Mythology References

We all know that the Final Fantasy series tends to involve a lot of mythology in the story line. I was quite suprised to find that FFVIII has at least two strong ties to Ancient American mythology.

The most widely known would be our favorite thunder bird, Quetzy. Quetzy appears in Aztec mythology as a "feathered snake." He reigned as a sky god. Ironically, it was his twin brother Xolotl who was the god of lightening.

The second tie is very subtle. The "Balam" were the Mayan deities who protect people in their daily lives. The Balam ("jaguar") also protect the community against external threats. Interesting, no? Isn't that the purpose of Balamb garden, to protect people in their daily lives, and to protect the community against external threats?

What other mythological references have you found?

Eden, as in the garden of Eden (see the thread about Garden of Eden).

Odin is a god from Scandinavian mytology.

Gilgamesh from the Assyrian epic poem of Gilgamesh. One of the four swords Gilgamesh is carrying is Exbalibur, a reference to the legendary Excalibur of Camelot.

I THINK I've heard of Shiva before, but I can't remember where... Maybe Scandinavian mythology...

Quezacotl like you said was a deity in Aztec mythology.

Cerberus is the three-headed demon dog that guarded the gates of the kingdom of Hades; Hades being the ancient Greek god of the underworld and his kingdom being the land of the dead and NOT hell as its widely believed...

Alexander is definitely a reference to the Greek Alexander the Great.

Chimaira (one of the monsters found in deserts, like Dingo desert and the desert near cactuar island) is a four-headed moster from Greek mythology.

Most of the references concern the GFs.

Shiva is the Hindu (I think) God of destruction.

And yes, most of the references are in GF's, just like the summons on most FFs... I cant think of any others offhand...

Shiva is Hinduisms. It (Shiva has no gender!!) is the destroyer and renovator. It's one of the most im portant gods to them because Shiva keeps the balance of the world.

Kali is hinduism, too, but that would be ff ix ;)

and diabolos is clear: lucifer

Edit: Oh TheAbominatrix, you were typing faster :cry: :p

Can't forget Siren... those are the pretty-singing sea creatures that lured sailors to their demise in Homer's Odyessy.

And Leviathan is mentioned in the Bible a few times.

I can't come up with any more at the moment (Crystal, I think, got most of 'em), but they do seem to be mostly the GFs.

Bahamut is unique to Squaresoft, isn't it?

hm, no bahamut is a fish swimming in world's ozean. sry, I forget the details:(

to siren: I think you mean the Lorely :p , yes that's right! She was sitting on a rock and had long blond hairs (like the GF) and the sailor just had eyes for her, so they didn't keep attention and their ship sank!
But Sirenes are birds, too with human appearance (like our GF, don't forget her wings!)

Der Bahamut ist ein monströser Fisch. Der Legende nach schwimmt er in einem ebenso riesigen See. Ein riesiger Bulle reitet auf seinem Rücken, auf dessen Rücken wiederum ein Berg steht. Auf dem Berg,der die sechs Höllen, die Erde und die sieben Himmel darstellt, steht ein Engel. Der Bahamut ist so groß, daß kein Mensch ihn mit den Augen erfassen kann. Wahrscheinlich wird von ihm der Behemoth abgeleitet.
(this is in german first ;-))
Is a big fish, swimming in a great lake.
a huge bull is riding on his back.
on the huge bull their are 6 holes and the 7 heavens, is an angel.
Maybe is behemoth called by Bahamut
(my english is bad i know)^^

Actually, I thought that "Diablos" in spanish only meant "devil" and not necessarily Satan. I could be wrong. ^,^;;

Diablo means satan in spanish. diablos in spanish is a curse.

Well, then GF Diablos is a curse...no?

Cid does say that the Magical Lamp is a 'cursed item'...
Virtually every GF and significant boss has some mythological meaning or origin. Even some aspects of the plot...
Besimudo would love this thread.

Tiamat

In Babylonian myths, Tiamat is a huge, bloated female dragon that personifies the saltwater ocean, the water of Chaos. She is also the primordial mother of all that exists, including the gods themselves. Her consort is Apsu, the personification of the freshwater abyss that lies beneath the Earth. From their union, saltwater with freshwater, the first pair of gods were born. They are Lachmu and Lachamu, parents of Ansar and Kisar, grandparents of Anu and Ea.
In the creation epic Enuma elish, written around 2000 BCE, their descendants started to irritate Tiamat and Apsu so they decided to kill their offspring. Ea discovered their plans and he managed to kill Apsu while the latter was asleep. Tiamat flew into a rage when she learned about Apsu's death and wanted to avenge her husband. She created an army of monstrous creatures, which was to be led by her new consort Kingu, who is also her son. Eventually, Tiamat was defeated by the young god Marduk, who was born in the deep freshwater sea.

Marduk cleaved her body in half, and from the upper half he created the sky and from the lower half he made the earth. From her water came forth the clouds and her tears became the source of the Tigris and the Euphratus. Kingu also perished, and from his blood Marduk created the first humans.

(Besimudo has arrived)

Just on American myth... The halls of The pseudo Arch d' Triumph in Galbadia is elaborated with Incan artwork.
The American themes early in the game signify natural religion ... (non-organised man living with god (earth) type themes), this is consistent with the Norse themes... Then we begin to see Christian Ideologies enter FF8, influencing, but not replacing the older mythologies. Finally we see the Armageddon take place in Esthar, which the natural order (as it does in all myths "rebirth") manages to overcome/ evade.

FF8 follows a time scale of myth, we see early myth followed by more philosophical myths then we see the break down of mythical tradition in disc 3. As I pointed out the final destination before Ultimacia is the secular Esthar and Space (heaven) this is mans way of attain a "godless" existence, through invention and science.

This pattern follow our world situation...

This ephemeral thread cannot hold a comprehensive myth dissertation... I would gladly write essays until next spring... but this would mean deprivation from the volatile experience of forum contribution.

Is FFVIII the only Final Fantasy that has been influenced greatly by American mythology? I haven't noticed it in the other games.

When you speak of "American" mythology, did you exclude the north American Indian customs?

FF7 featured Cosmo Canyon, which typified the north American traditions.

Well....I never actually finished FF7...so...I wouldn't have recognized it.

And I meant the entire western hemisphere when I said "American."

You're right Wrexsoul.

Siren comes from Greek mythology. Sirens were creatures that sat on seaside rocks and sang to passing travellers. They were beautiful women and their eerie song enchanted anyone who listened to it (Note: Siren's attack on FF8 is a song, which causes Silence). In Homer's 'Odyssey', Ulysses and his crew met Sirens on their journey back to Ithaka. Ulysses knew about the effects of the Siren song, but he desperately wanted to listen to it. So, he asked his crew to tie him up onto the deck and he ordered them to cover their ears and ignore any of his pleadings for freedom. What no-one had lived to tell though, was that when ignored, the Sirens became hideous creatures and took the form they did when devouring a trapped victim.

And on Bahamut... I thought it was the Leviathan that was a huge fish...

I'm almost certain that Leviathan is the demon of glutony, no?

The Minotaur GF located in the Tomb of the Unknown King is a reference to Greek mythology - an ancient legend was that every so often, people from mainland Greece were taken to Crete as human sacrifices to a Minotaur who lived at the center of a great maze. Of course, one day, one of the capturees figured out a way to slay the creature, thus freeing Greece from the horror of the human offerings. The Tomb of the Unknown King is definately what I'd consider a maze, with some nasty little minotaurs in the center, who remain until defeated by Squall and co.

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Originally posted by ShivaBlizzard8
The Minotaur GF located in the Tomb of the Unknown King is a reference to Greek mythology - an ancient legend was that every so often, people from mainland Greece were taken to Crete as human sacrifices to a Minotaur who lived at the center of a great maze. Of course, one day, one of the capturees figured out a way to slay the creature, thus freeing Greece from the horror of the human offerings. The Tomb of the Unknown King is definately what I'd consider a maze, with some nasty little minotaurs in the center, who remain until defeated by Squall and co.

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I keep forgeting all sorts of stuff! And to think I'm greek... You're right about the maze ShivaBlizzard, although what you said is not entirely accurate. So here's the whole myth to anyone interested:

King Minos of Crete wanted to build a maze in his palace grounds in which he would trap a monster. He hired Daedalus, a great architect, for the job. In order to keep the beast content, some people had to be sacrificed. Each year, fourteen people (seven young women and seven young men) from the rest of Greece were brought to Crete to be sacrificed. They were put inside the maze, where they couldn't find their way out and were eventually found and slaughtered by the moster. When the maze was finished, Minos put the monster inside.

The beast, was a half-human. It had the head of a bull and the body of a man. The name of the beast was Minotaur (Minotavros in greek) which comes from the two greek words Minos and tavros. Minos of course, was the name of the King of Crete and tavros is the greek word for bull. So the beast's name meant 'the bull of Minos'.

The rest of the people in Greece were devastated to lose fourteen young people each year, so they decided to do something about it. Another King's son (Note: Ancient Greece had a King for every city, each of which was considered a city-country), King Aegeas' son Thysseus, was a brave young man who decided to give an end to this horrible custom. He went to his father and asked to be one of the seven men sent to Crete as a sacrifice for the Minotaur. He believed that he could kill the Minotaur and return back home safe. His father was of course very concerned and had second thoughts about it, but he finally agreed, having a lot of faith in his son who was a great warrior.

Before Thysseus left for Crete, he and his father made an agreement. The ship which would be taking him to Crete and back, would have two different kinds of sails. Black ones for bad news (meaning if Thysseus died in the maze) and white for good news (if Thysseus returned back alive). When the ship left, the sails were black, because it was a sad day for Aegeas to let his son go and face such a hideous beast.

When Thysseus arrived in Crete, he was taken before King Minos, along with the other thirteen men and women. There, he saw Minos' daughter Ariadne and they both fell in love at first sight. Ariadne naturally, didn't want to let Thysseus die, so she decided to help him find his way out of the maze. The day before he was about to go into the maze, she met him and gave him a long piece of string. She advised him to tie it up at an end in the entrance of the maze, so that he could find his way back after (hopefully) killing the Minotaur.

And so it happened. Thysseus was found by the Minotaur inside the maze and after a mighty struggle he was victorius. He then found his way back outside following Ariadne's string. His beloved one was waiting for him outside. Thysseus embraced her tightly and they both went to her father, where Thysseus asked to marry her. Minos reluctantly agreed, so they both left for Thysseus' home in order to get married there.

The feast on the ship back was huge; everyone was celebrating Thysseus' victory and his upcoming marriage with Ariadne. But everyone's enthusiasm was so great, that they forgot to change the ship's sails to white! King Aegeas was waiting for his son's return on a cliff patiently. When he saw the ship approaching, he noticed that the sails were black. Devastated by the loss of his son, Aegeas jumped right off the cliff into the sea down below, thus killing himself. From that moment on, the sea in which Aegeas jumped in, is called the Aegean sea.

THE END


EDIT: In a thread about Fujin and Raijin Big D said that these are the names of the japanese gods of Wind and Thunder respectively. I just thought that it belonged here...

Behemoth is described as a large creature with legs like ceder trees in the Bible.

Ifrit, originally spelled Eefret (I think...), is one of the highest classes of Jinn in the arabic culture. These creatures are said to have fire instead of blood running through their veins, thus Ifrit having the element of fire in the game. Jinn, for those who don't know, is the original name for what we today call genies.

If you are Greek, why then did you refer to Ulysses (Roman), rather than the classical Greek Odysseus?


As I pointed out, the timing of the GF's appearance in the game is more uncanny than the significance of the tradition itself.

In Quetzalcoatl and shiva, we see the two sides of Knowledge; creative and destructive, respectively, looming over the characters.

Then enters Ifrit, the heart of the battle. Notice that Squall treats the acquisition of Ifrit as a trivial thing... When Quistis asked "Squall have you taken your first test?" Squall answered "no, I forgot". This causes a subconscious reference in the players mind, that myths and mysticism, have been reduced to mundane realms. It is similar to today’s world...we have some knowledge of tradition, yet we prefer to treat it as something primitives relied on.

FF8 presents the modernistic approach, that mysticism is less powerful than technology (Dr. Odines bracelet). This is much like our current world and that of Ancient Greece, Egypt and the Aztec empire, before the time that these cultures encountered the "Armageddon". People become/became enthusiastic about the physical realm and abandon/abandoned the spiritual.

The modern world simply explains these events in terms of "the Romans invaded" or the "Spanish invaded"... Yes they certainly did, but we elevate local phenomena without understanding the movements of the universe.
Both the Greek and Aztec Mystics had foreseen the collapse of their empires generations before it actually occurred. Modernists would call these prophecy (even the precision of Aztec mathematics) mere coincidence!

Another perspective; mystics in the biblical world have foreseen a "holy fire", could this holy fire simply be ancient interpretation of the nuclear holocaust?
If I were a meditative mystic and the inspired image of a world consumed in fire entered my head, I too would be astonished by the revelation. Why is it a holy fire? well the mystics witnessed a world engaged in pursuits of the body, long life, sex and free will. The miserable existence (physical pleasures) the people of the today (the future to the mystics) would be nothing compared with the instantaneous spiritual salvation, that the fires would have appeared to bring. So the mystics interpreted the vision as a blessing from heaven, releasing the men of pleasure from their condemned lives.

Another GF of significance on the first disc is Diabolos.
It is almost as if Cid has staged the whole:

Squall meets Rinoa
Battle with Edea
And the fall of Garden.

By giving Squall the cursed lamp, an object that Squall can open at his leisure (analogous to Pandora’s box). Cid invites Squall to bring the "new wave" by embracing the darkness. While Seifer is off representing the Heavens (sorceress and Great Hyne), Squall is taking his first step in aligning himself with the darkness.

Anyhow, that is a margin of the setting in Disc 1. There are many other themes to explore. If I went "off the track" with the historical examples; this was to justify mystic thought both in FF8 and the "real world".

You keep forgetting about Rangarok.

This is, in Norse Myth, the end of the world. Can't say i know much about Norse Myth though, even though i am from the region.

And Fenrir and Jormungand found in other FF's are also from Norse myth.

The one thing that bothers me the most about the references to Norse Myth is how they picture Odin.

In the FF's Odin rides a six legged horse and has a stupid helm with horns, he has two eyes and his ravens are nowhere to be found.

Sleipner, Odins mount, is an eight legged horse.
Odin only had one eye, since he willingly sacrificed one of his eyes to gain knowledge.
His ravens, Hugin and Munin, where his eyes-and-ears on Midgård (Middlearth for all you out there)(Midgar in FF VII also being a reference to Norse Myth) where the humans lives.

One thing that i'd like to see in a future FF when you summon Odin is seeing his ravens hovering over the poor victim. They then fly back to Asgård (where the gods from Norse Myth lived) and sitting down on each of his shoulders telling him of what they've seen. He then rides out from Asgård and strikes down upon the enemy.

That would make me happy.

Well, the FF games have always altered the details of the myths they use. If the events and references in the games were perfect reproductions of actual myths, they'd be boring, unoriginal and predictable.

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Originally posted by Besimudo
If you are Greek, why then did you refer to Ulysses (Roman), rather than the classical Greek Odysseus?

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I dunno... Maybe 'cause I thought most people here would recognize Ulysses rather than Odysseus

You´re forgetting Fuijin and Raijin, they´re both japanesse gods. Fuijin was the wind god and... yes!!!! you guessed... Raijin was the thunder god.

Grendel and Gilgamesh are characters of the epic history Beowulf. In which grendel is a monster that threatens a town and Gilgamesh defeates it.
Cerberus, Phoenix, Siren, Minotaur are from Greek mithology
Quetzacoatl is from aztec mithology (in fact it´s written Ce Acatl Quelzalcoatl, he was a prince who was deceived by his cancellors and sweared vengance)
Odin and Ragnarok are from escandinavia
Shiva is indu
And if I´m missing something... please tell me, ok?

I believe that the portrayal of the gods in FF8 was comic relief. Witnessing a female shiva and an oriental Odin was quite amusing for me.

Neeber, would that be a deadly blow from grungir?

If the GFs were mythically accurate, it would seem too hollywoodish. I prefer a little crazy Japanese antics, over the ultra cool American "realistic" style.



One peculiarity in myths is the universal element; Lena's Mexican account of Quetzalcoatl rings a familiar Shakespearian bell. Of course, I am speaking of the prince of Denmark, Hamlet.

People from China tell stories that resemble those told in Norway. One in particular tells of a priest who is obsessed by his wealth, upon showing his hoard to a friend, the friend answers "thank you for giving me your treasure"... to which the priest retorts "I have not given you my jewels". The friend replied "Yes, but all you do is look at them, and I too have know seen them. I am richer because I do not have the burden of keeping them safe, yet I gain the same pleasure from seeing them as you do".

I believe that humans are privy to the one absolute idea, from this we gain knowledge. Just as a seed grows into a tree, humans grow into men. Our environment merely dictates which way our branches may point.

Why is the transatlantic condition interesting? Well, Europeans have only had contact with this contact since the days of Leif Eriksson and the vinland saga, the myths and traditions that developed before hand, and show so many similarities show that humans do respond to the universe.

If we consider the similarities between the Judaic "Eden" and the Australian Aboriginal "dream time". It is clear that humans are aware of the unchanging element of the universe that exists beyond the physical environment. The Hindus confirmed that this physical condition is imaginary. Then it is interesting to learn that even Einstein’s most fundamental truth falls victim to the every expanding physical universe (the speed of light is not constant).

P.S. Gilgamesh existed in the Babylonian epic many years before Beowulf.

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Originally posted by Besimudo
Neeber, would that be a deadly blow from grungir?

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Exactly, and the one handing him the Gugnir before he rides out would be the Valkyrie Ravdna.

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If we consider the similarities between the Judaic "Eden" and the Australian Aboriginal "dream time". It is clear that humans are aware of the unchanging element of the universe that exists beyond the physical environment.

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Very true - many ancient myths are not specific to one particular culture or civilization, but rather are found in some form or another almost universally. For instance, almost every civilzation has some variation of Noah's Flood recorded in their histories, and most cultures have a version of the Cinderella story. It is fascinating to think that despite our differences, there is an element in the human psyche which is constant.

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I believe that the portrayal of the gods in FF8 was comic relief. Witnessing a female shiva and an oriental Odin was quite amusing for me.

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Despite Shiva's Hindu origins, all the FFs portray the creature as a female, not just FF8. ;)

What about the Sphinx? (I think I remember the details) It was a mythical creature with a lion's body and a human face, that would lie outside the gates of Thebes and quiz people who passed:

"What walks on four legs in the morning, two legs at noon, and three legs in the evening?"

People who answered wrong got devoured, until Oedipus came along and answered correctly. Then he got to become king and marry Jocosta, the queen (who was unbeknownst to either of them, his mother).

Of course science and exploration have displayed mythology to a certain extent, since many myths were attempts to explain natural phenomena:

"Lightning means Zeus is mad and throwing thunderbolts."

"It's winter because Persephone is in the underworld and Ceres is greiving."

I doesn't see these explainations as foolish. People have always wondered why things happen and mythology was a way to explain things.

Where was the Sphinx in FF8?

I belive there was a Sphinx-like creature in Ultimecias castle.

Sphinxaur guards the main entrance hall in Ultimecia's castle. *Spoiler* If you pummel it enough, it turns into Sphinxara, sort of a 2-in1 boss.

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Originally posted by neeber
I belive there was a Sphinx-like creature in Ultimecias castle.

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Oh yeah... But like you said 'Sphinx-like', not the actual thing itself. Anyway...