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I know this has come up before but I cant find the thread for it so....
Whats the bloke in the pipe for because he doesnt do anything and he just says "oohhhhhhhhhhhh aaaggggggggg" and thats about it and then he dissaears I know that he has a tatoo but there are no Renion People in that area. Another thing the man in the pipe he has alot of trophies was he at the Golden Saucer or something once.
i dnt know its just puzzling he's there and then he never comes back again.
It's called 'foreshadowing'.
Um.
(SPOILER) Zack didn't just "take a few bullets." He was caught by surprise with the first spurt and fell. Then one soldier walked up to his body and quite literally filled it with lead. Zack died.
I'm adding a spoiler warning to the title of this thread, so every post doesn't need to be invisible.
Jenova cells didn't bring Vincent back to life. He was only shot once, and we don't know where exactly, or whether or not it was a fatal wound or not. Furthermore, I doubt that he had any Jenova injected into him, because he was not drawn toward the Northern Cave during Reunion. If Cloud & co. had not disturbed his rest, he probably never would have awoken.
Vincent notwithstanding, Zack's as dead as a doornail. He wasn't just shot. He recieved a ten-second sustained burst from an automatic machine gun at point-blank range.
That's not shot.
That's mincemeat.
That does makes sense, and it serves to cover why Vinney decided to join the party with seemingly little explination, if any.
Please, remember, Zack took a burst from an automatic machine gun, in the head, at point blank range. That means that his head is splattered across that cliff near Midgar.
If Jenova cells can't rebuild Vincent's arm, they sure as hell can't rebuild Zacks brain and head. Even if you disregard Vincent, Jenny couldn't rebuild her own head, so I doubt the Jenova cells in Zack could.
Furthermore, Hojo's notes indicated Zack had little or no response to the Jenova cells, as opposed to Cloud who had a strong reaction to the Jenova. Vincent really is irrelevant in this discussion; we simply have no idea what was done to him, and cannot consdier him a model for the standard Jenova infectee, considering the presence of third-party genetic strands in his nucleii.
Dak Rey has a point. If you went there with Aeris, she would have recognized him.
Somebody in the streets of the slums says that he's horribly sick (or something like that).
I always thought it was a fetch quest that Square ripped out, and just left the character there.
The "bloke" was one of the people that later attended the Jenova Reunion. Just go with that, it's not as confusing.
That's right. He's the first clone to appear.
Let me get this straight: you think Zack sat in front of his ex-best-friend and his ex-girlfriend, and NEITHER of them recognised him?
Zack didn't have "a bit less of a reaction" than Cloud. According to Hojo's notes, he had no reaction at all.Quote:
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
Zack did have a bit less of a reaction to the Jenova cells than cloud did, but that's because he's stronger, and his body was able to handle it. He still has them, and they still work. They just don't take him over and control him like they do to cloud.
Search for Hojo's notes in the back room of the study beneath Shinra Mansion. Cloud and Zack are referred to as "specimens" and not by their names, but you can tell which is which by Hojo's comments.
With no disrespect, sir, listen to the theories you're coming up with. You're reaching an awful lot.
If the sick man was Zack, the script would have included some substantial hint of it, like having Aeris say that he reminds her of someone, or something.
He DID got to the Reunion - that's why he wasn't there later.
Yes.
People like Aeris and Zack die of realistic causes because battle logic simply does not carry over into cutscenes. That's why Tidus in FFX can run down a walkway fighting soldiers and getting sprayed in the face with bullets without a scratch to show for it, then be stopped in his tracks as the scene enters a cutscene and guns are held to his face.
Cloud didn't die when he was stabbed with Masamune because that whole scene was set up to demonstrate how incredibly stronger Cloud is than Sephiroth. Plus, he's The Hero™.
How do you figure Zack is so much stronger than Cloud? Sephiroth beat him badly, and the only reason he wasn't out of it like Cloud during the trip to Midgar was because the Jenova cells didn't have any effect on him. You could argue that they had no effect because Zack is so strong, but then why did Sephiroth, who was affected, beat him like he did?
Furthermore, Cloud wasn't running on adrenaline, at least not entirely. We went through most of the game thinking of Sephiroth as some unbeatable god, and that flashback served to finally make the revelation that Sephiroth was in fact a wimp compared to Cloud.
Well, given that Zack was liberally riddled with bullets in the abdomen, whilst Cloud was stabbed in the shoulder ... Wolfwood, what *are* you on about?
HOW DID THIS THREAD GET THIS FAR?!
When you think about it...does it realy matter? NO! It is not that important! I respect all of your interests and discusions about this game but REALLY THINK about what you are debating about!
Something. Not someone. Something.
I give this discussion an "A" for members randomly pulling points out of their asses and making it look like steak dinner. Good job Kish, Wolfwood, and everyone else involved.
My two cents is that in theory, the man in the pipe could be one of the men in black cloaks in Nibelheim. Cloud doesn't read ALL of their numbers, so one of them could very well be #1.
I wouldn't say he "easily" did anything. After being thrown back about 50 feet into the ceiling, which he bounced off, he can barely speak to Cloud.Quote:
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
once again, Zack isn't any ordinary human. He easily survived a hit from sephiroth,
If by "obviously" you mean "its conceivable, sort of" then yes, its quite obvious. At no point does it say he was, in fact, injected with Jenova cells. Hojo did something to him, but it never even mentions Jenova. In fact, if you just decide not to go into his room, he'll never do anything involving the Reunion or anything else for that matter. He'll just lay there sleepin' away.Quote:
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
Vinnie obviously has Jenova cells in him.
When do any of the other Jenova infectees turn into crazy monsters? I didn't see any clones, or SOLDIERs, or anyone do that. Well, Hojo turned into something, but it was more of a mutation(I don't think he would've turned back after melding with those two monsters, which is the only time he transformed in the first place).Quote:
A helluva lot, too. That's what triggers his limit break transformations.
I'm gonna go with "he doesn't age because Hojo injected him with God knows what".Quote:
And if he just sat there "sleeping" in a coffin for all of Sephiroth's lifetime, but doesn't look like an old man, it's obvious that he was either dead, or constantly reconstructed by the jenova cells in him.
Vincent was shot ONCE, by a PISTOL. Zack was shot over in over in the torso(or maybe even the head) by a machine gun, at point blank range.Quote:
If they can keep that guy unchanged for that long, they sure as hell can reconstruct Zack after he's taken several bullets damage.
He must be so damaged that his own girlfriend doesn't recognize him. Wow.Quote:
Remember, he hasn't completely recovered when you see him.
The group mentions Sephiroth, who Vincent knows is the son of Hojo. You know, Hojo. The guy who injected Vincent's love with Jenova, completely destroyed her body, then shot Vincent and turned him into a freak.Quote:
he's still got a very similar syndrome to that which cloud had after the mako poisoning. That could be due to the intense amount of jenova activity in his body trying to repair him, which likely could have been going on within Cloud when he got "mako poisoning". As for Vincent not being called to the reunion, he WAS called. When Cloud first tells him their whole story with sephiroth, vincent just wants to go back to sleep, and says something along the lines of "more nightmares will come to me now". And according to him, he deserves the nightmares. But when they leave the basement, he just goes and joins them without gathering any information further than what they'd already told him. His motives for changing his mind weren't made clear, at least not that I remember. So it's quite possible that the Jenova cells in him subconsciously made him join them.
This isn't revelant to the issue, but I'd just like to say that was fuggin' hilarious.Quote:
Originally posted by Nemesis the Warlock
and the bloke in the pipe definitely has a head. Barrett would have pointed it out otherwise.
But anyway, yes, I guess we could assume the man is Zack...if Zack became a Jenova clone somehow, and his face was drastically altered through the apparent super healing powers the Jenova cells gave him and none of the other clones, and they decided to let him live but give his living existence no relevance to any of the entire game beyond that. So, yes, Zack may be the man in the pipe. Cloud could also secretly be Sephiroth's half-brother. Except it wouldn't be relevant to the plot in any way at all(Considering its never brought up, much like this Zack theory), so its NOT LIKELY.
Perhaps more to the point, if Sephiroth, who had the most Jenova in him of all, needed five years in the mako-crystals of North Crater to rebuild his body - and *still* hadn't finished his legs even then - after falling into the Nibelheim pit, then how come Zack - theoretically assuming he was the man in the pipe, like hell - could rebuild himself so quickly and so well, and yet not get recognised by Aeris?
Disco, I laughed out loud at the Barret comment too. I don't usually laugh at stuff on the internet.
Considering this was five years later, and the Jenova cells had no effect on him anyway, yup, I guess you got me there.Quote:
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
It sure seemed easy enough for him to bust out of the jenova tube and kill the scientist guy, then drag cloud out, didn't it?
I'm no pediatrician, but WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? You can still get Vincent on Disc 3.Quote:
It's obvious because Hojo said he "brought him back", in that letter he left, and because we all know that Hojo is totally and utterly obsessed with Jenova research. As for Vincent in the reunion, it's possible that the Jenova made him move in his sleep toward the northern crater, and your party never sees him.
1)The Jenova cells didn't turn into random horror movie monsters, they turned into Jenova monsters. Their actual genetics didn't change, it was more like they grew into the Jenova battles. Oh, and I believe Jenova Synthesis was the real Jenova.Quote:
Hojo was one, the Jenova arms were others. The ones that become Jenova birth, Jenova life, Jenova death, and Jenova Synthesis. Therefore, we can say that it must take a lot of Jenova cells to turn into a monster.
2)Combining with those other two monsters is what got Hojo on his way to mutation.
You know what they say about assuming!Quote:
And "god knows what" can be assumed as Jenova.
Could you tell me, exactly, where it says Vincent actually died? Here's a little help to get you on your way:IT DOESN'T.Quote:
Vincent was DEAD though. Jenova brought him back to life, restoring what was damaged by that one bullet. And like I said, Zack wasn't completely recovered. He took a lot more wounds, so it took a lot longer to heal.
Blah.Quote:
Yes, actually. I further explained that earlier in the topic, go read it.
That's fair, but keep in mind Hojo still destroyed Lucrecia's life. That would be enough incentive to join Cloud and go after him.Quote:
Vincent doesn't know Hojo is Sephiroth's daddie till the end of the second disc. Take him with you when you raid the SHINRA building, you'll see what I mean when you fight Hojo. Vincent was asleep suffering Nightmares because he thought HE himself was Sephiroth's father, and was feeling guilt for having his own son become some genetics experiment. And even if you were right, it doesn't change the fact that Vincent makes up his mind when you first talk to him, then changes it when you leave.
Its possible in the sense that Barret is really the Lord Jesus Christ that got lost in a dimensional warp to go fight the ShinRa in Final Fantasy VII. It doesn't say it in the game, and you never know, but it'd be pretty stupid if he was.Quote:
You really haven't paid attention, have you? I said it plenty of times, I'll say it again. I'm not here saying that he IS. I'm saying that it's possible. That there's no proof saying he isn't. I know it holds no relevance to the plot, and only would come in handy for fanfic ops, but it's possible.
It DOESN'T say "brought him back"; it says "scientifically altered him and put him to sleep." Now, I suspect it may say scientifically in one version and genetically in another, but nowhere in the Hojo's letter does he refer to bringing Vincent back from anywhere.
Watch the scene in the Whirlwind Maze again, the one in which all the Jenova-riddled cloaked men are marching toward the site of the Reunion. Sephiroth (in appearance, at least) eventually encounters them, and then what does he do? He slaughters them, all of them. I somehow don't see Vincent walking back from that.Quote:
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
Yeah, I know. If he can walk to the reunion, he can wake up and walk back, ya know.
Umm, I'm pretty sure they spent five years in the ShinRa Mansion. I mean, it might've taken a kind of long while to get to Nibelheim from there, but it can't have been that long, since they even hitched a ride at least once.Quote:
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
no, it wasn't five years later. Do you think they instantaneously teleported to midgar from nibelheim? No, it took them awhile to get there. And in any case, he still survived.
I mean, hell, FFVII itself doesn't happen over a course of years, and your party goes from end to end of the globe, several times.
What kishi said.Quote:
Yeah, I know. If he can walk to the reunion, he can wake up and walk back, ya know.
Actually, they did. Same tentacle-ish structures sprouting from the shoulders, same fat bottom-half, same breasts.Quote:
they still grew. And none of them looked like the Jenova that you see in shinra, or at nibelheim.
What lungy said.Quote:
I'm pretty sure that in the letter hojo leaves, he says that he "brought him back". Back from what? Mexico?
A woman made entirely out of pie?Quote:
Agreed.
True, but he still hated Hojo.Quote:
But vincent didn't blame hojo. He blamed himself. That's why he was sleeping. If he wanted to kill hojo, he could have done that right when hojo finished the job on him.
Not just a long shot, a really big fuggin' long shot.Quote:
It's a long shot, but could make sense. That's all I'm saying. Once again, defending the theory for fanfic purposes.
Well, this debate has gone just about as far as it can...there's an extremely, extremely slim chance Vincent was a Sephiroth clone and Zack survived(Read:No and no), which could be used for fan fiction, but, yeah. If we were to continue, it'd go like this:
Me:"So, Zack was shot repeatedly in the face with a machine gun but survived because of his Jenova healing powers, and was also a Sephiroth clone for some reason. Also, Vincent was a Sephiroth clone who headed towards the Reunion but didn't make it then went back(And apparently re-locked the door and put the key back in the safe with the monster)."
You:"Hey, it could've happened!"
...Wait, I just realized how insane your entire theory sounds. No, there is no way that man is Zack. If it was, why would he have the number tattoo? Cloud didn't get one, now did he?
I guess this debate ISN'T over, so
<Image edited by Kishi, for the sake of the children.>
Wolfwood & Dr Disco:
1) If Zack was treated with the same Jenova/Mako mix that was used on Cloud and the Clones, he was a Clone, even if he had no reaction: he'd had the same treatments.
2) Vincent was NOT a clone: whatever was done to him was done thirty-ish years before Hojo did the clones.
3) Zack did not have a number; like Cloud.
4) A locked door, stopping Vincent? The same guy who can, oh, turn into ferocious monsters and toss a solid metal coffin lid across a room with his mind? Like hell. And if he got out, how did he manage to relock the door when he'd put the key back in the safe?
5) Vincent's status as live or dead is questionable: he's been in a coffin for thirty years, no water, possibly even no air. Metabolically speaking, he must be dead. Whether or not Hojo shooting him was the cause of his death is highly debatable.
Wolfwood, you do know that Vincent enters your party with a half-full limit metre, don't you?
All of this makes so much sense, did you know you can also revive Aeris?[sarcasm]
Since no one listened to me on my initial post I decided to be more up front with it. Your attitude doesn't scare me by the way. I said before that I respect all of your opinions and I am glad and I think it is cool that you are interested into the game so deeply. I would be a hypocrite if I siad that I didn't get in any conversations such as this one. But everyone is going into circles about everything and finding the simplest things about a certain scene and REALLY streching them to suit their opinion of what happened.Quote:
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
It's possible. That's all I'm saying. For the fiftieth time in this topic....it appears that I have to say that at least every other post. But in any case, sephex, note that your sarcasm adds nothing to this debate. It makes no point. It proves nothing. All it is is an attempted mockery. We don't need it here. So until you find a way to make yourself useful, keep your mouth shut.
I personaly find that really "useless" and it aslo "proves nothing". Does the fact that the guy in the pipe may be Zack or all the stuff about Vincent keep you up at night? Is it really that important? Instead of wondering something that isn't even that important to the game, why don't you just enjoy the game and accept the fac the other peoples opinions differ.
There is nothing wrong with debating, but how many times do you have to repeat yourself before it gets old?
Getting back to(wards) the topic:
About Vincent; his limit starts half-full, and he's not at that high a level. Plus he's on his Level 1 Limit; his limit meter would fill up after a few battles, not many, as you suggest. Besides, as I said, Vincent is capable of throwing a metal coffin lid around with his mind - what's a wooden door going to do against him?
About Zack; What, precisely, are you trying to say? That Zack *could* have survived, albeit looking so unlike himself and so mentally damaged as to be, practically speaking, someone else?
THATS b*******. I stated MY opinion about EVERYONE needing to relax about certain things. Not only you. YOU chose to reply and YOU chose to take this personaly.Quote:
[i] But then, people such as yourself and Sephex try to make things personal, and turn it into a "I hate Nick" thread. [/B]
Once again. Using vulgar language and having some bad ass attitude doesn't scare anybody, so stop acting like a 13 year old.
And once again, I decided to be sarcastic becasue no one payed attention to my first post in here. IT IS MY OPINION of how I feel about certain things. It is on topic, because I am talking about how THIS TOPIC has gone to far, and people are streching facts very far just to suit thier own opinion. Thats my problem. I decided to post about this now because there has been like, 1000 topics like this that I want to talk in, but people start doing this thing where it goes to far, and it comes down to two people bitching at eachother. There is a HUGE difference between threads liek these and (rare)threads that people actualy debate in.
Bats aside (this entire thread is bats) a solid metal coffin lid is both heavier and sturdier than a mouldering wooden door.
You're reeeeaaaaally reaching here, nico.Quote:
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
It's possible that upon revival, his limit guage filled that far from his anger at hojo.
Err, since when did wood go "clang"? Vincent's coffin makes a very audible metal-on-metal noise when it shuts. Not to mention that the coffin is kinda shiny ... considering the light conditions, the materials and how long it's been since it was last polished.
Wood, last that long, in those conditions? Not a chance. That coffin is *metal*.
As for Zack ... Wolfwood, you're sticking to it and saying it's possible. We're sticking to it and say it isn't. That's it. Accept it: you will never convince everyone. I, for one, cannot see any way in which Zack could have become the pipe clone, and you're going to have to pull out something very special and heretofor hidden to change my mind in the slightest.
Guys, I never thought I'd say this, but JESUS CHRIST, let's just stop and think about what we're saying here.
No, I'm not talking about Zack here. That's practically been settled, and doesn't matter either way.
When the HELL did this Vincent thing come up anyway, and what in God's name has it degenerated to!? We've gone to arguing about Vincent being a Sephiroth clone to the goddamn material his coffin is made out of to the smurfing sound it makes when it pops off.
This is like the Zack debate, only about 7000 times stupider. Vincent might've just continued sleeping if you hadn't disturbed him, or he might've woken up, gone to the Reunion, came back, and went back to sleep. Most people(Read:me) would say that idea is insane and retarded, but who the hell cares? If there's the slightest chance that it was possible than this debate will never have a right or wrong side, so everyone just STOP POSTING because neither side is going to budge. This is as useless a debate as the "Who is the Sephiroth you follow in Disk 1?" argument, because its never perfectly clear on what happened, and so no one can win.
Funny, I seem to remember that debate being settled a few months ago ...
Or was it?Quote:
Originally posted by Koi Lung Fish
Funny, I seem to remember that debate being settled a few months ago ...
I personally believe that this if the greatest debate ever. May it never, ever end.
Sarcasm, from Kishi?
Dr Disco: You think otherwise? Well, you know where the "POst New Topic" button is.
:whoa:
Whoa!!!!!!!!
I remember thinking that I would properly only get 1 or 2 replys.
I come back to a full-scale war on the subject.
I think I've got the point now mind,
Thanks to everyone who made a contribution to it though.
Thanks
Ok, I'm going to finally reply to this thread now that things have cooled off a bit!
For ages I wondered what the significance guy in the pipe was but now that I've thought about it I reckon that he was just put there to introduce the tattoos which then keep popping up throughout the game to make you wonder what the hell they mean until you find out later. That's probably why Red XIII has one as well.
I think if it was Zack then squaresoft would give you a few more clues, I mean you could probably debate that Cid is Yuffie's grandmother if you looked hard enough and read into the game a little too far!
well, first ya gotta get Cloud in the right dress, the one that gets Coreno to pick him over Aeiris or Tifa. Then you have to enter X, SQUARE, TRIANGLE, TRAINGLE, TRAINGLE, TRAINGLE, O+X to make Cloud do the dance of the seven vails while singing row row your boat to a car wash!!
That will revive Zack. Yup *nods*:D
Xmasta: Sephiroth did not have a tattoo.
Nemesis: The Shinra troops didn't carry Zack off, they left him where they shot him.
Th code for the CPU version is the same as the code for that version that makes Tifa run around naked and preform perverse sexual acts on the party member of your choice. If you don't know that code, well then you're just sad. Yup *nods*
Ageless Fantasy: Uh, what does that have to do with the current topic?
Floris: Obviously, such healing powers have their limits. Repairing a mako-saturated body damaged or killed by a fall yet still sustained by a powerful force of will is one thing; repairing a lead-riddled body lying in one of the most mako-deprived areas of the planet is entirely another.
You guys are not even on topic at all. SCREW THIS.
YOU CAN REVIVE AERIS IF YOU GET THE UNDERWATER MATERIA AND THE RAINBOW COLORED CHOCOBO!!!!!
You can revive Aeris.
This thread has gone to far, it is a dead debate.
EDIT: No, I don't believe that, it's just that this thread has been an eyesore for quite sometime. I thought we weren't allowed to revive threads anyway?
Maxi: Pollution does not necessarily mean mako. It means mako byproducts, in the same way that consuming coal doesn't leave coal behind, it leaves coal byproducts. Zack actually has the worst chance of survival in Midgar precisely because of this; because the area has been extensively drained of mako, leaving it very low in Lifestream.
As a rule, we don't allow threads containing rumors such as these to remain open, and so I will now have to carry out the most dreadful duty of closing this thread. What a BLOODY SHAMEQuote:
Originally posted by edczxcvbnm
YOU CAN REVIVE AERIS