day out of all the years since he fell into the lifestream, and this exact time. Let's then assume that of all the people Jenova can control, she brought the most recognisably, powerful and useful into the centre of the most heavily armed place on the planet. Let's assume she ignores the almost equally useful puppet sitting in the same building. Let's assume that he got her out, and then, after all that, Jenova copied his image to attack Cloud at the Northern crater, because the real Sephiroth had decided that after a traumatic experience in the lifestream, and a trip all the way to Midgar, the best thing to do would be to hang upside down in a coma type state in a tomb of mako, so that Cloud could bring the black materia and wake him up again!
Phoenix: I said it was a Sephiroth clone, being controlled by either the real Sephiroth or Jenova. That explains the "2" tatoo that Dio sees on his hand.
Whenever Sephy/Jenova was controlling Cloud later, he always remembered what had happened. Why wouldn't he remember?
Also, as I said before, he's the main character. We follow him everywhere until Mideel, and that's because he doesn't move and it'd be boring to watch him just sit there.
You didn't say a clone you said Sephy. Despite no clones actually physically looking like Sephiroth, or anyone but Sephiroth and Jenova being able to wield that sword, these aren't the most obvious flaws in this theory. The most obvious being, WHY BOTHER? Jenova had a perfectly good puppet inside the building. A Sephy clone is nearly as unrealistic as Sephy himself, given the only one with any real strength still need several people with him to get into the building, and he still managed to get caught.
The tattoo would be explained if it was Jenova, Sephiroth was experimented on more than anyone by Hojo, he would probably have a tattoo.
Cloud was asleep, and not in control of his mind at the time. Very much like Mideel if you want to make the comparison. Even if he had been awake, Jenova wouldn't want him to remember, it would have given too much away at the wrong time.
I meant Sephiroth clone. I had said it so many times earlier, that I just stopped saying it, and thought that by now everyone knew we were talking about a Sephiroth clone, or Jenova herself in disguise.
You still haven't explained a few things:
1. How Cloud actually got out
2. Why we don't know about it, as he's the main character
3. Why Cloud doesn't know about it, as when he was controlled later he still remembered.
4. The "2" tatoo Dio sees on the "black cloaked man" which seems to go with the Sephiroth clone theory.
Concerning your last question, the person Dio saw had tattoo No.1, No.2 belongs to the man in the pipe.Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
1. How Cloud actually got out
2. Why we don't know about it, as he's the main character
3. Why Cloud doesn't know about it, as when he was controlled later he still remembered.
4. The "2" tatoo Dio sees on the "black cloaked man" which seems to go with the Sephiroth clone theory.
Plus... Dio speaks of this person who's about Cloud's age... but once Cloud wins the chocobo race to escape prison, Dio sends him a letter, which then states Sephiroth and him have spoken. Presuming 'Tattoo 1' guy is Sephiroth, why would Sephiroth come to the Gold Saucer, leave, then come back and talk to Dio?
Concerning Cloud escaping... I find it unlikely. For one, Tifa was in the room the whole time and didn't see or hear anything, not to mention that after they fell asleep, when they woke up later Cloud was sitting in the exact same spot as when he went to sleep.
Here's a totally random theory... maybe Reeve unlocked the cell? *very random*
"1 tatoo" whatever. I knew it was some number, I just guessed "2." :P
Well, that's about the time, I imagine, that Sephiroth goes to the Temple of the Ancients, if I remember correctly. Maybe he just wanted to know about the Keystone for...er...some reason? Well, two possible reasons, actually:
1. He wanted to tell Dio not to give it up.
2. He instructed Dio to give it up. Meh
Cloud: yes, that is very random. Hehe, it's very interesting, and you could make a really cool story out of it, but it's pretty doubtful.
well this one a bit farfetched but
Rufus the presidents son could hav done all of these
--- he would want dear ole dad dead so he could inherit the family buisness.
--- he killed the president with sephs sword although he could weild its true power he could still use it as a normal sword and i dont think the president would expect his son to jus kill him hence why he didnt run away
--- he released jenova to make it look like it was her (so now shes out of being frozen in some chemical soup which stops her from doing anything)
--- he released cloud and co so someone would kill jenova (easyer than sending an army to there death)
--- he jus happened to be there the day it all happened after being away on buissness for ages.
--- tell me if ive left something out
also another farfetched one could be the guard opened the cell in order to find someone strong enough to kill a nutty beast runnin round killin stuff. but before the guard woke cloud he was himself killed. jenova sensing the jenova cells in cloud left him alone for some reason
(maybe she was still a bit out of it after being in some chemical stopping her from moving for the last few years)
but if non of these are plausable id go with pheonix's idea coz he got supporting evidence
Raistlin I've explained questions 2, 3 and 4 several times now, I'm not going to again.
To be honest the last post is a very good explanation of what happened. The part about the guard unlocking him and all. The question of timing is my only problem with it.
It couldn't have been anyone but Sephiroth or Jenova because no-one else can handle that sword, there is also someone watching at the time.
I was given the impression throughout the game that the people wearing black cloaks were Sephiroth clones. And not only that, they appeared to be really weak and useless. If these are the clones you are refering to, then there's no way they could have killed all those people in the Shinra building.
I may have missed it, but are there strong sephiroth clones? They all seemed to just limp around.
That means that the murderer must be Jenova.
I don't think Reeve would have released them. At that point in the game, Avalanche was still a terrorist group so releasing them would only danger Midgar.
The only person I could possibly see as opening the cell door is Hojo. Hojo knows who Cloud is and that he contains Jenova cells. He probably wanted to see if Jenova still had control over Cloud. Notice how Hojo took off right after that instant for a vacation? Maybe it was to avoid suspicion that he actually opened the cell.
And after climbing all those stairs, I'm sure Tifa was asleep like a baby. She wouldn't have noticed Cloud waking up. Also note that she wasn't awake when the guard was killed. I'm sure that was much noisier than Cloud simply leaving the cell.
Although my theory requires a lot of assumptions, it is the most probable one. However, I think that it's just a plot hole. The door was simply opened just so the game could continue, although that explanation is very weak and it's hard to believe Squaresoft would do something so silly and simple like that.
Viper: no explanation as to why you don't follow Cloud. No explanation as to why Cloud doesn't remember.
Yes, there are strong Sephiroth clones. For one, Cloud.
Just because 90-some% are failures, doesn't mean they all are. Only the ones you see walking around in in all the towns are the useless ones.
Who's Viper? Can't see that name anywhere?
I've explained several times why Cloud doesn't remember. For one he was asleep, for two Jenova wouldn't want him to. You don't follow him for the same reason you don't in Mideel, you don't have to.
I like the Hojo idea, that would make a lot of sense too.
Raistlin are you now trying to prove our point? Cloud is one of, if not the only successful clone, so he is therefore the prime candidate for someone who could release Jenova.
first of all WHO IS viper? thats confused me a treat.
and did noone even look at my post or was it jus too unplausable to coment on?
also im really confused on the whole cloud bein a successful clone o' seph. how are the clones of seph made? wudnt they be more clones of jenova than seph?
coz there gettin her cells not sephs. (please someone explain that to me it really confusin me all this clone buissness)
oh and storm you climbed the stairs?????:mad: do you have no balls its way more fun runnin thru the front door screamin an shoutin with barret goin mad shootin round at everythin
OOC: Note on 'Sephiroth Clones'. Sephiroth was 'made' as a result of Jenova's cells being injected into a Human being, inducing new powers and strengths. The 'Clones' are people who've also been injected with Jenova cells in an attempt to reproduce the same success - to create someone with power comparable to Sephiroth's. They aren't 'Clones' in the sense of being exact replicas, but they were intended to match Sephiroth's might and brilliance. Needless to say, the 'Clone' programme wasn't wholly successful.
For further debate on 'Sephiroth Clones', see the thread entitled 'Cloud and Zack [spoilers maybe]'.
I actually commented on it the first post after yours.
Kishi would probably know for sure, but I believe the word clone is just a mistranslation.
oh rite so theyre not really clones but people who were given jenova cells to gove em powers?
oh and whats the deal with the big OOC: thing before some posts
'OOC' is short for 'Out Of Context' or 'Out Of Character'. I tend to use it for posts which aren't strictly on-topic, or which are 'asides' rather than direct contributions to a discussion. See here for more info on 'OOC'.
Err...I have no clue who Viper was. Either he deleted his post or I'm going dillusional(probably the latter).
Anyways, why would Jenova want Cloud to forget?
Lastly, Sephiroth was being controlled because he went insane. Cloud's not insane, he's mentally stable(how stable is up to debate). He resists every time Sephiroth tried to control him later in the game...so why would he give up so easily?
Yeah, Cloud's a Sephy clone. But I still don't think it was him. Meh.
The definition of a sephiroth clone is a human that has Jenova cells injected into them, correct?
Well, when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells why did he turn into a wide mouth, one armed claw monster, and then into a flying mermaid god? Did he inject many more Jenova cells into himself?
Jenova would want Cloud to forget, for the same reason she decided to look like Sephiroth, she was manipulating him.
Err, I'm no psychiatrist, but Cloud was quite definately insane. To be honest, probably more than Seph.
Cloud was asleep at the time, he wouldn't have put up much of a fight.
I think Hojo injected more than usual, or possibly it was because he did it in one go, or... err...pass.
Hojo was required to make a show-stoppingly bizarre transformation because he was one of the game's more important supporting characters and one of the later boss fights.
OOC: Hojo always reminded me of Dr Lugae
Ok, then, Phoenix, how did Cloud get out of the cell?
And, yeah, Hojo transforming was just for game effects. Thinking about it too much will just give you a headache.
has any one thort that hojo might of been doin that due to the mako juice stuff he had only jus invented? plus he only jus injected himself with the cells
Given there isn't an explanation either way, I'd say Storm's Hojo idea makes sense to me. Other than that I can only guess.
I too would have to agree with Storm's idea. It also explains the reason Hojo quit in the first place, only to be found working with Shinra again later in the game.
i dunno id hav fort bein injected with more jenova cells would jus increase the rate at which you lost it
Sephiroth's Mate originally said:
"Rufus the presidents son could hav done all of these
--- he would want dear ole dad dead so he could inherit the family buisness.
--- he killed the president with sephs sword although he could weild its true power he could still use it as a normal sword and i dont think the president would expect his son to jus kill him hence why he didnt run away
--- he released jenova to make it look like it was her (so now shes out of being frozen in some chemical soup which stops her from doing anything)
--- he released cloud and co so someone would kill jenova (easyer than sending an army to there death)
--- he jus happened to be there the day it all happened after being away on buissness for ages.
--- tell me if ive left something out."
This isn't possible, because when you go to the 70th floor after Jenova breaks loose you find Palmer hiding. Palmer says something to the extent that "I saw Sephiroth with my own eyes."
Which means, it's either a Sephiroth Clone or Jenova Disguised as Sephiroth.(In my opinion, it is the latter)
[q=Storm]it's either a Sephiroth Clone or Jenova Disguised as Sephiroth.(In my opinion, it is the latter)[/q]
Yup, this seems to be the general consensus, but there are still mysteries.
1. Someone - or something - must've helped Jenova to escape. A headless body (even one with Jenova's powers) would have difficulty finding its way around.
2. If President Shinra was killed by Jenova, why would she bother assuming Sephiroth's form in order to do it? Why would she use his form to move around the place?
Warning - more spoilers than you could shake a stick at:
Here's my theory, with a bit of supporting evidence:
Sephiroth's 'manifestation' (mentioned earlier in this thread) carried Jenova out of the building. This explains Sephiroth being seen in the Shinra building. It also means that the party really was chasing Sephiroth (even if it was just a 'projection' of his mind and power)for the rest of the game, and it wasn't a colossal misunderstanding.
Evidence: Seph (as chased by the party) can fly, and pass through walls. Clearly not an entirely corporeal being... yet he can manipulate objects (use sword, throw Materia) kind of like a poltergeist. His words and actions suggest that he was Seph, and not Jenova. The real Seph's body, as we know, was in the North Cave, with no shirt or cape. This is the one killed by Cloud at the very end.
Further evidence of the 'Sephiroth Manifestation' theory: When the party is gathered around Holy's confinement vessel deep in the Planet, Sephiroth appears before them. Actually appears. This apparition is the same as the fully-dressed Sephiroth who they were chasing all along. It's obviously not the 'real' Sephiroth, because the real Seph had no shirt. It's the 'form' Sephiroth used so that he could leave the North Cave, find the Black Materia, free Jenova's body and take it to the Reunion.
The character's words, at times (such as on the Cargo Ship and other instances) support this theory, in my opinion.
It's entirely possible that the 'second Sephiroth', the 'manifestation', freed Cloud after releasing Jenova, so that he'd be able to attend the Reunion.
Or Cloud's cell door may simply have been opened by the dead guard inadvertently hitting a button on his remote control, or it could have been a side-effect of the heavily damaged walls and equipment left behind by the rampage of Jenova/ Sephiroth.
Okay good idea, this thread is getting a bit mixed up so I'll summarise my stance aswell just to get it clear.
Jenova was behind the whole thing, from start to finish. The only time I think Sephiroth is in control is before he learns his history, and after you defeat Safer. By then he's too screwed up for any chance of turning back, this may even be Jenova's last effort of survival, and it's actually a one on one between Jenova and the last missing part of her body.
The Sephiroth you chase throughout the game is Jenova. This has been established by many people, I think Kishi has given the most conclusive evidence for this in this thread so check back for any proof (sorry if it was someone else, it's been a long thread). Jenova can alter her appearance, I believe this has already been quoted this thread, as I believe Jenova is in control I see no point for a projected image.
Cloud released Jenova, I originally thought of this as a reaction to a question on here, and the more I thought it through and people added to it, the more certain I am this is true. I've explained this several times this thread, so again check back for evidence.
Clones refer to anyone who was experimented on after the Nibelheim fire, there are few exceptions. Sephiroth probably has the tattoo number one as he was the original.
The entire point of all of this is for the reunion to take place successfully, so that Jenova can fully reform and take the power of the planet. She starts off in pieces and almost everything in the game revolves around this happening. This finishes with a final "Synthesis", then a bonding with her most concentrated puppet, Sephiroth.
OK, I'm convinced. It's well-established that Sephiroth himself was simply Jenova's 'greatest puppet', even when he believed he was doing her bidding. One question though...
WHY did Jenova use Sephiroth's form during her travels around the world? Surely not simply to manipulate Cloud, she could do that easily enough (Temple of the Ancients and the Ancient City spring to mind).
So why, exactly, did Jenova choose to look like Sephiroth, act like him, speak like him and draw upon his memories?
One thing I particularly love about FFVII is its many levels of meaning, its concealed truths and false realities. Unlocking these, and the reasoning behind them, is an endless source of interest, even years later.
I think Jenova could deduce that it wouldn't be very efficient to trudge around the world as a giant alien creature, making a spectacle of itself all along the way. So, when deciding what illusion to use to disguise itself, it simply chose the human who apparently had the greatest connection to it--Sephiroth. Like Phoenix and Big D said, Sephiroth was its greatest puppet. However, he was also the one who had its cells inside of him since before he was even born, who made off with its head five years ago, and was, after all, currently located at the very place where the Reunion was to take place.
Yeah, the connection between Sephiroth and Jenova is extremely strong. But something has occurred to me.
Jenova's headless body probably wouldn't have any real control, would it? Beyond instinct, I mean. Allow me to explain. The Clones were all driven by 'instinct' instilled by Jenova's cells, and by Sephiroth's 'summon' (they all felt the call to join with him at the Reunion). So I figure that Jenova's body couldn't have left the Shinra building on its own. Something must have been controlling it, guiding it. That something...? The mind of Sephiroth. Now, I'm not suggesting that Sephiroth was the real puppet-master, but rather that his mind was guiding Jenova's body toward the Reunion. We all know that Jenova was the one who was REALLY in control, but Sephiroth would at least have believed that the thoughts and ideas were his own. After all, Cloud delivered the Black Materia to Sephiroth, the Clones all wanted to become one with Sephiroth. It seems that Sephiroth's voice was the one leading all to the Reunion; Sephiroth was the one being reborn as a 'God'. So, to recap...
Jenova had the ultimate influence over Sephiroth. This we know. But Sephiroth's mind reached out over the distance from the North Cave to the Clones, and to Midgar where it took command of Jenova's incapacitated body. Sephiroth sought the Black Materia so that he could become a 'God' and rule the Planet alongside his 'Mother'.
THe only point of this theory is that it puts Sephiroth in place as one of the story's main antagonists. It means that Sephiroth really did kill Aeris and summon the meteor, even if his crimes were all commited as a result of Jenova's invasive corruption.
At the Reunion, all of the Clones were uttering, "Must bring it to Sephiroth...Sephiroth is calling...must bring it to Sephiroth..." so I don't dount that it was Sephiroth's voice, and not Jenova's, that was leading them. Cloud himself realised, "I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth... I was being summoned by Sephiroth." If it was Jenova, she wouldn't bother to pretend to be someone else, when speaking into the minds of those who carried her cells.
As long as Jenova was dismembered, she wasn't able to directly command anyone. However her prized toy, Sephiroth, knew how to restore her and how to gain the power necessary for the two of them to control the Planet.
I don't know how sensible or logical this is... but it's one theory which combines the best of each:
Following this premise, it was Jenova in disguise as Sephiroth who the party chased throughout the game. But also, it means that Sephiroth was responsibe for the crimes and actions attributed to him: killing Aeris and President Shinra, summoning Meteor, and so forth. Even if his real body (as said in the game) never left the North Cave.
THis theory would unite the story, as told in the game, with the 'true' story which can only be interpreted from the events, after the fact.
But perhaps I'm just spouting nonsense?
Bah. I think she had full control, always did. Yeah, her headless body might need guidance, but her head can do that. I think Sephiroth, after he went insane, mentally submitted to Jenova's will. He called her his "Mother" and an Ancient. I think he would've willingly obeyed her every command.
Kishi: You still haven't explained how you think Jenova's body escaped.
I like to think it escaped by itself. If it was able to leave huge claw marks in metal walls, I think it could have knocked down a door.
I am shocked by what you have all failed to realize.
First off. I have played the game 6 times, so I know what I'm talking about.
It IS possible for him to have survived the fall. One thing we know is that it was five years. That's enough time to recouperate don't you think? Also, he is just aclone of the real sephiroth, which is the one where it plays "One winged angel", as well as Cloud. Also, I believe there are atually a grand total of "21" Sephiroth clones.
All of the guys that are in the capes:18
Cloud and "Sephiroth", "Man in the black cape sephiroth":2
Zack:1
Sephiroth couldn't have been Zack because they were on that mission together in Nibelheim.
Also, Sephiroth "One winged angel one" is what was born from Jenova...Which came in Meteor, leaving a scar in the planet. Jenova must have left Sephiroth in there while she tried to hide herself somewhere else. Jenova had the "Man in the black cape" Sephiroth to summon meteor again.
Clear anything up?
Jenova didn't arrive on the Planet courtesy of Meteor. There's nothing in the game's text that implied that it did. As important as the Ultimate Destructive Magic was to the Cetra, Ifalna would have mentioned during her explanation of Jenova's arrival if Jenova had ever used it.
Errr...first off, Seph88: Obviously, Sephiroth survived the fall. He's entombed in mako in the North Crater until early disc 2.
And when did anyone say anything about Sephiroth being Zack?
Righty. Here's another of those 'approximate timeline of events' thingies which may help:
1: Jenova falls from sky, Planet injured.
2: Ancients nearly decimated, Jenova confined.
3: Jenova dug up, mistakenly identified as an 'Ancient'.
4: Jenova project. Sephiroth born.
5: Nibelheim incident. Sephiroth disappears. Sephiroth 'Clones' produced.
6: Cloud escapes to Midgar in delusional state.
7: Cloud incarcerated in Shinra building. Jenova's body escapes.
8. Sephiroth clones hear Sephiroth's voice telling them to find the Black Materia and head to the Reunion at the North Cave.
9. Cloud and co. pursue an entity that looks, speaks and acts like Sephiroth.
10. Cloud succumbs to Sephiroth's influence and gives him the Black Materia. Meteor summoned.
11. Jenova-Synthesis, Bizarro Sephiroth, Safer-Sephiroth and human Sephiroth all killed. World saved.
The crimson entries are points that either aren't entirely clear or are still being debated.
Anyone else notice that Sephiroth's transformations (Bizarro and Safer) are far stronger than Jenova-Synthesis? That's part of the reason that I believe Sephiroth was the one who was 'becoming one with the Planet' and gaining greater powers, rather than Jenova herself. Of course, once Sephiroth is deprived of Jenova's help and reduced to his true human form, he's really pretty average. He was totally dependent on jenova for his physical, mental and magical strength; he was subservient to Jenova and her wishes, just not consciously. He believed that he was responsible for what he was doing and planning. (My opinion only - not guaranteed fact).
12. Everyone gets ice cream.
13. Are you taking the mickey?
I believe the reason Bizzaro and Safer are stronger than Synthesis, is because they are the final form of Synthesis. Jenova Synthesis is all of her body joined together except Cloud, Sephiroth, and maybe some loose ends. Sephiroth is the largest human source of Jenova, and is added after Synthesis battle.
It couldn't have been a clone you follow. Clones don't look like Sephiroth, only one clone makes it near Sephiroth's strength, and clones can't fly or turn into Jenova Death.
I still think Jenova had complete control, and that she killed Aeris, maybe directly, Sephiroth has no reason to have any kind of psychic ability, certainly not to that extent.
Bah, Sephiroth was more powerful for one reason and one reason only: game mechanics.
Sephiroth summoned Meteor, so he's the one that HAD to be killed. Also, Cloud viewed him as the main bad guy from the beginning. Of course Sephy'd be the last fight, and wouldn't it be pathetic if the last fight was a breeze?
[q=Raistlin]Sephiroth summoned Meteor[/q]
No argument there, but one must wonder, why?
After reading the opinions and inferences in this thread, it would seem strange that Sephiroth, and not Jenova, would do the actual summoning of Meteor.
What I'm trying to understand - and what hasn't yet been satisfactorily explained - is why Jenova impersonated Sephiroth, and why the Clones were all drawn toward Sephiroth, rather than Jenova.
Sephiroth, entombed in the North Cave, was already in the 'Promised Land' and contained a high concentration of active Jenova cells, so I guess that explains him being the focal point of the 'Reunion', but it doesn't explain why Jenova would travel the world in her ''son's'' guise, pretending to be him; even right at the end, before the fight against Bizarro-Sephiroth, the party is faced by the same 'form' of Sephiroth that they were chasing all along. Why continue the pretense? Why bother with it at all?
I'm genuinely sorry if it sounds like I'm being pedantic and argumentative. I'd just like to understand and discuss these issues more fully.
This point has been debated and discussed amongst FFVII fans for years. Technically, some people will always believe that Jenova was the main villain and the rest will stay firm that Sephiroth is. I tend to beleive the latter. The best I can offer is to explain why.
First, Sephiroth was created in a very unique way to anyone else ever injected with Mako & Jenova cells. His power was abnormal because of this. Now, before his pilgrimage of the Lifestream, Sephiroth was obviously emotionally unhinged, injured and insane. At this point, perhaps he could have been manipulated by Jenova. But, we must remember the Mako inside him. Add his trip through the Lifestream to that and it's not hard to see how he could easily form the will to overpower the Jenova traces within him.
He had her powers through his cell injection, but he was also working off Mako power and the Knowledge gained through the Lifestream. He also possessed a very strong will, as mentioned several times in the game. His insanity remained, though now it was more manageable and he had a plan. To be a God. To do this he would summon Meteor, create a wound and sit in the middle of it, absorbing energy, much like he did in the North Crater. Obviously, it wasn't enough for him. He needed a great upsurgence of energy.
Now, in my mind, Jenova is just another tool for Sephiroth to reach his goals. Jenova possessed the power to influence the minds of others and change her form. Therefore, it's not impossible that Sephiroth could take hold of someone (a "clone" for example) mentally and utilize the shape-changing power to create a walking, talking image of himself to do as he needs, since he's pretty much held up in the crater.
That's just one way to look at it.
I think the Sephiroth that you see for the first half of the game was one of the guys in the black capes but a fully devolped clone with Sephiroth's fighting ability.
This can be very confusing as there were two people who looked the same as Sephiroth, I have never really understanded it because the Sephiroth clone had Sephiroth's real sword which is odd, in the game it did say that the Sephiroth clone was carrying Jenova around, the clone was not Jenova also.
a new theory. maybe a loada trout but i think its possible.
now we all know that seph was never injected with jenova cells (his mother was). and through genetics and all that stuff sephiroth would have inherited the powers/strengths of his mother and father (even if they were put in them artifically).
so seph has jenovas powers and strengths from his mom. this would mean hes hard but he has no jenova cells in him. so jenova unable to control him (this is probablly the wrong wording but)* struck a deal with him to rule the earth as gods side by side.
(from the * another possibilty) she chased him around the planet trying to find him to kill him and end his reing before he summoned meteor and everything including jenova died. however in north crater jus before the seph fights you find her but she hates you aswell as seph (this time for having her cells) so she tries to kill you but fails. then you see seph fight him and happy ever after.
jenova diguised herself as seph so that she could be left alone by everyone (because sephs really hard) if she needed to know something she could jus get someone to tell her (because noones gonna argue with sephiroth the greatest ever warrior) and also to manipulate cloud and co (check back for why shed need to do this.) and also so that if anyone seen her they would think it was seph and tell others this therefore making it seem like she isnt involved.
does that make it clear enuf as to why she takes sephs form?
also sephs wearing clothes at the end. well duh of course he is. altho he werent wearin anythin in the mako dont mean he dont have em with him. coz when u fight him (very last time) hes wearin trousers. and he went into the mako in clothes. i dont think hes jus gonna strip off coz hes drownin in lifestream. also if they shown u seph in his b-day suit u wudnt know hu it was. it could jus be an old guy with long hair (the graphics are trout so go figure.)
also to find out if jenova got out of her cell jus check if the door breaks out or in (out=jenova got out. in=someone (probablly cloud) broke her out
ive probablly left summit out so tell me if non makes sense.
Your theory goes a bit wrong at the start because Hojo injected the Jenova cells into Lucireas(sp?) woam and into Sephiroth, Jenova was not Sephiroth's mother, Jenova is a monstor that shinra drawed cells out of to give members of soldier, Sephiroth thought Jenova was his mother but in fact Lucirea(sp?) was.
Jenova is not male nor female just a monster created by shinra, Sephiroth weared clothes in the end fight because it was more of a dream thing even though it was the real Sephiroth Cloud fights.
Thank you, Captain!!!
Finally, someone whose opinion supports something I've always wanted to believe...
But really, the only way to know for sure would be for someone to ask Hironobu Sakaguchi and the other writers. If they even considered FFVII's plot to the same extent that we have...
Jenova is actually an alien, as in the reference to the 'Crisis from the Sky'. It was the thing that led to the end of the cetra sans Ifalna and Aeris. It was not created by the Shinra.Quote:
Jenova is not male nor female just a monster created by shinra, Sephiroth weared clothes in the end fight because it was more of a dream thing even though it was the real Sephiroth Cloud fights.
Right, Sephiroth's Mate, your theory is flawed from the get-go. As Zeikfried said, Sephiroth was injected directly in the womb.
And Big D, I bet the the writers didn't consider the story to the depth we, the fans, have. We'd all probably be surprised how they would react to our theories and such. They'd most likely think we were all crazy and try to flee.
I'm convinced that the story we are told is it. There is no hidden or underlying meaning. We are meant to beleive what we are told, speculating and theorizing all these unprovable points is silly. Above all else, FFVII is a story told to us. What we see in the conclusion of each story point is it. There is no more. Everything that is meant to be revealed...is.
All these unsupported "Cloud was experimented on since birth" and "Jenova was the real villain" are simply not concluded in the course of the story. We learn indefinately how Cloud came t obe considered a Sephiroth "clone" and we are told continuously to the very end of the story that it's Sephiroth we are after.
And that's all there is to it, really.
All hail Captain, the voice of reason amidst the babble of confusion, doubt and Raistlin's conspiracy theories.:D
That's the real Sephiroth. Square just didn't feel like making a new, shirtless polygon model just for that one scene.Quote:
Originally posted by Big D
...even right at the end, before the fight against Bizarro-Sephiroth, the party is faced by the same 'form' of Sephiroth that they were chasing all along. Why continue the pretense? Why bother with it at all?
I always have believed Jenova was the main villain.
Yes, Sephiroth could have fought against her influence. I believe that he did not for one reason only: he believed everything she said.
He went insane when he found out that he was "created." He believed Jenova was his mother. He was vulnerable. Jenova talked to him in his deluded state, filling his head with lies. One of the books, I believe, mentions that the scientists at first speculated that Jenova was an Ancient. She told him that too, and that he must help kill the "traitors," which was basically everyone else on the Planet.
Which is the reason Sephiroth didn't "snap out of it" when Jenova was killed. She didn't need to mentally control Sephiroth with her powers; he believed that she was his mother, and he'd obey.
You just proved my point. Indeed, Sephiroth was insane and did think Jenova to be his mother. But you stated it perfectly. Even after Jenova was killed, Sephiroth was still crazy. He was driven by his insane thoughts that Jenova wanted him to take over the Planet for her. Whether she "tells" him this or not is unknown, but it's not alluded to in the story.Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
Which is the reason Sephiroth didn't "snap out of it" when Jenova was killed. She didn't need to mentally control Sephiroth with her powers; he believed that she was his mother, and he'd obey.
So basically, in the end, Sephiroth was working under his own power whilst utilizing Jenova's power to achieve, as he percieved it, "their" goals.
thats what ive been sayin but i jus dont think jenova was pullin all the strings. i think seph was doin the thinkin behind the ideas of his own will
oh and something else has been brught to my attention by a friend which has confused me profoundly.
hojo and lucrecia are sephiroths real parents. but sephiroth is about 26 or something like that (according to what cloud says in the lifestream) but vincent was having an affair with lucrecia whilst she was married to hojo. (thats why he was shot and experimented on) howver in the manual it says vincents age as 30 (or there abouts)
so if seph is 26 his parents would be around 50 at the least. but this means that vince was having an affair with a woman 2? year old woman at the age of 4.
now im really confused. but anyway my mate due to this reckons their was a third seph somewhere (other than the jenova one and lucrecia and hojos son) and that really lost me as he was unable to explain this fully to me.
so if someone understands please explain this in nice small understandable steps for me
Vincent was 26 when he was put away after uncovering Hojo's affair with Lucrecia (who was never married to anyone, by the way). Thirty years went by before Cloud woke Vincent up, but since his body didn't age while he was confined, his age is still listed as 26 even though it's technically more like 56. Sephiroth must be about 30, since it was thirty years ago that Hojo and Lucrecia had the affair that got Vincent put away.
I think Sephiroth did everything in the game willingly. However, no, I did not prove your point, Captain. You think Sephiroth was just using Jenova; I believe he deffered to her.
He was still insanse, which allowed Jenova to manipulate his mind. Manipulate, not control, convincing him of lies.
Why else would he fully believe Jenova was his mother, the others were "traitors to the Cetra/Planet," and then go to immediately free his "mother?" Someone must've been telling him something.
the manual says vince to be thirty not 26 and also cloud says seph to be about 26 and not thirty. also you say thirty years ago lucrecia had an affair with hojo and that got vincent put away. however im pretty sure it was vince and lucrecia that had the affair.
Well, my manual says Vincent is 27, though Kishi pretty much cleared up why it said that.
And Cloud only said that Sephiroth was 'older' than he is, and he was only a boy when he told Tifa he wanted to be just like him. So if Sephiroth was old enough to be in the news back then, he'd be quite a bit older now.
You seem to forget that Sephiroth got all his info from somewhat misleading reports in the Shin-Ra Mansion basement. No one had to tell him anything. After he made the connection that he was created, he researched it and the conclusion he reached drove him mad, to the point where he beleived that the creature known as "Jenova" was his real mother. Aside from that, Sephiroth was told that someone named Jenova was his mother long before he went insane. He mentions this as soon as they reach Nibelheim in the flashback.Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
I think Sephiroth did everything in the game willingly. However, no, I did not prove your point, Captain. You think Sephiroth was just using Jenova; I believe he deffered to her.
He was still insanse, which allowed Jenova to manipulate his mind. Manipulate, not control, convincing him of lies.
Why else would he fully believe Jenova was his mother, the others were "traitors to the Cetra/Planet," and then go to immediately free his "mother?" Someone must've been telling him something.
So a combination of half-truths and misleading old reports is what drove Sephiroth. Not some mental urging from Jenova herself. He reached his own conclusions about himself, why Cloud and Humanity were "traitors" and why he considered Jenova his mother. Then he set out to claim what he thought was his, since he thought Jenova was an ancient (misleading reports) he also construed that he was one too (also not true).
Why would Sephiroth be in charge? It doesn't make sense.
Jenova is a millenia old super powerful alien being. Capable of surviving journeys through space, crashing into planets, being hacked to pieces. She has the ability to change her form, she can survive as one being despite being spread across the planet. She has the power to manipulate people all over the world simultaneously.
Sephiroth is quite strong, and only because he has a tiny amount of Jenova in him.
Why would Jenova in any way do what Sephiroth wanted her to?
[q=Phoenix 17]Why would Jenova in any way do what Sephiroth wanted her to?[/q]
I don't think Jenova was under Sephiroth's control, but liekwise I don't believe that she was directly controlling him, either.
Jenova spent years imprisoned by Shinra, was dismembered and used for experiments. She was obviously incapacitated.
I stand by my belief that Sephiroth thought he was acting of his own free will, that he was doing what he thought would give him and his mother the power they craved. He was going to make himself into a 'God', not her. A combination of Jenova's malevolence and power, combined with human greed and pride, and the brief but mistaken belief in his Cetra superiority meant that Sehpiroth was one of the more dangerous threats.
Most of Jenova's power came only from illusions and psychic manipulation.
C: Why would Sephiroth call the others "traitors to the Planet" then? He kept referring to Jenova as "mother" and "such is the power of Jenova." He sounds and acts like he is deferring to something.
There are two answers to the question: why did Sephiroth say HE was going to become a god, not Jenova:
1. That "Sephiroth" as Jenova in the first place, or
2. This is pure speculation, but it's interesting: Jenova hated the Planet, hated those who kept her encased for 2000 years. Why would she bother to try to rule it? So, she wants it destroyed. She convinced Sephiroth to summon Meteor with a tale of becoming a god, which will destroy the world and all life on it, not giving a damn about Sephiroth.
I'd say we're definitely now facing a situation where the players have given more notice to the plot than its own writers and uncovered some things called plot holes.
Maybe not plot holes per se, but rather things which aren't completely clarified in the game itself. Just as Cloud and co. wouldn't have had a full grasp of the subtleties and intricacies of what they were dealing with, we too aren't provided with a complete overview of exactly what is going on. Unless we were told the story from the perspective of Jenova and Sephiroth, with full accounts of their thoughts and intentions, it'd be difficult to say exactly what happened with any certainty.
Speculation is interesting, but with a plot as complex as FFVII's it could be difficult to arrive at any firm conclusions, beyond what is specifically in the plot, or can be reliably inferred from it.
An absence of answers doesn't necessarily constitute a presence of holes.
Not necessarily, but probably, I think.
I'm just glad that these threads aren't banned like in the FFVIII forum.
To try and stop this becoming a discussion about a discussion, Raistlin I think your second point was actually quite a good idea. I also thought you were one of the people argueing AGAINST your first point :)
Anyone gonna try and explain why Jenova would let Seph push her around?
I've never thought of Jenova as being 'pushed around', but... she was sealed inside solid rock for two thousand years, then sealed inside a tank and used for experiments. Samples of her cells were extracted. Finally, her own 'son' cut off her head. Being dismembered like that is going to leave anyone feeling a little out of sorts.
I think Jenova was still in control of herself; Sephiroth was doing all kinds of nasty things in order to help her, but perhaps not because he was completely under her control. She needed his help - he was still relatively intact, so he could summon Meteor, control the 'Clones' and bring them to the Reunion, etc.
Yes, I think Sephiroth acted of his own free will. However, I think he deferred to his "mother" for answers.
I still think Jenova convinced Sephiroth to summon Meteor. That still leaves one question: why Sephy? It might have been because Jenova could not absorb the Lifestream like Sephiroth could, or that the "Sephiroth" you were chasing around was actually Jenova, or even that this was some mass-plot of Jenova's to ultimately destroy the Planet. Meh, who knows?
You guys are giving me a migraine @.@
I actually have a theory of my own:
The game wasn't given a stellar translation. Certain specific lines come to mind...... "Hmmm, so that's how you fooled them". I think what's likely is that certain subtleties were lost in translation, so details that were clear in the original story were ambiguous or not present in the English translation. Of course, this is just conjecture, but you gotta admit, it makes sense when you consider the various gramatical errors and the sentences that seemed completely non-sequitor.
I go along with the fact that bad translations added to the confusing plotline in some cases. I do think though that it was probably delibrately done so people like us would discuss and talk about it more and come up with the small plot details ourselves.
Duh...gee boss now im really confused: -
1) first of all raistlin stop talkin to people that aint there, it gettin worryin, there aint noone with the initials TC
2) jenova is weaker than sephiroth. he managed to cut off her head (altho she mightnt have been able to put up a fight) and hes much harder than her in fights. also he does posses the power to change his form whenever he like hence why you gotta fight him three times at the end.
3) whoever said sephiroth got all his informaton from dodgy/halftruth reports. thats a bloody good point.
4) jenova had no way of comunicating with sephiroth she was never awake/concious when near him. she was always out cold beit from chemicals or mako but whatever.
5) also kinda pointless and probabally wrong but has anyone thought that maybe she was so weak because the lifestream was slowly killing her while she was frozen in it for several thousand years. which is what happened to the clones (the mako in them destoyed thejenova cells leadin to their mentalness) (that was said in a thread a while ago youll have to check it yourself i cant find it.)
Okay Bizarro and Safer are a direct result of Jenova bonding with Sephiroth after the Synthesis battle. I've only said it a few times as a theory, but now I think there isn't any other explanation. Massive amounts of Jenova in a short time can produce mutations as shown in Hojo. Just how much is debatable, but irrelevant for now.
Noone in the game exhibits the psychic abilities, or the mutating abilities, people claim are Sephiroths, other than when Sephiroth appears to use them. SEPHIROTH ISN'T SPECIAL, he has no reason for these abilities other than Jenova.
Jenova can survive in parts, she can control people, she can change her appearance, she has unbelievable strength. Sephiroth has nothing, he is not stronger than Jenova, he has no reason to be, he never shows any reason to be stronger than her, he certainly doesn't have ridiculously advanced psychic powers purely from coincidence.
jus chill dude
if u believe that fine, but i dont i still think seph was the brans and brawn for the operations even if he did have some jenova cells
I'm perfectly chilled, and I appreciate you are entitled to your opinion, but if you post something in a discussion then don't take people to be angry if they list facts oposing you.
ive heard from a friend that the dudes in black cloaks may have been sephiroths however they all started to mess up and become all trouty however the one that was created differently (the one we all came to know and and love) survived and became known for all the skills shown in all of the clones. this meant sephiroth was given all the credit of the others and became famous for it.
please elaborate if u can
First off, SM, "TC" is "Captain," and I just added a T at the beginning for the hell-of-it. *goes to edit*
Now, as Phoenix said: Sephiroth is NOT special. He is a normal human being who was injected with Jenova cells since before he was born. All the powers that he had as he grew was the direct result of Jenova cells. Sephiroth's ONLY special powers came from Jenova cells. If only a small amount of her cells can make a human that powerful, how powerful must Jenova herself be?
The black-cloaked dudes you find throughout disc one are, indeed, Sephiroth clones. It has been speculated that the Sephiroth you chase throughout disc one was a successful Sephiroth clone, but there's also two other theories with just as much proof(if not more) to back it up.
Yeah I think Raistlin made my point better than I did.
It's unlikely that what you chase is a Sephiroth clone, for one very important reason. It looks like Sephiroth, pretty much end of story.
Woah.... You guyz got some good ideas 'bout Sephiroth. I always thought that the Sephiroth who stole the black materia was like a projection of Sephiroth or his consciousness. Since he said I have no more use for this body, I always thought that he meant he's not going to project himself anymore, since Cloud was already so close to the reuinon. God this is all giving me a headache:crying2:
[q=Sephy99]I always thought that the Sephiroth who stole the black materia was like a projection of Sephiroth or his consciousness.[/q]
Now where have I read this before?
Oh yeah.
[q=me]Yeah, I thought that Sephiroth created a 'manifestation' of his will in order to release Jenova and do whatever else. This power is a result of Sephiroth's Jenova cells and the time he spent in the Lifestream.
Basically, I've always believed that the Sephiroth who released Jenova, led Cloud around the world and (SPOILER) killed Aeris was, in fact, a powerful 'projection' of the real Sephiroth, who was entombed in that crystal in the North Cave. At one point it is said that Sephiroth can 'diffuse his will through the Lifestream'.
Sephiroth's powers, combined with Jenova's, allowed him to create a 'psychic shadow' which he could use to travel the world, transport Jenova, find the (SPOILER) black materia and interact with real people, all without having to leave the North Cave.
[/q]
So I'm not the only one who believes this outlandish notion... there may be something in it yet.
in realation to what big d said it could be seph controling someone elses body as a puppet
however the evidence is still more in favour of it being jenova in my opinion
I think if it was a projection, it would still be using Jenova cells to create it, just creating a physical being from thin air seems kinda far fetched.
I would go along with this theory if I thought Sephiroth was the one in control, which I very very don't
BD: it's not really that outlandish at all.
There's three main possibilities, in my mind, as to what the "Sephiroth" you chase is:
1. A successful Sephiroth clone. This one fits the plot and story better. It's the most obvious conclusion, but it lacks on the proof side.
2. Jenova. This one fits some of the elements. For one thing: Sephiroth "flies" away and drops something, and you have a fight with jenova. That "Sephiroth" being Jenova explains this much easier. Also, in the Northern Crater, with the Sephy killing all the failed clones, yet Jenova wanted to reabsord her cells(hence, the Reunion). So maybe she was absorbing her cells, and Cloud was just seeing what she wanted him to see, to keep the disguise working.
One flaw: How Jenova escaped from Shinra HQ if there was no working Sephiroth clone to help her.
3. BD's main theory, a Sephiroth manifestation. This also fits better some technical elements, such as Sephiroth going through walls/floors in the Temple of the Ancients.
Flaw: Immense amount of power to solidify manifestation, so might not really be readily believable.
Meh, there ya go.
[q=Raistlin]Flaw: Immense amount of power to solidify manifestation, so might not really be readily believable.
[/q]
Yeah, excellent point. I've been trying to think around this one somehow. Perhaps Seph was using his will to manipulate Jenova's headless (and presumably insensate) body, after it was sprung from Shinra HQ? He could use the body's powers of illusion and magic to fly, create an image/ replica of his real body, and so forth. At one point he says that he's learned to 'diffuse his will though the Lifestream', so he could probably send telepathic signals over long distances (which we know he did in controlling the Clones).
Another theory: it really IS a 'manifestation'... Sephiroth was using a 'Jenova illusion' to create an immaterial 'image' of his body, then using psychokinesis in conjunction with that illusion to manipulate swords, materia, Jenova's carcass, stuff in general.
Maybe Seph was using an 'immense amount of power' to create his manifestation... in the Temple of the Ancients, he says "I am becoming one with the Planet." Present tense. He's already begun the process, he's probably been gaining power and moving toward 'Godliness' for much the time he was in the Lifestream. That would give him a pretty decent amount of raw power.
The plot thickens... if it gets any worse, it's gonna solidify on us.
Hmm, something I recently noticed, which backs my theory (I'm sure I mentioned it somewhere) that they could infact be two seperate people who Cloud follow.
On the cargo ship, Cloud sees the Sephiroth-figure appear through the floor, to which it replies 'Who are you?', refering to Cloud. Now (as I recall) the only thing in that dialogue box was the text, with no 'name' attached to the top of it.
However later, in the Shinra basement, we meet 'Sephiroth'. It has his name attached to the dialogue box, and also he talks about remembering being in the basement, and also his music is playing, for the first time since the Kalm flashback.
Maybe this really is looking too much... or maybe Square intended it so that we could refer to the Sephiroth music as identifying with the 'real', or at least the memorable (one with his memories) Sephiroth.
A side note, I can think of three occurances where we meet Sephiroth and his music isn't playing: the cargo ship, Ancient Capital and at the Jenova Reuinion. Which is also the locations of all the Jenova fights, thus presuming that, in accordance to that theory, that this is Jenova.
That is a plausable theory, although it doesn't really go to explain much so I'll just keep it in mind till it's needed.
Again, why do people think Sephiroth would have any control over Jenova, there is absolutely no justification for it.
I wouldn't call Jenova's escape a flaw. Although I know I know there is dispute over how she did it, there are plenty of ideas for a solution.
Jenova Rebirth: Interesting theory, but, as Pheonix says, it doesn't really explain much. You chasing two Sephiroths isn't the most believable theory, but I'll think about it.
Big D: As Pheonix said, I don't believe Sephiroth controlled Jenova at all. Rather, if I'm arguing for the support of the manifestation theory, then I'd say he absorbed some of the power from the mako he was encased in for five years. Remember "Sephiroth's" plan? To absorb mako/Lifestream energy at its source. Maybe he could've absorbed some of the power from such a prolonged exposure. That also helps to explain how he was able to summon Meteor.
Where has everyone gotten the idea of the one winged angel Sephiroth to be called "Safer" Sephiroth. No where in the game it says that. If you press select while fighting him it simply says "Sephiroth"
I don't get some people. Like some people call the Gamecube "GCN" instead of just "GC" where did the "N" come from?
'Safer' is rumoured to have something to do with 'Seraph' - an angel of the highest order. Seraphim have six wings, just like 'Safer Sephiroth' would if you discounted his abnormal 'dark' wing.
As for 'GCN'... 'N' stands for Nintendo.
Possibly.
I guess it has the same point as PSX with the extra 'X' :/Quote:
Originally posted by Sephiroth88
I don't get some people. Like some people call the Gamecube "GCN" instead of just "GC" where did the "N" come from?
And, after thinking about it, the 'other' Sephiroth could've broken Jenova out of her confinement, where she then takes on his form maybe.
Then again...
If we stick to the idea that Hojo released Cloud, it maybe plasuable that Hojo released Jenova also, for the very same reason...
Blarg.
Considering that Jenova's tank has been ripped, hacked and slahed to peices doesn't really fit with Hojo letting her loose. She was obviously forcibly extracted from that tank.
Sephiroth needed Cloud. Though Hojo had labled him a failure years before, I think it's safe to say that Sephiroth knew that Cloud turned out quite successful and could be a valuable asset to his cause, hence, after releasing Jenova, he set Cloud loose as well.
I'm all for the "Manifestation" theory as far as Sephiroth goes. But I still think that Sephiroth's unique way of being injected with Jenova cells and Mako (before birth) coupled with all those years he spent in the Lifestream could easily leave him more powerful than Jenova. There's just very little to suggest we aren't after Sephiroth the whole time.
My money's still on Cloud opening the tank.
We know you don't chase the real Sephiroth in the game. We know Jenova's power. We know the whole point of the reunion is to get Jenova back together. As far as I can see, there's very little to suggest you ARE chasing Sephiroth.
I still doubt the manifestation theory, creating solid mass out of will? Kinda hard to believe.
Cloud opening the tank? Not even remotely eluded to in the story whatsoever. Especially considering he's locked up at the time. It's just not at all even suggested.Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix 17
My money's still on Cloud opening the tank.
We know you don't chase the real Sephiroth in the game. We know Jenova's power. We know the whole point of the reunion is to get Jenova back together. As far as I can see, there's very little to suggest you ARE chasing Sephiroth.
I still doubt the manifestation theory, creating solid mass out of will? Kinda hard to believe.
So you can believe that it's possible for a company to drain the life blood of a planet and convert it to electric power, that an ancient space alien allows people to increase their strength 100-fold just by injecting themselves with her cells and that your average Joe can call upon the natural powers of fire, ice, lightning and earth and mighty mythical beasts to aid in his journey.... yet considering an obviously super-powerful-on-his-way-to-Godlihood-uniquely-created-being can will a physical representation of himself into existance is difficult to swallow?
....Right.
As I mentioned before, I infer from the ripped-up walls that Jenova escaped of its own strength.Quote:
Originally posted by Captain
Considering that Jenova's tank has been ripped, hacked and slahed to peices doesn't really fit with Hojo letting her loose. She was obviously forcibly extracted from that tank.
No. "Safer Sephiroth" is a mistranslation of Sepher Sephiroth, which translates to "The Book of Numbers," which itself ties into the Kabbalistic origin of Sephiroth's name, which you can study here.Quote:
Originally posted by Big D
'Safer' is rumoured to have something to do with 'Seraph' - an angel of the highest order. Seraphim have six wings, just like 'Safer Sephiroth' would if you discounted his abnormal 'dark' wing.
Cloud opening the tank has been discussed already in this thread, and there's plenty to suggest it.
Yep, thats how crazy a solid manifistation sounds.
Sephiroth a super-powerful-on-his-way-to-Godlihood-uniquely-created-being? Hardly. He's a bit strong. Not a LOT strong, a bit strong. He wasn't created, he just has more concentrated Jenova in him, his uniqueness solely comes from Jenova having more effect on him.
Jenova getting out herself sounds far more reasonable than Cloud letting her out. Cloud letting her out is even less believable than Hojo letting her out, which is not hinted at in the game at all.
And, Phoenix: Captain was purposely exagerating a bit, btw.
Other people and myself have already given evidence as to why it could be Cloud, noone has given evidence it could be Hojo. He could have been involved, but he didnt release her.
That was in a place beyond exageration if that was how it was intended. It would also be easy to misinterpret given people are giving Sephiroth more credit than an ACTUAL near god.
I like captain's point here. The reality we're discussing is not our own. It's a world that has higher technology than ours, and an X factor called magic that doesn't even exist in reality. In short, even if it seems unlikely, it's not impossible. Then again, that's just my philosophy of life in general :)
Jenova came down from "the heavens" a while ago, at the North Crater, causing the crater. She tricked a race as powerul as the Cetra into thinking she was their dead ancestors, then wiped them out - or close enough to it.
Does that not show how powerful Jenova is, and possibly how she got herself out.
But the question remains, why did she use Sephiroth as her puppet? And How could she do this being that Sephiroth was killed/frozen in Mako 5 years ago?
Well, she didn't chose Cloud, because he could resist her will - some of the time. At the start of the game when he blows up the reactor with Barret he freaks out - he is going against her will. The same can be said for when Jenova tries to get Cloud to kill Aeris, but doesn't succeed.
Sephiroth on the other hand, is a perfect puppet. He was driven insane by trying to discover the truth, and therefore has his own weird ideas about becoming a god. But, like I say, how could she use him after what happened? Before it happened, Sephiroth was a legendary swordsman. In the Nibelheim flashback, he totally outmatched Cloud's skill. In the first couple of battles at the end with him, he certainly lives up to this - but he is combined with Jenova in both. Jenova is defeated in the Safer Sephiroth battle, leaving Sephiroth on his own. Yet in the final battle, he is destroyed with ease - random encounters are often harder that that! Why did the legendary elite member of SOLDIER Sephiroth become weak?
He had to have died 5 years ago - and this is one of the "clones" in black hoods being manipulated by Jenova. Jenova makes everyone think that it is Sephiroth(remember what she did to the Cetra). The Black Hood - who I know nothing about, it could have been a member of SOLDIER or it could have been a failed experiment by Hojo, obviously cannot match up to Cloud. Yet, Jenova manipulates it into thinking exactly like Sephiroth would, with all his memories and thoughts. Proof? well, not much, but there are certain lines, like this one from Aeris's death. I assume people who haven't got that far are no longer reading after 6 pages of stuff they had no idea about, so no spoiler tags
Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are...
Jenova: Because, you are...... a puppet.
Correct me if I am wrong, but that is Jenova's only line in the game. Why does she finish "Sephiroth"'s sentence? We are made to think she is calling Cloud a puppet, due to what "Sephiroth" says, but is she really telling Black Hooded man he is a puppet?
There simply is no evidence suggesting that Cloud released Jenova. Asking questions like, "Why would this happen when he is in this location at this time for this reason" etc. is silly. This is a story. Stories tend to allow for great coincidences to happen because otherwise we'd end up bored to death waiting for something to happen. Would you rather the game make you sit in the cells for days or weeks while we wait for some event to occur to progress the story? I mean come on.Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix 17
Other people and myself have already given evidence as to why it could be Cloud, noone has given evidence it could be Hojo. He could have been involved, but he didnt release her.
That was in a place beyond exageration if that was how it was intended. It would also be easy to misinterpret given people are giving Sephiroth more credit than an ACTUAL near god.
You all seem to forget that this isn't reality. This is a story. Within this story is a plot, a plot which we are SHOWN, in time, complete with story-progressing coincidences. The info we get at the END of the game is the info we need to draw conclusions. There is NOTHING conclusive to the story that says Jenova was in charge, there is NOTHING conclusive to the story that Cloud let Jenova out. The story itself, up until the last THREE battles show us Sephiroth. They even have an elaborately orchestrated song complete with chorus speaking his NAME over and over.
We are told in the building that it is Sephiroth (or a reasonable facsimile) that killed the President. If this "Sephiroth" could kill everyone on the upper 4 floors of the building and leave behind so much damage, WHY would it need Cloud to release Jenova? Even if it IS Jenova and not a Sephiroth manifestation, with that power WHY would it need Cloud to release it from such a simplistic tank? If you wanna nitpick, Cloud couldn't even lift a peice of metal off Cid WITH HELP, so how could he possibly release Jenova from that tank?
We are never explicitly TOLD that Jenova is doing much of anything. All we hear about through 80% of the game is SEPHIROTH. Everythign else anyone says is mere speculation and twisting every little nitpick of a fact to turn in their favor. But the dialogue and hard facts of the story itself, written out is what brings me to MY conclusions. Not speculation.
That is my final thought on this matter, unless someone reveals a more sensible stream of facts. But I think the story, like EVERY story, speaks for itself.
Ever heard of plot twists? How dull a story would it be if the plot was. Sephiroth is bad, you kill him.
The tank has again been discussed already, I'm not gonna argue it again, and even if Jenova got out herself it still shows shes the one in charge.
You only fight Sephiroth ONCE, and he is completely useless. Every single major plot fight involves Jenova or Shinra. The whole point of the first disc and a half is Jenova getting back together.
And to add on to what Phoenix just said, the only reason that the plot seems to be focused on Sephiroth is that the point of view is pretty much only seen through the eyes of Cloud and his party. Cloud is so blindly chasing Sephiroth that he and the rest of the party kind of overlook everything going on around them. So unless the player of the game is looking to read inbetween the lines of the story and play close attention to detail, it will easily seem that it is nothing but a chase for Sephiroth.
Psychotic: Sephiroth didn't die 5 years ago. He traveled through the underground mako streams to the North Crater. What you're saying is pure speculation.
Phoenix: Jenova letting herself out only needs on assumption. Hell, even Hojo letting Jenova out only needs one assumption. Some random MP letting Jenova out only needs one assumption. However, Cloud letting Jenova out needs a whole host of assumptions.
Captain: Rude is right on the Jenova thing. The Sephiroth you chase(whether Jenova in disguise, a Sephiroth clone, or a Sephiroth manifestation) is subservient to Jenova throughout. Even in the Reactor Mission, when it's the real Sephiroth, he refers to Jenova as "mother" and that he must "free his mother." How could he be in control?
Damn I was determined not to argue this again this thread.
Hojo letting Jenova out requires one ridiculous assumption and one normal assumption. A random MP letting her out requires three assumptions. Jenova letting herself out requires one big assumption and one normal assumption. Cloud letting Jenova out requires one assumption.
That's off the top of my head, I really don't wann start repeating myself after that arguement had died down.
Okay, for the last time I am going to summarize the different ways Jenova was released from the Shinra building, and explain which seems the most logical.
(1) A successful Sephiroth Clone or a manifestation of Sephiroth released Jenova. This seems to be an okay explanation because Palmer says "he saw Sephiroth with his own eyes".
Flaws:
(a) There is no explanation given as to why this exact time was chosen for the clone to release Jenova. Also, why the heck would Shinra allow a successful Sephiroth clone to run free? Don't you think if Hojo created a successful clone, Shinra would use that clone to their advantage? And even if Jenova took control of this clone, there's never any mention of a clone that escaped. And I think something as big as that happening would not be able to remain behind closed doors.
(b) Why is Cloud's cell open? Someone suggested that Jenova/Sephiroth could be a valuable asset, so they released Cloud while killing all the other Shinra soldiers. Okay, so how did the Sephiroth clone know that cloud was in that cell? Is the clone psychic? Not only that, why wouldn't the Sephiroth clone kill the other party members in the other cells, or at least kill Tifa? Jenova has no mind control over them, so why would she need them alive? She doesn't, which means that neither Jenova or the Sephiroth clone opened Cloud's cell. Also, the explanation that Cloud's cell was simply opened to advance the plot or so we wouldn't die of boredom in a video game is a weak and unacceptable answer. You could answer many questions in Final Fantasy VII with "cuz it's a video game and it doesn't have to make sense."
(2) Hojo released Jenova from the cell. The way in which the cell was opened pretty much answers this question, unless Hojo went on a spaz attack and trashed the door. I'm sure somebody would notice though.
(3) Jenova broke free from the cell. In my opinion, this is the second most probable. When Cloud looked into the cell, Jenova communicated to Cloud or something to that extent(the seizure Cloud has). Maybe this interaction between them brought Jenova back to a conscious level and thus escaped.
Flaw: Read (1)(b) above. Still no explanation as to why Cloud's cell was opened. Whether it be a Sephiroth Clone or Jenova, the other party members would have been killed.
(4) Cloud released Jenova from the cell, with Hojo releasing Cloud from the prison cell. Unlike the other theories, this one has no flaws. The pieces of the puzzle fit well for this theory. Jenova communicated with Cloud, commanding him to release her. Hojo unlocked Cloud's cell, curious to see whether or not Jenova still had control over Cloud. Cloud, not mentally stable and not in control of his actions, unconsiously uses his sword to slash open the tank and release Jenova, kills other soldier's in the process. Jenova takes on the form of Sephiroth, and murders President Shinra. Hojo leaves Shinra to avoid suspicion in an extremely messy(and debatable) matter.
Now, I await my opposition.........
How does Jenova letting herself out require more than one assumption? It only requires one: that she is able to get herself out.
Hojo requires one assumption: that he let Jenova out.
I admit an MP requires one other assumption, but that's it.
Cloud letting Jenova out requires:
1. That Cloud could get out of the cell himself.
2. That Cloud could open the tank Jenova has(the same extra assumption required for the MP).
3. That Jenova made Cloud forget(which she has never done before)
4. And that the camera doesn't follow Cloud everywhere(which is the most ridiculous of them all. The view only leaves Cloud when he can't move in Mideel).
EDIT:
No flaws, eh? No, just a whole freakin' host of assumptions.
Assumptions are better than flaws. Flaws immediately turn down a theory. As the great Sherlock Holmes once said,"When considering a problem, one must first eliminate all solutions which have flaws and can be proven incorrect. And thus, the remaining solution, as improbable as it seems, must be the correct answer."Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
No flaws, eh? No, just a whole freakin' host of assumptions.
At one point, the voice in Cloud's head tells him, 'It's started moving..." referring, I believe, to Jenova, who was just about to break out of Shinra's confinement at that time.
I believe that Jenova may have broken herself out of the tank - after all, look at the damage to the building. She then may have needed Sephiroth's guidance in order to navigate the outside world. She did have no head, which would make it somewhat difficult. So Sephiroth (or his manifestation, if you believe that theory) picked her up and carried her off after nailing President Shinra to the floor with his Masamune.
As for the timing of Jenova's escape/ release? It may have something to do with the Reunion. There were many members of SOLDIER in the Shinra building. Cloud, also, had been drawn there by fate - or was it a more powerful compulsion? Anyway, a lot of carriers of Jenova's cells were gathered in the one place. That may have given her the strength she needed to break out, in order to head for the North Cave to complete the Reunion.
Now, about Cloud's door:
If the door was opened so that Cloud could escape and free Jenova, then Tifa would have heard the considerable ruckus going on outside. Don't forget that Jenova's rampage tore huge sheets of metal walls, which makes a fair racket.
It's only fair to assume that the door was opened after Jenova had left.
Notice how the dead guard isn't surrounded by that red goo, and there's no heavy structural damage to the walls near him? This suggests, to me, that he (barely) survived Jenova's onslaught, and later crawled to the only people left alive on the floor - Cloud and co. He needed help. He'd have been too badly injured to think of, or implement a better plan; he couldn't take the stairs because that's the way Jenova's trail led. Going to the elevator would've required going a long way, past innumerable escaped monsters. So I figure that he staggered back to his post - the cell wing - and unlocked Cloud's door before stumbling to his death at the end of the corridor. By this reasoning, the door wasn't opened until after Jenova had left. Cloud and Tifa wouldn't have been woken by the noise of the fighting.(I know the team could easily whisper from one cell to the next, but it's fair to assume that the cells would have their own ventilation system, which would easily conduct sound from one room to the next, but not to the corridors outside).
Just another strange theory from me, but it fitsthe facts fairly well, without suggesting any deep conspiracies involving Hojo's deception, Cloud's mindlessness, or the unspeakable vengeance of Sephiroth's long-lost assistant under-secretary.
*Waits for Phoenix 17 and Raistlin to spot the holes, which are probably perfectly obvious except I've somehow missed them*
Think I'll go person by person.
Storm we seem to agree in almost every department, except that a clone has no reason to look like Sephiroth.
Big D, that theory is in my opinion the second most likely. All I have to say is that the guard not being damaged as much can be explained much easier by simply Cloud killing him, and I think the timing is much better explained by Cloud. As for hearing, well given there's no sound we could all decide different ways sound could work in the cells to fit our theories.
Other than the needing Sephiroth's help, I'd follow this theory, if I didn't think Cloud explained things with less coincidence.
.......Raistlin. Although I think Storm explained all your points a few minutes before you posted, I take your edit to mean you stand by your arguements.
Jenova- the timing is insane, the door is pointless.
Hojo- believing Hojo did it requires so much imagination I'm not even gonna try.
Cloud. Getting out of the cell has to be explained no matter what, this theory EXPLAINS it.
Cloud opening the tank requires no real thought, he's basically as strong as Seph, and if under Jenova's control...
Cloud was asleep, do you ever watch Cloud sleep? The only time you don't watch Cloud is when he isn't in control of himself. You don't watch anyone after Disc two for a while, because nothing happens, and the designers didn't want you to know.
Edit: Okay Big D I was too tempted by that challenge so I checked back. Other than Sephiroth helping (which is the point of the thread really, and I've tried to stop this becoming about the tank again), why would the guard crawl to Cloud(if I remember the layout right), turn around and crawl back towards Jenova?
Why doesn't the camera follow Cloud? That's a flaw. What about the damage around Jenova's container? That's a flaw. How did Cloud get out? That's a flaw. If he broke out, why isn't there similar damage to the cell door? That's a flaw.
Jenova getting out herself has one assumption. No flaws.
Jenova did not have to open Cloud's door though. It could have been opened by that dead MP outside who was running from Jenova. It doesn't really matter, anyways.
So I somewhat agreed with D on this, but I think the soldier tried to open the cell door while fully alive, and then was killed right after.
Indeed.
Why would Jenova go to all the trouble of manipulating Cloud while he was asleep, helping him sneak out of his cell, erasing his memory, (preventing the camera following him), and then getting him back to his cell after releasing her? I mean, if she wanted to keep it secret, as those assumptions imply, the she'd have remembered to shut the door behind him so that he wouldn't know anything had happened. An open door is usually a pretty good sign that something's up; closing it is a surefire way to prevent your 'puppet' from finding out that something is amiss.
Well, Cloud was supposed to find something amiss, I guess. Jenova was manipulating him.
But the fact remains that if Cloud had the ability to open the cell door, he'd have done it before they all fell asleep. There's many more flaws, which leads to more assumptions, to believe that Cloud released Jenova.
I don't think Jenova opened the cell, either. As I said, I believe it was the soldier, running from Jenova. He died just as he was opening the door, and didn't get the chance to go through.
Raistlin, I have a few questions.
Did the guard open the cell when it saw Jenova enter the room, or after he was brutally attacked?
If the soldier was brutally attacked first, then there should be a trail of blood from the soldier's position to the cell door. And if so, why wouldn't the soldier open the cell closest to him? Also, why would the soldier open the cell and then crawl back to the entrance of the prison? The soldier was injured and wanted help, so why would it crawl away from the people that would help him?
If the soldier saw Jenova and then opened the cell, how could have Cloud and Tifa not heard Jenova attack the guard? You would have to ASSUME that the cell door takes several minutes to open, but we known this is not true because Cloud opens the other two cells in a matter of seconds.
So, I think we can pretty much scratch out the idea that the soldier opened the cell.
I think Storm cleared that up pretty well.
As for the other points:
Cloud forgetting, I'm sick of explaining this, please explain why every single time I've went through this I've been wrong before asking yet again.
The damage around Jenova's container, I doubt she'd be gentle in opening the door, Cloud would only need to break the lock or use a terminal or etc.
Cloud getting out, this needs to be explained nomatter what theory you go with, there's no reason the Cloud theory should be the corner defending it.
Jenova getting herself out requires many assumptions, and explains very little.
Jenova has to be able to get out, unlikely given Shinra wouldn't put her in a container that was THAT easy to escape. If that's true or not, why did she do it at that EXACT time. I don't know how many years Jenova's been stuck in various places, she chooses the ONLY time she has access to a puppet with the ability to free her. By only, I mean ONLY. Cloud's cell was opened at random. Jenova got lost on her way to Shinra and headed for the cells first.
Well I haven't read all the topic...anyway I'm going to post
Sephiroth: The ability to change one's looks, voice,
and words, is the power of Jenova.
Every time you are about to fight Sephirot, a Jenova creature appears(jenova live,...jenova deaht) and you have to fight them. So, if Jenovas power is to change one's looks, voice and words... it could be that those creatures are the ones taking the form of Sephirot, the ones that killed Aeris. So, wile the true Sephirot was in the crater, Jenova was the one that Cloud was chasing.
... well, anyway, I'm not sure...
Storm: no matter how/when the soldier outside the cell died, there'd have to be blood leading to him. Using that as sole evidence against a theory is pretty weak.
The blood not being there is just a game mechanics error, I'd imagine.
It's possible to die of horrific injuries without bleeding all over the place. Internal wounds, blunt impact... those can be rather fatal.
There's such a huge amount of that blood-like red substance around the Shinra complex, even on the stairs where there are no corpses, so I've always assumed it was some kind of 'Jenova Juice' that oozed out of Jenova as she escaped. Perhaps it was even that fluid she was suspended in when she was in the tank? Just a thought.
It doesn't look that much like blood.
Yeah, it's not really blood, but I go on calling it that because of the title of the song that first plays when the party stumbles upon the scene--"Trail of Blood."
The ongoing debate about Sephiroth/Jenova... It seems to never come to a close.
I believe that Jenova breaks out of the Shinra mansion in the form as Sephiroth and then begins a search for the black materia. When Jenova took the form of Sephiroth, it held most of Sephiroth's intentions and opinions, (becoming a god), as well as it's own goals (becoming complete and sucking the planet of its life energy). Both Sephiroth and Jenova end up wanting to control the life stream eventually. When Sephiroth was thrown into the life stream, I remember that Jenova's head was with him. (why he cut off it's head has some unknown significance i believe....) I think they became one in a way by their similar intentions. Sephiroth's newly acquired intelligence from the life stream and Jenova's abilities as well as both their intentions of controlling the planet's energy made the 2 use eachothers abilites and knowledge to achieve their goals. They are in way one, at the the same time they are separate beings.
During the final boss battle, I noticed the difference between the forms of Jenova and Sephiroth.The battle consists of Jenova Synthesis first, then Bizzaro and Safer Sephiroth, and finally Sephiroth himself. first its Jenova alone, then a form of Sephiroth and Jenova where Jenova is more in enforcement, then a form of the two where Sephiroth is more in control, and then Sephiroth alone.
Jenova----Jenova/Sephiroth------Sephiroth/Jenova-------Sephiroth
This is all just my own speculation and i have no intention of enforcin my theory as a fact, as there are many possibilities for the famous, endless Jenova/Sephiroth theory. I wonder wut kind of criticism im in for... hahahah
[q=ThE dArK oNe]During the final boss battle, I noticed the difference between the forms of Jenova and Sephiroth.The battle consists of Jenova Synthesis first, then Bizzaro and Safer Sephiroth, and finally Sephiroth himself. first its Jenova alone, then a form of Sephiroth and Jenova where Jenova is more in enforcement, then a form of the two where Sephiroth is more in control, and then Sephiroth alone.
Jenova----Jenova/Sephiroth------Sephiroth/Jenova-------Sephiroth
[/q]
Very interesting observation there... as for the other aspects of your theory, they've been fairly well discussed, so I won't add my own unnecessary opinion.
As for Sephiroth decapitating Jenova... I believe he did that simply because he couldn't find a way to free her completely from Shinra's machine. He was probably being influenced by her at the time (after all, who in their right mind would cut off their own ''mother's'' head?); Jenova knew she could survive with her body dismembered, having Sephiroth remove her head gave at least one part of her the freedom she needed to set her fiendish plot in motion...
In the end, Sephiroth is an insane person with power. If you give an insane person power... :eep: They come to the conclusion that they should be a god. -_- -_-
A thought---- does jenova necessarily have to be controlling the sephiroth clones....what if Sephiroth himself is controlling his clones?
the orders sephiroth has can in fact be from Sephiroth....it is all speculative....
OOC: kali has hit the nail squarely on the head - "it is all speculative". Really, most of the theories in this thread are valid to a lesser or greater extent. There's nothing in the game to either fully confirm or unequivocally deny most of them... in the end, it's basically a matter of personal opinion. If one thing's certain, that is that it'd be nice to know... but unless Square or Hironobu Sakaguchi et al make some kind of official statement, we may never know. But then, that's where the fun is - trying to fill in the gaps. So many games these days are cut-and-dried, explained in one syllable words so that even the most obtuse gamer can understand them. It's great that FFVII still has us speculating, six years after its release...
That is my belief, and a theory I peddled at FFO quite some time ago. There are three other prevailant ideas people come up with in these debates, but I personally find them to be flawed.Quote:
Perhaps Seph was using his will to manipulate Jenova's headless (and presumably insensate) body, after it was sprung from Shinra HQ?
-"We are following a real Sephiroth clone" - this is clearly full of holes. A perfect genetic copy of Sephiroth, and nobody ever mentions this astounding scientific breakthrough in the game? Silly.
-"We are following a projection of Sephiroth" - On the surface this is rather sound. I myself have problems believing Sephiroth can emit a corporeal mental projection of himself from the North Crater, without there ever being a mention of such an amazing ability.
-"We are following Jenova who's pretending to be Sephiroth" - Ok...but why would she do this? Why does nobody ever mention Jenova's plot to impersonate Sephiroth? Why is there just one line of dialogue from Jenova if she's such an important part the story? Why does the entire game build up Sephiroth as the main villain? You can see I don't like the idea.
Possible problems with my theory
-"The tattoo Dio mentions." - A number one tattoo. Why the hell not? Wasn't Sephiroth the first known product of the Jenova project? It's not only Sephiroth clones who get tattoos, didn't Red XIII have one?
-"Nobobdy ever comes out and says this" - Indeed, and it's a bitch, but nobody ever directly clears up this point of the story, which is why we're discussing it. Although, if you have Yuffie in your party when defeating Jenova DEATH, then afterwards she'll say "You mean we were following THAT THING this whole time?" To me, this is a killshot to both the "clone" and "projection" theories.
-"Didn't Cloud say Sephiroth was carrying Jenova with him?" - Yes, and that is slightly damning...or is it? It's my belief that Cloud saw Sephiroth, fought Jenova, then jumped to his own conclusions. This line is it an early part of the game where we're just dipping our toes in the great lake that is FFVII's story, and I don't think we should rely on Cloud's possibly confused conclusions as gospel truth.
So there. People might disagree, but I firmly believe Sephiroth manipulated Jenova's headless body when the time for the Reunion came. He bust out of the container, assumed his own human form, freed Cloud, killed many people including President Shinra, began to gather the clones and then headed off for the Black Materia and eventually the Reunion. It took a bloody long time to work out that theory, but I'm sticking with it :)
First off, yes, every theory is speculative. It's not all speculative, however. Looking at in-game facts, it's possibel to come up with a most likely possibility.
Where in the game is it even suggested that Sephiroth controls Jenova? Jenova is more powerful than Sephiroth. Sephiroth is ONLY as powerful as he is because he was injected with cells from Jenova.
That Sephiroth is the last boss is purely game mechanics.
JJB: there are numerous reasons why Jenova might want to impersonate Sephiroth. For one, to manipulate Cloud. Two, maybe not look so conspicuous.
And, no, I usually don't listen to most of what Cloud says either. He's messed up in the head, remember.
Ok, I have my doubts about her impersonating Sephiroth to just lure Cloud, but even so that still doesn't answer the three other questions
Quote:
Why does nobody ever mention Jenova's plot to impersonate Sephiroth?
Why is there just one line of dialogue from Jenova if she's such an important part the story?
Why does the entire game build up Sephiroth as the main villain?
oK....if jenova is so powerful and great how come she was locked up in Shinra and Hojo was able to use her and her cells ....Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
Where in the game is it even suggested that Sephiroth controls Jenova? Jenova is more powerful than Sephiroth. Sephiroth is ONLY as powerful as he is because he was injected with cells from Jenova.
That Sephiroth is the last boss is purely game mechanics.
IF Gast + Hojo + Shinra can use the oh-so-great Jenova...then why can't Sephiroth?
JJB:
1. Tell me one person who could possibly mention. Only Jenova or Sephiroth would know.
2. The whole game is from Cloud's perspective, except for a small part in the second disk. She's not an important part of the story to HIS mind. only Sephiroth is. Plus, if the Jenova = Sephiroth theory is true, most of the dialogue is from Jenova.
3. See above. It's from Cloud's perspective.
Kali: Give me ONE possible explanation as to why Sephiroth could be more powerful than Jenova.
Jenova was trapped by the Cetra; she'd be vulnerable upon first recovery.
I'm sorry, but none of that's good enough for me. When there's something so majorly important in a story, there is mention of it. At the very least there is a barrage of hints, subtle or otherwise. But there is NOTHING to suggest Jenova is the true power who is controlling the situation, it's always Sephiroth, Sephiroth, Sephiroth.
It is never suggested in the game that Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth should develop INSANE psychic powers. Mind control over dozens of people, and a millenia old extremely powerful and intelligent alien, whilst entombed in mako on the other side of the planet. Most clones, are a bit strong. Notice that Sephiroth never even hints at having them before he goes crazy. Why? Because Jenova could then take control of him properly.
Hojo can't control Jenova, neither can Gast, or Shinra.
This thing about why does it look like Sephiroth. Well other than because of what Raistlin, myself and many others have said, why would it?
Let's think of Seph's train of thought:
"Okay let's think, I want to change the appearance of that thing I'm controlling on the other side of the world for no apparent reason.
Okay I'll just tell people I want it to be unnoticed if anyone asks.
Good Sephy, that whole insanity and being nearly killed hasn't made ya lose it one bit. In fact you're now mind's unrealisticly powerful. Oh wait I'm talking to myself, that can't be good...
Okay so what am I gonna make it look like? Hmm let's make it human, right now who do I know? Oh! Me! Yes I'm famous, easily recognisable and have no reason to implicate myself given everyone thinks I'm dead.
Sephy, you've done it again old boy..."
Sephiroth's manipulation and "strong will" are mentioned several times in the game. No such thing is ever said in relation to Jenova. It's entirely possible he could use this will to directly control a consciousless blob of Jenova. Why assume his regular human form? Because...it's him. It makes sense. Why would Jenova herself assume Sephiroth's form? To go unnoticed? Yeah, I think there are better forms than a FAMOUS DEAD WAR HERO to choose if you don't want to be notice. Taking on the image of Sephiroth simply to lure one clone seems pretty weak to me.
Because it's him. He'd use extraordinary psychic powers (which has no reason to posess), to create a duplicate of himself, simply because of what? Vanity? There's no logic to it at all. There were other reasons I think, but it's really a point that needs explaining by both sides.
As for strong will, Sephiroth's mind is weaker than most average people by that point. Jenova is one of the most powerful beings ever.
Jenova's body wouldn't be conciousless, given her arm is capable of independant action.
First off, answer me this: WHY is Sephiroth so extraordinarily power? There's ONE reason and ONE reason only: Jenova cells. Sephiroth's body is the combination of human genes injected with a relatively small amount of Jenova cells(small compared to Jenova herself). Jenova is a mass of 100% Jenova cells. Who do you think's more powerful?
And Jenova's manipulation is far more powerful than Sephiroth, and is stated directly in the game...by Sephiroth. It's in the North Crater, during that flashback to Nibelheim. I forget the exact quote. I'll check a script and post it.
And how are my points hold to swallow? They're more factual to in-game proof than what you're saying is.
Yeah, Jenova's raw power is greater than Sephiroth's. All of his superhuman abilities came from the Jenova cells within him. His already strong will was given greater influence and breadth due to the time he spent in the Lifestream. But Jenova was selaed in rock for two millennia, extracted, locked up, cut up, beheaded, then shut in a container of goo.
[q=P 17]Jenova's body wouldn't be conciousless, given her arm is capable of independant action.[/q]
Only a limited degree of independant action. Using magic, and saying one line of dialogue is all that the Jenova 'pieces' manage. They are quite weak and helpless compared to teh whole, really. That would explain how Sephiroth could control Jenova's headless body - she was in pieces, all over the world. Her power would be spread thin. His will was intact, and he knew how to control and direct it.
As JonJonB has pointed out, there a re no sound explanations as to why Jenova would take on Sephiroth's form in order to be 'inconspicuous'. Sephiroth, however, would either project his own 'poltergeist' image, or create that illusion with Jenova's insensate body. He wanted respect, he wanted fear, he wanted the world to know who was taking charge (or so he thought).
If Jenova is more in control of everything dats going on, then that must mean Sephiroth wants Jenova to cosume the wolrd and control the life energy. That must mean it is Jenova's desire to "become a god" and Sephiroth has no intentions except to help what he believes to be his mother. I always thought it was Sephiroth himself who wanted to become a god...
If that is so, how come the final bosses (Bizzaro and Safer) look like sephiroth? I think Jenova takes the form as Sephiroth because the two are in a way using eachother. Sure Jenova is scientifically stronger, but Sephiroth has an extremely strong will. Jenova has weakened a lot, so Sephiroth would in a way have "more control". Or not..........
Big D: why would Sephiroth control Jenova's headless body? Jenova was his mother. He obeyed her implicitly.
Tdo: There's two possible explanations for that which I've come up with:
1. Jenova, being an alien, could not absorb the Lifestream, but Sephiroth could. This is the most likely and easier to understand.
2. Jenova is out for revenge, and the whole plot of absorbing the Lifestream is just a ruse to get Sephiroth to trust in her more. Meteor would destroy the Planet and all life on it, and Jenova would go back to wherever she came from.
This one is much more speculative, but answers some important questions. For some reason, I find myself believing in this one more.
No...because it's him. Sephiroth would assume the form of Sephiroth because (say it with me) it's him. That is who he is. There is logic to Sephiroth taking on this form, there is no real logic to Jenova taking on the same form.Quote:
Because it's him. He'd use extraordinary psychic powers (which has no reason to posess), to create a duplicate of himself, simply because of what? Vanity? There's no logic to it at all. There were other reasons I think, but it's really a point that needs explaining by both sides.
Oh please, whatever true power Jenova had is lost all throughout the game until the reunion, and even then Sephiroth is the more powerful of the two. What did she do during the Cetra ages? Shapeshifted and spread a virus? Big whoop, clearly she's "one of the most powerful beings ever".Quote:
As for strong will, Sephiroth's mind is weaker than most average people by that point. Jenova is one of the most powerful beings ever.
Well, that can be explained in two ways:Quote:
Jenova's body wouldn't be conciousless, given her arm is capable of independant action.
1 - Basic defense instinct
2 - Sephiroth still controls the pieces after dropping them.
During FFVII? Sephiroth. We don't know how much Jenova cells were injected into Sephiroth, but it was likely a high concentration. Either that, or the extra boost came from being injected while in the womb. Now, no doubt Jenova has strength, since those who carry her cells "inherit" this. But what else? She can shapeshift (supporting the theory that we're following Jenova's body, whoever's controlling it). She can spread a virus that turns people into monsters. Ok, what else? ....god knows, that is all we know of Jenova's "power". Who's to say Sephiroth didn't directly "inherit" Jenova's strength, carrying her cells before birth? So he could be just as powerful as her.Quote:
First off, answer me this: WHY is Sephiroth so extraordinarily power? There's ONE reason and ONE reason only: Jenova cells. Sephiroth's body is the combination of human genes injected with a relatively small amount of Jenova cells(small compared to Jenova herself). Jenova is a mass of 100% Jenova cells. Who do you think's more powerful?
Jenova's shapeshifting power is mentioned in the North Crater. Jenova's only true manipulation is revealed in the Gast videos, and it's an entirely different form than what I'm talking about when I refer to Sephiroth's strong will (something Jenova is never said to have, thankyaverymuch).Quote:
And Jenova's manipulation is far more powerful than Sephiroth, and is stated directly in the game...by Sephiroth. It's in the North Crater, during that flashback to Nibelheim. I forget the exact quote. I'll check a script and post it.
They're "factual" in a sense, but they're not logical. The game is from Cloud's perspective, so we never get to find out anything about "Jenova's true power" and never even get a little hint that she's pulling the strings? It would be sloppy storytelling, very sloppy. FFVII isn't always perfect, but it never falls to those depths.Quote:
And how are my points hold to swallow? They're more factual to in-game proof than what you're saying is.
How could Sephiroth take on his own form when he's frozen in mako?Quote:
No...because it's him. Sephiroth would assume the form of Sephiroth because (say it with me) it's him. That is who he is. There is logic to Sephiroth taking on this form, there is no real logic to Jenova taking on the same form.
Where does it even remotely suggest that? That is pure assumption. How can you take away such a being's power? Her cells still work...Quote:
Oh please, whatever true power Jenova had is lost all throughout the game until the reunion, and even then Sephiroth is the more powerful of the two. What did she do during the Cetra ages? Shapeshifted and spread a virus? Big whoop, clearly she's "one of the most powerful beings ever".
Sephiroth controls NOTHING. He believes Jenova is his mother, he obeys her. She controls him!Quote:
Well, that can be explained in two ways:
1 - Basic defense instinct
2 - Sephiroth still controls the pieces after dropping them.
Even if it was an extremely high concentration, there's an infintely higher concentration in Jenova herself. Sephiroth admits himself that Jenova is what he considers "all powerful." And, yes, I'll get you that quote, but I'm in school now and don't have the time.Quote:
During FFVII? Sephiroth. We don't know how much Jenova cells were injected into Sephiroth, but it was likely a high concentration. Either that, or the extra boost came from being injected while in the womb. Now, no doubt Jenova has strength, since those who carry her cells "inherit" this. But what else? She can shapeshift (supporting the theory that we're following Jenova's body, whoever's controlling it). She can spread a virus that turns people into monsters. Ok, what else? ....god knows, that is all we know of Jenova's "power". Who's to say Sephiroth didn't directly "inherit" Jenova's strength, carrying her cells before birth? So he could be just as powerful as her.
It's not sloppy. It's great story-telling. It actually makes you...how do you say it? Think. Jenova controlling Sephiroth is extremely logical, and supported by in-game facts. What you're saying is not both.Quote:
They're "factual" in a sense, but they're not logical. The game is from Cloud's perspective, so we never get to find out anything about "Jenova's true power" and never even get a little hint that she's pulling the strings? It would be sloppy storytelling, very sloppy. FFVII isn't always perfect, but it never falls to those depths.
Using his repeatedly referenced "strong will".Quote:
How could Sephiroth take on his own form when he's frozen in mako?
But what does Jenova do? NOTHING. Until the reunion is complete and you fight Jenova Synthesis, who is easily dispatched.Quote:
Where does it even remotely suggest that? That is pure assumption. How can you take away such a being's power? Her cells still work...
Prove it. Give me just one line that says Jenova is controlling Sephiroth.Quote:
Sephiroth controls NOTHING. He believes Jenova is his mother, he obeys her. She controls him!
Well, I'm not sure. As we grow from children, our body produces more blood to compensate for the extra space. He do we know Sephiroth's body hasn't been producing Jenova blood since birth? His concentration could be the same for all we know, but I DO know that I recall no line where Sephiroth calls Jenova "all powerful". I'd like to see that before I even think of countering it.Quote:
Even if it was an extremely high concentration, there's an infintely higher concentration in Jenova herself. Sephiroth admits himself that Jenova is what he considers "all powerful." And, yes, I'll get you that quote, but I'm in school now and don't have the time.
Great storytelling? By that standard I could say "Mr. Happy" is a great story. There's no evidence at all to suggest Mr. Happy is a pimp who runs a house of crack whores, but I believe it all the same. Great storytelling there, where I added my imagination to an existing story by someone else. You see my point?Quote:
It's not sloppy. It's great story-telling. It actually makes you...how do you say it? Think. Jenova controlling Sephiroth is extremely logical, and supported by in-game facts. What you're saying is not both.
I'm trying to support my theory with evidence that references to Sephiroth's powers and strong will, you're just saying Jenova is giving the orders, without anything to back it up.
I'll leave you with Hojo's exposition, which comes as the big revelation and is never disputed following that scene. It's pure game fact, with no contest:
Quote:
Hojo
"You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will
eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion."
Hojo
"I have been waiting for the Reunion to start. Five years have
passed, and now the Clones have begun to return."
Hojo
"I thought the clones would begin to gather at Midgar where
Jenova is stored."
"But my predictions were not entirely correct. Jenova itself
began to move away from the Shinra Building."
Hojo
"But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it
was all Sephiroth's doing."
"Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the
Lifestream; he wants to maniplate the Clones himself."
Strong will? He submitted to Jenova.Quote:
Using his repeatedly referenced "strong will".
There's one theory that Jenova was the one running around in the first disk. This is a very factual theory, believable from solely one scene: the North Crater. Remember when you saw Sephiroth killing the clones? Jenova wanted the clones so she could get her cells back, why would Sephiroth kill them? This suggests that the Sephiroth you see is in fact Jenova taking back her cells, and you just see what she wants you to.Quote:
But what does Jenova do? NOTHING. Until the reunion is complete and you fight Jenova Synthesis, who is easily dispatched.
Also, Jenova anyway was telling Sephiroth what to do.
1. In Nibelheim, Sephiroth was obsessed with freeing his "mother." And "mother calls me."Quote:
Prove it. Give me just one line that says Jenova is controlling Sephiroth.
2. "Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice,
and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's
memories, creating you."- Sephiroth
And others. Now, what evidence is there that Sephiroth controls Jenova? She's his mother! He freed her because she beckoned.
He doesn't call her all-powerful, I said basically. He did suggests that she had the ability to manipulate everybodys' minds, which also basically constitutes my belief of "all-powerful."Quote:
Well, I'm not sure. As we grow from children, our body produces more blood to compensate for the extra space. He do we know Sephiroth's body hasn't been producing Jenova blood since birth? His concentration could be the same for all we know, but I DO know that I recall no line where Sephiroth calls Jenova "all powerful". I'd like to see that before I even think of countering it.
Also, suggesting that Sephiroth has been producing Jenova cells is absurd. THAT is not even remotely suggested anywhere in the game, and is highly doubtful. Possible, of course, but very doubtful.
As to your last thing: see above to back-up. WHY would Sephiroth control Jenova? HOW would Sephiroth control Jenova? Those questions are unanswered and cannot be satisfactorily answered.
And, to your quote, Hojo just means that Sephiroth is taking direct control of the clones, and therefor the Reunion. I would like to know how exactly he'd know that, and(even if the quote was actually relevant, which it isn't) if it was true, since not everything said in the game was true(for example: that Cloud was created five years ago and had no history).
WHEN? WHERE? SHOW ME WHERE THIS IS EVER SAID. I'm sorry for the caps, but I can't seem to get it through to you that there is NO EVIDENCE of Jenova manipulating Sephiroth or him "submitting" to her.Quote:
Strong will? He submitted to Jenova.
Um, why wouldn't Sephiroth help Jenova in her reunion? He's still under the impression that she's his mother. And Jenova was telling Sephiroth what to do? Prove it. It's 100000x more likely that Sephiroth's entire plan was formulated from the knowledge he gained while travelling the lifestream.Quote:
There's one theory that Jenova was the one running around in the first disk. This is a very factual theory, believable from solely one scene: the North Crater. Remember when you saw Sephiroth killing the clones? Jenova wanted the clones so she could get her cells back, why would Sephiroth kill them? This suggests that the Sephiroth you see is in fact Jenova taking back her cells, and you just see what she wants you to.
Also, Jenova anyway was telling Sephiroth what to do.
1. He did want to free Jenova. Maybe I'm simple, but this does not indicate in any way she's controlling him.Quote:
1. In Nibelheim, Sephiroth was obsessed with freeing his "mother." And "mother calls me."
2. "Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice,
and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's
memories, creating you."- Sephiroth
And others. Now, what evidence is there that Sephiroth controls Jenova? She's his mother! He freed her because she beckoned.
2. Again, this doesn't remotely suggest she's controlling Sephiroth.
Me theory doesn't involve Sephiroth controlling Jenova herself, just the conciousless blob that remains of her body. His plan was to manipulate the Clones and complete his mother's reunion, while also summoning Meteor. Taking control of the body was extremely beneficial to him. He could assume his own form, lure the clones and then at the end add the body to the reunion. Jenova's true self (i.e her head) was in the North Crater with Sephiroth the whole time
I still want quotes to back up what words you're putting in Sephiroth's mouth. As for producing Jenova cells, well it's just a little something to explain why he's so much more powerful than the clones.Quote:
He doesn't call her all-powerful, I said basically. He did suggests that she had the ability to manipulate everybodys' minds, which also basically constitutes my belief of "all-powerful."
Also, suggesting that Sephiroth has been producing Jenova cells is absurd. THAT is not even remotely suggested anywhere in the game, and is highly doubtful. Possible, of course, but very doubtful.
As I said, not Jenova herself, just the body. As for the "how" -- his strong will. He manipulated Cloud, a conscious being -- why not an inactive blob?Quote:
As to your last thing: see above to back-up. WHY would Sephiroth control Jenova? HOW would Sephiroth control Jenova? Those questions are unanswered and cannot be satisfactorily answered.
The quote is relevant, Hojo says "It was all Sephiroth's doing". Everything he mentioned, not just the clones. And I admit the thing about Cloud was untrue, but he do we know this? Because it's dealt with, disputed, refuted and disproven in the game. Hojo's exposition is not, therefore it's pure fact.Quote:
And, to your quote, Hojo just means that Sephiroth is taking direct control of the clones, and therefor the Reunion. I would like to know how exactly he'd know that, and(even if the quote was actually relevant, which it isn't) if it was true, since not everything said in the game was true(for example: that Cloud was created five years ago and had no history)
Okay two things about Hojo. He's Sephiroth's dad. He's insane.
One thing though, what strong will? Sephiroth is insane! It's also a stupidly huge coincidence that the one person Hojo used for that experiment happened to be the one person with the insane amount of mental ability to control ancient super powerful aliens after being driven crazy,stabbed, then stuck in mako for a few years.
You haven't explained why Sephiroth would go to the extreme lengths of projecting his image, to manipulate the appearance of Jenova (an ability that solely belongs to Jenova and is never suggested to be passed on through cloning). He didn't want his face to demand respect, those that knew him he killed. Those that failed to recognise him, well failed to recognise him. Only Cloud and Co. really have frequent encounters (as far as we know).
The game, from beginning to end is about the reunion. This is solely to do with Jenova. Sephiroth just happens to have a lot of her cells.
I do have a theory as to why Jenova appears as Sephiroth, that extends the luring Cloud theory. However this theory requires a lot of theorising outside the game, and as there is no decent explanation from any side I'm not going to distract the topic by bringing it up.