The Tides of God

The planet when threatened sent forth the Weapons: These artifacts were the final line of justice dispensed on the scourge of humanity. And so Midgar was targeted; the capital of human corruption would be the first to fall. Midgard in Norse myth is the realm between Asgaurd (heven) and Mudspell (Hel's realm, in fact this is where the English word "hell" comes from old Norse). In FF7, Midgar was presented in nightmarish proportions, and as the player was informed Midgar has directly contributed to the demise of the planetary equilibrium. By harvesting mako, Midgar interfered with the natural cycle of the plant...So in return the planet punished Midgar. Contextually this is a metaphor of the biblical myth of Exodus... When Man became sinful and began to entertain infernal knowledge God sent forth the deluge, aiming to reset the world and only those who embraced God's wisdom would survive. The bible describes that the waters sprang forth form the earth (obviously not a normal precipitation induced flood and the weapons similarly were summoned from the earth, they awoke out of the planet) Intentionally, Rufus is immediately sentenced by the weapons, his death demonstrated the fragility of material resources and politics. As the representative of such profane luxuries Rufus was an easy target; amidst the havens, in his all to reminiscently Babel tower like shiRa monolith. Rufus demanded power, he betrayed his father, his actions were driven by greed.. even in his demise, the conceited character shielded his eyes from his fate in undying cowardice. The fact that the weapons targeted midgar, illustrated how mans infernal knowledge will lead to a collapse, whether it be spiritual, intellectual or quite literally physical. Notice the recent explosion in the western world of environmental illnesses (Asthma, Cancer, Stress, Depression). Sure man has tamed nature but now he faces the new challenge of the unseen products evolved in locking nature down. Man dissolved paradise when he embraced knowledge, as the illicit partnership magnifies, knowledge will estrange man from even the swamps and the deserts he created. When man is left with nothing to stand upon, he will draw his final breath.

The theme of rebirth appears widely in Myth and as a matter of fact also is prevalent the Final Fantasy series...beyond coincidental probabilities. The efforts of Aeris ensured the survival of the animal kingdom. This strongly correlates to Noahs assembly of the animals upon the Arc. Aeris followed her inner self, she heard a voice and reacted. So to did Noah, he acted on Gods behalf and ensured survival for those enlightened to Gods word. If man can here God as did Aeris, death becomes no obstacle. Aeris knowingly embraced death as a provision for the infernal regime of sephiroth. And although Sephiroths plan succeeded in annihilating the synthetic "man made" realm; the final scene in FF7 shows that Aeris managed to preserve the pure life forms and thus create the new regime. In an ironical sense the weapons and sephiroth can be identified with the devices of change (the flood) and Aeris is analogous to the Arc...harbouring the pure life blissfully into tomorrow....

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The planet when threatened sent forth the Weapons: These artifacts were the final line of justice dispensed on the scourge of humanity.

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The Weapons were created to counter the threat of Jenova, a powerful being who came from the sky and used illusion to deceive her foes - a "fallen angel", if you will, albeit an angel of another world. When the Weapons were later re-awoke, they couldn't confront Sephiroth and Jenova due to the protective barrier. They instead turned on Human population centres, not because they were profaned by knowledge or infested with Human life, but because of the Mako reactors - exploitive, labour-saving means of energy production.

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The fact that the weapons targeted midgar, illustrated how mans infernal knowledge will lead to a collapse, whether it be spiritual, intellectual or quite literally physical. Notice the recent explosion in the western world of environmental illnesses (Asthma, Cancer, Stress, Depression). Sure man has tamed nature but now he faces the new challenge of the unseen products evolved in locking nature down. Man dissolved paradise when he embraced knowledge, as the illicit partnership magnifies, knowledge will estrange man from even the swamps and the deserts he created. When man is left with nothing to stand upon, he will draw his final breath.

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Having knowledge does not cause death, the deliberate misuse or reckless disregard for the consequences of that knowledge are fatal. Knowledge isn't 'infernal', it is natural. Ignorance does not bring one closer to God, it takes one further from a true understanding of the world and its people.

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The efforts of Aeris ensured the survival of the animal kingdom.

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Aeris' sacrifice was to protect all life; be it plant, animal, or Human. Chiefly, she wanted to preserve the life of the Planet itself, without which everything would die regardless.

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And although Sephiroths plan succeeded in annihilating the synthetic "man made" realm; the final scene in FF7 shows that Aeris managed to preserve the pure life forms and thus create the new regime.

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Humanity endured, it overcame the terror and destruction wrought by Sephiroth, Jenova and Meteor. The original threat - Shinra - was toppled, helping to secure a more prosperous future. Shinra was 'destroyed' by its own disregard for lfe, for the Planet, and that contributed to its downfall. Shinra's removal paved the way for a more altruistic, 'spiritually' aware society - one with people like AVALANCE and Nanaki at its forefront.

mmmm. I believe that the very fact the writers focused of the birds and nanaki and his offspring reinforced the pure natural plan (Eden like) paradise on the planet.
You make an interesting intersection of the weapons and tend to favour “mechanisms” over “purpose”. The weapons appear in FF8 also. This shows that they are some kind of Mythical artifact. The mere fact that they were created does not cheapen these mythical landscape. Simply one can learn the specific mechanisms of an enzyme, yet totally ignore its higher purpose (for example oxyheamgolbinase an enzyme and is a multiple step reaction, comprised of Fe ligands complex and various organic agents...yet this “mechanical” understanding only serves its own ends and is less important than realising that the enzymes “purpose” is to ultimately assist in oxygen transport). A true scholar would know both, and which factor “serves” the other.

One could fairly say that man evolved from apes.. a notion that is scenically supported. BUT when man became man he stopped being an ape. Man is distinct. The weapons are a metaphor for the floods and there purpose is to annihilate the infernal. Amidst all this chaos the cycle of rebirth can occur...and as we see in FF7 it certainly does. Simply explaining this mechanically misses the fact that these events are all interweaved into one another as a universal whole.

The fact that the weapons were attracted to the mako (mechanical) ensured that the cleansing (higher context) was achieved.... I am glad that you have flourished on many of the topics in detail Big D.

But one must recognise that the physical (science, technology... i.e. the description) of what something is tends to be secondary.... but certainly not negligible, to the context of myth.

Basically the story of the rebirth is the essence and FF7 is a way of understanding it in a modern (1990's) frame work. These ideas have circulated mans thought for millennia and FF7 is a very relevant and confronting story which addresses this mythological theme. The plot and it devices resound Exodus.


Anyhow I pray that this rectifies the 10 point damage incurred by that 3 letter Acronym. (Resists from using it).

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...they are some kind of Mythical artifact. The mere fact that they were created does not cheapen these mythical landscape.

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Quite. FFVII's Weapons were born/created directly from the Planet itself, the source of all life and Lifestream.

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The weapons are a metaphor for the floods and there purpose is to annihilate the infernal.

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I'm often intrigued by your use of the word 'infernal'... you often seem to equate 'infernalism' with 'Humanism', a comparison I could not find in any dictionaries. If you believe that the Human abandonment of nature in favour of lifeless machinery is 'infernal', then the Weapons' actions match your assesment. However, it's not a fundamental aspect of Human nature to destroy life, or the 'machinery' of life... it's an unfortunate byproduct of some aspects of modern civilisation, something that is limited, and hopefully can be overcome - as indeed it was in FFVII.

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I believe that the very fact the writers focused of the birds and nanaki and his offspring reinforced the pure natural plan (Eden like) paradise on the planet...
The fact that the weapons were attracted to the mako (mechanical) ensured that the cleansing (higher context) was achieved

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There's definitely a stark contrast between Shinra's Midgar and the 'reclaimed' city seen at the end. Basically, true life has returned to the once barren city. Mako's no longer being extracted and wasted, it's being used for its intended purpose - life.

Cosmo Canyon and its residents - both Humans and Nanaki's kind - are proof that knowledge isn't an infernal force. They pursue the study of life, learning all that can be learned about the Planet, even though they may never finish (similar, I guess, to those who devote their lives to trying to 'understand God' completely), and then the Elders leave that knowledge for future generations. Technology and science go hand-in-hand with spirituality and naturalism, as Bugenhagen demonstrates.

The constructs of Humans and the Planet aren't inherently evil, rather it's their applications that have the potential to cause incomparable suffering. Knowledge alone can dangerous (Hojo, Shinra, Sephiroth, Weapon, etc), but knowledge tempered by wisdom and purpose (Aeris and Cosmo Canyon) is what some might see as the true 'meaning' of life.

Oh, when I refer to knowledge as a curse I refer to the kind equated with greed. (as in Eden and the apple)

Knowledge of Astronomy, science, Law, music and art all some form the muses in Greek myth. Therefore the source is higher than man.

Yet politics, greed, power, and betrayl of god word will end in destruction. e.g. Cain and Able, King solomon and the Balble tower... Clearly knowledge is considered bad in these instances.

My brain hurts



bad.

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Originally posted by Besimudo
Oh, when I refer to knowledge as a curse I refer to the kind equated with greed. (as in Eden and the apple)

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But that, like many other things, has a two-pronged effect. Our desire to understand the unknown sometimes surpasses our thoughts of the consequenses. I think the line that divides the "good knowledge" from the "bad knowledge" is capitalism (perhaps not capitalism specifically but monetary wealth in general). When people use knowledge for their own personal gain, a heirarchy forms......with a division of extremely rich and extremely poor. This is Midgar. Whereas, when information and knowledge are used to enlighten humanity, equality is achieved (Cosmo Canyon). In this sense, it seems that Migdar and Cosmo Canyon are opposites of one another. Both cities have prospered, but only one has done it correctly.

It all makes sense, but is anybody really right. Will the truth be found?

I personally doubt that there's any clear 'truth' to be found. Each person's answer is the 'truth' to them, they believe whatever they want. It's not really something that can be conclusively proven. Individual opinion is what it really comes down to.

Still, it can be interesting to discuss. In spite of what some people (myself included) may say elsewhere, Besimudo's threads can often prompt a very thought-provoking discussion on many levels.

...Until it starts to get too deep, and we're all left in Eyece's position.

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Originally posted by Eyece
My brain hurts



bad.

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I second that. Ya Know?

I cannot see how anyone can deny the theme of death and rebirth. FF7 is quite literal in its imagery and the plot is consistent with the destructive cycle.

One element that screams the obvious is the state of the world before the weapons come.. Perhaps a quick revision of revelations will ring a familiar tone of truth. This is not about opinion, this is just as valid as analysing the "psychology" or the "economics" in the game... And after all this heart ache I can only hope that people can start to realise that a mythological analysis (absolute) is the most enlightening perspective.
The mechanics of the game are easy to dissect, one can comment on the mental condition of Cloud. its so apparent. Yet the myths show themselves symbolically, and most rationalists have loosed this ability to see the higher order of things. (thanks to Darwin).

When we analyse these works we need to look at how they changed our perspective i.e. what had the biggest impact on you. And I can assure myself that everyone deep down (although they may deny it) will have to agree that it was that unsettling revelation along the back of their spine that appealed most. The ephemeral things in FF7 impacted little, it was the deep rooted mythological appeal that made us as humans appreciate the game on that level, which most of us have never been taught how to explain.

"What I teach is so easy to be with and to follow, but nobody ever can."

Lao Tsu

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I can only hope that people can start to realise that a mythological analysis (absolute) is the most enlightening perspective.

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Once again... this is your OPINION, not a fact. Some would say that analysing the characters and their personalities is the most 'enlightening' viewpoint. I don't agree, but that doesn't make them wrong.

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it was the deep rooted mythological appeal that made us as humans appreciate the game on that level

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No. Just no. The mythological symbolism and references were interesting to me, and they make for some lively discussion, but it was the game's Human aspect - its statements on life, love, death - which made it appeal to me. If the mythology 'spoke' to you the most, then fine - but that not how it is for everyone.

Big D these "human" themes reflect the cycles themselves. You fascination with death and love are only glimpses into the divine nature of all things and the human themes are consistent with what happens to the universe, just on a more familiar wavelength.

In your very noble opinion your preference for these themes, demonstrates that you on a more specific scale agree totally with my contention. So prevent inoculation and resentment you may have carried over from other forums just remember that this is all about the cycles of nature and what you have stated reinforces this assertion. My worry is that you have drawn a subconscious barrier between the human condition and the greater universe as a whole... but this is typical of human arrogance.

Now go read up on Frazer; who identified that life, love, death, rebirth and cycle ( I believe you mentioned some of these aspects) were all important in the human condition as THEY REFLECT THE GREATER CYCLE OF ALL THINGS.

If you were familiar with these scholars you would not be so rash or frivolous in your claims.

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Big D these "human" themes reflect the cycles themselves. You fascination with death and love are only glimpses into the divine nature of all things and the human themes are consistent with what happens to the universe, just on a more familiar wavelength.

In your very noble opinion your preference for these themes, demonstrates that you on a more specific scale agree totally with my contention.

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I knew you were going to say that, or something very similar. When I appraised the Human elements of FFVII's story, I examined them in their Human context.

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Now go read up on Frazer; who identified that life, love, death, rebirth and cycle ( I believe you mentioned some of these aspects) were all important in the human condition as THEY REFLECT THE GREATER CYCLE OF ALL THINGS.

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I know that they're part of the greater whole. I also recognise that they're concepts with considerable Human significance. It could be argued that everything is a part of the greater cycle, that there's no such thing as a 'humanistic' perspective since every assesment is inherently examining some part of the 'big picture'.

It's possible to look at a work's Human values without detracting from, or devaluing its superhuman components.

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If you were familiar with these scholars you would not be so rash or frivolous in your claims.

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You have read the warning about flaming, haven't you? Please, pay heed.

It's possible for a theme - such as love or death - to be significant on a Human level and spiritual level. I feel that the Human level is more important for me (since that's what I am, as far as I know), but I'm also allowed to ponder the other aspect of it.

It's all about personal priorities and personal opinions, not whose worldview is superior or inferior.

Yes but the reason you can appreaciate these themes is because they remind you of the divine on a sub level.

How could you possibly know that, even if it was true? To be reminded of something implies prior knowledge or memory of it. I'm not, and never have been, a part of the 'divine'. I'm Human, my perceptions and opinions are Human in their origin and construction.

Your argument is reasonable enough, but there is genuinely no way to evince or support it.

Yes it is difficult to see the divine and the physical as a whole. Plato describes mans affinity for the good and beauty as his memory of the divine. Before we come to being all things derive their physical from the forms. The forms are so perfect that when ever man see something beautiful or experiences something insightful...he is reminded of the basic forms (heaven) and feels uplifted.

Human have such a consistent apprehension of what is universally good and what is beautiful. Our ability to detect these things and the idea of oneness is so quintessential that babies can at an early age (without learning) show an understanding of oneness.
It is interesting that what Plato said, after all these years is now "backed up" by scientific research. Not that it needed backing up.


As you know the divine materialises itself in this world via our genes. The basic ideas humans have are more than mere opinions, they underlay our whole being.
Modern thinkers (existentialists) like to believe that everything we are is the result of experience. But our emotions are genetic, our feelings are chemical, and our experiences are limited by what we can do!

The divine is not some blue, cloud laden place it is the very very base of our whole universe.
The ideas humans have, are from the divine.
The idea of oneness and nothingness i.e. 1 and 0 are ideas born from inspiration they cannot be reached by deduction.... Basically rational thought cannot produce these precepts, they can only be reached by internal thought and linking yourself back to the very most fundamental roots. How can one deduce a square for instance from nature? Socrates thought a boy geometry by asking him questions, this was proof that man had a prior knowledge of the divine. i.e. numbers and shapes are rooted in our genes.

The very best philosophers all seem to agree on one thing.

"Know thy self" Socrates

"the cleaver man knows much, the enlightened man knows himself" Sun Tzu

"Only knowledge of the Tao is important, and to know the tao is to know only oneself" Lao Tsu

You've said all of that before. How do you know?

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Plato describes mans affinity for the good and beauty as his memory of the divine. Before we come to being all things derive their physical from the forms. The forms are so perfect that when ever man see something beautiful or experiences something insightful...he is reminded of the basic forms (heaven) and feels uplifted.

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Nah. An appreciation of physical beauty was, originally, an instinctive aid to reproduction.

There's nothing to actively support your belief - at least, there's no evidence which is not in some way self-referential.

What you want to believe is up to you. Same goes for me.

Your Darwinist approach has deluded your wisdom.

I was talking about the knowledge of shapes and numbers. All the great thinkers even today as I have stated access the divine knowledge i.e. that level of inspiration.

Also you say that physical beauty aids reproduction....RUBBISH. where is your proof for this?

Reproduction is chemical driven by pheromones and failing this chemical knowledge (I don’t expect everyone to be a chemistry student) A greater understanding of philosophy would have enabled you to realise that reproduction still occurs in things that are not beautiful.

Beauty may well be a sex selection criteria (today) but there is no evidence that it assists reproduction itself.... if anything small attractive women were more prone to die at child birth while larger women had more stability Anthropomorphism; Big D is an offence in science.

Remember that I was talking about beauty as a concept not just in terms of hot chicks. The reason things are beautiful is because they resemble the forms… i.e. symmetry, perfect shape. And this is why humans agree on what is and what is not beautiful (in blind tests around the world, where people are asked what is and what is not attractive) as we all have the same basic knowledge of the forms….despite culture, intellect or background.

I am afraid you will just have to accept it. All the evidence is there. Perhaps you wont as you seem to think yourself too good for some of the worlds greatest thinkers both from today and the past. Don’t you realise that Darwin, Nietzsche and Marx just simplified much of what was already known. They just dumbed it down a peg for the mainstream. Evolution was around before Darwin, Nietzsche was a moron ("God is dead"....God is the absolute and clearly the infinite cannot die) and finally Marx had good intentions but ultimately the socialist utopia is the final phase of civilisation (as Socrates pointed out 2000 years ago) but Marx neglected this point, and from the masses a despot will always arise destroying the civilisation.

I have noticed that most lay men and pseudo philosophers love the three morons I mentioned as their ideas are easy to digest and reinforce "humanism". And as I damn well know people love to be reinforced, just look at the numerous "feel good" movies... Marx is a real "feel good" philosopher.

I hate to say it but everything is entropic, the universe is not developing, it is actually decaying...wake up and face the truth. Enlightenment is your only hope to break free of the illusion.

Jen slaps Besimudo around a bit with a large tuna! http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/image...es/tr%6Fut.gif

Aaaaaargh!!! If you're going to quote the Bible I beg you to please read it first! I don't have a problem with whether or not you believe it, but I cringe at all the errs.

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Contextually this is a metaphor of the biblical myth of Exodus... When Man became sinful and began to entertain infernal knowledge God sent forth the deluge, aiming to reset the world and only those who embraced God's wisdom would survive. The bible describes that the waters sprang forth form the earth.

The plot and it devices resound Exodus.

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The story of Exodus is about the birth, life, and calling of a man named Moses. He was the founder of the Jewish religion and the writer of the Torah. This book has nothing to do with Noah, his arc, or the floods.

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King solomon and the Balble tower...

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King Solomon was the son of King David and Bathsheba, and the second king of Isreal before it became the divided kingdoms of Isreal and Judah. He ruled between 970-930 B.C. and built the first temple for the Lord. His story can be found in 1Kings 1-11 and 2Chronicles 1-9. He had absolutely nothing to do with the Tower of Babel.

The book you are thinking of is the book of Genesis. It goes into all the themes that you are discussing and makes a very interesting read. If I were to recommend a Bible for you to look these, and other interesting tales up in, I would say that you should invest in the "So That's Why! Bible" It goes into the people, places, and events that were happening in history at the time the stories in the Bible take place. Go for it! :thumb:

Oh dear... You obviously have not played enough square soft games to realise that they constantly draw from ancient texts.

In the SNES game "ledgend of Gaia" the hero visited ancient civilisations and such.

In ALL the FF games the summons are ancient Gods.
And like wise the games story line take a lot from MYTHS including Judaeo/christian MYTHS. So it is only reasonable to comment on these games in a mythological sense!!

It seems that you are from the "far right" who only take the bible literally.... Slaps back with an even bigger (monty python) style FISH.

That, of course has nothing to do with my post. I am not arguing that you are wrong. In fact, I wasn't arguing with you at all. I was pointing out that if you are going to reference a source you should be accurate. My beliefs are my own and even if I didn't agree with the Bible it would still grate on my nerves to have it misquoted and misrepresented. :tongue:

Besimudo, remember how I once said that all religious hard-liners tend to believe that their faith is the absolute truth, and that anyone different is an ignorant, godless, heathen halfwit? You're proving my point. Believe whatever you want to believe, just don't think you can criticise the rest of us for not sharing your opinion. Every faith has its own 'undeniable evidence', but that evidence is subjective, whether you believe that or not.

You are perfectly demonstrating the 'religious arrogance' which, on a larger scale, leads to prejudice and even war.

Everyone with a strong religious faith says "mine is the true faith, it's proven by history and science and philospohy, no-one can doubt or deny it unless they're stupid and unenlightened!"

I have heard this far too many times.

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Big D is an offence in science.

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What the hell is that suppposed to mean?

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Perhaps you wont as you seem to think yourself too good for some of the worlds greatest thinkers both from today and the past.

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Darwin, Nietzsche and Marx just simplified much of what was already known.... Nietzsche was a moron... Marx is a real "feel good" philosopher.

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*cough*

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"God is dead"....God is the absolute and clearly the infinite cannot die

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This suggests that you have absolutely no idea of what he was talking about. Even I understand 'death of God', and it's not something I really care about. As MateriaGirl says, you should practise what you preach - do a little background reading before launching inflammatory attacks.

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I hate to say it but everything is entropic, the universe is not developing, it is actually decaying

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Life is developing... the advancement of knowledge and the strength of love are reason enough for me to keep going.

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...wake up and face the truth. Enlightenment is your only hope to break free of the illusion.

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Whose enlightenment? Yours? Buddhist? Christian-based? There you go again, "my religion is the only hope".

This thead is so completely off-topic that even
I can't be arsed continuing.
And that's really saying something.

A misinterpretation?

* No the Weapons as a metaphor for the floods is a very good insight and one I arrived at in meditaion.

* Big D your reductionism in saying that physical beauty was an aid to reproduction was absurd. I pointed out a few scenarios which you conveiniently glossed over as you obviously wanted to rescue your friend Nietzsche.

* Nietzsche is and always will be a product of modernism, his ideas were very loose, unfounded and make very little contribution to the higher philosophical lexicon. Nietzsche is in simple terms the Rowlings of the Tolkein world. No serious philosophers take his ramblings on random topics seriously. I only chose him because I registered your negative reaction to plato; and from this deduced your mentors. Der einer Mensch has to be one of the most lame ideas; Socrates (no surprise) had already illustrated the notion of the "heroes of the mob" Nietzsche was the kind of moron to believe that he came up with such an idea because he himself never read the great works of the ancient philosophers. Oh and as for your good friend Darwin, he himself on his death bed confessed a divine creator.


* I have already disclosed that I know nothing. What offends me is that modernist thinkers who do not even understand the absolute wish to judge and critise it.
Once again your all trying to summarise in a neat psycological frame work, but tell me what has psycology ever proven? The only ground breaking ideas on the mind have come from Chemistry and Philosophy!

* This notion that man is some how progressing is rubbish. Humans are like everything else bound to the laws of the universe. And both physically and spiriturally the universe is decaying. This is not my opionion but the findings of scientists and philosophers.

So please do not credit me with these great thoughts... I am merely a messenger, attempting to preserve the great heritage of knowledge...Unfortunately even knowledge decays.

This forum is no more off topic than "darwinism extinct"
Your simply proving my rule.

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* Big D your reductionism in saying that physical beauty was an aid to reproduction was absurd. I pointed out a few scenarios which you conveiniently glossed over as you obviously wanted to rescue your friend Nietzsche.

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Physical beauty, as an element of sexuality, has an inherent link to reproduction. I never meant to imply that it was the only purpose and meaning of beauty.

As for Nietzsche... I have a passing familiarity with some of his ideas. He is not my 'friend', nor do I have any particular interest or bond to his ideas.

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Oh and as for your good friend Darwin, he himself on his death bed confessed a divine creator.

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Darwin isn't my 'friend' either. Oh, and I know he was Christian. Many scientists and great minds have religious beliefs. What's your point?

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Once again your all trying to summarise in a neat psycological frame work, but tell me what has psycology ever proven? The only ground breaking ideas on the mind have come from Chemistry and Philosophy!

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"Ground-breaking" in your opinion only. Psychology unlocks many subtleties and nuances of the mind, explaining how and why people feel and think what they do, rather than having to resort to the typical lame moron's argument that "everything is divine, there's nothing original about people at all because it's all just a faint echo of something fundamentally superior".

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* This notion that man is some how progressing is rubbish. Humans are like everything else bound to the laws of the universe. And both physically and spiriturally the universe is decaying. This is not my opionion but the findings of scientists and philosophers.

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Everything's coming to and end, you mean? What isn't? Death is inevitable. However, evolution and other developments prove that life is capable of progression. Actually, the universe itself is eveolving too - the undefined chaos of the primordial universe settled into the familiar stars, galaxies and other cosmic phenomena. Patterns and complexities have developed over time. Life is a part of that system - complexity increases over time, enhancing the capabilities of intellect and understanding. I really don't feel like going into this right now, though. It's a matter for another time. My point is simply that life has become more than what it was.

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This forum is no more off topic than "darwinism extinct"

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That was, and continued to be, a theological debate. This thread used to be about religious and mythological symbolism in FFVII, but you turned it into a rant-fest extolling the virtues of your 'superior' beliefs.

You should probably stop whinging about being "attacked" in all those other threads - it won't really help your cause. People only attack when they're given reason to; plenty of other intense debates (eg Two Sephiroths) have gone on for a very long time with a minimun of hostility. People only lose their nut with you because of your apparent attitude that you have all the answers, and are above fault or reconsideration, simply because you like a few philosphers and myths.

No, psychology is pointless. The rantings of Freud hardly amount to an exact science. How does studying one mind, something which is capable of infinite possibilities assist the understanding of another. What psychology attempts to do is to classify the human mind like a scientist would classify chemicals.

i.e. Br (FeCl3) + Benzene = 1-bromo benzne.


i.e. childhood memories + suppressive adolescence = mid life crisis.

This is the world of the psychologist, the rant about IQ tests, EQ tests and other meaningless exercises that amount to nothing, no laws, no results just temporary little fads that come in and out of phase.

Why dont you study the inaccurateness of psychological information.


As for materia girl I hope that you were not implying that I was not aware that Noah arc myth did not occur in Genesis? Clearly Exodus is another account comparable to Aeris, as she goes on a pilgrimage to find her true self…. FF7 has a lot of this content, one could also compare the 4 weapons to the 4 horse men of the apocalypse…. in revelations

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No, psychology is pointless.

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HAHAHAHAHAHA! What a pathetic statement. Thousands have studied and applied this science; can you reasonably proclaim to be intellectually superior to all of them? No science is exact; even mathematics and chemistry have unpredictable elements.

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This is the world of the psychologist, the rant about IQ tests, EQ tests and other meaningless exercises that amount to nothing, no laws, no results just temporary little fads that come in and out of phase.

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So IQ tests are irrelevant? They give a quantitative value to intellectual ability. Pretty useful to most people. Of course there are few concrete 'laws' of psychology; people are different to each other, psychology recognises and examines the causes and affects of those differences. Minds are such complex and variable structures; it'd pretty boring if we were so simple that our very existence could be defined by a set of equations and equilibria.
The workings of the human brain are far more complex than other chemical and physical systems. The study of the Human mind is one of the most intricate and recent. It's still unfolding; of course not everything is known as of yet.

The Common Law develops uncertainly through the operation of Stare Decisis; does that mean that all Westminster-based legal systems are irrelevant? Of course not. Uncertainty does not equate to irrelevance.

I'm no great enthusiast of psychology, however it is a topic that interests me. I'm only defending here because of yet another puerile attempt by you to abuse and ridicule something that you simply don't like. Other people manage to have opinions without assuming that ideas are absolutes which must apply to everyone and everything. You should give it a go sometime. Tolerance is a virtue...

Psychology has NEVER proclaimed to study the "mind" as you suggest. No one really knows what the mind even is. The brain it is certain that this organ is quite physical...but the mind, well people have attempted to define this for millennia.

You seem to ignore the fact that Humans can infer ideas from a higher level. Do you actually believe that Plato and Pythagoras went out into the world and said "oh look here is a square".

Sure squares exist in the world but one cannot know what a square is without prior knowledge!!! The reason the Greeks had such a profound impact on learning was because they inferred their knowledge. Some publications like to imply that knowledge was easier back then and today just about everything has been invented.
If anything Knowledge is much more accessible and more PhD papers are published per year! But without the learning culture of the Greeks …preserved by the Arabs and then reintroduced to Europe most of our Western tradition would never have blossomed.

And for thousands of years philosophers of all cultures have come to realise that man can connect with a "higher" information bank and learn "true" knowledge.

This is not an opinion but a fact. Even something as elementary as fire "comes from the gods" because its application is not apparent. When did man learn that fire could be a friend?? By watching it and then saying oh, this stuff cooks things and keeps us warm lets us use it?

OFCOURSE not, the use of fire like all mans great inventions owes its birth to inspiration/divine blessing/higher knowledge....CALL IT WHAT YOU WANT!
This is why invention is treated more as an art than a science.


Now, you obviously don’t understand the history of psychology. It is the ramblings of Freud; based on his "observations" of relatives. He tried to understand the way they acted by taking notes. The notes had no scientific merit at all. Now tell me what has psychology really achieved except "cheapening" the human mind on yet another level. In the destructive modernist tradition (noticeable in the west) first we dumb down evolution and next stop the mind. As I have stated the Greeks came to acknowledge evolution (500 B.C) but its role was to serve a greater purpose. i.e. we see that same mechanism and reason again. Then Darwin simply stated that everything was determined in a completely random fashion (which is statistically impossible) via selection. I agree, but how can anything be completely random (this is pretty basic stuff) everything is born in a time, place and has its own unique genetic structure and all these elements materialise the events it can and cannot partake and thus fate is enacted.


See how knowledge is decaying, we went from a system of absolute knowledge to one which is fanatical about facts. Psychology is not based on laws but meaningless facts. Only America uses "lie detectors", and no body asks for your IQ on a job reference. Also IQ results oscillate, they are not consistent.

The things you are interested in are better explained in literature, even though they attempt to describe them in psychology.

A lot of this information can be accessed in the humble Britannica...that right an encyclopaedia written by unbiased university professors.


Oh... I hate to be critical but no respectable university considers psycology a science! neuro-chemistry is about as close as youll get... and not surprisingly this science does bring results. Perhaps you should read American scientist or even the good old Britanica.

Worst Thread Ever

Seriously guys. Take this discussion to PM or something unless you want to get back on subject.

:(

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Originally posted by Rude
Worst Thread Ever

Seriously guys. Take this discussion to PM or something unless you want to get back on subject.

:(

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I originally posted...
This thead is so completely off-topic that even I can't be arsed continuing.
And that's really saying something.

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Clearly this is not off topic we are still basically discussing what this forum was originally intended to do.

I.e. discuss the absolute.

Debate only arises out of the western inclination to value the progressive modernist doctrines. I have yet to see a valid argument against the existence of fate as no-one can, fate is an idea just like numbers and shapes. Its identity is absolute.

After this people claimed that free will was enough evidence that fate does not exist so I clarified this as an illusion. This is like the bolts of an engine saying that because they are made of a different metal do not belong to the car as a whole. Human like everything are bound, free will is just a novelty as implementing our "free will" only becomes our fate. Our genes, place of birth, and time of birth are already determined from these basic seed grow more complex events but they stem from the absolute origin.

I think that we can all agree that a sunflower seed will produce a plant. yet all the other universal factors outside it control determine whether or not it blooms.
We have to be less arrogant and realise that who and what we are is not because of superficial primary school tales that "if YOU try hard YOU will succeed". Do you think a starving economically deprived African child can alter his fate via "free will" no of course not it takes the greater "external universe" outside his control to change his destiny... Quite simply because it was things out side his control that caused his predicament. Sure you can rave all you like about free will when living in economic bliss, with food and clean water.


(oh and don’t say this is irrelevant I am merely providing example of how the greater power works)

Why do you think Lao Tzu told us.

Be yielding like the reed in the river... if you are stiff the river will break you, yet if you yield, go with the river you shall.


Fate is pretty basic stuff but everyone seems to misunderstand it.