Okay...I have NEVER heard of this theory before. Could someone please explain it to me....or something about why she is or why she isn't equal to U?
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Okay...I have NEVER heard of this theory before. Could someone please explain it to me....or something about why she is or why she isn't equal to U?
You've never heard of it because the NAZI REICH^3 ADMINISTRATION OF THIS BOARD is trying to HIDE THE TRUTH!! They don't want us to know that R equals U, because then we'll have knowledge, and with knowledge comes power, and they're so drunk with their own power that they don't want anyone to have even a little bit more! DOWN WITH THE MODS!!!
When this becomes a flame war, it's getting closed :p It's only about saying what it is/isn't to teach ed, I'm sure he's intelligent enough to decide for himself which side he thinks is right once he know's what they are and won't need your endless bickering over it to say which ones correct for sure :p
At this very moment, the Cid's Knights are invading Bou's home to torture and deprogram him. Tomorrow we will have a new and lobotomized Bou.
I don't see why people weren't able to have mature discussions about this in the first place. Surely most of us are adults here?
Maybe not.
Anyway, some people seem to think that there is a lot of evidence to support the theory that Rinoa actually goes on to become Ultimecia.
If you do a google search for the theory you'll find their reasons.
To be honest I think that they're pretty far fetched and don't really follow but people like to persist with the theory because they feel it patches an otherwise gaping hole.
I don't think it's a gaping hole, more of a "have whatever you want happen" situation.
Square are great like that and I think the plot to FF8 is complete and makes sense without any R=U.
http://www.nanatsusaya.net/rinoa/ultimecia.html
Here's an site with an explination to save the rest of you the footwork.
There is a lot of evidence that hints at it. The reason I believe it though is simply the lack of other sensible options.
Griever has no decent explanation, not one that doesn't require huge theories being created anyway. There's a lot of foreshadowing too, and R=U fits very well when looking at Sorceresses going bad without knights, something to do with feathers, the theme of fate, a load of things that I've forgotten since it got banned.
It's never been proved correct, it just fills in holes, and I'd say is about 50% probable, I like the theory because FFVIII is too simple without it.
The other support is that it never gets any reasonable counter arguements. All the arguements I've heard either go directly against things said or shown in the game, or just go straight against common sense (how can Ultimecia die and Rinoa not for example, which goes against basic logic).
I know that doesn't explain the theory, I just thought I'd explain a biut about how previous debates go.
¤ The Rinoa = Ultimecia Theory ¤
I know what you're thinking. "How is it possible that Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same person? No way, you're crazy!" But the idea is an interesting, complicated, and very possible theory. Keep an open mind, and think about it.
The Main Point?
Ultimecia is the future Rinoa. Rinoa grows up to become Ultimecia. When Rinoa is older, some great tragedy could occur that deeply affects Rinoa and changes her slowly. This could be the death of Squall (or other loved ones) or some other disaster that happens in the FF8 world. Slowly over time, she grows more depressed, and her sorceress powers feed the dark sadness inside of her. Her sorceress powers prevent her from dying naturally and continues to live for eons alone. Eventually, gripping on the brink of insanity, she becomes Ultimecia. This would explain why Squall shows up in the game Kingdom Hearts without his love Rinoa, perhaps they were seperated.
Ultimecia's intentions?
Ultimecia/Rinoa wants to go back to the good ol times. Before tragedy would strike her, when she she was with her friends during the timeline of FF8. So she dedicates herself to going back in time. Maybe she wants to prevent the disaster that will happen, or to warn the young Rinoa of the future. Regardless, because of the long, sad evolution from Rinoa into the cold-hearted Ultimecia, she's messed up by the time she accomplishes time travel. Thus doing more evil when she gets there, than good.
Evidence?
One, Squall's ring Griever and Ultimecia's summon Griever. Coincidence that they're both the same name, and that the game put an emphasis on naming Griever? I think not. Ultimecia named her summon Griever as it was one of the memories of her past life as Rinoa. Two, they're both sorceresses. That's not a common power identity to have, sorceresses are rare. Three, Rinoa's symbol if white angel wings and Ultimecia has black angel wings. Black wings are the symbol for fallen angels, just like how Rinoa has fallen from pure white wings, to darker ones. Four, Ultimecia's castle is located near the same place as Rinoa's "Promise" flower field. The love Rinoa felt for Squall led Ultimecia back to the place she made a promise. See, she did wait for him there.
But Rinoa is good and Ulti is evil, right?
Like Squall says, "There's no right or wrong. Just two sides with different views." Anyway, anyone can attest to the fact that PEOPLE CHANGE over time. Can you honestly say you haven't changed at all during your lifetime? Most likely, in the past years, you do things you never thought you would've done years ago. Humans change constantly. Now factor in that Rinoa is leading an extraordinary life. She's in a fantasy world with lots of adventure, drama, emotions, and powers. As sad as it is to think angel Rinoa could become evil Ultimecia, remember: People change.
Why Kill SeeDs?
Obviously, after all those lonely eras of turning into Ultimecia could easily drive Ulti/Rinoa to insanity. Power corrupts. And it's quite possible she's lost it to the point where her conscious can't even recognize her friends anymore. Or maybe we dont give Ulti enough credit. SHe could've known all along how this would play out. She always said that a SeeD was prophesize to destroy her. Ulti/Rinoa knew her attempts to kill the SeeDs would bring everyone together, and did it to bring about the good relationships that resulted from her war. Deep down in her subconscious, she knew she would die. Even while her evil outside was being.. well, evil. Or maybe she wanted to kill Rinoa because she didn't want her to go through the pain she would, Ulti/Rinoa wanted to end her own life. Or she wanted to take over the world to be in control, she bad things wouldn't happen. After being unable to prevent bad things around her for so long, Ulti/Rinoa would think of such a thing.
There are many possibilities in the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory. Squaresoft left so many open ends in the story, we can only begin to imagine.
*copies from nanatsusaya.net*
This makes perfect sence but here's my theroy
Because of Ulimecia becoming more evil and corrupt and if the R=U theory is correct then my guess would be that there is some other dark force that is possibly turning Rinoa into an evil sorceress. I'd have to say that the Great Hyne (the creator of mankind in the game) might be to them as god is to us in reality and whenever there is a god there is devil, so there must be some kind of evil enitity that is sorta the opposite of Hyne and also if you noticed in the middle of disc three they state that Rinoa is a decendant of the Great Hyne. It's just a thought.
Oh Ed you shoulda slapped a big spoiler warning here.
Just to add to that there was a lot of talking in Edeas's house about Squall killing Rinoa, Sorceresses without knights becoming evil, Ultimecia probably doesn't have a knight.
It also can be safely assumed Ultimecia was not given that name as a child, and didn't look like that to begin. Both Edea and Adel look different (presumably due to their powers), I don't see why Rinoa should stay the same.
Buffy Season 6 explains how this can work believably, but if you haven't seen it it still makes sense.
I'd guess that when Rinoa became Ultimecia she prolly game up her old past and gave up here birthname and her real identity. I still think that my Great Hyne opposite theroy may have to do with Rinoa turning evil. She may have gotten possessed by the Hyne opposite which created an evil sorceress because Hyne created sorcs. and possible the Hyne opposite created evil ones also.
mmm... there is some solid evidence of R=U INSIDE the game?
crazy theory: U=Rinoa and Squall daugther ;)
Well, I personally don't believe in the theory, but I'm glad that this site makes better arguments than the first popular R=U site *shudders at the memory* Anyway, I think that you people need to calm down a little.
First thing I would like to say: Ultimecia has wings. Rinoa has wings. No. Rinoa's limit break involves her getting wings from her influx of killing adrenaline (or however you want to word "limit break") and she has wings on the back of shirt, but Rinoa Heartilly doesn't have wings. Do you see her flying around everywhere in FF8? No.
Second: It mentions somewhere in the game (sometime whilst talking to Edea; when I get the quote I'll post it) that there are other sorceress' in their time, the game only happens to focus on four of them, and that they usually hide their powers.
Third: Griever's name, although it is the name of Squall's ring, doesn't mean a lot. What if there was a GF hidden inside of it, much like Doomtrain's ring, and they discovered a GF and named it Griever because of the name of Squall's ring? If Rinoa can remember a little detail like the ring's name throughout time, then I think even a GF could remain for many years into the future.
But personally, the main reason why I think that R = U isn't true, is the fact that people are trying to find something that isn't there. In the words of Freud: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
First: Rinoa CAN grow wings and has them on her clothes. I think she might be able to keep them if she changes, given only two characters in the game relate to wings at all it seems a fairly big coincidence.
Second: Other sorceresses are around, great, doesn't really mean anything though.
Third: That is a HUGE coincidence, which needs to be explained. R=U is a way to do so and it also ties other things up, whilst adding to the story.
Xu the evidence is mainly what we have given, they're just hints, but they add up. Griever needs to be explained this is a way, Ultimecia needs to be explained this is a way, the foreshadowing needs to be explained this is a way.
Destiny is a huge part of the game, and it focuses on the main characters. The only one that it doesn't focus on is Rinoa, this covers that too.
If you look on ther back of her dress she has an angel wing pattern on it, she uses them for a limit break.
The same ones that fade to black in the final FMV.
I really dont think this is the place to be getting in an argument over this. No one can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's right or wrong, so why argue in the first place?
*George Carlin quote*Quote:
Originally posted by Tears of Stardust
In the words of Freud: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Just to point out what MJN Seifer said in the thread he linked to; you don't kill people in the game, you KO them. Ultimecia merely knocks Rinoa unconscious in the final fight, and as such, will feel no effects, therefore ripping your theory to shreds.
I thought the clue to that mainly lay in everyone who gets knocked out getting up and partying AFTER the fight.
TheAbominatrix, I can only speak personally, but I don't take part in these to prove R=U correct, it can't be done. I just feel that the theory is given a huge amount of unneccessary and unfounded critiscism, I only defend it as a reasonably plausable theory.
Besides, we're trying to explain the theory to ed, wouldn't want him given false information would we?
lolz@Ed and BOU
If there's no prove, you only have theories. Theories are fun to make. And many FF's leave people with theories. These are not rumours.
I can't see why NOT R=U, by the way. :hat:
There's evidence for and against this theory. Personally, I don't believe it, for reasons I can't be bothered explaining because I always get flamed if I dare to try.
I'd like to propose a new theory:
F=U!
That's right... Fujin is Ultimecia!
I've got evidence, too:
Both have grey hair.
Both of them speak strangely.
They've both got good reasons for disliking SeeDs.
Fujin was only too willing to go along with Seifer's scheme... why would she?
Think about it... Fujin's secret love/best friend, Seifer, was brought down by SeeD. He was ruined by that organisation. This lead to his eventual demise, which devastates Fujin. She inherits the power of a sorceress (possibly by killing Rinoa), and becomes Ultimecia. She just wants to be with Seifer, always... hence time compression, and possessing Edea and making Seifer her knight in the past.
It's all there, written between the lines... I may be onto something here! :whoa:
I agree Big D, that theory is far more believable! I can't believe I didn't see it before this.
Now you got me started: :rolleyes2
I think that Bahamut could be Tiamat in the future, corrupted by Ultimecia's influence.
1) Both are dragon GF's (same design, different colors!)
2) Both use Flare attacks (Mega Flare vs. Dark Flare!).
Also it's plausible that Ultima Weapon is Omega Weapon in the future, having lost the sword and gained a lot of HP. BTW, why is Ultima Weapon carrying Cloud Strife's Ultima Weapon? Hmm....
Okay can I just point out that R=U isn't just a random theory because it works, it explains things that don't make sense without theories.
Big D I know people say it to balance it out, but I have yet to see evidence AGAINST R=U that can't be shot down within seconds. You can either believe it or not because it's just a theory, but there is nothing I've seen that actually questions it as plausable.
The only arguement I know of that does make sense is Angelo doesn't recognise her. But I personally discount this given the lack of realism or logic in most FFVIII battles, and also Rinoa may have become unrecognisable even to her dog in the long time she's been changing.
For the last time, this is not a thread for you people to yell at eachother and try to prove this theory. Go make one to do that. There's no way to prove it inconclusively, and there's always going to be someone out there to say "Hey, that's stupid and I dont believe that because..." We answered edczxcvbnm's question. Heck, close the thread.
Noone's shouted at anyone, we aren't allowed to make a thread to argue it, and noone is claiming they can prove it conclusively. Ed asked about the theory and the arguements for and against, we're simply giving them, no hostility or even much debating involved.
Why come into a peaceful thread with no argueing twice and tell people to stop?
If a mod thinks that sounded hostile I will retract it, I am merely trying to explain that we aren't argueing or being hostile and just because this is R=U it shouldn't be assumed we are.
I didnt say there was hostility, all I'm saying is that its off topic and futile. We have the facts set down now. Stop hashing them to death.
But we haven't got all the facts set down, and there hasn't been repetition. I'm personally quite interested to hear a genuine arguement against R=U other than th Angelo one. If you read ed's post it quite clearly asked for this.
*sighs* Arguing with you is like arguing to a brick wall. You're endlessly stubborn. Though the same could probably be said to me.
He asked what it was, we gave him a page of facts. You're going to continue anyway, so forget I said anything.
ed quote:
If any mod's are annoyed by this can I ask that our little sidetrack be deleted and the thread not be closed please?Quote:
or something about why she is or why she isn't equal to U?
yeah go ahead guys I got it all saved to my HD
I heard that Square shut this down a long time ago, but you never know with online info.
Possible? Yeah...
Probable? Meh.
There are really only two things about this that can be argued, and both of them have other explainations:
1) Griever. Why is Ulti's gf named Griever (or whatever name you gave Squall's necklace)? Rinoa herself was the only one who heard this thing's name.
Problem with this: Ultimecia can go beyond time and possesses Rinoa at one point. She could have easily used it against Squall (as Griever is a symbol of Squall himself).
2) Ultimecia's Motives: Her final speech "Time... it will not wait..." yeah, that whole shpeal? Using GFs makes us forget certain things or people... Rinoa could have forgotten Squall. What if Squall died before Rinoa and she was torn apart by his death? She is a sorceress... perhaps she went nutso.
Problem with this: Too many "what ifs" involve that whole thing.
To your first point. Griever is never shown to be anything scary to Squall, in fact he likes it. With all that Squall has been through, and his determination not to let his emotions get the better of him, why go to all that trouble for something would probably have recieved a blink from Squall, and nothing from anyone else?
To your second. That isn't evidence you referenced, it's the theory. Just as all other explanations for Griever are theories. R=U is just one of those theories, and it comes with the most evidence from the rest of the game.
I agree, but most everything in FFVII and VIII is all speculation... so... it's a little hard to argue, but it can be done.Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
To your first point. Griever is never shown to be anything scary to Squall, in fact he likes it. With all that Squall has been through, and his determination not to let his emotions get the better of him, why go to all that trouble for something would probably have recieved a blink from Squall, and nothing from anyone else?
To your second. That isn't evidence you referenced, it's the theory. Just as all other explanations for Griever are theories. R=U is just one of those theories, and it comes with the most evidence from the rest of the game.
But, I never said I agreed with those points, those are just the most commonly used points ever. ^^ I don't know if I believe or disbelieve R=U theory. Like I said, it's very iffy and I don't really go for that. I suppose it is possible, I mean, it is Square... but I just have a hard time thinking that it's possible. ^^
I know, I apologise, I should know to tread carefully with wording when it comes to posting an R=U post.
I know R=U isn't proven, but I do think it is more likely than a lot of people give it credit for. If I see an arguement I disagree with or do not feel is the whole story I reply to it as I want R=U to at least be fairly criticised.
My bad though I should have put a disclaimer on that, actually from now on can people just take anything I say in here as following my above statement unless I say otherwise. Thanksadoodle.
OH I HOPE ITS TRUE BECAUSE I LOVE RINOA AND I CAN MAKE HER GOOD SHE ISNT EVIL NOT DEAD I LOVE YOU RINOA YOU ARE LIKE DARTH VADER I KNOW THERE IS STILL GOOD *CRIES*
Lol,heres the thing that makes me not believeQuote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
I know, I apologise, I should know to tread carefully with wording when it comes to posting an R=U post.
I know R=U isn't proven, but I do think it is more likely than a lot of people give it credit for. If I see an arguement I disagree with or do not feel is the whole story I reply to it as I want R=U to at least be fairly criticised.
My bad though I should have put a disclaimer on that, actually from now on can people just take anything I say in here as following my above statement unless I say otherwise. Thanksadoodle.
Where in the entire ff8 world there was there mentioned sorceresses have a long life-span?
Nowhere.Dont give me that edea-looks-the-same-after-aging-thing
Laguna team looks exactly the same,as does dr.Odine
Ok, I found this from an old R=U thread (yep this goes a looong way back...). I don't remember who posted it so I can't give any credit to him/her. Anyway, here goes:
*****************************
I strongly believe rinoa and ultimecia are the same person (ultimecia is rinoa, rinoa is ultimecia). the facts stated below show why i believe it to be true.
All of the below facts are facts, however they are not conclusive proof the theory is true, and it will never be 100% proven unless square comment on it.
Fact 1: I believe that sorceresses do not age. Why? because it never in the whole game speaks of any sorceresses dying. It speaks of adel being from the far past, yet she is still alive. Also, present day Cid looks a lot older than present day Edea. It is possible Cid was as young as Edea looks when Edea recieved her powers, making Cid age but not Edea.
If it is true sorceresses do not age, Rinoa, being a sorceress could live on and become ultimecia.
Fact 2: It is stated in the game that in order for a person to become a sorceress, a dying sorceress must pass her powers onto them, in order to die in peace.
However Rinoa does not become a sorceress in this way. She becomes a sorceress after you have fought Edea in Galbadia Garden. True you have to beat Edea, but shes not dying, nor does she die, it is never explained how Rinoa became a sorceress.
Fact 3: Now I know what you're thinking, why would Ultimecia want to kill Squall if she's Rinoa? Well there are many indications why. I believe what happened to Rinoa was, she aged and Squall didn't, and eventually he died and she lived on. Unable to take the pain she became evil. It might sound a bit wayward but read this quote from Ultimecia just before she dies:
"Reflect on your..."
"Childhood..."
"Your sensation..."
"Your words..."
"Your emotions..."
"Time..."
"It will not wait..."
"No matter..."
"...how hard you hold on"
"It escapes you..."
Time will not wait, no matter how hard you hold on it escapes you? This backs up my theory of Squall dying. She wanted to hold onto him but he died.
Fact 4: On disc 3, Squall says to Rinoa at the field next to the orphanage "I'll be here waiting for you i promise..etc..." and suddenly the whole intro makes sense.
Now is it just a coinsidence that Ultimecia's castle is placed EXACTLY next to this? You have to ask yourself, Why the hell would Ultimecia park her castle there when she has anywhere in the whole world to put it? She is waiting for Squall at the field...
Fact 5: Now you might think, why would Ultimecia kill Squall when you fight her at the end, surely this is what she'd have wanted, to be reunited with Squall. This is a valid point, however she does not recognise Squall is Squall, this is proven when Edea explains who she is, Squall approaches Ultimecia and she says "who are you!?" (or something along those lines).
Fact 6: Now this is a big indication that its true: Rinoa 'borrows' Squall's Griever Ring, yes she does get Zell to make a copy, but she never gives Squall his back, this is proven at the field when Rinoa says "I have this dream, I get all dressed up and put on your ring... etc...".
Just before you enter Galbadia Garden, you get to name the ring, (The default is Griever).
Ultimecia has a GF.......called Griever, (or whatever you name the ring). If you remember, you get Doomtrain out of Solomons Ring.
Its possible Greiver is gained from Squall's ring, which Ultimecia would have if she is Rinoa.
Fact 7: Ultimecia has black wings, Rinoa has white wings. There is a lot of emphasis placed on Rinoa's wings (on her costume, and limit). Black = Evil, White = Good. It would be a natural progression. That is backed up by these shots taken from the ending. It appears rinoa's wings are changing from white to black.
Fact 8: There are 3 FMV shots of Ultimecia in the game, all are at the ending, and last less than 1/10th of a second each, barely visible (did you notice them?). Why would Square go to all the trouble of making the FMV if no one were to see it? Square aren't stupid, they wouldn't waste time and money for nothing.
Fact 9, the biggest: Correct me if I'm wrong but Ultimecia and Rinoa have EXACTLY the same eyes, nose, mouth, face shape and hair parting point.
Just a coinsidence?
As stated before, all of the above are FACTS, however none of these prove the theory 100% but just ask yourself which is most likely:
This is a coinsidence
Or Square, being the geniuses they are, planned this....?
******************
That's it. I find those facts pretty strong...
Just wanna add to that, Rinoa didn't just become evil as a thing. It's stated clearly without a knight Sorceresses are at the risk of becoming evil and being taken over by magic.
Also I doubt Squall's ring is like Doomtrain's, it is possible and would follow in the stupid coincidence's theme of the game.
Actually I had a thought on that. The stupid coincidences actually can be sort of explained through R=U. Remember the game is based a lot on time loops.
Off the top of my head there's two.
The orphanage history. Without this knowledge, the group would never have realised that Edea was matron which would eventually lead to Rinoa not becoming a Sorceress, which would mean no Ultimecia, which would mean no trip to Trabia, no Edea getting powers and so on.
The group HAD to be connected otherwise Ultimecia would never have existed and hence a totally different time-line would have occurred.
Rinoa and Squall surviving in space. Now this is just an insane coincidence that they found the Ragnorok, I mean more than lottery winning.
Now if they'd died, there would have been no Ulti, which would mean they never would have went to space, and never been in danger to begin.
So they HAD to survive or the timelines would have been completely different.
I just thought those so I dunno what people will think of them.
There is a lot of decent evidence in that post. I'd forgotten that Ultimecia's castle was in the flower field. Isn't it also weird that in the ending, Rinoa finds Squall and they pop up in that field?
I dunno... I'm definitely not leaving it out of the question... but... yeah.
They promised to meet there, after Rinoa had that prophetic nightmare about being separated from Squall. When that dream came true, they both knew where to go to find each other.Quote:
Isn't it also weird that in the ending, Rinoa finds Squall and they pop up in that field?
Yeah, but also the fact that Ultimecia's castle is there in the future, too? I dunno... Square tweaks my brain sometimes. >D
Did Square ever give any official info on the subject? 'Cause I think they did give some on the (SPOILER) Squall-being-Laguna's-son subject at some point.
(SPOILER)Squall is Laguna's son... that was pretty easy to figure out. Especially with (SPOILER)Kiros' comment on how he looks more like his mother... and Raine in the ending... and they do mention that Raine died... I forgot how, but I think it had something to do with Laguna going after Ellone in Esthar.
However, like I said, an administrater from FFO said that Square officially said that R does not = U... then again, that's FFO... probably trying to get rid of those threads completely...
I think that there is a lot of evidence supporting the R=U theory, but it's just that, a theory.
Personally I don't care if Square come out on TV and say R isn't U. There's too much stuff in the game that doesn't make sense without it, and unless they remake, or bring out a sequel completely disproving it I'll think whatever I want of the blanks.
It all makes just as much (or as little) sense whether Ultimecia is Rinoa, Fujin, Cid, or just an evil Sorceress from way off in the future with her own goals and agenda.
Err, not really Big D. Rinoa being Ultimecia explains a lot, and is hinted at directly in the game (intentionally or not).
Other people might be Ultimecia, it is possible, but Rinoa not being Ultimecia means a lot of things are left unexplained/pointless.
k this is a birth of a whole new theories.
First of all lets try the
bite bug=cid theory.
both are weak and that is a big proof
U=U
most evidence,game fits nice
hexadragon=catrhipillar theory
eh they both look weird <.<
Like I said, that was heard on FFO, which, ask Mr. Graves, I gave him the rundown: it's a ridiculous spammed rule with no humor meant to stop annoying the mods.Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Personally I don't care if Square come out on TV and say R isn't U. There's too much stuff in the game that doesn't make sense without it, and unless they remake, or bring out a sequel completely disproving it I'll think whatever I want of the blanks.
If they ARE the same person, then things are a whole lot more pointless. Squall's feelings for Rinoa. The way everyone fought to pretect her. The very final scene of peace and happiness.Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Err, not really Big D. Rinoa being Ultimecia explains a lot, and is hinted at directly in the game (intentionally or not).
Other people might be Ultimecia, it is possible, but Rinoa not being Ultimecia means a lot of things are left unexplained/pointless.
Squall's main concern was that Rinoa could potentially 'become' Ultimecia by turning into the world's enemy. This just challenged his idea that good and evil are only matters of opinion and not fact.
Anyway, if Square says they're not the same, then I guess that seals it. Tolkiem said his works contained no allegory; therefore any allegory that people find will be purely a construct of their own minds.
I understand all the R=U evidence, in fact I know a few points that haven't been mentioned in this thread. It's strong, but not proof. There's no reason for any disbelievers to accept it, particularly in light of Square's announcement.
The principle of Sorceress succession can explain things just as well as Rinoa and Ultimecia being exactly the same person.
Believe it, or not - it doesn't make too much difference, since Square (and presumably the writers) say it isn't so.
Wheee... We get faith from the mods that we can do this without all tearing eachothers throat out. Yay us!
Anyway, one thing I think one needs to consider is that in the FF world, things happen because the game designers want them to. If Rinoa says she wished she could make time stop, and not too long later says she expresses the hope that, should she turn bad, Squall's gunblade will pierce her heart, that indeed gives no iron cast proof within the FF world that she is. But one can wonder why the heck the designers would have put it in, if not to hint at a R=U. Yes, it is a possibility that a succesor of Rinoa is Ultimecia, but that would make a whole slew of comments rather pointless.
And to say that the end loses it's meaning? I would say au contraire' (being a pedantic ass of course, ón the contrary'is too plebian for me) Squall's entire problem isn that he refuses to get close to people for fear of losing him. With Rinoa, he has overcome that fear. He KNOWS he will lose her, in the most painful way (that's what the tear at the end means IMHO) and yet he is still close to her. He has accepted that with love comes pain, and is now prepared to take the bad with the good...yay! The lesson: If you're only gonna get close to people that you're sure off are gonna be with you forever, you'll end up alone... makes a nice ending.
In other news, I've heard from someone over the intenet (now there's a reliable source for you) that Square said the theory is true, only that person was a non-believer and assumed it was just pacifying the fans. Or perhaps Square just likes to toy with our minds, and this is all part of their plan to conquer the world, because ALL coorporations want to do that.
I think Rand Al'Tor covered a lot of what was going to say so I'll just ask a few qeuestions.
Can you explain Griever, finding the Ragnorok in time, everyone living in the orphanage without using a theory?
If you use a theory can you use one with many huge hints in the game, that doesn't require an insane coincidence in some form, and that can be looked at logically and still be taken seriously.
Even if Square said they hadn't intended R=U, why does that mean we can't see it as a likely possibility. Do Square control all of our thoughts on their games, and without putting anything in an FFVIII game that disproves it do we have to accept whatever they say about things that aren't included.
Big D, like I said dozens of times ^~, that information was from Final Fantasy Online Forums.
That... place...sucks. The mods were getting sick of the R=U threads, closing them all the time. Suddenly, not even two days later, that same mod says that all threads concerning R=U are banned because I'm annoyed with them. Oh, yeah, Square e-mailed "us" and said that the theory is false.
~.~ Dunno if I can take that to be true, ya' know?
Ah. Perhaps FFOnline got tired of endless, unresolved debates on R=U? It wouldn't be the first time the issue has been banned from somewhere. Some discussions always end the same way.
[q=PhoenixAsh]Can you explain Griever, finding the Ragnorok in time, everyone living in the orphanage without using a theory?
[/q]R=U hardly provides conclusive proof for all of these. Griever, though, is a good point.
However, let's look at a possible fact pattern.
Squall buys his Revolver gunblade, which is decorated with the winged lion icon. He also obtains some jewellry with the same icon. It's just a winged lion, nothing special, even though it's a prominent symbol that's re-used on a number of products. Now, Squall likes lions, so he decides to give a name to the winged lion on his stuff and calls it 'Griever' for no real reason. He gives his ring to Rinoa who later becomes evil. She knows she'll have to fight Squall, so she looks at the ring and decides to create a giant monster which looks a little like a winged lion, and calls it 'Griever'. This is somehow supposed to give her an advantage over Squall.
Not very plausible. As I've always maintained, evidence suggests the GF Griever always existed, and is reperesented by the symbol we know so well. Squall, because of his appreciation for lions, wears this symbol. Since Griever's so powerful, Ultimecia acquired it for her own purposes. It's highly unlikely that Griever was carried in the ring, since that ring is evidently part of the same 'set' as Squall's necklace and gunblade. Remember, lots of Christians wear a cross on a necklace, because it's the symbol of Christ who's very important to them. They feel an affinity for him and everything Christianity represents. They don't think that Christ's spirit lives in the necklace, nor do they wear it because they like everyone who was crucified. Cross jewellry exists because it's the recognised symbol of Christ and Christianity. I believe the same goes for Squall's stuff. It'd be strange for a gunblade manufacturer to brand all of its produce and accessories with a winged lion motif unless it meant something. It'd be even stranger if Squall just decided that this symbol should be named 'Griever'.
Now, here's something to consider...
When Edea was under Ultimecia's control, she had great insight into Ultimecia's thoughts, motives and intentions. Edea never once mentioned or even suggested that Ultimecia was in any way familiar to known to her or any of the others. A strange oversight, considering how important that information would have been.
Also, when Squall confronts Edea (who's being possessed by Ultimecia) she shows no glimmer of recognition or past love.
"So, you're the legendary SeeD who's destined to face me" is as personal as she gets. If Squall was that important to Ultimecia, whe'd have had a slightly more emotive reaction in my opinion.
FFVIII, like any FF, is filled with mysteries and coincidences which require conjecture or theory to explain them. PhoenixAsh mentioned the low likelihood of Squall and Rinoa finding Ragnarok in space. It was, as he said, a 'necessary coincidence', since it's known that Rinoa's powers will eventually become Ultimecia's. This is not proof of R=U, simply a necessity of the Sorceress Succession process. Besides, the game would've been pointless if they both just suffocated in space.
Surely you all know about the significance of "Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec" - "Succession of Witches" and "Love" anagrammed? The emphasis on "succession" is strong support for what the characters in the game say about the fact that Rinoa's powers will be passed on and eventually reach Ultimecia.
Just my opinion. I'm personally not sure about R=U. I'd rather not believe it in its strictest sense. However, it's a matter of opinion. If you believe it, then it's true for you. If you don't believe it, then that's hardly a big deal.
TheAbominatrix made a wonderful contribution to this thread:Quote:
For the last time, this is not a thread for you people to yell at eachother and try to prove this theory. Go make one to do that. There's no way to prove it inconclusively, and there's always going to be someone out there to say "Hey, that's stupid and I dont believe that because..." We answered edczxcvbnm's question. Heck, close the thread.
But if we're only goinna go after the easy debates, what's the fun is that. Whaddaya prefer. A R=U debate for the umpteenth time, or having everyone agree YET AGAIN, that Squall is Laguna's son.Quote:
Ah. Perhaps FFOnline got tired of endless, unresolved debates on R=U? It wouldn't be the first time the issue has been banned from somewhere. Some discussions always end the same way.
quote:
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Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Can you explain Griever, finding the Ragnorok in time, everyone living in the orphanage without using a theory?
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Not very plausible and not possible either. Squall himself names the lion Griever IIRC. In another debatethe point was raised whether HE named the Lion Griever, or if he named it Griever, AFTER a GF. I find the first possibility the most probably, since if it was the second, Square WOULD have mentioned this GF before I think. Squall: "I named my ring after the mythical Guardian Force Griever, blablabla...whatever." instead of "It's a lion, known for it's strength and Pride, it's name is Griever."Quote:
Squall buys his Revolver gunblade, which is decorated with the winged lion icon. He also obtains some jewellry with the same icon. It's just a winged lion, nothing special, even though it's a prominent symbol that's re-used on a number of products. Now, Squall likes lions, so he decides to give a name to the winged lion on his stuff and calls it 'Griever' for no real reason. He gives his ring to Rinoa who later becomes evil. She knows she'll have to fight Squall, so she looks at the ring and decides to create a giant monster which looks a little like a winged lion, and calls it 'Griever'. This is somehow supposed to give her an advantage over Squall.
One, how good would Edea know thisQuote:
Now, here's something to consider...
When Edea was under Ultimecia's control, she had great insight into Ultimecia's thoughts, motives and intentions. Edea never once mentioned or even suggested that Ultimecia was in any way familiar to known to her or any of the others. A strange oversight, considering how important that information would have been.
Two: Would YOU tell them if you were in her shoes? Oh, Squall, Rinoa. That evil Sorceress from the future? That's Rinoa. You can't escape fate. Have a nice day.
Gf's, memory loss. Yes it's a tad lame, but it's been used in the game before. All she knows is that in the past there were some SeeD who travelled to the future (her present) so she goes to the past to get rid of the pests ASAP. (An interesting note is that in HER future, she would KNOW they left victorious. But she could assume that IF she would succeed in surpress time, fate would become irrelevant)Quote:
Also, when Squall confronts Edea (who's being possessed by Ultimecia) she shows no glimmer of recognition or past love.
"So, you're the legendary SeeD who's destined to face me" is as personal as she gets. If Squall was that important to Ultimecia, whe'd have had a slightly more emotive reaction in my opinion.
True, the presence of the Ragnarok needs not mean anything to me either. But plenty of things are said, done and shown that are NOT neccesary to help the plot. And don't forget that there IS no coincidense as such. Everything that happens, happens because some guy in far away Japan decided it had to be so. That can be for one reason, that can be for another reason.Quote:
FFVIII, like any FF, is filled with mysteries and coincidences which require conjecture or theory to explain them. PhoenixAsh mentioned the low likelihood of Squall and Rinoa finding Ragnarok in space. It was, as he said, a 'necessary coincidence', since it's known that Rinoa's powers will eventually become Ultimecia's. This is not proof of R=U, simply a necessity of the Sorceress Succession process. Besides, the game would've been pointless if they both just suffocated in space.
I would think the Ultimecia-Edea-Rinoa (yes, I know Edea has some powers of her own outside of Ulti's and there's Adel) is plenty of succesion to explain the beginning. Someone even gave a nice explanation that their names, together with the succesion thing are in SUPPORT of R=U. Have to dig that up again.Quote:
Surely you all know about the significance of "Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec" - "Succession of Witches" and "Love" anagrammed? The emphasis on "succession" is strong support for what the characters in the game say about the fact that Rinoa's powers will be passed on and eventually reach Ultimecia.
The day I find things as this a big deal is the day I should stop playing video games. However, I remain convinced the designers DID mean it this way. But as you say, to each their own.Quote:
Just my opinion. I'm personally not sure about R=U. I'd rather not believe it in its strictest sense. However, it's a matter of opinion. If you believe it, then it's true for you. If you don't believe it, then that's hardly a big deal.
I also reserve my own oppinion about abinomatrix post. Of course we should not yell at each other. But if we're only gonna do discussions were we can be absolutely sure everyone will agree at the end, this place'll get real boring REAL fast. The discussion isn't half the fun, it's all the fun, any of you suddenly become enlightened ;) , that's an extra.
Rand Al'Tor again covered a lot of what I had to say. Though I have to disagree that coincidences are unimportant, they're the entire basis of R=U, giving a more likely explanation to a series of insanely large coincidences. Oh and she went back for Ellone, not SeeDs.
Big D I'll concede to the space thing, it could mean either, though I can't remember if a Sorceress had to be near anyone to pass on powers when they died for certain, or if it just happens.
That still leaves the orphanage. Though like I said before I just came up with them, I'm the only person so far to use them for R=U that I know of so they're fairly unimportant.
Griever was never thought to have made to fight Squall. It's actually one of the most common counter examples, which I have several times pointed out makes no sense when thought through.
I had quite a discussion on TheAbominatrix's post, and explained why that was wrong too, but that's beside the point.
One: Edea knew about the rest of Ultimecia's plans, her personality and some details about her life.Quote:
Originally posted by Rand Al'Tor[q=Big D] Now, here's something to consider...
When Edea was under Ultimecia's control, she had great insight into Ultimecia's thoughts, motives and intentions. Edea never once mentioned or even suggested that Ultimecia was in any way familiar to known to her or any of the others. A strange oversight, considering how important that information would have been.
[/q]
One, how good would Edea know this
Two: Would YOU tell them if you were in her shoes? Oh, Squall, Rinoa. That evil Sorceress from the future? That's Rinoa. You can't escape fate. Have a nice day.
Two: She'd have a tough time not hinting at it, even unconsciously. She might have been reluctant to help Rinoa get to Esthar to find treatment when she was in a coma, she'd certainly have been very cautious around Rinoa later, rather than just giving a few words of advice. As for fate... the future is malleable, some believe. Prior knowledge could potentially be used to change the future and prevent a tragedy, although the subtleties of temporal mechanics are open to debate.
I don't understand if Ultimicea is Rinoa, why would she fight herself in the last battle?
I can explain finding the Ragnorak:Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Can you explain Griever, finding the Ragnorok in time, everyone living in the orphanage without using a theory?
Square employee 1: Ok, we need some ideas for the outing in space, people.
Square employee 2: Ooh, let's have Squall and Rinoa floating through space together and about to suffocate.
Square employee 1: Good idea! And then they could come across the Ragnarok, the airship of the game.
Square employee 2: No way! That's too much of a coincidence! Do you know what the chances of them coming across the Ragnarok in space are? There's more chance of winning the lottery!
Square employee 1: What do you propose then?
Square employee 2: Well if they die it would be more realistic.
Square employee 1: So you want to kill off the two main characters of which the majority of the plot is based upon?
Square employee 2: Yes.
Square employee 1: You're fired.
True, but if we say that Ultimecia herself has forgotten about being Rinoa (most likey as she doesn't recognise them) then she can't betray to Edea what she doesn't remember can she?Quote:
One: Edea knew about the rest of Ultimecia's plans, her personality and some details about her life.
Consider that these are 'the fated children' I very much doubt so. Edea would know (from Ulti) that Rinoa would have to be there in the final battle (since Ulti recognises them as 'the ones destined to face her' (and tries to cut that destiny short') Besides, Rinoa hasn't actually DOEN anything bad, so I don't think Edea would actively let her die, though she DOES try to prevent her from going evil. (Telling her to keep a knight)Quote:
Two: She'd have a tough time not hinting at it, even unconsciously. She might have been reluctant to help Rinoa get to Esthar to find treatment when she was in a coma, she'd certainly have been very cautious around Rinoa later, rather than just giving a few words of advice. As for fate... the future is malleable, some believe. Prior knowledge could potentially be used to change the future and prevent a tragedy, although the subtleties of temporal mechanics are open to debate.
Hootenanny
The idea is that using GF's has eroded Ulti/Rinoa's memory to the point of not recognising them.
Oh, and regarding the paradox things... (nobody mentioned it, but I\m trying to be ahead of you)
Rinoa killing Ulti gives no problems. That's a case of the grandmother killing the granddaughter. It just means you just sealed your own death date.
Ulti killing Rinoa would indeed give problems. Luckily, people only fall KO in battle. But hey, what if everyone loses? Well, since that's a Game over, you can wonder whether you should take that into account. Can such a thing happen in a world with fate. In any case, if Ulkti would actually kill Rinoa, ulti would seriously mess up the fabric of space and time...
...
Wait... that was what she was DOING all along wasn't it? In between the compressing of all time into a single point, what's one little paradox after all? And in ANY game with time travel, you KNOW you're gonna have stuff like thst. Just like Chrono Trigger.
So let me get this straight, at the time of the final battle, Ultimicea has already done all this before but as Rinoa helping Squall and the others to kill herself, but she doesn't remember any of this because of the erosion of her memory due to GFs. So if she cant remember any of this taking place, she must also not remember Squall, so how does she remember where Squall told them to meet when she built her fortress there?
...and I thought Back to the Future 2 was complicated.
Hootenany both Griever and the castle would probably have come well before Rinoa's memory faded. As her memory is the reason for Griever, I imagine he probably started off looking a little friendlier but that's just me.
As for Rand Al'Tor's points about deaths in the final battle, the entire party can die in just the same way Laguna and Co. can (I think, don't remember if I've lost with them). They shouldn't be able to, but there's evidence in the game that they can. Everything else was true.
Big D Edea didn't actually know Rinoa very well, she wasn't at the orphanage, and isn't even concious until well after they've both left Esthar. So a flash of a twisted, evil of person who's lost their memories is unlikely to make her leap to the conclusion.
Hootenanny.
Regarding the 'why does she build it right there'things?
(romantic mode) in her hearts of hearts, she remembered she was waiting for someone there
Actually, in a rather twisted way, she WAS waiting for him right there... (No, not like she KNEW it, but there's a dramatic irony in it)
And this stuff is what you get with time travelling...
edit: I think that we could say that the 'physics'of FFVIII are that altering the course of time is not possible. Ellone and Ultimecia both tried, and both failed (Ellone attempted to have Laguna be in Winhill when Squall was born, Ultimecia wanted to stop the flow of time completely) , to fight fate. Of course, making it IMPOSSIBLE for you to lose makes a bad game. And as Phoenix mentioned (trout, why did I never think of that?) a game over during Laguna flash backs leads as much to a paradox as a Rinoa dies at Ulti's hands game over.
Surely fighting against your younger self, your love, your childhood friends and your dog would bring back some memories. Not to mention every time you looked in the mirror you'd see the evil sorceress you once defeated.
Nope, Gf's can be troublesome like that. After all, Zell, Quistis, Selphie, Seifer and Squall didn't recognise each other as coming from the orphanage. Nor did they remember the Matron. And a powerful GF as Griever might further destroy those memories.
And if Rinoa IS Ultimecia that DOES mean she has lived quite some years... multiple generations from the future and all that. No, it has never been conclusively proven that Sorceresses can live longer then others, but not disproven either, and when we're talking divine powers (Sorceress powers come from Hyne) these things aren't self evident I would say.
Well, GF amnesia can't be that bad. All the characters recovered their memories when they were prompted by Irvine and each other, so my theory is that GFs merely suppress memories while they're being junctioned.
I've never had a magical spirit living in my brain, yet I too have difficulty remembering anyone from my kindergarten. Some things simply fade over time.
Hooteneanny has made some good points, in my opinion.
Time is very flexible in FFVIII. When Ellone projected Squall and co into the minds of Kiros, Ward and Laguna, history was altered quite considerably. All of the magic and GFs from the future became available to those three in the past; they were stronger in battle, and their actions and decision were affected accordingly. These changed were slight, but they were changes nonetheless.Quote:
Originally posted byRand Al'Tor
I think that we could say that the 'physics'of FFVIII are that altering the course of time is not possible. Ellone and Ultimecia both tried, and both failed (Ellone attempted to have Laguna be in Winhill when Squall was born, Ultimecia wanted to stop the flow of time completely) , to fight fate. Of course, making it IMPOSSIBLE for you to lose makes a bad game. And as Phoenix mentioned (trout, why did I never think of that?) a game over during Laguna flash backs leads as much to a paradox as a Rinoa dies at Ulti's hands game over.
Not to mention Time Compression itself, which is a pretty profound alteration.
Oh, well done to everyone for remaining civil. Keep it up!:)
Actually time isn't altered by that. Laguna and co. had the powers when they went through it. It just happened that effect preceded cause in this case.
While all of Hootenany's points were indeed reasonable, only one can only be argued through speculation that I can see.
That being why doesn't Rinoa realise. Well she's had a lot longer to forget, her mind has been warped by magic, and it took Squall and co. a hell of a long time and someone there to tell them before they remembered.
Actually two if you count remembering the place, but that just gets explained with the R=U theory if looked at from start to finish.
because everyone has thier own side and few people know how to properly argue and just restate thier comments and add insults to make it seem like they have more arguements. also it's a pointless thing to discuss anyways because even if you are able to conclusively prove it (which you aren't so people will ALWAYS disagree and cause arguements with the same evidence presented again [see above] ) then all that'll happen is you'll say "Hm. So 'r' *IS* 'u'. Neat." and that'll be that. why bother?Quote:
Originally posted by Prodigy
I don't see why people weren't able to have mature discussions about this in the first place. Surely most of us are adults here?
True, but if Ulti has been Rinoa, she has probably used GF's for a long, loooong time.Quote:
Well, GF amnesia can't be that bad. All the characters recovered their memories when they were prompted by Irvine and each other, so my theory is that GFs merely suppress memories while they're being junctioned.
I've never had a magical spirit living in my brain, yet I too have difficulty remembering anyone from my kindergarten. Some things simply fade over time.
As PhoenixAsh said. It's questionable that those WERE changes. Was Ellone's attempts to cheat fate by sending them back not fated as well? And did not Laguna and such have 'the Faeries'in their head 'from the start'? Either that or the only changes you can do ARE minor changes. Ellone seems to have given up on changing the past anyway.Quote:
Time is very flexible in FFVIII. When Ellone projected Squall and co into the minds of Kiros, Ward and Laguna, history was altered quite considerably. All of the magic and GFs from the future became available to those three in the past; they were stronger in battle, and their actions and decision were affected accordingly. These changed were slight, but they were changes nonetheless.
.And Time compression would indeed have been quite an alteration. It failed too.Quote:
Not to mention Time Compression itself, which is a pretty profound alteration
...You might want to edit that post so that it's a little easier to read and understand... :p
Altering the past is altering the past, whether it's fated or not, whether it's major or not. Laguna never had any GFs originally; every time he used one of Squall's summon spells, events in the past were changed. Time Compression succeeded enough to allow Squall and co to pass into the future, thus proving that events can be altered from what they're 'meant to be'.
Whoops... *gets to work*Quote:
...You might want to edit that post so that it's a little easier to read and understand...
My point would be that Laguna had those faeries in his head from the beginning. Heck, one might say it wasn't possible for Laguna to SURVIVE everything that happened to him without Squall and co. So it's the classical case that when you try to alter the past, you are in fact just making sure it happens exactly as it was supposed to be, because even your attempt to cheat fate was fated. Squall aided Laguna, there never WAS a time when Laguna didn't have the faeries helping him out. Ellone didn't change anything.Quote:
Altering the past is altering the past, whether it's fated or not, whether it's major or not. Laguna never had any GFs originally; every time he used one of Squall's summon spells, events in the past were changed. Time Compression succeeded enough to allow Squall and co to pass into the future, thus proving that events can be altered from what they're 'meant to be'.
What was meant to be then? Ultimecia emntions (while in Edea form) that'the fated children are the one destined to face her'. And lo and behold, they do later on. Ultimecia was the one trying to alter the past (the one where the fated children dissappear from their time and return victorious, as in the ending movie) and she fails. The fated children never messed with fate. They did exactly as Ultimecia had known they would. After all, in the óriginal'timetable the fated children must have one, because if not, there'd be no timetable, as time would have been compressed, and the years between them wouldn't exist.
If Rinoa did forget who she was, how come she called herself Ultimecia all of a sudden?
well...if she'd have forgotten even her name (and who knows what prolonged GF exposure might do, Squall and co are still pretty young) she'd need a new name. Considering she plans to be the ultimate and final Sorceress, I guess Ultimecia has a ring to it.
Look at the alternative. You really think someone named a baby Ultimecia? The name itself is a clue to R=U in this way, albeit a small and pretty irrelevant one.
...
wellll... to the defence of the naysayers... one could come up with the argument Ultimecia turned out as she did because her parents gave her a bloody stupid name.... ;)
Or she could of just changed her name when she decided to become evil.. :rolleyes2
Well if you want to be serious and sensible about it....
nah, don't think the weirdness of the name has to mean something really...either way.
It doesn't ADD a huge amount, but it shoots down that particular counter arguement.
Just like Ultimecia looking different to Rinoa doesn't add to the theory, but given Adel and Edea both changed appearance logically so should Rinoa therefore shooting down THAT counter arguement.
Finding evidence that supports something is no more important than making sure nothing actually damages it as a theory IMO.
im pretty sure r=u
cuz wen zell gab rinoa da griever ring he copied... dat was prolly wat ulti used to sumon griever later...
da time compression things... if u understand it... ull kinda see dat r= u... but im not entirley sure
There's another argument for R=U that noone has mentioned yet. When Rinoa is posessed by Ultimecia a weird reaction occurs. This reaction never happens when ultimecia posess anyone else. Why? Because she is posessing herself, things get weird.
The most important argument for R=U tho is as rand says. This is a game. In the real world there are coincidences. Not in game worlds. In a game world everything that happens is the result of some guy actually adding it to the game. And people don't add things to games for no reason. Why did they put all these little hints in? Especially the "I want time to stop" "I want squalls gunblade to pierce my heart" "A sorceress needs a knight" things.
If you want to know the Truth...everything is here: http://arcade.ya.com/sirlaguna/opinion8.html
I hope you know something about spanish.
I believe the ultimecia = rinoa part sums up almost every used fact in this theory, however most of the arguments seem like plain speculations (specially the part concerning the aging of a sorceress).
Even though it's far for being an universal prove, it's pretty useful to know the important points of the theory.
BTW - the Ultimecia = Hyne theory is quite interesting.
Way earlier in this discussion someone mentions you see Rinoas wings turn from white to black in one of the FMVs. Where exactly can I find it? And I have spotted the three slides of CG Ultimecia, Her nose doesnt look like Rinoas, but I do like the R=U theory, i read the link posted by someone with fuill in depth analysis, and I am persuaded. Maybe FFVIII was made in a way that if it were successful enough that square could use these holes and such to make a FFVIII-2. And if it didnt do well and decided not to make a part 2, they can just deny it all. Remember, we're all prolly playing FFX-2 now, who wouldve thought? Was there evidence in FFX to allow a sequal in comparison to FFVIII? And was there just enough or just a little to not create a part 2 incase FFX didnt do so well? And also maybe FFVIII is created in a way that the end is a beginnign and you just start all over playing again, and again, and again...
Dude, Ultima Weapon's sword is huge. Cloud's buster sword isn't that big, not by a long shot.
1 more .... SPOILERS !!! When =U= was ard disc 2 , she was trying to get Ellone ? Why the answer is (i tink ) =U= had gone crazy and wanted to experienced the past as she gad gone crazy after the time she had waited for Squall .. She had forgotten the past .. She had Griver which was a gf (which i tink was found not long after squall n the rest died (all normal ppl age ) ....And during the time she had waited she gone crazy but remembered the Ellone Machine and wanted to bring her to the future to feel the past ... :tongue:( Dun scold me if im wrong )
Someone said somewhere in the end you can see Rinoas wings turn black like ultimecias. Where? I wanna see!
There are lots of very short clips in the ending FMV, some of them are quite odd, even disturbing. There's the image of Squall with no face, then a sequence where Seifer's, Rinoa's and Ultimecia's faces flash by, practically superimposed. Rinoa's amazing technicolour wings are probably a part of that sequence, which is shown right before Squall envisages Rinoa's space-helmet shattering.
yea, i checked that sevral times, i ripped the game in order to see, but still i saw nothing of rinoas black wings, although the other things they show is quite kewl. Their are lots of layered screens happening at once, i think i counted 4 at one point and you see ultimecias face, but still no wings. I was wondering if it were in some other part of the game, like maybe in the bubbles from time compression...
During hte ending FMV, Squall imagines a pair of white wings unfurling from Rinoa's back, just like they do during Angel Wing. Perhaps they turn black just before the end of that clip? I'm not sure, just a possibility.
Anyway, "Rinoa's wings turning black" isn't compelling proof that Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same person; after all, every Sorceress has some kind of "wings" or head-dress adorning her shoulders. It could merely be a symbol for what Squall and Rinoa discuss at the flower fields in disc three - the fact that Rinoa had become a Sorcerss, and therefore could be corrupted by her power and turn "evil" like others before - and after - herself.
I found some pictures here:
http://www.dman.orcon.net.nz/Site/Te.../rutheory.html
Ok OK Ok thats awesome, can't believe someone spent some time superimposing pictures into one another. I can se rinoa looking like ultimecia now!!
I do remember seeing that area where it looks like he wings turn black. I remember constantly playing back that part to see but I was persuaded that it was a shift in the lighting but i could be mistaken.
:whoa:
oh, and then I read part two of the theory at the website and they just shoot everyhting down.
but the criticizers dont exaclty have the best arguments (superimposing faces black wings...etc) I mean an example is that only the eyes and mouth of rinoa and ultimecia look like not the facial structure. However, theres thing called maturing. Im sure ultimecia has a different chest structure also from rinoas by fact that shes older.
anyway still stand behind the idea that it was made to be taken both ways incase square wanted to make a FFVIII-2, they would make rinoa ultimecia, but if they didnt want to, they would just say ultimecia was her own person.
Like FFX and FFX-2, actually i wouldnt think they could or would make a part 2 for X, I thought it was all closed with a different approach to the ending...
(Final Fantasy VIII-2 makes its debut March 3rd, 2006 for the Playstation - Zero)
Edit by Big D: Please don't double-post, use the 'edit/delete' button if you'd like to add more to one of your posts.:)
Also, the idea of the GF Griever coming from Squall's ring is faintly absurd. Squall's ring isn't some mystical artefact from the distant past, it's a product - a manufactured item bearing an image of the legendary winged lion, Griever. He bought it from a shop, just like his gublade and necklace, which are also adorned with the Griever icon. If I draw a monster on a piece of paper, that doesn't mean there's a magical spirit living in the paper...
The second part of that article seems pretty clear in asserting that Square has rejected the theory, but then it also says that they "have not been able to find the origins of Square's reply. "
I'm sure we went through earlier that Griever didn't have to COME from the ring, the theory probably makes more sense if it didn't.
Piping in here, I have to say I'd agree with that. The GF itself could've come from anywhere. But throughout the game, you can name GFs whatever you please (heck, I called one of 'em 'Sparky' in my first game since I couldn't figure out how to pronounce its name XD; ). so you can assume that tradition continues on even after the end of the game. So I'd say the fact that its name matches the name of Squall's ring, whatever you call it, is the real significant factor.Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
I'm sure we went through earlier that Griever didn't have to COME from the ring, the theory probably makes more sense if it didn't.
'Course, this is all speculation. XD; *hides*
Did it say anywhere in the game that Squall bought the ring from a shop? I dont rmember.
and also, you can't compare this world (reality) with FFs by saying just because you draw a lion or whatever on a piece of paper it doesnt mean it has powers...etc. These characters what... draw MAGIC from a RUBY DRAGON.
So why wouldnt a piece of metal, that squall somehow obtained, have or not have the spirit of a GF in FF world, just like solomons ring anyway?
And yes, maybe the GF was named Griever and had no connection with the ring, or squall and party. What a coincidence, across generations and especially in the same game.
The fact that WHATEVER you name that ring it is the same name in the future. So the time and place where squall names the ring is directly proportionate to influencing the name of the GF in the future.
So what s possible? some galbadian seed overheard the ring being named while fighting in battle and eventually the name becomes so popular Ultimecia decides to name her GF the same name. Or maybe it had to do with Rinoa present (r=u theory) Or edea heard it out the window of GG and therefore Ultimecia heard it and decided to pick on a weakspot of squall (HA I will name the GF that will destroy you the same name as your ring, that will make you cry...)
It can be the name of a famous mythological creature that was reproduced on the gunblade and necklace...etc. But it doesnt matter if you decide the change the name, the name is changed in the future.
i say it again, possibly, it was all incase square wanted to make a FFVIII-2, they would have something to work from. And if they confessed anyway to that a sequal was probable and didnt happen, would that ruin their image, or cause some sort of demand for a game it seems not many FF fans enjoyed? Im asking you guys.
There's definitely a connection between the image on Squall's ring and the GF Griever; however, I'm contending that the connection is pretty simple:
The design on the ring is just a picture of a legendary creature, i.e. Griever. Griever's also on his gunblade, necklace, and who knows where else. A popular icon for engraving or carving, apparently. The image of Griever is a winged, fire-wreathed lion, similar enough to the GF. It's never stated that Squall bought the ring, but then it'd be pretty weird if he found a mystical, magical ring and never bothered to look into its powers, then went ahead and bought a sword and necklace with exactly the same animal drawn on them.
Square has said that there are no plans to make a sequel to VIII. They've said it quite a few times, if I remember right.
The Greiver ring belonged to Laguna I believe, and he gave it to Raine. I'm pretty sure that was how it happened.
Big D didnt say that meant that Greiver was completly unconnected. Might wanna read that again.
Im sure we dont want to make a big deal or debate on this, I dont.
Square can say they never wanted to make a sequal to FFVIII or anything and say it many times over. But it doesnt mean they telling the truth. I am not saying they arent telling the truth. I am saying incase they wanted too, they preped FFVIII enough to stretch it. And if sales werent up they could can it and that was the end of it. so it was.
Remember we are playing FFX-2 now (some of us) I wouldnt have thought a part two was possible, but hey.
And corporations can lie. Its easier to say No Sequal than going into a detailed conversation with the consumer and talk growth and decay charts.
I overlooked the Laguna giving the ring to Raine, never noticed tll now.
That'd be sweet if it was true, but I'm pretty sure that the ring he gave her was a plain gold or silver band, no design on it.Quote:
Originally posted by TheAbominatrix
The Greiver ring belonged to Laguna I believe, and he gave it to Raine. I'm pretty sure that was how it happened.
Squall doesn't actually name it in that scene; he simply tells the name to Rinoa. The game lets the player decide on what the animal is called, basically. Just like when you name the characters at the start, you're not changing their name, just confirming a detail.Quote:
The fact that WHATEVER you name that ring it is the same name in the future. So the time and place where squall names the ring is directly proportionate to influencing the name of the GF in the future.
The image appears nowhere else in the game, and is never mentioned by anyone but Squall. Rinoa doesn't even recognise it. It would seem odd for it to be a legendry GF, popular enough for a brand of jewellery to be made based on it.
The theory that Rinoa/Ultimecia CREATED the GF seems by far the most sensible and requires the least guesswork IMO.
No-one mentions Odin, or even knows that he's a GF. Yet we know that (in the game) he's a legendary dark swordsman of yore.
My guess was simply that the Revolver Gunblade Co decided to use the Griever image on its weapons and associated products. Squall's not exactly childish about anything except girls, so he wouldn't give a name to an anonymous animal shown on his favourite stuff.
i mite be the only one who thinks that griever is SQUALL's trademark and that he had it engraved onto his sword, carved out onto his ring, and made into a shape to be worn around his neck by his request to whoever he purchased his gear from. thats wut i always thought, guess i coulda been wrong. odin is never mentioned, neither does he have merchandise. griever is never mentioned, yet he has merchandise anyways ?
edit: also .. i dont believe revolver gunblade co placed griever on all their products either. i dont think its on seifer's gunblade and i doubt its on anyone else's besides squall because he had it engraved through a request
Good point... Griever is like a personal 'totem' for Squall, but if it's totally a product of his imagination, then he's even more unhinged than I thought.
Hardly, Squall never had anyone he could rely on to stay by him, or a strong father figure. The idea that he created a mascot that symbolised what he looked up to isn't a particular stretch.
It seems more like Squall to respect what he hopes to see in himself than be some kind of obsessive fan.
ok then,
so if it were squalls trademark then it has a connection to the GF griever as a personal shot too squall?
I agree, havent seen Odin merchandise anywhere, nor gilgamesh, so why would their be griever. The simple fact that you can name Griever and Ultys GF is then griever says alot, that there is a corelation between those two incidents in time. Square wouldnt let you name the ring yourself, if they didnt want you to see the connection, whatever that connection may be, or you could name the ring and Ultys GF would be a differnet name. but no, you are naming Ultys GF and squalls ring.
Hell, I can name the ring "QQQQQQQ4" and Ulty will name it the same name. regardless to the electronics and software of the game, their is a connection. ultimecia had to hear from squalls mouth, such a unique name. If you say it could have happened after the game, square would have shown why, or otherwise left it all out. It is suppose to be simple and therefore not explained. Does it lead to R=U, maybe... or S=U
oh and dude, "no BIG D eal" not a product of your imagination? The quote is as flaunted in this thread as Squalls lion. Not saying its a bad thing, but some people like to be creative and have quotes and emblems symbolizing their character. You do, just like squall.
Rinoa hasn't heard of Griever? No problem. She's never heard of a lion before Squall mentions it, even though they're "known for their great strength and courage".Of course. By naming Griever, the player is kind of filling in a bit of the game's history, like when you name a character. Once someone has a name, that's what everyone will call them. Imagine this scenario - someone who's never heard of Christianity encounters a person with a necklace depicting Jesus Christ.Quote:
Hell, I can name the ring "QQQQQQQ4" and Ulty will name it the same name.
A: "Who's that?"
B: "Jesus. I believe he was the saviour of humanity."
A dies and goes to heaven. Encounters Jesus.
"Who're you?"
"I'm Jesus Christ, the Son of God."
Clearly B's words didn't change anyone name or anything like that.
Incidentally... have you noticed that there's a Griever statuette on the muzzle of the Lion Heart gunblade? Any junk shop can build one of those, it's clearly not an unknown symbol.
Interesting point about the Lionheart, unless it's pictured in the magazine, I can only argue that Squall could have been responsible for the addition.
The trouble with saying that Griever is an ancient GF, is the very reason I like the R=U theory. It requires a massive coincidence. The R=U theory is a way to explain a lot of coincidences that otherwise make very little sense, you can say that these things just happened, but why when one theory explains it?
Ultimecia: I summon Jesus, the most powerful GF! Jesus, make them bleed!Quote:
Originally posted by Big D
A: "Who's that?"
B: "Jesus. I believe he was the saviour of humanity."
A dies and goes to heaven. Encounters Jesus.
"Who're you?"
"I'm Jesus Christ, the Son of God."
...*crawls off into the corner to die laughing* XDQuote:
Originally posted by DocFrance
Ultimecia: I summon Jesus, the most powerful GF! Jesus, make them bleed!
Even if Griever is an ancient GF, it still doesn't eliminate the potential for an R=U connection. F'rinstance, R/U knows that Griever is "in Squall's mind, the most powerful GF" so she hunts it down and keeps it. It still works as R=U evidence, but it's not necessarily proof as such. It could be argued either way.Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Interesting point about the Lionheart, unless it's pictured in the magazine, I can only argue that Squall could have been responsible for the addition.
The trouble with saying that Griever is an ancient GF, is the very reason I like the R=U theory. It requires a massive coincidence.
Thats the point Im trying to make. Even the phrase "legendary GF" as said by Ultimecia doesnt have to exactly mean something as from the past, a myth...etc. It could also be a play on words. It might have helped to hear the sarcasm in Ultys voice. As if refering to squalls "stupid little lion," or the "legendary GF you created."Quote:
Originally posted by Big D
Even if Griever is an ancient GF, it still doesn't eliminate the potential for an R=U connection. F'rinstance, R/U knows that Griever is "in Squall's mind, the most powerful GF" so she hunts it down and keeps it. It still works as R=U evidence, but it's not necessarily proof as such. It could be argued either way.
Even with the jesus scenario, my take on this is like Squall here inventing Jesus (the GF). Also this lion head emblem could also be what squall interprets as a coat of arms. Like William I of Egland, and his two yellow lions holding swords on a red field. The big qestion is how did squall obtain this ring...possibly its one of his first possesions.
Getting away from the ring deal, I have something to bring up as part of this R=U theory.
Does Rinoa acquire the Angel Wing after embodied by ultimecia or after being junctioned to Adel?
Because if r=u, Ulty can have no influence in rinoas powers. In other words, if ulty is rinoa, she can not acquire powers from her future self. Her future self would have had to acquire them from some other source, like Adel. So if she had angel wing only after being junctioned to Adel then the r=u would make sense but not if she acquired it from ulty.
This also raises the question, what happened to Edea and her powers. I can remember her wanting to go to Esther to speak with Odine and you get to have her in your party. You get there and edea seems to dissapear from the game for awhile. Does Odine succeeed and Edea is a normal person, are these powers passed to Rinoa somehow????
Comments?
Edit by Big D: Please use the edit/delete button to alter your posts, it's better than posting twice in a row.:)
Rinoa gets Angel Wing once she regains conciousness in Disc 3 - meaning she gets it after being posessed by Ultimecia. Still, there's nothing saying she can't gain her powers from herself, is there? We're dealing with time travel here - that sort of thing is pretty reasonable in that context. It's like going back in time and becoming your own grandfather - as twisted as that might seem.
Yep, Rinoa's Angel Wing comes to her after she regains consciousness - but remember, she was rendered unconscious when Edea's powers were embedded into her. We already know that they're the same powers that are possessed by Ultimecia, because Rinoa says "my powers will be passed on and eventually reach Ultimecia". [q=DocFrance]Still, there's nothing saying she can't gain her powers from herself, is there? We're dealing with time travel here - that sort of thing is pretty reasonable in that context. It's like going back in time and becoming your own grandfather - as twisted as that might seem.[/q] It's a little different. Edea held two sets of Sorceress powers - the set she gained as a five-year-old, when she first became a Sorceress, then the powers she got from Ultimecia before that Sorceress' death. However, Ultimecia's powers are the same ones Edea passed on via Rinoa, so really it's just a duplicate set of her own powers. A bit different to the grandfather paradox, in which information comes into existence without an ultimate origin.
The characters in the game know that Ultimecia's powers are the powers that once belonged to Rinoa and Edea (and Adel, since Rinoa gained her powers too); in that sense, a kind of "R=U" takes place.
Dont make her angry, you wouldnt like her when shes angryQuote:
Originally posted by TheAbominatrix
For the last time, this is not a thread for you people to yell at eachother
Abominatrix is the love child of She-Hulk and Mr. Fantastic? Look at that neck stretch!
We have to take "back to the future" for instance here. If you go into the past and tamper with your own bloodline, you cant, because your tampering with your own existence. You cant go into your past and shoot yourself because... well obviously then you would never grow up, go back in time and shoot yourself. So its like Michael J Fox dissapearing after tampering with his parents relationship.
So powers should relate in the same way, ulty can use rinoa as a body to move but cannot give her powers. To begin the time loop, in order for ulty to exist as ulty she needs powers, so thats the question, where would ulty receive powers from. and then we can tie that to rinoa acquiring powers (outside any ulty influence)
Like saying ulty claimed powers from Adel and Edea head in that direction
(This is why I was reading the Ellone thread that was recently closed, to hear embodiment arguments - or debates, same thing... ) :eep:
just cuz back to the future felt that was how it should be doesnt mean square did
This whole debate is based too much on a bunch of loose "what-ifs" and hypothetical situations. Bleh.
It's a true dilemma. If the game answers all the questions and doesn't leave us guessing, then we'll run it down for spoon-feeding us information and leaving nothing to our own creativity. There're fewer ideas to discuss in threads like these... but when there are unanswered questions, grown men start getting upset and defensive over inconsequential things:pQuote:
Originally posted by DocFrance
This whole debate is based too much on a bunch of loose "what-ifs" and hypothetical situations. Bleh.
Its the philosophy of it. when we buy a puzzle we want to put it together, not let it sit in the box and wonder what it could look like, or put half of it together and decide its finished and put it away.
Same goes for a game with the same "what ifs." If their are loose strings, we want to tie them some how to have a sense of completion over a game.
That is why many people flock to these forums looking for discussion and debate. Like Laguna and Raine are declared the parents of Squall in the very first post, Its an achievement for this forum and a step towards completion of the story.
I thought FFVIII was completed until I visited this site. I never would have thought of any of these "what ifs" until I came into here. Im curious to see if they ever develop into facts like the L+R=S. Isnt that one of the reasons this forum was created?:cool:
L+R=S
I would like to see the documented footage :D
That's more or less an established fact, it's basically told to you in the game. Unlike R=U, which is less clear and more open to speculation and debate.
im sorta new at this.... but ive read all the replys and it just came to me that maybe this is what square intended to do. Maybe they put in evidence for and against r=u just so that us players could make up the ending we wanted to, thus satisfying more ppl than if they just somehow told you if r=u was true or not true...
this was my thought on it and i am open-minded on this subject... it just got me thinking how much square leaves to the gamer to decide in the later FFs and so both sides could possibly be "right" at the same time
replies are very welcome to this line of thought:whoa:
I'd be more satisfied if they did tell me! I can't be bovad to think about all the if buts and or whys!