do they actually tell u who squall's dad is? the ending doesn't answer this..... :o
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do they actually tell u who squall's dad is? the ending doesn't answer this..... :o
Ah well...what's the phrase again? Once more, into the breach dear friends.
It is HEAVILY suggested in the game that Laguna is Squall's father, and Raine is his mother. We know from flashbacksRaine born a son while Laguna was out to save Ellone, that Ellone and that son were sent to an orphanage together. Squall calls Ellone 'sis' all the while.
On teh Ragnarok, Laguna says he and Squall have something to talk about, Kiros says it's a good thing Squall doesn't take after his father.
There's without a doubt more 'hints' at Squall being Laguna's son, I advise using the search function. Plenty of threads about this there.
I can't believe how many people ask this.
I'd almost guess this question had a hidden purpose given there's no mention of his mother (which is odd given the only time Squall's parentage is made to seem important, his mother is also mentioned).
Yes, Laguna is Squall's father.
Laguna is NOT also Rinoa's father, so those two aren't related like some people fear.
I never believed that but was it disproven? Are there actual guarentees of a over a year and three quarters between Laguna meeting Julia, and Laguna going to Esthar? Or was there some other evidence?
Yes, the time difference is enough.
Squall and Rinoa are the same age, but a considerable period passed between Laguna's encounter with Julia and his meeting with Raine.
Laguna meeting Julia can happen up to about twenty one months before Squall being born and still leave them the same age. So did is it shown Laguna takes nearly two years between the hotel and Esthar.
Laguna spent a while talking to Julia, not having a one-night stand. It's also very doubtful that Raine got busy with him while he was still unconscious and recovering from his life-threatening injuries, too.
General Carraway is not stupid, he'd have known if Rinoa wasn't his biological daughter. It's suggested (although not definite) in the script that Laguna left for Esthar without knowing that Raine was pregnant. Now, we know he spent a long time in Winhill; if he impregnated Raine as soon as he arrived, she'd probably have given birth by the time he left for Esthar. She'd certainly have been noticeably pregnant by the time Kiros arrived.
Raine and Laguna hadnt even admitted their feelings to eachother by the time Kiros was visiting. They were no intimate moments between them whatsoever, but then again Laguna is a wuss when it comes to that stuff. And there's already been a thread on the possibility of Rinoa and Squall being brother and sister, and it's already explained all these facts. And pretty much come to a conclusion that it's really not feasible.
Indeed. In fact, I think it's time for a sticky thread on this...
We should get someone to write up a general 'read this before posting' FAQ like in the FFVII forums. It wont catch all of it, because not everyone reads it, but it'd help.
Guess what I've just finished doing?:)
Hoepfully these pressing issues can be laid to rest, at least for a while...
But considering the number of "How do I revive (SPOILER)Aeris???" threads that get made in the FFVII forum, I'll not get my hopes up...
Excellent job, buddy. Simple and sweet.
It wont help 100%, but if we can avoid a couple, it'll be useful. Looks like your gunning for a promotion. Hehe.
Yep, Laguna's his father all right. The hints in the game are about as subtle as a brick. They all but tell you outright that he's Squall's biological father.
Dammit D, I suggested making a thread for that a few weeks back and noone cared, now you get your's stickied *shakes fist*.
It's never said Laguna and Julia did nothing, at least to my memory. As I've said before, Laguna had twenty-one months to get to Esthar for them to be siblings, I don't think that is disproven either.
I don't believe the theory, but I don't think it was disproven.
Well, it was as near-as to being disproven. Raine wasn't pregnant when Laguna and Kiros were in Winhill. Caraway acknowledges Rinoa as his daughter. As a general, he's probably capable of counting, so he'd notice if Rinoa was born too early. Besides, I think it's said somewhere that Rinoa was born quite some time after Caraway and Julia got married.
I heard throught the grapevine that if you find the Ragnorok through one of the doors of time, looking for the Card Master, if you speak to the people inside the ship, you find out Squall's and Laguna story... I haven't been able to verify this *don't yell at me if it's not true!* yet but I have read it many times over...
It's super annoying to not find out in the English version but I am sure that it might be a different story in the Japanese version... Has anyone played that one?
You mean in disc 4, during the time compression?Quote:
I heard throught the grapevine that if you find the Ragnorok through one of the doors of time, looking for the Card Master, if you speak to the people inside the ship, you find out Squall's and Laguna story...
If so: Not true *Not yelling*
i've found it, and nobody in the ship tells you anything related to the subject.
As far as the story, i think the it's pretty obvious and have been mentioned many times before.
Laguna goes leaves raine pregnant, she has squall but dies, squall is sent to the beach house with edea, the rest it's history. what else is there to know?
Allow to reiterate, that it is elements like these that make FF8 a classic....and not just an rpg.
Big D makes a valid point ... also Rinoa is younger than squall.
Or something akin to a daytime soap opera. Either or.Quote:
Originally posted by Besimudo
Allow to reiterate, that it is elements like these that make FF8 a classic....and not just an rpg.
No soapies state themes overtly i.e. Tidus and Jecht from FF10 is more a la soap style.
The Squall/Laguna relationship has more mythical symbology than you may suspect.
Eventually, but not always. It certainly has enough melodrama to be a soap opera. *nods*
I love Besimudo's rose tinted googles for this game, they're so fun.
Squall and Laguna wasn't subtle, it was just written badly. If you played the game fully you were pretty much told that they were, but it didn't affect anything. With the exception of adding further to the list of coincidences and fated elements in the game it didn't explain or add anything in any way.
When is it said Rinoa is younger than Squall?
Their ages are in the instruction manual - they're both 17 - and their birthdates are probably published somewhere.
Unless they were born on the same day, one will naturally be younger than the other.
This is probably the greatest sentence ever posted on EoFF.Quote:
Unless they were born on the same day, one will naturally be younger than the other.
Well, someone had to explain the obvious for you. I wasn't sure if you'd be able to see it, for you might've been wearing "Besimudo's rose tinted googles."
I'm quite aware of the obvious, it's been my point for quite some time. I asked where it said that RINOA had to be the youngest.
Lets pretend google was a clever computer pun on my behalf *winks*.
Actually Squall is younger. On the back of the action figure package it say Rinoa's birthday is March 3rd and Squall's August 23. So Squall is 5 months and 20 days younger.
Wellity, wellity, wellity. Doesn't that just put across what I've been saying in nice little vacuum packed package.
So that gives around eighteen months between Julia, and Esthar. Not sure if that works or not.
Hmm. Let's propse a fact pattern here...
Shy, sensitive Laguna talks to Julia Heartilly for the first time, but one thing leads to another and Rinoa is the eventual result. Laguna later goes to Centra and is injured. Barely alive, he's found by Raine who takes him home and has her way with him. About six months later, he's back on his feet but Raine has somehow kept her pregnancy hidden. She remains pregnant for another six months or so, and doesn't give birth 'till Laguna's safely away in Esthar.
Somehow, Rinoa and Squall still manage to be born withing six months of each other.
..Doesn't quite add up, does it?
Let's face it, they aren't related.
If you really want a story about a young man pursuing his own sister, try the original (SPOILER)Star Wars trilogy.:p
*agrees*
Although I must admit that when I first found out that Rinoa was Julia's daughter on disc two (when Kiros tells Laguna that Julia married Gen. Caraway), my first thought was "maybe Rinoa isn't really Caraway's daughter at all. . ." but I began to dismiss that thought as it became more apparant that Squall and Laguna were related. And time-wise, it makes sense that Caraway is Rinoa's father, even with Squall being younger. By the time Kiros tells Laguna, Julia and Caraway have already been married for some time. If their wedding night bonk was the one that produced Rinoa, she would already be a month or two along at least before news gets to Laguna, at which point he and Raine haven't even admitted their budding feelings for each other, not to mention getting around to some serious bumping.
Had Laguna been Rinoa's dad as of the night at the Galbadian hotel, Rinoa would be a lot older than Squall than just 5 months. Just the time spent between Raine finding him and Kiros' arrival is about 4-5 months already.
OOC: Speaking of The Trilogy, watching that first movie now is just kind of, well. . . sick. :p
Or you can read Baldur's Gate 1 Imoen/main character romances, before you find out she's a half-sister...
If Kiros' arrival is 4-5 months after Julia that would fit perfectly.
D you assumed five months between Julia and Laguna arriving in Winhill, why? You also assumed they had sex immediately, why? The final six months I'm not entirely certain where you got that from either.
I don't believe it, I just don't see how it's disproven. The timelines seem to match as far as I can see, espescially given how short travel times are in the game, even if you scaled them up hundreds of times it still gives plenty of room.
Raine says that Laguna spent six months just recovering from his injuries.
Doesn't Kiros say he's been looking for Laguna for an entire year, too?
Kiros and Ward had quit the army, and Ward had changed to a completely different job. Those kinds of changes take a while.
Clearly, the better part of a year or more has passed between Laguna's friendly chat with Julia and his meeting with Raine.
Besides, Julia didn't even meet Caraway until she was absolutely certain that Laguna wasn't coming back. She was distraught, he consoled her, they eventually fell in love. Those things also take time. Caraway might;ve noticed if she was pregnant.
It's not like Julia just got bored and started playing around simply because Laguna had been gone for a few weeks.
Recovering from injuries fully after six months would probably disprove it completely. As would Kiros searching for a year.
Job changes don't take long at all in FFVIII.
I have no idea where you got that from.Quote:
Clearly, the better part of a year or more has passed between Laguna's friendly chat with Julia and his meeting with Raine.
Julia met a guy in a bar and they either spent the night together, or had one fairly awkward conversation. There's no reason for her to wait that long, even if she didn't already know Laguna wasn't coming back.
*Sigh*
Here's the script, as reproduced at rpgamer...
I guess that's cleared up then...Quote:
Kiros
"You seem well."
Laguna
"Yeah...You, too."
"Hey, how long has it been? You know, our grand escape from Centra?"
Kiros
"That was...One would usually call that being chased out..."
Raine
"I thought so..."
Kiros
"Well, I would say about a year or so."
Laguna
"I was bed-ridden for over 6 months. It seemed like every bone in my body
was in pieces."
Raine
"I nursed him back to health."
Kiros
"Thank you, for taking good care of Laguna."
"I was able to recover in about a month or so. Ever since then...I've been
searching for you."
Laguna
"Why?"
Kiros
"After leaving the army...Well, just killing time I guess."
"Life's pretty boring without you as entertainment, my man."
Laguna
"That's a harsh thing to say. I've been living a productive life here."
...Which supports the notion that Julia is, as surmised, NOT a cheap floozy, and she actually did wait for Laguna.Quote:
Laguna
"How's Julia doing?"
Kiros
"I don't know..."
Raine
"You mean Julia, the singer?"
Kiros
"That's right."
"Laguna really admired her and always frequented the night club."
Laguna
"Shut up! So what if I did!"
Raine
"Julia used to sing at a night club?"
Kiros
"No, she didn't sing. She just played the piano."
Raine
"Then the first song she released was 'Eyes on Me'?"
Laguna
"H-How does the song go?"
Raine
"You don't know?"
Laguna
"Well, you never let me hear it!"
Raine
"I didn't think you listened to music."
"The song's about being in love...I really like it."
Kiros
"Heard she recently got married."
Raine
"Oh yeah!"
"To some army general, right? General Caraway or something?"
Kiros
"I'm not too sure."
Raine
"I read in a magazine that her true love went off to war and never came
back."
"General Caraway comforted her while she was feeling down. That's how they
got to know each other."
Kiros
"...So she didn't wait for the soldier to come back...?"
Laguna
"So what! Who cares!?"
"As long as she's happy, right? That's all that matters!"
Now, Raine obviously wasn't pregnant during the above-quoted scenes, even though a full year or more had passed since she and Laguna met. This, more than anything else, is proof that there is no way that Laguna could be the father of both children.
You're arguing with a brick wall, D.
Yea, then verily I shall use the mighty hammer of quotations and the sledge of truth to smite forth upon such a wall, until it is rendered even unto the very dust and rubble from whence it camest.
...Actually, I think my latest evidence should be enough to convince even the most 'hardened' believer that Squall and Rinoa can't be related at all.
Not that it really matters, anyway. There are bigger things in life to worry about...
Yup that's pretty concrete. As I said before that would prove it I'd appreciate it if you kept our personal differences at least to arguements you're in TheAbominatrix.
I know it's nice to think Julia and Laguna were in love and everything, but that's it. They met in a bar, talked for a night maybe, then didn't see each other again. Laguna's job was more important than seeing her, and she was married to someone else shortly after. Laguna following later.
Hearing about something a magazine stated about someone famous' love life is hardly evidence.
In a way the whole romantic mess adds an extra romantic aspect to the thing. Julia and Laguna never got together, but their son and daughter DID. Of course, neither Laguna nor Caraway could enjoy their love long though,
I would say that Laguna's crush was pretty serious though, and Julia clearly WAS pretty smitten with Laguna. She wrote the 'eye on me' song for him after all.
A random thought I had would be what Caraway's reaction would be at seeing Laguna
Caraway: Hey.. aren't you the guy my wife mourned for for a very long time. We all thought you had died.
Laguna: Oh, heh, no, close call.l
C: So... why didn't you come back. Julia was pretty sad you know.
L: Hey, I was seriously injured, Raine had to nurse me for 6 months.
C: riiiight... and you couldn't have asked Raine to get a message to Julia?
L: Euh... bad post service in Winhill
C: Hm... ah well, so why didn't you come back after those six months...
L: euh... I euh... protected the village to repay them for saving me...
C: .... and...?
L: And I kinda fell in love and married someone else.
C: .... Well at least you stayed with her...
L: Euh....
C: What euh?
L: I kinda went to Esthar to STOP STRANGLING ME! I HAD TO SAVE OUR DAUGHTER... well stephdaughter. Ellone
C: Oh... okay.... so afterwards you returned
L: Well... she died in childbirth of our son.
C: Oh, sorry to hear that. How is your son.
L: Just fine, there he is. Hey SQUALL!
S: me?
C: Huh? That's Squall? You are Squall's father? I heard he grew up in an orphanage! Together with an... Ellone?
S:... what's going on exactly
C: Apparently he's your father.
L: Hey look, this isn't what it looked like. After I saved Ellone I had promised to help overthrow Adel, and afterwards well... euh... Esthar is really far away and all...and I... euh... Ellone, honey... couuld you help Unle Laguna here?
C: You hold, I punch
S: Sounds good
Rinoa: Squally-pooh? Father? Why are you two kicking the crap out of the President of Esthar?
ROFLMAO.
That's exactly my point. It's nice to think of Laguna and Julia being these torn apart lovers because of the Squall-Rinoa thing, but in reality where's the evidence?
That they loved each other? Well, Laguna was quite clearly smitten with Julia, and Julia DID make a song because she was pining away for him, so I assume there must have been SOMETHING brewing between them.
Laguna had a crush on a cute piano player he'd never spoken to. Julia was a song writer who wrote a song about a soldier who was called away for duty. It's not exactly anything special.
Well they have spoken... once, and Julia DID mention that she had her eye on Laguna ("Did you ever know, that I had my eye on you?"). And Kiros DOES mention that Julia waited for Laguna quite a while, and Caraway got close to her as he was comforting her. The song is about Lagune I think. Laguna himself at least feels pretty referred to.
Now, okay, magazines aren't great harbringers of truth. But we can at least agree I hope there was a budding relationship. Heck, if not for the mission they'd be together pretty soon I think.Quote:
Raine
"I read in a magazine that her true love went off to war and never came
back."
"General Caraway comforted her while she was feeling down. That's how they got to know each other."
Kiros
"...So she didn't wait for the soldier to come back...?"
Laguna
"So what! Who cares!?"
"As long as she's happy, right? That's all that matters!"
Oh yeah, Julia also mentioned that it was because of Laguna she suddenly felt like she could actually sing, so I think we can safely say the first song is a lovesong for Laguna.
Oh I know. Maybe there would have been love there. But in real life would you think that a soldier meeting a girl in a bar then leaving was this huge deal. Thinking people are attractive isn't a big deal, and it certainly doesn't mean love.
I'm just saying I don't think it was anything special the way the game showed it. I'm sure they were in love as it's a game and fate and etc. But that's the only reason.
But it also sounds to me like Laguna was somewhat hurt that Julia went and married someone else. His reaction:
"So what! Who cares!? "As long as she's happy, right? That's all that matters!"
Sounds almost sarcastic to me. I think Laguna realized that it was silly to think she'd wait that long for him when he made no effort to contact her, but part of him hoped she had, and was dissapointed that she didn't. I mean, even Kiros and Ward, his best friends, had no clue what had happened to him or even if he was alive. Plus, Laguna really didn't start to consider his feelings for Raine until AFTER he hears of Julia's marriage, even though Raines' feelings for him are pretty apparent from the start.
It is true, however, that thry could have done more with it, which is why if Square ever considers doing a sequel to FF8, I think a prequel would be the most fitting, dealing with the first Sorceress War and Raine, Laguna, and Julia. It would clear a lot of things up. :)
A nice mix I guess, dissapointement, and a fair dose of guilt towards Julia, and shame towards Raine (he didn't mention to Raine he had... not quite a relationship with Julia. It wasn't like he had a reason to hide it from her right? She was just a good friend. But then... he didn't have a reason to tell her. Yeah, that's the ticker)
I wouldn't say sarcasm though. Can you imagine LAGUNA being sarcastic? More of a 'I don't like the way this conversation is going' After all, he did try to shush Kiros over the whole 'crush' he had.
You may notice that I absolutely don't call Julia a slut. In fact, it's Laguna's behaviour that seems the most shameful to me. After all, he DID promise to meet with Julia again. Least he could do was a 'hey, I'm currently healing of having almost every bone in my body broken' message, even IF he's fallen in love with Raine by then. For all he knew she was STILL pining away from him while he was making up his mind whether he loved Raine or not.
Bad Laguna, no cookie....
*nods*
Yeah, sarcasm was probably not the right word, but a "not liking the way the conversation was going" is what I had in mind when I said it. :) I also agree that I think Laguna is more to blame for the falling through of that relationship since he never contacted Julia, although I still think he held dissapointment over the fact she didn't wait forever. Not that I expected her to.
So to summarise. Laguna and Julia weren't ripped apart by cicrumstances. They were ripped apart by Laguna's stupidity and lack of interest.
There children would have been ripped apart by Squall's stupidity and lack of interest had Rinoa not been desperate and posessed by evil.
It's so romantic.
Well... that, and the fact that he nearly died and had to deal with the small matter of recovering. What was he supposed to do...Quote:
Laguna and Julia weren't ripped apart by cicrumstances. They were ripped apart by Laguna's stupidity and lack of interest.
"Hi Raine. Thanks for nursing me back to health, but I'm going to go now without repaying your kindness, because there's this singer in the capital city I've got a crush on."
Laguna's a shy individual, not very confident with women, so he probably didn't realise just how much he meant to Julia and never expected her to wait for him.
He kind of got swept away by events in Winhill and Esthar, too. He couldn't just walk away and risk/sacrifice the lives of others just to pursue romantic possibilities.
He left her for work. Didn't attempt to contact her, or even tell Raine how important she was, or try and make it back to Galbadia.
I'm not saying it would have been easy, but for real love he could have at least tried.
Well no. But nobody says he's gotta wait till he's back to full health. As soon as he can speak he could ask her to get the mesage to Deling City that he was still alive. It's not like he was married to her, but there had been an agreement for another meeting. There was a clear mutul romantic interest. He should have mentioned it to Raine early on. That would have killed any romance with Raine before it began (so it wouldn't be emotionally painful for Raine) and I sincerely doubt Raine would have wanted him to stay, if she knew another woman was waiting for him. And the rest of the village? They wanted him out ASAP.Quote:
Originally posted by Big D
Well... that, and the fact that he nearly died and had to deal with the small matter of recovering. What was he supposed to do...
"Hi Raine. Thanks for nursing me back to health, but I'm going to go now without repaying your kindness, because there's this singer in the capital city I've got a crush on."
And that weakness caused Julia much pain.Quote:
Laguna's a shy individual, not very confident with women, so he probably didn't realise just how much he meant to Julia and never expected her to wait for him.
He kind of got swept away by events in Winhill and Esthar, too. He couldn't just walk away and risk/sacrifice the lives of others just to pursue romantic possibilities. [/QUOTE]
Granted. He couldn't walk away of Adel. For one, he had promised to help defeat Adel in exchange for help in saving Ellone. But why didn't he return afterwards? It wasn't like Esthar would collapse if he would leave right? And after he pushed a mega-powerful Sorceress to her doom with his own two hands, I THINK we can safely say he's paid his debt to the Esthar people for helping him free Ellone. But he became president of Esthar. Now TWO possibilities
A: He expected Ellone to return to Raine, not knowing Raine had died giving birth to Squall in the meantime. Bad marks for NOT returning to his wife after paying back his debt to the Esthari people.
B: He DID know about Raine's death in childbirth. WORSE marks, as he might not desert his wife, but he DID desert his son. Granted, that son was probably already in the oprhanage for a while by the time he could honorably return (after Adel's death) but I'm sure Edea would trust him with parenthood of Squall (and if he's fast, with Sis) Heck, the least he could do was giving his son some sign that he was still alive.
Don't get me wrong. I LIKE Laguna. But the man is NOT morally perfect. In a way, his problem is the opposite of Squall. Squall doesn't make any attachements to people. Laguna makes them too easily, and forgets old attachements in favour of the new ones. He abbandoned Julia to Raine, and Squall to Esthar.
Stop using his work as a soldier as an excuse. Did you ever talk to Julia's bodyguard in the bar? He was a higher officer than Julia. He actually threatened Laguna for going near Julia by saying he'd ship Laguna off far, far away from Deling. At least... I think so...
Question!
what happened to Julia after she gave birth to Rinoa?
Julia probably just took care of Rinoa while her father was away with the military. Thats probably why she never hard any bad feelings for her mother in fact she felt Rinoa said that she use to feel most comfortable when her Mom was holding her.
Hmmm...If I'am not mistakin, Julia must be deceased because Rinoa uses the past tense when she talkes about her mother.:cry:
Oh she's dead alright. But I dont remember it saying just when exactly she died. Julia may have gotten sick somewhere down the line and passed on because of it.
Julia died in a car accident when Rinoa was about five years old.:cry:
It's in the Tutorial somewhere...
You have a lot of good information, D. I agree Rinoa and Squall are definetly NOT siblings. I think Laguna and Julia definetly were attracted to each other, but it wasn't meant to be, they each found someone else. I think Laguna and Raine fell in love all on their own. Laguna loved Raine, and acted as a father to Ellone. Then Laguna married Raine, and had Squall with her. Laguna seems like such a cool guy until he totally abandons his own son! I don't understand why he just left Squall and Ellone like that. I don't understand why they made his character like that, it just doesn't seem to fit. You would think that after losing Raine, Laguna would want to be even closer with his son and stepdaughter.
mmmm... This is about squalls dad so...
Celes Laguna demonstrated the will to see his little elleone, but fate played the cards against him so many times. It seems that every time that Laguna managed to track down elle, he was marginally late. By the time Squall meets Laguna many years have past and we see a bit of a mixed reaction. Elle is happy to see Laguna, while Squall can only see the man as the father he never had. Squall and Laguna do not connect on the personal level, but in nature they connect absolutely. The Mooba blood scene, the shumis, ragnarok, the sorceress wars and the repeated love.. i.e. Squall and Rinoa complete the chain of Laguna and Julia.. demonstrate the cyclical nature of events.
Although pheonix somehow manages to maintain that these events are all due to a poorly written plot, one can see that these works would have been impossible on a conscious level. The relationship between Tidus and Jecht was overt, forced and obvious...FF8 capture the fallen son theme perfectly, and in an ironical twist it is the son who unwittingly rejects his father not by ignoring him, but by forsaking him on account of his personality. Laguna represents the traits that Squall despises and if Squall has a conscious knowledge of who his father actually is (it is debatable) Squall chooses on his own instincts, not to embrace Laguna.
One could say that this is a condition of teenage attitude (rejecting ones parents....yes that fits nicely) OR one could say that it is an extension of the Platonic forms... The more equal things become the less equal they actually are, and it seems that Laguna and Squall are very equal in many ways, yet they seem so very distant.
By the way.... Have you ever wondered why its Rinoa Heartly and not Caraway? Perhaps Julia used her sir name on the birth certificate for Rinoa...since she did not know Lagunas sir name.
At least in ff8 we can debate mad things like this, all I see in the other FF forums is descriptions and argument.
(except for cases like Sephiroth the king could beat shinobi in an arm-wrestle)
You could say there's a tendency in FFVIII for things to repeat themselves, yes.Quote:
Celes Laguna demonstrated the will to see his little elleone, but fate played the cards against him so many times. It seems that every time that Laguna managed to track down elle, he was marginally late. By the time Squall meets Laguna many years have past and we see a bit of a mixed reaction. Elle is happy to see Laguna, while Squall can only see the man as the father he never had. Squall and Laguna do not connect on the personal level, but in nature they connect absolutely. The Mooba blood scene, the shumis, ragnarok, the sorceress wars and the repeated love.. i.e. Squall and Rinoa complete the chain of Laguna and Julia.. demonstrate the cyclical nature of events.
Gah... must we compare this with other FF's again?Quote:
Although pheonix somehow manages to maintain that these events are all due to a poorly written plot, one can see that these works would have been impossible on a conscious level. The relationship between Tidus and Jecht was overt, forced and obvious...
Mind you that I would CERTAINLY understand Squall if he would reject Laguna as his father consciously. As I said, both Squall and Laguna hurt others and themselves. Laguna by bonding to easy with others (forgetting his old bonds) while Squall hardly makes any bonds with others at all, holding on to being a SeeD.Quote:
FF8 capture the fallen son theme perfectly, and in an ironical twist it is the son who unwittingly rejects his father not by ignoring him, but by forsaking him on account of his personality. Laguna represents the traits that Squall despises and if Squall has a conscious knowledge of who his father actually is (it is debatable) Squall chooses on his own instincts, not to embrace Laguna.
I really doubt the makers of FF have let themselves be inspired by Plato. Genesis, yes. After all, with names as Garden, Eden, and such, it's clear they're going for a theme. but Plato... nah...Quote:
One could say that this is a condition of teenage attitude (rejecting ones parents....yes that fits nicely) OR one could say that it is an extension of the Platonic forms... The more equal things become the less equal they actually are, and it seems that Laguna and Squall are very equal in many ways, yet they seem so very distant.
I would say Rinoa calls herself like that because of a bad relation with her father. And I think it's been shown that Laguna cannot be Rinoa's father.Quote:
By the way.... Have you ever wondered why its Rinoa Heartly and not Caraway? Perhaps Julia used her sir name on the birth certificate for Rinoa...since she did not know Lagunas sir name.
[quote] In a way though, you could say that Rinoa acts a lot like Laguna, while Squall seems to be much more akin to Caraway then Laguna. Oidipous and Elektra anyone? (no, no, not saying the makers read Sophokles or something, just a general thing that often seems to come back in lots of cultures. And Squall should fall for someone like RAINE for a proper Oidipous thingie. And I'm rambling and putting way too much stuff between parentheses)
*burns a few candles in front of the altar of the God of Not Getting Into FFVII VS FFVIII debates*Quote:
At least in ff8 we can debate mad things like this, all I see in the other FF forums is descriptions and argument.
(except for cases like Sephiroth the king could beat shinobi in an arm-wrestle)
I'm agnostic, but.... just for this case I'll make an exception.
Besimudo, yes it shows cyclical natures. But it wasn't like they did it cleverly. They just stopped the flow of the regular plot, and jumped into making you play through the same thing with Laguna.
Laguna being Squall's father was ruined by the Ragnorok bits, and didn't add to the story much at all (excluding cyclic themes).
I don't know how lazy you are with other forums, but there are plenty of theories and debates for VII, probably more than VIII.
I would just like to clarify with raven, that the sorceress is the descendent of the great Hyne (god).. So the sorcs do have a mythical origin.. as I pointed out..but no you doubted me...and i guess you shouldn’t have....
I commend Al on classical spellings... I hope also that you accept Kronos over Cronos !
As for phoenix.. the sepi / jenova theme was what I would call mediocre, It lacked the interest of the other FF title. (throws a few more unsubstantiated claims in), then reminds besimudo that FF7 has some good forum debate.
I wanted to understand this, really I did.Quote:
As for phoenix.. the sepi / jenova theme was what I would call mediocre, It lacked the interest of the other FF title. (throws a few more unsubstantiated claims in), then reminds besimudo that FF7 has some good forum debate
When are you told Laguna is Squall's dad? I've only ever gotten as far as Ultimecia's Castle and never heard anything about it. Are you told afterwards, nearer the end of the game?
Go speak to Laguna and Co. on the Ragnorok before Lunatic Pandora, thats when it's pretty much confirmed.
It's all throughout the game, and the hints are about as subtle as a brick.Quote:
Originally posted by Darkness
When are you told Laguna is Squall's dad? I've only ever gotten as far as Ultimecia's Castle and never heard anything about it. Are you told afterwards, nearer the end of the game?
I think in some cases, the story of Laguna and Julia somewhat mimic the situation with Quistis. Quistis was attracted to Squall, but it was simply not meant to be. Laguna and Julia probably could have had a wonderful relationship. Laguna had made frequent stops to watch Julia, and their relationship was just budding.
I think being called off to war is a bit different than a "job." Soldiers (particularly in such a strong militant country such as Galbaldia) don't really have a choice when it comes to being shipped out. Laguna didn't want to leave.
But in the end, it all worked out, didn't it?
In all honesty, I don't think that Laguna knew Raine was pregnant. And if he did know, he must have thought that he would return home soon. He has such a large heart and can't tell anyone no, which would explain him staying in Esthar. I don't think he meant to abandon Raine or Squall on purpose. When he caught wind of Raine's death, I'm sure it would have been extremely painful for him to return to Winhill. So he probably buried himself in his work.
Winhill didn't like Laguna. I wouldn't be suprised if they didn't tell Laguna about Squall, that he died in childbirth along with his mother.
That is my own personal theory, anyway.
He did't knew. think about it, if he did he would have searched for squall like he searched for ellone. he didn't because he didn't knew he existed.
besides i think the game says something like "short after laguna left, raine discovered she was pregnant" or something like that.
Perhaps they made love the night before he left, as a consolation or a remembrance of their love.
>he didn't knew he existed.
I think that's right, but Ellone could have told him...
I believe, that there's a strong relationship between father and son, so Laguna and Squall were noticing that there's a connection, anyway ;)
True, bud when Squall appeared, he DID know. How long did he know? And he DID know Ellone was alive. And Ellone knew Squall was alive (I thought they were sent to Edea's oprhanage together) Couldn't he have stayed in touch by her.
And Laguna HAS a big heart indeed. Problem with big hearts is that, after a while, there's so much in it you're bound to betray one you love for another one. You can be loyal to only so many...
Also, My spelling. Well, I am studying to teach Latin, so I better keep my spelling correct. But Dutch doesn't really change the names as much as English, so all Dutch speaking people refer to Plato as Plato. And if I'm talking about the son of Ouranos who castrated his father and stuff like that... yes, then I refer to Kronos. Any other characters can have their names spelled as they like.
(I also spell Caesar as kajzar... yep, I'm a pedantic bastard like that.)
Ellone did know, and she did tell Laguna. When they met up.
Ellone and Squall were sent to live in the orphanage.
Five or six years later (maybe even more, it is hard to judge) Ellone disappeared. But where too? From deductive reasoning we can say that it wasnt Laguna who came and picked her up, because he would have taken Squall as well. Edea must have placed Ellone in a more secure area.
Ellone stayed under the care of Edea and the White SeeD up until the Estharians came to the White SeeD ship. (We learn this when Squall visits the ship and talks to the SeeDs) Ellone is then escorted into space where at last she meets Laguna and tells him everything.
Laguna indicates that he has much to tell Squall about when the mission is all over... Then he said something along the lines of "if you dont wish to hear about it, thats ok".
It seems that Squall, rejected the offer to hear what he (as the player) had already deduced. This is one interesting feature of Squall, it is generally the player who reacts to his internal "chaos", this is very contrasting compared with Clouds literal breakdown, when squall "broke down" he told the player and the sleeping angel (Rinoa). Cloud put on a public demonstration for the team... and afterwards his character was deminished (appeared weak).
Besides, when I saw Laguna standing in the presidential palace, I reacted similarly with Squall “what is this idiot doing here”.
This is the universal form of the “leader” …He is naturally friends with everyone, yet the most important people suffer. This is followed in The Three Kingdoms with the Character of Liu Bei (I am sure some people have played Dynasty warriors or better still read the novels). Liu Bei (Xaunde) pledges fraternity to Guan Yu and Zhange fei… This is fine when they operate as warriors but when Liu bei becomes involved in expanding the kingdom of Shu he is forced to betray their oath and then Guan Yu is captured and killed. Shortly after Zhang fei learns of the death of his brother and goes on a rampage (resulting in death).
NOTE: that Laguna was also part of a trio, it seems that this theme is universal….yet again we see more parallels with higher literature.
http://www.eyesonff.com/ff8/ency/s.shtml
Look up Squall
it may or not be true, but it is what eyesonff says it is, and they are the ones that hold this forum so who knows.
Laguna and Raine were married and had a kid so Squall's real name is Squall Loire.
*gives Metasephiroth a gold star*
Hehe,I've seen these thread many times already and i just love answering these questions...And indeed squall's father is laguna(they really don't look alike do they?)
If Rinoa and Squall arnt related--why do they make Julia (former lover of Laguna) Caraway's wife--its obvious that Caraway needs to be in the plot (assasination of the sorc) but why does he need to be married to Julia--is it simply to have Rinoa love the son of the man her mother loved and see the similarities in the song she wrote about Laguna--or are they related?
Well, probably what happened was that laguna left, raine was sad, her comes caraway, and sweeps her off her feet. Then they get married and have a kid, Rinoa.
Now about at this same time Laguna is off in Winhill. So one night him and raine have some drinks, I mean she does work in a bar of some kind, and end up in bed, to be blunt. Then she gets pregnant, but no one knows except her and ellone.
But then ellone get taken away, and laguna goes out searching for her.
Meanwhile raine is pregnant and having squall, but he doesnt know that.
So while he is looking for Ellone, squall is born, and raine dies giving birth to him. So now squall is an orphan, hence going to the orphanage.
Now he meets back up with ellone at the orphange but they dont know they are related, cause everyone calls her sis, but he has an evan bigger attachment to her than everyone else, cause they are brother and sister. Then she is taken away and he waits for her.
Finally he is old enough to go to garden which he does, him siefer and quistis. Okay time goes by........................ then
Ellone starts sending him back as laguna, why so he can try to change lagunas actions so instead of going to look for her stays with raine, and figure out he has a son.
And along the way squall meets rinoa, who know the song eyes on me cause her mom probably sang it to her often. And so on. Its a really big circle.
Hope I didnt get off the subject.
Why's this still being discussed...? Laguna is Squall's father. That's that. End of discussion. Laguna and Raine got married. They took part in the play called "The Birds and the Bees". Raine got pregnant. Laguna had to go somewhere with Kiros and Ward(Dollet, right?). Raine gave birth to Squall Loire, then died. Laguna is Squall's father. Isn't that enough?
Don't revive old threads.