the church vs. the bar. What image they wanted you to have of the two girls

The difference between Tifa and Aeris can be almost directly related to where you first meet them at. Where they either work at or where they spend alot of their time at.


I think the image that alot of people have of Tifa that she was a slut and things can be based off of where you first meet her at. The Seventh Heaven Bar. You can say it relates to how she dresses. But I think it is based more along the lines of where they had you see her first at.

And along the same lines for Aeris. The image that people have of her can be directly related to where you first meet her at. At a church.

People generally give the symbolism of Aeris that she is not necessarily one who puts out. But that she is one who kind of plays games. Hence which is kind of a symbolism somewhat of a church girl.

I think the game makers had you meet the two girls in the locations which you did for very specific reasons.

Well, it was set up like that for all the characters, really, except for Red XIII and Yuffie.

Interesting...
That kind of thinking really can be applied to everyone.

Cait Sith - met in the Gold Saucer, a Shinra-owned place of gambling and artificiality - a reference to Cait Sith's fortune-telling 'skill' and his synthetic nature, perhaps, not to mention his (SPOILER)affiliation with Shinra.

Cid's in his rocket, 'nuff said.

Vincent's dwelling in that coffin.

Red XIII is found in Hojo's lab. He's out of his element, alone in a 'world' completely unlike his own. It's almost a description of his entire existence.

Yuffie appears at random, in the untamed wilderness, wherever she pleases to show up. Sounds like her...

I know I've skipped a few characters, but the 'stories' told by their starting-points aren't really too remarkable, in my opinion.

I don't think we're meant to read too much into it, though - with Tifa and Aeris especially. The semiotics associated with the Church and bar are supposed to say a little about the characters - Tifa's self-sufficient, independent style or Aeris' contemplative and slightly lonely persuasion - but it'd be unfair to construct a complete picture of someone based entirely on one aspect of their involvement in the story.

Dio owns the Gold Saucer, not Shin-Ra.

Dio's the manager but if you look at the large map on the main floor - the place by the station, with the holes leading to the various squares - the last message on that map says

Make your dreams... today
-Shinra

or something along those lines. It's clearly a ShinRa-owned facility, just like nearly everything else on the Planet that's either a) monolithic or b) capable of earning money.

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Originally posted by Big D
Make your dreams... today
-Shinra

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Maybe it's a recruitment poster? I dunno. Don't know which one of you is right, but that thought just popped into my head.

But it's at the end of a description of the Gold Saucer's features and attractions... rather than suggesting that readers join ShinRa, it's imploring them to enjoy the Gold Saucer. Hmm.

Big D has an intresting point. Even if shinra don't own the Golden saucer, I beleive, like very other place in the dam world, Shinra have some control

Don't you meet Aeris as the flower girl, before you get to the church scene though? :p

True, but I don't really count it. You don't get any isnight into Aries peronality until you meet her the second time

yep, you don't find out who Aeris really is until you meet her in the church. Before that she just seems like another random character that they put in to liven up the background.

Aeris on the streets is like Cait Sith in the Honey Bee Inn. And Dio has to own the Gold Saucer, because he's the one who has a giant golden statue of himself at the very top of it. With angel wings.

Oh i'm quite sure He owns the golden saucer. But shinra have the fingers in many pies. They have the world in their hands. Whos to say Dio isn't Shinra's b****?
There is a lot of small finncy detail in this game, and all of it seems to hint at something. Don't you think that poster was to?
Maybe i'm wrong but who knows?

The point is that Dio is simply too awesome to be a Shin-Ra lapdog. No one with a weak will would have the gall to walk around his place of business wearing nothing but speedos.

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Originally posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi
The point is that Dio is simply too awesome to be a Shin-Ra lapdog. No one with a weak will would have the gall to walk around his place of business wearing nothing but speedos.

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That's true. Look at Kuja in FFIX. He's a bad-ass in his underwear.

But back on the topic, it all seems "common sense" to me that you meet them in a place that fits their personality. It wouldn't make sense to meet Aeris knocking the stuffing out of guys at the beginning of the game, just like it wouldn't make sense for Tifa to be tending to the flower garden. It shows that Square put some thought into the characters to make sure that they are true to their personalities, which is a flaw that a lot of games tend to make these days, where the characters' personalities are sacrificed and twisted just to make the story make sense(which it still doesn't a lot of the time).

[q=Flying Mullet]It shows that Square put some thought into the characters to make sure that they are true to their personalities, which is a flaw that a lot of games tend to make these days, where the characters' personalities are sacrificed and twisted just to make the story make sense[/q]Yeah, like in FFIX, where Zidane meets the lonesome yet noble and valiant knight Freya in a seedy bar in one of Lindblum's districts; and Irvine in FFVIII, who's lying in a garden admiring a butterfly when you first encounter him. He looks like he's really sleepy or on drugs or something...

As for Dio...
He was definitely a veteran of ShinRa's army during the Wutai war, but it's also clear that the Gold Saucer is his, for the most part. ShinRa, though, do have some kind of financial interest in the place - perhaps they're just the majority shareholders or something? Whatever the case, ShinRa's presence is large enough that they feel it's necessary to welcome all the Saucer's visitors.

Plus you know, attached prison in the middle of nowhere? Entrance in North Coral? It just wouldn't be possible for it to exist without Shinra, where would the money come from, how would Dio have gotten the rights to North Coral, why would Dyne be being held there?

I don't think the places were intended to ilustrate the characters. In fact I'd say they were the opposite, designed to be misleading but done perfectly with the plot. The girls had to be there as they really had nowhere else they could fit with the exception of maybe fighting for a living or working in Wall Market.
Tifa is found in a bar wearing a tiny outfit, but is infact a caring, honest, childhood sweetheart.
Aeris is found in a pink dress in a church, but is in fact a flirt with a liking for spikey hairs professional killers.

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Originally posted by Big D
Yeah, like in FFIX, where Zidane meets the lonesome yet noble and valiant knight Freya in a seedy bar in one of Lindblum's districts

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Lonesome yet noble and valiant knights need to drink, too, y'know.

*INCOMING DISC 1 SPOILERS*

Yes, I do agree that SquareSoft wanted to convey the character's personality in some form or way. But I would have to disagree that the bar is a "slutty" setting, at least, in the case of Tifa's 7th Heaven. It isn't really the typical/stereotypical bar.

Firstly, if you look deep enough into the setting of the bar, you'll see that it really does stand away the stereotype. Things such as it being dirty, filled with smoke, and a gloomy atmosphere in general, etc., is basically void from the scenery. Instead, it seems quite homely, such as something you would find from a neighborhood restaurant. It just seems very serene...Not very whoreish at all. On top of that, Tifa, for some reason allowed Marlene to take care of the bar (As...Funny as that may be.). I think it would be because the neighborhood is actually quite good, despite all appearances.

But it being a bar still remains a fact, of course. I think this shows not that Tifa is whoreish, but instead that she has lived a fairly rough life so far, but has succeeded in finding a way to care for herself, and become independant.

Of course, I myself may be looking too deeply into it, or speculating too much, but I think that can be fun, haha.

Also, about the Golden Saucer. I get the feeling that Shin-Ra could be more of a sponsor, than an actual actual owner (Although it is quite possible that they own certain "stock".). I do agree with Big D that Dio may have been a veteran of the war between Shin-Ra and Wutai, though, it'd make some sense.

Perhaps, also, because Dio was a veteran in the war, he was given a "gift" by Shin-Ra, so to speak, and that could have been the Golden Saucer, money to fund it, or something as such. Because of that, there name could be rightfully posted inside without much trouble. But even with this, Dio is the manager, or the owner, so he therefore retains his rights as well.

The reason I don't think that Shin-Ra has much control over the Golden Saucer is because of the event with the Desert Prison. But, firstly, about the rights to North Corel. Even though I may be going a bit TOO deep into this, isn't it possible that because of North Corel's very poor economy, which was spawned from Shin-Ra's rampage, that they had agreed to a request from Dio? It would obviously be profitable, whether Dio had offered money, or because people would simply pass through.

But about the Desert Prison. This is where I think you were wrong, PhoenixAsh, but this is just my opinion. Remember, the Desert Prison is a natural prison, as said by Cait Sith. They did have a few guards posted, but other than that, the desert itself had fulfilled most of the requirements of keeping the prisoners from escaping.

Another thing about the Desert Prison is that, if Shin-Ra was really in control of the Golden Saucer, wouldn't have Dio, or Golden Saucer staff/Shin-Ra officials, have been notified to be on the lookout for AVALANCHE? The only real Shin-Ra official that had known of AVALANCHE's whereabouts within the Golden Saucer was Cait Sith/Reeve, who could have most likely just followed them with the help of Shin-Ra's intelligence. That would be my take on the story and the situation though, I may or may not be missing something.

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Originally posted by SOLDIER #819
*INCOMING DISC 1 SPOILERS*
Another thing about the Desert Prison is that, if Shin-Ra was really in control of the Golden Saucer, wouldn't have Dio, or Golden Saucer staff/Shin-Ra officials, have been notified to be on the lookout for AVALANCHE? The only real Shin-Ra official that had known of AVALANCHE's whereabouts within the Golden Saucer was Cait Sith.

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Who says Shinra didn't put him there for that prupose? I mean why was he just hanging around? He seemed awfully intrested in the sight of cloud from the moment he saw them

Mukki and his friends are living proof that a lot of guys are awfully interested in Cloud from the moment they see him.

Especially big, scantily-clad and bearded/moustachioed men.

***SPOILERS AHOY!***

GAR! Just typed a load in here and deleted it!

Basically, I think Shinra owns the Gold Saucer. Dio merely manages it. The statue (which sounds like he is in a victory pose) is probably because he is the Battle Arena champion...

However, I think the location of the prison is just a coincidence - desert to keep prisoners in the prison, and scum out of the GS...

(SPOILER)BTW: When you go to the GS the first time, you get to have a date with one of the ladies, no? Well last time I played it, I went to the Battle Arena almost straight away, and started the whole Barret sub-plot. Not a dat in site! Or am I wrong, and you have to return there later?

As for Aeris - I knew when I bumped into her that she would be important. But then, it seemed obvious since you see her in the opening sequence... Going back to the topic, I think you should treat THIS as the first time you meet Aeris. And what is she doing? She's looking into an electricity/mako conduit, no? I think the link to her character is clear here...

The Tifa, bar, slut suggestion seems a little unfair (tho the Tifa, clothes, slut seems accurate!) I think this just sets Tifa as somebody who can look after herselfin both the long and shurt term... albeit with somebody (in this case Barret) to look out for her...

Now, somebody said Aeris had a thing for spikey-haired mercenaries, right? (SPOILER)Did she go out with Zack, or was that Tifa? I am sure Tifa must have done, but then I do seem to recall Aeris saying she did too... So, both girls went out with Zack? And now they both want Cloud? What a coincidence... Oh wait, Cloud practically is Zack, so it's probably not so bad...

Zild: It's the second time you go there, and it isn't just girls you can do it with... Barret too.

Also, it was Aeris, not Tifa. At least, I have no memory of Tifa saying she did.


**LATE DISC 1 SPOILERS**


Anyway, the incident with the Keystone could suggest either way that the Gold Saucer is Shin-Ra owned. First of all, Dio had the Keystone. The Shin-Ra needed it. If they owned the GS, surely they could make him give it to them right? Instead They had to get Cait Sith to do it.

On the other hand, it's a bit too convienient that the ropeway broke straight after they got the keystone. And then Cait Sith sends them to the hotel, saying "they know me there" Of course they know you, you're with the Shin-Ra! However, this could mean that Cait Sith hung around the Gold Saucer for ages, trying to hide his real identity and make friends with people, so it didn't look like he had sprung out of nowhere.

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Originally posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi
The point is that Dio is simply too awesome to be a Shin-Ra lapdog. No one with a weak will would have the gall to walk around his place of business wearing nothing but speedos.

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he could very well be affiliated with shinra. if u have ever beaten the special match at battle arena, u can get dio's diary, which states on the description that he was in war. my guess is that he was in the war at wutai, but clearly he wasnt born in wutai, and he probably didnt fight for them either. so that leaves shinra. i think he owns it too, but it doesnt mean hes not affiliated with shinra

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Originally posted by Yuffie is a B****
Who says Shinra didn't put him there for that prupose? I mean why was he just hanging around? He seemed awfully intrested in the sight of cloud from the moment he saw them

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I know, I'm very late to replying. Tired. Ouch.

*INCOMING DISK 1 SPOILERS*

But, yes, he was interested in Cloud, but that could have been for a number of other reasons, other than Shin-Ra had alerted him. One being his appearance. Cloud looked like a fighter, and with his eyes showing he had been exposed to Mako, that could be something else.

Secondly, when someone is basically accused of having injured/killed his staff members (Although it had turned out to be Dyne.), then that could also be why he had some interest in him. Also, it could be that Cloud was interesting in seeing him (No, not in that way. =P). The Keystone, and so on, was a prime interest of Cloud's.

And...One more thing! If Shin-Ra had really alerted Dio, then he more than likely would have arrested him on sight, but that didn't happen.

--

Psychotic makes great points, Shin-Ra could have been responsible for transportation out of the Golden Saucer being halted.

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Originally posted by darkchrono


I think the image that alot of people have of Tifa that she was a slut and things can be based off of where you first meet her at.

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a slut? i think that's a little far fetched of you to say, i don't think many people thought that at all. you are right there is different lifestyle, urban vs. suburban if you will...but tifa is a headstrong, confident single woman, who has her own business and lives her own life. i think most women would agree if you want to wear a short skirt because you can, that it's fine. it doesn't really mean anything, the clothes, or working at a bar. she's brute tough, but still a lady, not a slut.

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i think that's a little far fetched of you to say, i don't think many people thought that at all.

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No, there are quite a few of us. And we're a stubborn lot, so don't try and disprove us, 'cuz we won't listen. *winks*

and how does she manage the fighting and kicking with the small skirt on.. hmm.. i for one tried playing hackey-sack with a skirt on at a VICA show and its not fun or easy to do. :tongue:

tifa does seem slutty at first, but the whole lifestream scene with her and cloud tends to change that image.

why is a short skirt mean slut? and in what ways did she act slutty?

nec, you are failing to realize the first impressions people get. When square gave Tifa that outfit what do you think they were wanting us to think. That she was a headstrong, independent young woman. Or that she had had a hard life in the slums and that she lived the type of lifestyle that alot of lower income citizens in cities nowadays live.

As the game went on you may have found out that there was more to Tifa than the slutty appearance.

Just like if you spent enough time around a so called 'slut' in real life you would probably find out that there is more to her than the stigma that she has that she sleeps around would say. But that still wouldn't change the fact that she does sleep around.

I just don't feel that when they were choosing the outfits in which to portray the characters with. And when they chose Tifa's I don't think they had headstrong, independent young woman in mind.

I think they more or less had in mind someone who had led a difficult life. And sleeping around often fits into that category of someone who has led a difficult life.

But that doesnt answer his full question. In what ways did she act slutty? I really cant think of any, offhand. Clothes are only one half of the equation. You can look at any girl and automatically think slut or good girl based on their clothing. And if you spent some time talking to a so called 'slut' in real life, you may find that those rumors are false, and completly based on her clothing.

I could wear a super short mini skirt (which I often do, it's hard to find thrift store skirts that fit my height) and a halter top, but it doesnt change the fact that I'm a virgin. A sexually active girl could don a turtle-necked sweater and a pair of sweat pants and that wouldnt change the fact that she's sexually active.

Actions define a person far more than their looks.

I'd have to agree with the Abominatrix. Clothes are only the half of it. I do, however, think squaresoft wanted a somewhat nasty appearance for Tifa. The entire game could have been played witout her, except (spoiler) at the end, when she saves cloud from falling off the cliff into the center of the world. She was basically put there in my opinion for two reasons, 1; to add sexual attractiveness to the game and 2; to even out the number of girls so its not 5 boys and 2 girls. Square uses a 3/5 ratio it seems when creating character sexes.

from what i remember, it was (SPOILER) cloud who saved her

At the END of the game...does anybody pay attention?

in the beginning iparts i though tifa was somesort of boob showoff-later i found out hi brain was attached to his boobs.She was pretty much the worst character,got much attention and left greater chracters like vincent and nanaki on the background

I never actually thought about the areas affecting your view of the characters but now I think of it yeh it does in a subtle kinda way. But I never thought of Tifa as being a slut, you can tell by the way she welcomes cloud when they first meet, and about the clothes there are a number of reasons to dress like that
1. fashion
2. its what bartenders do
3. to fit in with other people in the slums

And about the gold saucer, I always thought that Shin-Ra funded it in the way on ff8 (dno if its a spoiler but ill tag it anyway) (SPOILER) garden master norg funded the garden and yet cid still 'owned' it

yeah yeah enough about tifa. what about aeris?

it's like from the moment you meet her she immediately latches onto cloud. she's always flirting with him, asking him for a date, etc. i don't really give a crap if she wants to hook up with him, but there's one problem.

what about zack?

aeris was still zack's 'official' girlfriend. we don't find out he's dead until you reach gongaga. so before that she was officially cheating on zack. definitely not the behavior you'd expect from someone you meet in a church.

hadn't it been years since she had seen him.

if your significant other suddenly disappeared and you never saw them again. Would you never act out your attraction towards someone else simply because you had never actually officially broken up with that significant other.

We're not talking about marriage here.

It had been about seven years since he'd last written his parents, yes. But still, it doesnt change the fact that Aeris hangs all over Cloud. That's still not 'church girl' behavior. *shrugs*

Well, she never made any overt 'moves' on him. Most of what she did. I think, was just teasing him because of his romance-shy attitude and actions.

She goes to a Church; that doesn't mean she has to act like a fundamentalist puritan or anything. Her Church is for worshipping the Planet, the Cetra and life in general, I think.

As for Zack... he went away for a routine mission and never came back. After five years, it's understandable that she'd move on. After all, she'd only have been 17 or so when he went away. Teenage romances, for all their many-splendoured wonders, aren't always the most solid or lasting arrangements, it seems...

Of course. But it doesnt fit into this whole 'Tifa is a whore because she runs a bar' and 'Aeris isnt because she hangs out in a church' dealy bob.

...which is why I, like you, have little faith in sweeping generalisations based on characters' environments.

Hmm, Aeris's flirting isn't church girl behavior.

Are you saying church girls can't flirt.

People who attend alot of church social groups often think about sex just as much as the bar hoppers do.

They just tend to be a little more choosey when searching for someone whom they will have sexual relationship with. 'IE' Instead of foolishly falling for the hot guy or girl whom they have nothing in common with accept for physical attraction. They will wait for someone to come along who they are attracted to and also have alot in common with.

Church goers can be quite flirtatious to. They often times just have higher standards and are looking for more than the bar hoppers are.

I think Aeris had high standards though. Which would be church girl behavior.

Actually no, being flirty isnt considered chaste church behavior. I'm not saying that they dont do it, but what I'm saying is, if you're going to hold Tifa to where she appears, then you have to Aeris to where she appears as well. Being overly flirty isnt the correct behavior of a church going girl. Does that make Aeris a bad person? No, of course not. But Tifa isnt a bad person, either. Having 'high standards' really has little to do with it, especially since she jumped on the first guy who reminded her of Zack.

whoa, was it really 5-7 years? oops!

i don't think anybody's saying church girls can't flirt. but (as mentioned above) it's unfair to give tifa the bar person cliche while not doing the same for aeris.

as for the high standards thing. i wouldn't really know, i don't go to church. but, for ther record, not all bar hoppers will just drop their skirt/pants at some hot person.

this is a little late but i will post it any way. the reson that cait sith joined with cloud, is that he knew, he was looking for the key stone because the gold saucer was wired, and he heard them talking about it, and being a shinra agent he knew about the whole black material thing