What do you think?
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What do you think?
Doesn't matter either way, I think people that are that concerned are trying to read into the game too deeply and spending more time than is worth it on something rather trivially pointless because it's not gonna affect anything once you've settled on an answer, like maybe a cure for cancer might do :p
My thoughts exactly. Just like the PhD student who tried to prove that Jesus was gay, or those who are still working out whether Sephiroth was really villainous.
This poll won't provide an 'answer' (and it'll get closed if people start arguing), but it'll be interesting to see where people's opinions fall.
Maybe... maybe not. I'm not too concerned with it now. If it is true, then it makes the game much more interesting and mind boggling... >D
If it's not, then... Ultimecia is a really random figure.
I doubt that R=U simply because the evidence in favor is too subtle. Squaresoft tends to hide clues more in the open, such as SPOILER the case of Squall's parentage and Shadow's true identity.
And.... Griever?
I'll vote maybe, a very likely maybe IMO, but definately not a yes or no.
Of course it doesn't matter, but if we couldn't discuss this stuff the Final Fantasy Forum links might as well be linked to the walkthroughs on the main site.
Just as a note because Big D said this would get closed for argueing, if you wanna make a point there is a current thread where debate is actually going on (and still in a mature manner). Thanks to the mods for giving FFVIII fans some credit again.
I believe Square intended it so people think that R=U. Why they did it is unknown, maybe it's the truth or maybe they made sure that there is no answer.
say aye, too many things pointing to it. Other things are in game possibilities, but when you consider the game as a 'literary'product (between quotes, it ain't War and Peace I'm analyzing, though Besimundo has another take on that eh ;)) , the message seems quite clear to me.
damn right. if all of the gamers didn't read into things like this we'd have a cure for cancer.Quote:
Originally posted by crono_logical
Doesn't matter either way, I think people that are that concerned are trying to read into the game too deeply and spending more time than is worth it on something rather trivially pointless because it's not gonna affect anything once you've settled on an answer, like maybe a cure for cancer might do :p
The evidence is... not enough. It's an interesting theory, yes, but for the most part you're really stretching things to make your point.
In the end...
DOES IT FREAKIN' MATTER?!
Seriously, don't these people have something more productive to do with their lives, like, perhaps, having one? It sounds interesting, yes, but it really doesn't matter IMO.
I don't know. There's so much evidence that R=U, but there's one thing i don't get. If they kill Ultimecia then how does Rinoa live? I don't know if you kill Ulti or not, I've never actually beat the game.
I don't think so. Just because Rinoa received her powers from Edea, who got them from Ultimecia, doesn't make her Ultimecia. I just don't see it as logical. O_o
Evidently xSiLeNtStArx has read a different version of the theory than I have. I'm interested to see what site managed to find a logical train of thought with that version.
*~*ToAsT*~* You don't die now if your killed when your older, but there's another thread with that all in, and we aren't meant to be discussing it here so I'm not gonna explain further than that here.
Kuja Highwind I'd think someone with the time to come in and criticise and insult others using varying font sizes should think through their accusations.
i like the idea, simply because it pulls the plot full circle and adds a bit to what i thought was a rather flat story.
But i don't understand why people search the game for all sorts of clues and evidence and whatnot to prove it one way or another. i mean, i heard the idea once, and thought, 'hey, cool idea.' And that was the end of it. Any more than that seems... a bit much. Especially those who are really hardcore about it one way or another. i mean, what the fork, man?
Maybe... Maybe Not. We'll never know anyway (or maybe we will...)
NO. Just say No kids.
You shall not hide the truth! The people have the right to know!
By the way, of course it's not really an important issue. But some peopel LIKE to discuss such issues about books and movies...why should a game be exempt. it's fun, and fun is what the game is all about. What is the use of discussing R=U you ask? The same as PLAYING Final Fantasy VIII. None, it's for personal enjoyment, (both the discussion and the inevitable realisation that WE are right of course ;))
Phoenix, yeah, that post was a bit rash, I agree; I was already mad at random electronic objects that day (particularly attempting to catch monsters on FFX...:mad2: ), and I can easily avert anger from one thing to another. I apologize. So let me rephrase what I said...
It doesn't matter. It's only a game.
Being annoyed at an FFX minigame is an excuse for murder in my book. Thanks for the apology though.
Well, after reading this theory at Apocalyspe, I'm beginning to see the possibilites. I'm not entirely convinced, but this article does have very good points, you might want to check it out.
That article outlines it, but misses out huge parts of the theory and evidence, it also uses the Doomtrain example which I personally don't like.
As I said pretty much the entire theory is being discussed in an active thread (thanks to the mods for that).
It doesn't matter. It would make for an interesting sequel if it was true, but it's not fascinating enough for me to want to delve that deeply into the game. It's fun to play for the story that's there.
wouldn't it be possible if rinoa/ulti just created griever.after all she did bring 2 staues to life during the parade..
It is, and I'll say again. THERE IS AN ACTIVE TOPIC ON THIS, here isn't the place to discuss it. The mods are being kind allowing twwo but it's been said specifically this will get closed if people argue.
If there was any actual evidence for the R=U theory I'd consider believing it. Since it's based on people who just like to poke at things and stretch them, I have to say that it's garbage.
Would it make my last post pointless if I pointed out that none of what Demandred said was accurate?
I think square intended for this to happen... but anyways i think maybe yea....
Why? Because I have a different opinion on the R=U theory? I believe that there is nothing, absolutely nothing in the game that actually backs it up. Everything I have ever read on the matter is taking material from the game and stretching it so that it fits the idea that R=U. I find the theory, and the "evidence" supporting it to be nothing but a joke. Support it if you want, you're more than welcome to, but the fact that Square has never said R=U, and that the game itself doesn't directly state it either, doesn't make it true. I don't see any evidence to back it up, so my points are just as accurate as the next person since the game doesn't actually state that this is true.Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Would it make my last post pointless if I pointed out that none of what Demandred said was accurate?
Well I'm not defending it in here because there's a perfectly good thread for that, but I might as well back up my point.
There is evidence, you just don't accept it. So given there IS evidence and you have dismissed it you can't have considered believing in it. So none of that sentence is true.Quote:
If there was any actual evidence for the R=U theory I'd consider believing it.
It's based on explaining many things in the game that don't make sense without some kind of theory. Even if the first half of your sentence was true, noone is forcing you to call it garbage so that is also innacurate.Quote:
Since it's based on people who just like to poke at things and stretch them, I have to say that it's garbage.
That was all you said so I stand by my statement.
Yes this is more interesting than the "cloned" baddies we see in other FF titles. Is there really any difference between Sephiroth, Kuja or Seymour?
I mean as soon as I saw Seymour putting on his
"I am a typical Japanese articulating villain, with long hair and androgenous looks"
My reaction was... Here we go again, the fact the player was forced to fight these drop kicks over and over was insulting..
At least FF8 had an interesting villain, who attracts decent intelligent discussion.
Except it's NOT evidence because it's based on assumptions of little things throughout the game. It's a theory. The game doesn't develop the theory. It DOES provide little things that can be used to create the R=U theory, but it does not develop them. The "evidence" IMO is something that has been stretched so far it's ridiculous. Since the game neither concludes that the R=U theory is true, nor does it say it's wrong you are not right and neither am I. The only people who can actually confirm or disprove the R=U theory as those at Square, and I believe there was a website, or something out there where they had declared it innaccurate, however, without the link that obviously holds no merit so I won't even use it to defend myself.Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Well I'm not defending it in here because there's a perfectly good thread for that, but I might as well back up my point.
There is evidence, you just don't accept it. So given there IS evidence and you have dismissed it you can't have considered believing in it. So none of that sentence is true.
It's based on explaining many things in the game that don't make sense without some kind of theory. Even if the first half of your sentence was true, noone is forcing you to call it garbage so that is also innacurate.
That was all you said so I stand by my statement.
Secondly, like I stated above, since the game doesn't state, or even develop the R=U theory in any way I don't have to accept it because I don't see the logic in it. At least with Squall and Laguna there are hints of their relationship throughout the game. I may as well say that Irvine and Selphie are Ultimecia if I'm going to believe the R = U theory because there's about as much backing that up.
Enough. I've said I'm not argueing the theory in here as it's been specifically said not to. If you want to try and undermine it do it in the right thread I don't wanna be responsible for it being banned again.
Besimudo I agree with the exception of Sephiroth/Jenova which was just as, if not more interesting than R=U. Without R=U however, Ulti sucks.
Yes, yes the sepi / jenova was a bit forced...much like Jecht / Sin ... the game bluntly gave their personal details away, in text, and transformations.
R=U is more subliminal, like Macbeth and the 3rd murderer, these themes go over many peoples heads...and this is one indication of the level of the messages.
Then explain all the people who rave about how much Sephiroth rocks.
Aren't you always complaining about FFVII vs FFVIII threads, PhoenixAsh?
I'll close this unless someone can contribute something - like, for instance, if Demandred can find the link to the site he mentioned.
I don't complain about VII versus VIII threads. I complain about Besimudo referencing them because he always starts them. Course thats all in fun as I enjoy Besimudo's posts. I wouldn't risk actual complaints in an R=U thread :).
Why close the thread though? We aren't debating R=U, we're discussing the theory in context with the fans and other games. Seems fairly on topic to me.
The other thread here lists most of the points to R=U, so if anyone needs info on the theory they can just go there. It probably covers more than most sites.
Yes I agree with phoenix...we are just pointing out why we like the various games based on the themes that appeal to us.
If I want to call FF7s boss a punce in the same league as FF9 & 10 (gee odd that, as soon as the FF8 development team left Square for Namco FF9 went back to the old sephiroth style baddie, named Kuja).....
Or if phoenix wished to point out how much of an anti climax Ulti was, that is fine. Or the fact that the sorcs were a bit lame...thats good too. I personally would have rathered see a war between Esthar and Galbadia where Rinoa and Squall died...SO the fathers essentially kill their children. Ulti seemed
like a last ditch effort!
As for U=R how do you account for Ultis German accent?
...E.g. Krush the SeeDs
Did rinoa buy German in three months from a disintegrating book store after time compression?....
Starting words with a 'K' instead of a 'C' isn't meant to sound German, it's simply how evil people speak. Always.
It's getting pretty unfair that people try to put down the theory in here talking to me, when I've said several times I'm not gonna argue it in this thread. There's another perfectly good thread somewhere on here.
Nice thought about that was though Besimudo, but don't you think Rinoa being the bad guy is just as cool as the fathers doing it? Less tragic, but more irony I'd say.
That is a question of debate!
Rinoa technically represents the natural order, while Squall is humanism (along with Laguna).
It was preordained that the great Hynes descendents were to rule man kind...and as we witness in today’s world individuals have replaced the holy regents (I admit that some rulers are the destructive form of the divine (luciferin) e.g. Genghis Khan). Laguna represents the modern humanism replacing the traditionally ordained ruler. The fact that the people feel that Laguna is better than Adel, reasserts his image as a manifestation of the anti-Christ. So Hyne sends an Armageddon, which was ordained to destroy the secular Esthar just as it did Centra.
So pheonix in a way Rinoa is actually the good guy being defeated by squall.
When I first played it I thought that Ultimecia was a descendent of Rinoa.. but not Rinoa herself. It made little sense why Rinoa would possess herself in the past only to have herself die in space... If Ulti had forgotten about Squall then how would she know that Squall would come to her rescue? Or here is the catch…she wanted to die so that Adel would be free to complete time compression, rather than Rinoa/ ulti who would loose in the future to Squall?
This debate is starting to sound like the old…Is Deckard from Blade runner a replicant? There is as much evidence for as there is against, I guess we will never know.
Phoenix, I have talked with a lot of FF players and they believe that the Ulti ending was a bit lame. Many have dreamt of a full scale war where one of the leads died. My choice is Rinoa and Squall for that Romeo and Juliet element….
Ahhh Big D.. As you know pop American kulture insists that if you vant a German sounding Kolonel (Herzog) Klinck type baddie give em a K instead of a C... This also inclinated Ulti with Dr. Odine (those mechanical Germans) This is based on the sound and the fact The Capital in German is Das Kapital... As you may know being a student of German.
I'm not discussing the theory itself here, but I will say that I consider Rinoa being left in space evidence for the theory more than against it. But that's another issue.
While I see your point, I don't think being a god/ servant of god qualifies you as good by a long way. I still think on a personal level Rinoa dieing by Squall's blade adds a lot to the story.
A full scale war would have been fun to watch though kinda pointless. At the time of hostilty in each country they were effectively being run by the same person.
I wouldn't say there is as much evidence as there is for as against. There is no evidence against it, apart from it isn't directly said. I do however consider the theory about 50/50 in likelyhood.
Phoenix.. often it is the things that are not said that make the most impact. Words are trivial and often meaningless. Communication is important in human civilisation, but for the most spectacular moments and as a matter of fact our most traumatic moments...words tend to only do harm.
I think that when the author has to explicitly state themes he does himself no credit by assuming that the reader is a dim-wit.
If you rely on blunt explanations…. i.e. So Jecht is Sin and My father (FF10 style)
This would be like…
Squall: gee I am glad the mission is over.
Rinoa: Yeah It turned out that I was Ultimecia, but I didn’t know it
Zell: Its called Schizophrenia.. the game didn’t even really happen.
Squall: (shut up Zell)
Selphie: Yeah we have no imagination…this whole story was just a few university student pulling cones.
Zell: Yeah and then Squall started raving about some flying place called the Garden…whoa. What a trip.
Squall: yeah then I can remember making out with Rinoa, it felt like I was on a space ship.
Rinoa: I don’t recall that, All I remember is beating you off with a stick, then you pulled another cone.
Selphie: Yeah then Rinoas Schizophrenia kicked in due to the Amsterdam hash and she started calling herself Unltimecia .
Zell: So that explains it Rinoa was Ultimecia!!
Irvine: I haven’t said my bit yet, but yes she definitely was Ulti…
Quistis: mmm Squall….
FIN.
Do we need an overt and rational explanation for everything?? As you can see I do not hold "fan Fiction" in very high esteem either.
I vaguely see you're point, but I'm not really sure what it was argueing. I'm a supporter of R=U.
Unless that was about there not having to be a reason for two countries to go to war, which although is kinda appropriate right now it is somewhat less believable in fiction than reality.
Well, I guess they could have dropped a little more hints. perhaps have Squall, after the kiss have a flashback of his blade cutting Ultimecia and have that smile of his waver for a moment as he looks at the wings on Rinoa's back as he hugs her. But then, maybe subtle is nice for a change. To each their own.
And not hold fanfiction in high esteem. I mean, if you only check Fanfiction.net ... okay... but I've seen some very GOOD fanfic outthere. And written... passable fanfic myself.
Laguna indicates that he has much to tell Squall about when the mission is all over... Then he said something along the lines of "if you dont wish to hear about it, thats ok".
It seems that Squall, rejected the offer to hear what he (as the player) had already deduced. This is one interesting feature of Squall, it is generally the player who reacts to his internal "chaos", this is very contrasting compared with Clouds literal breakdown, when squall "broke down" he told the player and the sleeping angel (Rinoa). Cloud put on a public demonstration for the team... and afterwards his character was deminished (appeared weak).
Besides, when I saw Laguna standing in the presidential palace, I reacted similarly with Squall “what is this idiot doing here”.
This is the universal form of the “leader” …He is naturally friends with everyone, yet the most important people suffer. This is followed in The Three Kingdoms with the Character of Liu Bei (I am sure some people have played Dynasty warriors or better still read the novels). Liu Bei (Xaunde) pledges fraternity to Guan Yu and Zhange fei… This is fine when they operate as warriors but when Liu bei becomes involved in expanding the kingdom of Shu he is forced to betray their oath and then Guan Yu is captured and killed. Shortly after Zhang fei learns of the death of his brother and goes on a rampage (resulting in death).
NOTE: that Laguna was also part of a trio, it seems that this theme is universal….yet again we see more parallels with higher literature.
P.S.Al' I made the assumption of Holland based on your native language... I though a patriotic Belgian would speak Flemmish.
Huh? Besi, did you mistake threads perhaps? It was the other thread where we were discussing Laguna's abbandoning of Squall I thought...
Anyway, Cloud's ' breaking down' is one of my favourite parts of VII. Cloud fears his past. And he cannot overcome that fear, even after Sephiroth forced him to confront part of it. He always flees, first in the personality of Zack, then in fatalism as he hands the Black Materia to Sephiroth, then in the unsconsciousness of Mako-poisoning. Despite all evidence to the contrary, the Cloud up to a good half of Disc 2 is a coward. He even almost gives up on following Sephiroth because he fears what he might learn of himself.
It is AFTER he lets the mask slip, after he faces his past, and discovers that it wasn't quite as shameful as he thought it was, that Cloud starts to become ' the genuine article' Everything uptill then is an act. In this, he also lied to his friends as well as himself. And it is only fair that they know that the person they saw up till then wasn't Cloud, it was Zack. Despite the subdued tone, the scene where Cloud reveals all to them isn't Cloud's moment of defeat, it's his moment of triumph.
Oh, and regarding my origins. Flemmish is a form of Dutch. (a valid form of Dutch BTW, many words exclusively used in Flanders ARE in the official wordlist) Sort of like American English and English English, though a bit closer.It's just that few enough people have heard of Dutch, let alone Flemmish, so I usually keep it simple. However, despite my jesting Holland-Belgium scene I'm no patriot by any stretch of the imagination. My loyalty is with causes and individual people, not with nations or states.
...SO it was.