Sephiroth... major spoilers that might change your view on who is the best villain!!!

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08-17-2003, 11:46 PM
§håd0w

Sephiroth... major spoilers that might change your view on who is the best villain!!!

Ok, I'm not gonna mark this, since the title specifically states there are gonna be many spoilers floating about.

Sephiroth is speculated to be in his 30s, but that is physcally impossible. Sephiroth is actually the youngest character in the game aside from other NPCs. Vincent once dated Lucrecia, and she gave birth to Sephiroth. At the youngest, Vincent might have been 16 when he was in the Turks, but more than likely he wasnt any younger, since that was when Cloud "joined SOLDIER" was around 16. Vincent has been alilve longer than Sephiroth, seeing as he was alive when Sephiroth was bron, and is only 22 now when the game takes place. Therefore, if Square had given this any thought whatsoever, they would have made Vincent in his 30s. Unless Sephroth ages rediculously fast, which it does not say that anywhere in the game, then Sephiroth is 6-8 years old at the maximum. Which makes me wonder how Cloud knew about him. Square obviously didn't think this over and now it has really screwed the plot up big time.

Cloud states "I wanna be just like Sephiroth." when Sephiroth is only about 2 or 3 when that happens. And the only other thing that could make Sephiroth older is if Vincent was in the Turks when he was about 10. Then that would have put Sephiroth in his preteen years. Its just kinda funny, that everyone looks up to him, and sees him as a wise, older, leader person. When he is only 6-8 years old.

Sephiroth "We have an early day ahead of us"
*menu* 'It's still early' (might not be exact wording)
Choose > 'Let's call it a day'
Sephiroth "Ok, but I'm not waking you up "
08-18-2003, 12:37 AM
MonkeyFellow

Hi, I've noticed you're "flaming" masamune1287 with this post. If you don't have anything to add to the topic, don't post at all. This will be your first warning. -Proto
08-18-2003, 01:31 AM
JonJonB

The crux of your argument is based on Vincent's age, while you fail to realise that coffin he was in was a form of suspended animation (either that or the experiments halted his aging process). Vincent's given age is merely physical, Sephiroth really was in his thirties.
08-18-2003, 01:55 AM
Kawaii Ryûkishi

Vincent was twenty-six years old when he was placed in the coffin, and he slept in stasis there for thirty years. So, while he has the body of a twenty-six-year-old, he's technically fifty-six years old.
08-19-2003, 07:55 AM
PhoenixAsh

Besides Sephiroth being a puppet who gets used or beaten by almost everyone he meets already set him pretty low in my best villain category.
08-19-2003, 09:43 AM
Big D

...Yet I maintain that Sephiroth was the 'superior evil', a heartless blend of Jenova's deceptive malice and Human megalomania, with an unhealthy dose of arrogance and ruthlessness thrown in. The worst of both worlds, if you like.
08-19-2003, 09:58 AM
TheAbominatrix

I fully agree with PhoenixAsh on this one, as strange as that sounds.
08-19-2003, 10:19 AM
Big D

'Jenova or Sephiroth' is one of those long-running debates which gets aired now and then... however, I've been working on a masterpiece thesis which will forever tip the scales of reasoning in favour of Sephiroth.
*Nod*
08-19-2003, 10:26 AM
TheAbominatrix

I dont like either of them, to be honest. Jenova wasnt really actively involved, Sephiroth was far too angsty for me.
08-19-2003, 10:51 AM
Big D

I'm not 'rating' their relative levels of coolness; rather, I'm referring the conspiracy which would have you believe that Sephiroth doesn't really do anything at all in the game after the (SPOILER)Nibelheim incident.
08-19-2003, 10:52 AM
TheAbominatrix

Ah, my mistake.
08-19-2003, 11:04 AM
Big D

...And an easy one to make.:)
Jenova is perhaps one of the least involved FF villains ever, if you go by her level of direct involvement in events during the game.

In answer to masamune1287's original topic, though... the issue of Vincent's age and Sephiroth's age is one that just keeps coming back. The fact that Mr Valentine (SPOILER)spent decades in suspended animation is never directly addressed in the game, at least not in relation to the way it affects his age.
08-19-2003, 01:04 PM
§håd0w

thats what got me, they never mentioned how long vincent was in the coffin, thats how i got this idea.
08-20-2003, 12:10 AM
DaMagicSausage

now isn't their 2 sepheroths... (bad spelling i know) or prehaps a ohysycal projection of one that sepheroth is giving while he is incased in materia... i thought that one of the scientists (probibly hojo) said that the first speheroth clone was the only sucessful one, was created 5 years ago... and the real sepheroth was "killed." I think i confused myself. Anyway i had those two theorys...

1. sepheroth is making a projection of himself though the materia, or 2. the first clone that was created 5 years ago was the only one that lived... maybe he was clones at he full age of 30, so now the clone is 35...

lots of wierd questions here
08-20-2003, 01:00 AM
§håd0w

cloud was really the only succesful clone
08-20-2003, 01:14 AM
DaMagicSausage

I thought they determined that cloud wasn't a clone at all, but was induced with jenovas cell when cloud and zack where taken as prisoner in hojos lab...
08-20-2003, 02:27 AM
Big D

People injected with Jenova cells = 'Sephiroth clones'. Hojo wasn't trying to clone Sephiroth directly, but rather to reproduce the experiment's success.
[q=DaMagicSausage]now isn't their 2 sepheroths... (bad spelling i know) or prehaps a ohysycal projection of one that sepheroth is giving while he is incased in materia... i thought that one of the scientists (probibly hojo) said that the first speheroth clone was the only sucessful one, was created 5 years ago... and the real sepheroth was "killed." I think i confused myself. Anyway i had those two theorys...

1. sepheroth is making a projection of himself though the materia, or 2. the first clone that was created 5 years ago was the only one that lived... maybe he was clones at he full age of 30, so now the clone is 35...
[/q]There was no 'clone made five years ago', but that's when Hojo tried to turn Cloud into a 'clone' by inundating him with Jenova cells. As for the 'two sephiroths' argument... I agree with the idea that Cloud and co are chasing a 'psychic projection' during the game. Some people say they were actually pursuing Jenova in disguise, but that argument simply doesn't survive intense scrutiny.
08-20-2003, 02:42 AM
DaMagicSausage

Was there any explanation why the weapons weren't chasing janova like the planet programmed them to... i remember prof. gast syaing in his home movies that they were supposed to be the "weapons" against janova, not cloud or the citizens of the planet.

I can see why diamond weapon was going after midgar because hojo stated that he injected himself with jenova cells, but that gives no reason why ultima was blowing up every city he can find (other then the fact that cloud had janova cell injected as well when he attacked mindel). Only with the assumtion that there were SOLDIER members in every town in the planet (because they had been injected with janovas cells as well as showered with mako) can i see ultima attacking everything.

Why don't they just attack the center of the planet where sepheroth is hiding with that giant jenove mostrosity?
08-20-2003, 02:50 AM
Big D

Sephiroth was drawing on the Planets's power, shielding himself behind that impenetrable barrier. The Weapons consequently went after other perceived 'threats' - namely, Human population centres, particularly those with Mako reactors. The Weapons weren't created solely to defeat Jenova, but rather to fight against any threats to the life of the Planet.
08-20-2003, 03:18 AM
DaMagicSausage

So was hojo or vincent the father of sephiroth?

Hojo says he injected jenova cells into the womb of one of the babies, i always assumed it was sephiroth, but it just occured to me that he abducted ariths mother while she was pregnant... but she got away at the expense of her husband and already had the baby... so that does only leave sephiroth... nm

Man so maany question can be answered in this thread... just need to clear my mind to think em up.
08-20-2003, 06:00 AM
Doomgaze

Hojo and Lucrecia are Sephiroth's parents.

Anyway. When Sephiroth appears to you the last time before you find his real body in the crater, he says something along the lines of "no longer needing this form" or something. Does it show hum... unpossessing a Clone at that point? Or does it simply fade out? I don't remember.
08-20-2003, 09:28 PM
PhoenixAsh

A Jenova form appears and there is no Sephiroth left where it was. That part is some of the evidence for the Jenova theory, but only a small part.

I don't have time to go into this now, I'll try tomorrow. I'll just be appreciative that Big D actually puts forward opposing theories that I'm not around to make myself.
Although I think the Jenova theory holds up to closer scrutiny than any alternatives.

I knew TheAbominatrix agreeing with me had to be some sort of mistake :).
08-22-2003, 02:47 AM
Big D

Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
A Jenova form appears and there is no Sephiroth left where it was. That part is some of the evidence for the Jenova theory, but only a small part.

Personally, I find it that supports my view quite nicely - after Jenova-DEATH was destroyed, there was nothing substantial left of Jenova's headless body, the lifeless form that broke out of the Shinra building. My reason for saying this...? Birth, Life, and Death - together those form a complete cycle, a whole. Once they were gone, Jenova's body had been expended; all that remained were her head and the few cells liberated from the clones killed by Sephiroth. These combined to form Jenova-SYNTHESIS, which looks like a large entity, but is really very compact - if you happen to see SYSNTHESIS from behind, you'll notice that her ghiant spheroid body is just a hollow shell, trying to look bigger, more menacing, more complete.

...So anyway... once Jenova-DEATH ceased to be, Sephiroth had no more use for his illusory form. All he was doing was 'guiding' the body toward the Reunion; in spite of its strong homing and survival instincts, Jenova's body was helpless without a mind to serve as its guide - just like the 'Clones'. Without Jenova's body to give it substance, Sephiroth's illusory form was nothing more than a 'ghost' - a mere image projected by his mind. Hence why the 'vision' had to use the disguise of Tifa in order to deceive Barret/Nanaki into bringing the Black Materia to Sephiroth's real body. If Jenova's body was still around, Sephiroth would simply have used it to kill the bearer of the Black Materia. Now, I know what you're thinking - why didn't he simply kill Cloud at the Temple, and get the Materia that way, rather than manipulating him? The answer is simple - a test of wills. Cloud's individuality against the power of Jenova's influence; Sephiroth's will against Aeris'.
08-22-2003, 08:49 PM
PhoenixAsh

Jenova SYNTHESIS could equally (or moreso given the significance of the previous names) be an indication that Jenova is immortal, or at least close.

After millenia of wars and space travel the best anyone (an entire race actually) could do to her was slow her down, seems a bit odd that one man with a small amount of her cells is so much more powerful, and a relatively weak version of Cloud and Co. can kill her so easily.

Then there's the fact that only Sephiroth displays any ability to use psychic powers or illusionary skills, and he can use them on a global scale and to unbelievable lengths. No other clone can so much as give you a slight headache.
08-22-2003, 10:14 PM
elemental-force

dont you think your disecting this a little to much?
08-22-2003, 11:37 PM
chocoboy

I've totally lost where this thread started.
Something about Sephiroth being 8....

Did the game even mention anything about "suspended animation"? I mean, he was in a coffin. Like that's gonna suspend somebodies animations! I only got the point that Vincent was tampered with.
Wait... does that mean Vincent has Jenova cells too? He is'nt as powerful as Cloud, Zack or Sephiroth....
I'm really confused now.
08-23-2003, 03:44 AM
Big D

Vincent doesn't have any Jenova cells; he was used fro other, possibly worse, experiments though.
[q=PhoenixAsh]Then there's the fact that only Sephiroth displays any ability to use psychic powers or illusionary skills, and he can use them on a global scale and to unbelievable lengths. No other clone can so much as give you a slight headache.[/q]That's the point - Sephiroth was joining with the Planet, gaining incomparable powers over a period of years - Jenova can't do that; she's not of that world, so her own 'spirit energy' would be incompatible with the Lifestream. Notice that she doesn't use the Black Materia herself? That's further evidence.

Sephiroth's barely- formed foetus was directly infused with Jenova cells; he formed and grew with them in his body. That's a much closer and more powerful melding than the Clones have.

Jenova, on the other hand, was beaten by hte Cetra, sealed in rock for two millennia, dug up, dissected, stuffed in a tank, and ultimately beheaded. That's why she wasn't quite as powerful as she might once have been.
08-23-2003, 04:52 AM
DaMagicSausage

Now i am probibly going to be chastised for bringing up FF-X2... but hey i will leave a walkie talkie out here while i head to my bomb shelter... *sounds of a large door slamming shut and a large locking mechinisim sealing it shut* :shoot: FHHHSSSTTT... Testing... ok.

Now, if infact jenova is imortal don't you think that that could possible be the final boss again... ok now that is over i can move.

Now i thougt that the final jenova was the heart of it, because as you can see behind that hard protective shell there is a heart like shape beating inside of it...

I thought because of that, this form would be the last blow that cloud would be able to attack.
08-23-2003, 08:50 AM
PhoenixAsh

Big D:

Quote:

That's the point - Sephiroth was joining with the Planet, gaining incomparable powers over a period of years - Jenova can't do that; she's not of that world, so her own 'spirit energy' would be incompatible with the Lifestream. Notice that she doesn't use the Black Materia herself? That's further evidence.

The trouble with that is, it never says that Jenova can't join, you just assumed it. Even if she couldn't by the time the reunion had occured (a reunion that I can't explain other than using the Jenova theory), there was enough Jenova in Sephiroth that if she couldn't neither could he IMO.
There's also no evidence that Jenova doesn't use the black materia herself, other than she used Sephiroth's body, which would require believing Sephiroth is in control to support it, which is circular logic.

Quote:

Sephiroth's barely- formed foetus was directly infused with Jenova cells; he formed and grew with them in his body. That's a much closer and more powerful melding than the Clones have.

It is much more, but it doesn't justify Sephiroth having the power to control people across the globe, project images of anyone he wants (which are capable of transporting Jenova who despite all of the things done to her can still turn a small dismembered body part into a huge boss), transform and use illusionary attacks, and fly.
The clones, and even Cloud can't acheive anything along these lines, let alone approach the scale Sephiroth can use.
It's also quite odd that everything 'Sephiroth' does is exactly what Jenova would have wanted.

Quote:

Jenova, on the other hand, was beaten by hte Cetra, sealed in rock for two millennia, dug up, dissected, stuffed in a tank, and ultimately beheaded. That's why she wasn't quite as powerful as she might once have been.

She flew through space and crashed into the planet with a huge amount of force and still took on an entire race. Her body parts can take on your entire party after being removed. I really think she could handle more than you give her credit for.

I won't go into the timing now, which also supports the theory, I think there's enough to go on.
08-23-2003, 08:55 AM
Mikage Aki

1. Hojo is Sephiroth's father (Vincent said that he loved Lucrecia, but he was only able to admire her from far. He never actually got to "sleep" with her o_O)

2. The real Sephiroth is dead, killed by Cloud five years ago in Mt. Nibel.

3. The current Sephiroth that is able to disappear, transform, etc in actually JENOVA, Sephiroth's "mother" (not exactly, Lucrecia is Sephirtoh's real mother)

I can't prove that all my theories are true. I've heard of them, and I believe them. So don't ask me for proofs. -_-
08-23-2003, 09:13 AM
PhoenixAsh

Sephiroth isn't dead, or if he is his body is being used by Jenova. More likely that his mind has been surpressed by Jenovas, if not destroyed.
It's definately his body in the Northern Crater (or at least I haven't seen anything to the contrary.
08-23-2003, 09:15 AM
Big D

Cloud didn't kill Sephiroth at Mt Nibel; he flung him into the Lifestream, where he began amassing huge amounts of power and knowledge, not to mention the ability to psychically diffuse his will around the world. Sephiroth's body is clearly shown in its 'crystal tomb' at the North Crater.

PhoenixAsh: The fact that Cloud delivers the Black Materia to Sephiroth is reason enough to believe that Jenova couldn't use it herself. Materia = crystallised Mako; Mako = spirit energy of the Panet and the Cetra. Jenova was neither of those; hence why Sephiroth was doing all the dirty work.

I'm going on holiday for a couple of weeks now; so meh.
08-23-2003, 07:49 PM
§håd0w

wow... i post this thread, come back a week later and have 2 pages of commotion.
08-23-2003, 09:44 PM
PhoenixAsh

Okay it's a shame Ds gone, but for anyone else I'll respond to his post.

PhoenixAsh: The fact that Cloud delivers the Black Materia to Sephiroth is reason enough to believe that Jenova couldn't use it herself. Materia = crystallised Mako; Mako = spirit energy of the Panet and the Cetra. Jenova was neither of those; hence why Sephiroth was doing all the dirty work.

Sephiroth was a large source of Jenova and was trapped, so the reunion had to go to him. The only other Jenova elements were regrouping very nearby, and probably wasn't in a state to take it.
Or maybe you're right about Jenova not being capable of using materia, and so she used Sephiroth's body to do it. Fits either theory so it seems like pointless stretching to me.

Oh and the abilities you assume he gained in the lifestream bear an uncanny resemblence to the ones Jenova already had :).
08-24-2003, 07:37 AM
Doomgaze

Notice when you first meet "Sephiroth," he doesn't seem to recognize you. I'd guess that this is simply JENOVA emulating Sephiroth to strike fear into the people. She didn't count on one of the "Clones" to resist her power (although, he was subconsiously doing exactly what was needed). The other times you meet him, he knows exactly who you are - whatever you're dealing with, it clearly possesses Sephiroth's mind. Whether its JENOVA or Sephiroth in control of this is debatable, of course...
08-24-2003, 06:25 PM
DaMagicSausage

But if the clones were so important then why does sephiroth keep killing them? I think it was on the order of only the strongest will survive. Like when males of different animal species will fight for a mate. So in the end thier can be only one :D
08-24-2003, 06:31 PM
Doomgaze

Most of them just keeled over and died at the crater. I'm not sure why... maybe that was enough to return JENOVA's power... or maybe their arrival was just a side effect of pulling Cloud in.
08-25-2003, 09:41 PM
PhoenixAsh

Jenova only needed her cells back from the clones, the human bodies would have been little use, so they were free to die once she'd took what she wanted from them.
08-26-2003, 03:07 AM
Raistlin

Oh, yippee. This ol' debate again.

Whether it was a Sephiroth clone, and illusionary personage, or Jenova herself, I don't really know. But I still maintain that Jenova was in charge of Sephiroth(wasn't controlling him, but directing him). There's evidence to this fact in the dialogue throughout the game, for which I will later give specific examples.

Anyways, *is too lazy to read through this whole thread*
08-27-2003, 05:00 AM
Doomgaze

Well, yeah. Sephiroth wouldn't have known about the Black Materia or the Northern Crater by himself.
08-28-2003, 02:16 AM
Raistlin

Well, he knew about the Crater since his body was kinda flung there after the Nibleheim incident. :P

However, he kept revering to Jenova as "Mother" and the "power of Jenova" and then, suddenly, about Cloud and co. being "traitors to the Cetra" and it seemed as if he felt fully justified in what he was doing, which makes me believe that he was being manipulated. I think Jenova was feeding him lies, and, combined with a pull from the Jenova cells, Sephiroth couldn't fight against with his tenuous hold on sanity that he had.
09-07-2003, 12:20 AM
Big D

Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Oh and the abilities you assume he gained in the lifestream bear an uncanny resemblence to the ones Jenova already had :).

Well, Aeris and Sephiroth both used 'long-distance telepathy' - they had 'similar powers', even though she was just a 'normal' Human with a bit of Cetra ancestry. It would seem that 'super magical powers' are the same for nearly every species.

Funnily enough, I agree with what Raistlin has been saying - which is odd, since he and I had completely opposing views the last time this was debated.
09-07-2003, 12:34 AM
PhoenixAsh

Big D:

Quote:

Well, Aeris and Sephiroth both used 'long-distance telepathy' - they had 'similar powers', even though she was just a 'normal' Human with a bit of Cetra ancestry. It would seem that 'super magical powers' are the same for nearly every species.

Oh come on. For a start Aeris is half Cetra, not 'a bit'. Then she's the only other person to use such abilities (other than limits). Then she doesn't even compare to Sephiroth (Jenova). She appeared in a dream once. 'Sephiroth' can take full control of people, project images across the globe, can mutate into giant monsters, can use illusionary magic to the extent of recreating the Solar System, can project images which are somehow capable of carrying Jenova, can cause dozens of people to break down and head to other continents....
09-07-2003, 02:38 AM
Big D

Nah, Aeris is much less than half Cetra. Ifalna wasn't full-blooded, most likely; her line was probably mingled with regular Humans over generations.

As for Sephiroth's other abilities - they came about as a result of his natural Jenova-given powers amplified and enhanced by his 'bonding with the Planet' gig.

Quote:

can project images which are somehow capable of carrying Jenova

As Hojo's reunion theory explained, Jenova's natural instincts allow it to do this to a certain extent. Sephiroth's will wasn't carrying Jenova's body exactly; rather guiding it, since it had to head, no eyes, no mind of its own - unlike the Clones, whose fully-functioning bodies actually allowed the Reuinion to take place.

Quote:

can cause dozens of people to break down and head to other continents....

That was, in part, a result of the Reunion urge. They 'knew' they had to go somewhere; that compulsion came from the Jenova cells within them. Sephiroth's mind and illusory form directed that desire toward him. Killing several birds with one stone, as it were.

The entire reason Sephiroth could use such phenomenal abilities - world-shaking magic, demonic transformations and whatnot - is because of the awesome power he amassed. That's the whole point. He became more than Human, at least in terms of his strength. To say that this proves he wasn't 'really' the villain is like saying that (SPOILER)Kefka can't be the real enemy in FFVI - after all, no Human could ever sprout wings and singe cities with energy beams, now could he?
09-07-2003, 02:56 AM
PhoenixAsh

Quote:

Nah, Aeris is much less than half Cetra. Ifalna wasn't full-blooded, most likely; her line was probably mingled with regular Humans over generations.

Well that's pretty debateable, but either way it was the Cetra in her that let her do magic. Sephiroth didn't have this.

Quote:

As for Sephiroth's other abilities - they came about as a result of his natural Jenova-given powers amplified and enhanced by his 'bonding with the Planet' gig.

But that's the thing, they weren't amplified, they were completely new. Everyone else with Jenova cells got a little stronger, no psychic abilities at all, let alone the stuff 'Sephiroth' could do.

Quote:

As Hojo's reunion theory explained, Jenova's natural instincts allow it to do this to a certain extent. Sephiroth's will wasn't carrying Jenova's body exactly; rather guiding it, since it had to head, no eyes, no mind of its own - unlike the Clones, whose fully-functioning bodies actually allowed the Reuinion to take place.

So then what was the point of making Jenova look like Sephiroth. If all he was doing was guiding it, why did it have to look like him?

Quote:

That was, in part, a result of the Reunion urge. They 'knew' they had to go somewhere; that compulsion came from the Jenova cells within them. Sephiroth's mind and illusory form directed that desire toward him. Killing several birds with one stone, as it were.

But the reason for the reunion was to get JENOVA back together, it had nothing really to do with Sephiroth. All 'he' needed was the Black Materia which only required Cloud and Co.

Quote:

The entire reason Sephiroth could use such phenomenal abilities - world-shaking magic, demonic transformations and whatnot - is because of the awesome power he amassed. That's the whole point. He became more than Human, at least in terms of his strength. To say that this proves he wasn't 'really' the villain is like saying that Kefka can't be the real enemy in FFVI - after all, no Human could ever sprout wings and singe cities with energy beams, now could he?

But the thing is, in VI there was noone else around who could have done it. Jenova had all these powers way before Sephiroth. Both Cloud and Sephiroth experience the same thing, but only one gains these powers, seems fairly odd.

I know I shouldn't say this to a Knight, but you may have forgotten given this arguement is fairly complex, you might wanna tag the FFVI stuff.
09-07-2003, 09:42 AM
Big D

Quote:

Well that's pretty debateable, but either way it was the Cetra in her that let her do magic. Sephiroth didn't have this.

Indeed. Sephiroth instead posessed a fragment of "Jenova's superior inteliigence, strength and magic", or whatever words are actually used in the game.

Quote:

But that's the thing, they weren't amplified, they were completely new. Everyone else with Jenova cells got a little stronger, no psychic abilities at all, let alone the stuff 'Sephiroth' could do.

Naturally. Don't you see? Sephiroth was trying to become a 'God', a far higher form of life. Preturnatural abilities are a part of that.

Quote:

So then what was the point of making Jenova look like Sephiroth. If all he was doing was guiding it, why did it have to look like him?

He wanted everyone to see that he was back, he was doing his stuff for his own benefit. Also, he had to convince the Clones to come to him with the Black Materia.

Quote:

But the reason for the reunion was to get JENOVA back together, it had nothing really to do with Sephiroth. All 'he' needed was the Black Materia which only required Cloud and Co.

The Reunion allowed Jenova's body to reform, yes, but it also provided a means of getting the Black Materia to Sephiroth, who was imprisoned in the Northern Crater. He couldn't go anywhere; someone had to get the Materia to him. That's where the Clones came in - he could sacrficice countless of them without any real risk. They could travel, investigate, solve problems, do menial tasks without question. Many of the clones stated their desire to "find it... and bring it to Sephiroth".

Quote:

But the thing is, in VI there was noone else around who could have done it. Jenova had all these powers way before Sephiroth. Both Cloud and Sephiroth experience the same thing, but only one gains these powers, seems fairly odd.

Sephiroth is a near-complete fusion of Jenova and Human cells, for moreso than Cloud or the other Clones. He's far stronger than any Human, even before his plunge into the Lifestream, an experience he was able to survive because of his superior endurance. Most Humans would go mad and die because of the sheer amount of raw energy and knowledge down there, but Sephiroth was strong enough to take that into himself and begin his deadly transformation. Cloud had only a little Jenova in him; his Lifestream experience nearly killed him.

Quote:

I know I shouldn't say this to a Knight, but you may have forgotten given this arguement is fairly complex, you might wanna tag the FFVI stuff.

I know this is complex, I'm just trying to keep it accessible. FFVI has its own complexity too, you know - in fact, you could argue that Kefka was merely (SPOILER)a mindless puppet under the control of the vengeful Goddesses who wanted their revenge on the world. In fact, it'd be pretty neat if someone were to start that debate in the FFVI forum... sure as heck won't be me though :p.
09-07-2003, 09:08 PM
PhoenixAsh

Quote:

Indeed. Sephiroth instead posessed a fragment of "Jenova's superior inteliigence, strength and magic", or whatever words are actually used in the game.

I know it's repeating myself but it annoys me when people ignore something I say in a debate and only address what they can answer so:
Only 'Sephiroth' posessed this, noone else took this from Jenova. Given he had just had his mind shattered, been severely wounded, and went through something that sent Cloud into a coma (type thing) after a week or two, you'd think that wouldn't leave him in a state to suddenly advance his mental capacity way beyond God like status.

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Naturally. Don't you see? Sephiroth was trying to become a 'God', a far higher form of life. Preturnatural abilities are a part of that.

Trying being the important word. Meteor hadn't hit, Sephiroth shouldn't have had nearly the power he had, assuming the pure souls of the Cetra and lifestream grant the same powers a Crisis From The Sky does.

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He wanted everyone to see that he was back, he was doing his stuff for his own benefit. Also, he had to convince the Clones to come to him with the Black Materia.

Why would he want people to know he was back? He couldn't even move, so he was in no place to go on an ego trip, not that he was particularly egotistical before.
The clone bit works either way so I won't answer that.

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The Reunion allowed Jenova's body to reform, yes, but it also provided a means of getting the Black Materia to Sephiroth, who was imprisoned in the Northern Crater. He couldn't go anywhere; someone had to get the Materia to him. That's where the Clones came in - he could sacrficice countless of them without any real risk. They could travel, investigate, solve problems, do menial tasks without question. Many of the clones stated their desire to "find it... and bring it to Sephiroth".

Didn't Hojo (or maybe Gast) predict the reunion? If so it would seem odd that they did so even though the entire purpose of it was something they had never heard of.

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Sephiroth is a near-complete fusion of Jenova and Human cells, for moreso than Cloud or the other Clones. He's far stronger than any Human, even before his plunge into the Lifestream, an experience he was able to survive because of his superior endurance. Most Humans would go mad and die because of the sheer amount of raw energy and knowledge down there, but Sephiroth was strong enough to take that into himself and begin his deadly transformation. Cloud had only a little Jenova in him; his Lifestream experience nearly killed him.

But as I said it's not an amplification, its brand new. He wasn't that strong before anyway, he could only do 3000 or so damage. His mind wasn't stronger than most people's, in fact by the time he entered the lifestream it was much, much weaker.

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I know this is complex, I'm just trying to keep it accessible. FFVI has its own complexity too, you know - in fact, you could argue that Kefka was merely (SPOILER)a mindless puppet under the control of the vengeful Goddesses who wanted their revenge on the world. In fact, it'd be pretty neat if someone were to start that debate in the FFVI forum... sure as heck won't be me though .

I wasn't questioning your debating ability, I was pointing out that you had FFVI spoilers in your last post untagged.
09-08-2003, 12:16 AM
Big D

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Only 'Sephiroth' posessed this, noone else took this from Jenova. Given he had just had his mind shattered, been severely wounded, and went through something that sent Cloud into a coma (type thing) after a week or two, you'd think that wouldn't leave him in a state to suddenly advance his mental capacity way beyond God like status.

That was a result of his trip through the Lifestream, as I said. It took years for those powers to accumulate.

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Trying being the important word. Meteor hadn't hit, Sephiroth shouldn't have had nearly the power he had, assuming the pure souls of the Cetra and lifestream grant the same powers a Crisis From The Sky does.

His transformation wasn't complete, but he was getting there. Once Meteor hit, he would've bonded completely with the Planet, finally becoming a 'true' God.

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Didn't Hojo (or maybe Gast) predict the reunion? If so it would seem odd that they did so even though the entire purpose of it was something they had never heard of.

Hojo knew that Jenova's dismembered body would find a way to reform itself. Jenova was incapacitated, so Sephiroth took charge and summoned the Clones. Manipulating htem, convincing them to find and bring the Black Materia was just another 'bonus' for him.

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But as I said it's not an amplification, its brand new. He wasn't that strong before anyway, he could only do 3000 or so damage. His mind wasn't stronger than most people's, in fact by the time he entered the lifestream it was much, much weaker.

Sephiroth was widely acknowledged as 'the greatest warrior of all time'; the fact that his 'damage numbers' are a little lower is merely an issue of game mechanics. In his time, he was the greatest fighter in the world. By the time he got to the Lifestream, he was angry and determined; it's not necessarily irrefutable that Jenova had taken over his mind. After all, he allegedly came to his conclusions about his 'rightful place' as a Cetra after reading the reports in the Shinra Mansion. His will, perhaps blended with Jenova's, was as strong as ever, if not stronger.
09-08-2003, 08:12 AM
PhoenixAsh

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That was a result of his trip through the Lifestream, as I said. It took years for those powers to accumulate.

You only assumed that, and if he just happened to gain the same powers Jenova already had it's a pretty huge coincidence.

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His transformation wasn't complete, but he was getting there. Once Meteor hit, he would've bonded completely with the Planet, finally becoming a 'true' God.

So he can get to near God status through going for a swim in it, but he decides he wants to destroy the planet just for that extra push?

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Hojo knew that Jenova's dismembered body would find a way to reform itself. Jenova was incapacitated, so Sephiroth took charge and summoned the Clones. Manipulating htem, convincing them to find and bring the Black Materia was just another 'bonus' for him.

Hojo knowing that would suggest he knew Jenova could survive while split up. There is no evidence Jenova is incapacitated. It's weakened, but only compared to it's former self, but it's still damn strong. The reunion would restore it fully though, and is far more beneficial to Jenova than Sephiroth, as I can't imagine Jenova letting a human rule anything once she was back to full strength.

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Sephiroth was widely acknowledged as 'the greatest warrior of all time'; the fact that his 'damage numbers' are a little lower is merely an issue of game mechanics. In his time, he was the greatest fighter in the world. By the time he got to the Lifestream, he was angry and determined; it's not necessarily irrefutable that Jenova had taken over his mind. After all, he allegedly came to his conclusions about his 'rightful place' as a Cetra after reading the reports in the Shinra Mansion. His will, perhaps blended with Jenova's, was as strong as ever, if not stronger.

Even after going through his time in the lifestream Cloud could still kick his ass. Sephiroth is by no means ridiculously strong, Jenova treatments of SOLDIERS just wasn't very well developed in his day, and he was strongest.
His will wasn't strong, he let Cloud beat him in the reactor. Cloud at the time was at a severe disadvantage.
09-08-2003, 09:21 AM
Big D

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You only assumed that, and if he just happened to gain the same powers Jenova already had it's a pretty huge coincidence.

Right... he's got Jenova's essence within him already, and then when he becomes stronger, he gains more of her powers - that's a 'coincidence'? Seems natural to me.

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So he can get to near God status through going for a swim in it, but he decides he wants to destroy the planet just for that extra push?

He was beginning to bond with the world ("I am becoming one with the Planet..."), and that's where those powers began to emerge. Summoning Meteor wouldn't destroy the Planet per se, rather it'd unleach a huge amount of Spirit Energy (from all the lives lost, and from the energy needed to heal the wound) and that's when he'd amass the remaining energy.

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Hojo knowing that would suggest he knew Jenova could survive while split up. There is no evidence Jenova is incapacitated. It's weakened, but only compared to it's former self, but it's still damn strong.

So Jenova allowed herself to get sealed in solid rock for millennia, then let Shinra scientists cut her up for experiments, then let Sephiroth cut off her freakin' head, then just sat around in a tank for five further years, all of her own free will? 'Cause she was bored of world domination or something?

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The reunion would restore it fully though, and is far more beneficial to Jenova than Sephiroth, as I can't imagine Jenova letting a human rule anything once she was back to full strength.

Sephiroth is the closest thing she has to family; a 'compatible' being who shares her goals and superiority complex, for whatever reason. She can't personally bond with the Planet; she needs Sephiroth for that, but she can join with him - as we see in Bizarro Sephiroth. Besides, if Sephiroth became 'god', he'd be far superior to Jenova.

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Even after going through his time in the lifestream Cloud could still kick his ass.

Still, it took quite a few goes - Bizarro Sephiroth, the burgeoning God, put up quite a fight; Safer Sephiroth even moreso. It was only then, when his power had been worn down, when he was reduced to his Human form - Cloud was finally able to beat him, by unleashing five years of pent-up anger and hatred. 'Sides, that's how it always goes in the Final Fantasies - the 'final boss' has to be capable of losing to the heroes (who spend their entire quest gaining strength and magic, by the way) or else the plot wouldn't really mean anything. Would you play a game with an unbeatable final opponent?

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Sephiroth is by no means ridiculously strong, Jenova treatments of SOLDIERS just wasn't very well developed in his day, and he was strongest.

He was the best, a veritable legend in his time. He was always distinct from other Humans, right from when he was a child. He was more than just another Jenova-injected SOLDIER member.

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His will wasn't strong, he let Cloud beat him in the reactor. Cloud at the time was at a severe disadvantage.

Well, Cloud had got a lucky shot in and attacked Sephiroth from behind while he was standing, gazing into Jenova's storage case. Sephiroth was wounded, so Cloud was able to overpower him and throw him into the Lifestream. Cloud had one 'power' that Sephiroth lacked - the righteous anger brought on by the destruction of Nibelheim. Sephiroth was oblivious to the concepts of home, family and love; he had no idea of the strength that they provide. Consequently, he completely underestimated Cloud's potential at that time.

You can't judge a character's strength and abilities solely from the games battel mechanics, like HP and MP. After all, it's easy to make Yuffie into the game's strongest character, with greater speed, strength and magical ability than anyone else, including Safer Sephiroth. This doesn't mean she's a higher form of life than him or anything.
09-08-2003, 07:54 PM
Nevermore

I inquire to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Sephiroth.
Sephiroth existed, as Cloud (Or rather Zack.) knew him in his younger days, his first in SOLDIER. This Sephy, who was induced by Jenova Cells, was badly hurt by Zack.
Hojo continues the experiment, attempting to make clones of Sephiroth using the cells from the organism found 2000 years ago. Cloud is one of them, but bears no mark as he's a failure.
Zack disappears ot gets shot or something, and Tifa's memories of Zack become Cloud's identity.
(She doesn't want to let go of her love for Zack. She's as messed up as everyone else.)

What you are chasing through the game is Jenova itself, never Sephiroth or any of it's clones. Cloud, being a clone, unknowingly follows her to attend the reunion and become one with the Life Stream, and then Sephiroth, the real Sephiroth, apparently still kickin'.

Or at least that's along the lines of what I understood.

As for the Weapons going after Jenova.
Jenova was sealed away by the Cetra 2000 years ago if I understand, therefore the Weapons were not needed.
Jenova had caused the first injury to the planet, which in turn gave birth to the Weapons as defence.
Now they rise again, against the threat of oncoming Meteor.
09-09-2003, 12:06 AM
Big D

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Originally posted by Nevermore
I inquire to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Sephiroth.
Sephiroth existed, as Cloud (Or rather Zack.) knew him in his younger days, his first in SOLDIER. This Sephy, who was induced by Jenova Cells, was badly hurt by Zack.
Hojo continues the experiment, attempting to make clones of Sephiroth using the cells from the organism found 2000 years ago. Cloud is one of them, but bears no mark as he's a failure.
Zack disappears ot gets shot or something, and Tifa's memories of Zack become Cloud's identity.
(She doesn't want to let go of her love for Zack. She's as messed up as everyone else.)

Cloud's "identity" was a result of the stories and experiences Zack told him about. Tifa never loved Zack, but she did care about Cloud, but was 'messed up' because his memories and hers had crucial differences.

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What you are chasing through the game is Jenova itself, never Sephiroth or any of it's clones.

That's the crux of what's being debated here. I'm contending that Sephiroth was a direct part of what was being chased; not his real body, of course, but rather a projection of his mind, which was helping to get Jenova's body to the Reunion. "What, you mean he's carryin' that big thing around?" as Barret says. It simply makes little to no sense for Jenova to go to such great lengths to pretend to be Sephiroth.

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Cloud, being a clone, unknowingly follows her to attend the reunion and become one with the Life Stream, and then Sephiroth, the real Sephiroth, apparently still kickin'.

That's right. He thought he was pursuing Sephiroth simply to exact justice, but rather the call of Jenova's instincts, and Sephiroth's influence (which are much the same thing), was compelling him to give pursuit as well.

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As for the Weapons going after Jenova.
Jenova was sealed away by the Cetra 2000 years ago if I understand, therefore the Weapons were not needed.
Jenova had caused the first injury to the planet, which in turn gave birth to the Weapons as defence.
Now they rise again, against the threat of oncoming Meteor.

Yep, that's what I figured. The use of the Black Materia triggered the reawakening of the Weapons, but since Sephiroth and Jenova were secured behind that energy barrier, they were inaccessible.

Jenova on her own couldn't conquer the world; she could create powerful illusions, use strong magic and spread mutating diseases, but ultimately she was defeated by the Cetra. Sephiroth, on the other hand, was able to become a tougher cookie, by reason of his unique mixture of Human and Jenova-sourced qualities. He learned from his 'mother', and also learned from the Lifestream, gaining the knowledge of the Cetra and their predecessors, whoever they were. He could do things Jenova couldn't; namely use the Black Materia and interact with the Lifestream.
09-09-2003, 12:38 AM
§håd0w

It's been a while since I posted in this thread, so...

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This Sephy, who was induced by Jenova Cells, was badly hurt by Zack.

Cloud was the one who threw him into the Lifestream, not Zack. The real Sephiroth is frozen in a Mako Crystal in the Northern Crater.

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Hojo continues the experiment, attempting to make clones of Sephiroth using the cells from the organism found 2000 years ago. Cloud is one of them, but bears no mark as he's a failure.

Hojo only conducted experiments on Cloud. Cloud really did exist, he wasn't an actual clone, although the records seem to say he is.

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Zack disappears ot gets shot or something, and Tifa's memories of Zack become Cloud's identity.
(She doesn't want to let go of her love for Zack. She's as messed up as everyone else.)

Aeris was the one whom loved Zack. Tifa only went along with Cloud's story. It would have been a little messed up if Tifa were to claim that Cloud's story (at Kalm) was a lie. That's why whenever Cloud paused, you saw a little "..." above Tifa.

And this may be WAY off topic, but at Wallmarket, when you can chose between 3 medicines, do any of them have an effect on the clone in Sector 5?
09-09-2003, 02:12 AM
Big D

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Hojo only conducted experiments on Cloud. Cloud really did exist, he wasn't an actual clone, although the records seem to say he is.

You're right. The use of the word "clone" in FFVII is somewhat confusing. Hojo tried to 'clone' Sephiroth; that is, he tried to reproduce the success which led to the world's greatest soldier. However, he wanted to achieve this quickly, without having to muck around with embryos. He wanted to make 'another Sephiroth' by injecting Jenova cells into adult Humans. As Cloud says, "Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't all that different from the procedure they use on new members of SOLDIER... they're actually injected with live Jenova cells" or words to that effect.

There were no 'actual clones' of Sephiroth; at least, no genetically identical people. Hojo simply wanted to perfect a way of transforming regular people into fighters of Sephiroth's caliber.

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And this may be WAY off topic, but at Wallmarket, when you can chose between 3 medicines, do any of them have an effect on the clone in Sector 5?

There's nothing you can to which has any effect on that particular clone, unfortunately. Those three medicines have but a single use: if you give them to the sick young lady in the toilet at the bar, she'll reward your generosity with a bottle of perfume. The particular fragrance depends upon which medicine you give her. Obtaining the 'Sexy Cologne' probably boosts Cloud's chances of scoring Don Corneo, but that's all;).
09-09-2003, 08:10 AM
PhoenixAsh

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Right... he's got Jenova's essence within him already, and then when he becomes stronger, he gains more of her powers - that's a 'coincidence'? Seems natural to me.

Which would make sense, if Sephiroth hadn't just had his mind destroyed, gone through five years of something that can almost wipe out someone's mind in under a week, if Jenova cells were even hinted to grant psychic abilities.....

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He was beginning to bond with the world ("I am becoming one with the Planet..."), and that's where those powers began to emerge. Summoning Meteor wouldn't destroy the Planet per se, rather it'd unleach a huge amount of Spirit Energy (from all the lives lost, and from the energy needed to heal the wound) and that's when he'd amass the remaining energy.

But it's a fair waste of time to be Godlike if theres noone to rule. Besides, becoming a God and world domination was never close to Sephiroth's ambitions, they were Jenova's.

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So Jenova allowed herself to get sealed in solid rock for millennia, then let Shinra scientists cut her up for experiments, then let Sephiroth cut off her freakin' head, then just sat around in a tank for five further years, all of her own free will? 'Cause she was bored of world domination or something?

Jenova was trapped, and it took an entire race to accomplish this. None of the chaos began until Jenova's escape. Which she was still highly capable of despite her space travel, dismemberment, beheading, and incarceration.

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Sephiroth is the closest thing she has to family; a 'compatible' being who shares her goals and superiority complex, for whatever reason. She can't personally bond with the Planet; she needs Sephiroth for that, but she can join with him - as we see in Bizarro Sephiroth. Besides, if Sephiroth became 'god', he'd be far superior to Jenova.

I highly doubt Jenova would care about a human. Sephiroth was her family, he just happened to be where the people who'd hurt her while she was trapped had put her cells, and he'd been 'benefitting' from her suffering for his entire life.
Jenova not being able to take power from the lifestream is pure assumption. Even if she couldn't and Sephiroth could that doesn't mean she wasn't just using his body to do it, with his mind long dead.

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Still, it took quite a few goes - Bizarro Sephiroth, the burgeoning God, put up quite a fight; Safer Sephiroth even moreso. It was only then, when his power had been worn down, when he was reduced to his Human form - Cloud was finally able to beat him, by unleashing five years of pent-up anger and hatred. 'Sides, that's how it always goes in the Final Fantasies - the 'final boss' has to be capable of losing to the heroes (who spend their entire quest gaining strength and magic, by the way) or else the plot wouldn't really mean anything. Would you play a game with an unbeatable final opponent?

It only takes quite a few goes once he's bonded to a fully (almost) regrouped Jenova. Once Jenova was gone, Sephiroth becomes a pushover.

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He was the best, a veritable legend in his time. He was always distinct from other Humans, right from when he was a child. He was more than just another Jenova-injected SOLDIER member.

He was the best fighter at the time, that doesn't make him the most able to use psychic ability. His strength only came from having more Jenova influence anyway, so it's hardly a reflection on him.

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Well, Cloud had got a lucky shot in and attacked Sephiroth from behind while he was standing, gazing into Jenova's storage case. Sephiroth was wounded, so Cloud was able to overpower him and throw him into the Lifestream. Cloud had one 'power' that Sephiroth lacked - the righteous anger brought on by the destruction of Nibelheim. Sephiroth was oblivious to the concepts of home, family and love; he had no idea of the strength that they provide. Consequently, he completely underestimated Cloud's potential at that time.

I actually don't remember Cloud landing a shot at the top of the stairs, but okay. Even so Sephiroth's wound hardly compares to the big sword that was sticking into Clouds chest when he beat him.
Also I think Sephiroth's little murderous, town burning rampage suggests he was just a little more emotional than you give him credit for.

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You can't judge a character's strength and abilities solely from the games battel mechanics, like HP and MP. After all, it's easy to make Yuffie into the game's strongest character, with greater speed, strength and magical ability than anyone else, including Safer Sephiroth. This doesn't mean she's a higher form of life than him or anything.

I'm not, I'm judging it on that, the scene in the reactor, the final one on one....
09-09-2003, 04:07 PM
Nevermore

So Aerith loved Zack. I don't understand. I never thought Cloud actually met Zack. From what Sephiroth tells you in the second disc, Tifa's memories of her and Zack fused with Clone Cloud's cells, giving him Zack's identity. Or was that not what it was about when Tifa meets Cloud on the train? Which to my understand, she was supposed to be waiting for Zack. Hell, I always though Cloud had nothing to do with the love triangle...
But that's not right, is it?
I'm too confused. Who the hell's the Sephiroth that burns down Nibelheim then? I thought that was the real one. But he wasn't used by Hojo, so what gave him the idea that he was one of those Mako mutants from the reactor? When he goes nuts?
09-09-2003, 11:36 PM
§håd0w

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I never thought Cloud actually met Zack.

Cloud knows Zack, but doesn't really know it off hand. When you reach Gongaga, and talk to his parents, he seems confused at first. But when you watch the flashback in the Shinra Mansion on disc 3, it shows more. It almost seems as if Cloud and Zack were best friends.

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Who the hell's the Sephiroth that burns down Nibelheim then?

That WAS the REAL Sephiroth. It was later after that, when Cloud runs to the Mako Reactor and finds Tifa, that Sephiroth was "killed." It doesn't clearly say Sehpiroth was killed, so that's sorta up to the player. Cloud was impaled, and lifted Seph up and threw him into the Lifestream. If you don't get it, don't worry. Not many people do.
09-10-2003, 08:11 AM
PhoenixAsh

Cloud and Zack were on the Nibelheim mission together, Cloud was one of the basic soldiers. After the fire they were both captured by Hojo and taken down to the basement of the mansion and experimented on Hojo. Eventually they escaped together, but Zack was shot along the way, while Cloud made it to safety, taking both Zack's uniform and Sword (I think). He was very messed up at the time, and his life had been a complete failure, he broke down and his memory blurred with Zack's.
Tifa didn't know Cloud was on the Nibelheim mission because he hid his face from her, but she knew what he described at Kalm wasn't the real version.
Zack was actually Aeris' ex-boyfriend but that has very little to do with the plot.

The real Sephiroth burned down Nibelheim, BECAUSE he found out about his past, although he didn't get the full story. He was experimented on at birth (possibly beforehand) using Jenova. He believed she was a Cetra and his mother, he never finds out who his real parents are (Hojo and Lucrecia).
Sephiroth is then thrown into the lifestream by Cloud, and is taken to the Northern Crater where he stayed for five years.
09-10-2003, 08:31 AM
Big D

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Which would make sense, if Sephiroth hadn't just had his mind destroyed, gone through five years of something that can almost wipe out someone's mind in under a week, if Jenova cells were even hinted to grant psychic abilities.....

Just where does it even suggest that his mind was dstroyed? He survived becasue he was stronger, becasue of his Jenova assistance. If his mind was 'destroyed', he'd have had a tough time using the Black Materia. Besides, Jenova cells can be seen to impart psychic abilities - the Clones can all hear Sephiroth's voice in their heads, thanks to the presence of Jenova cells within them. Jenova had psychic powers, her powers are present within the dismembered parts of her body, albeit to a lesser extent.

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But it's a fair waste of time to be Godlike if theres noone to rule. Besides, becoming a God and world domination was never close to Sephiroth's ambitions, they were Jenova's.

He never intended to kill everything, but didn't really care if large numbers perished. He wouldn't be the first FF villain to (SPOILER)be undeterred by the prospect of universal annihilation. Anyway, it's been oft-stated that Sephiroth was influenced by Jenova, her presence in his body and in his mind. Megalomania was a part of her; it was latent in him.

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Jenova was trapped, and it took an entire race to accomplish this. None of the chaos began until Jenova's escape. Which she was still highly capable of despite her space travel, dismemberment, beheading, and incarceration.

Well, her body was able to blob its way out of a metal tank. The presence of Sephiroth's sword - evidently the real thing - in Shinra's office suggests his presence as well.

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Jenova not being able to take power from the lifestream is pure assumption. Even if she couldn't and Sephiroth could that doesn't mean she wasn't just using his body to do it, with his mind long dead.

Talk about assumptions...:p

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It only takes quite a few goes once he's bonded to a fully (almost) regrouped Jenova. Once Jenova was gone, Sephiroth becomes a pushover.

Remember SYNTHESIS? That was Jenova on her own, with no Human aspect at all. Piece of cake. Sephiroth, on the other hand, with his neo-Godlike and Jenova powers well on their way, is that much harder to beat. Sure, Jenova's a major part of Bizarro Sephiroth - you can see her head in it, after all - but he's still harder to beat.

As you say, of course, once he's stripped of all his enhancements and special powers, he's just another Human swordsman. That makes perfect sense.

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His strength only came from having more Jenova influence anyway, so it's hardly a reflection on him.

Well, Jenova's cels were a part of him; if someone uses steroids, does that mean that they can't really lift heavy weights? Do they have the ability to perform physcial feats, or is it the chemicals in their blood and muscles that have this power?

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I actually don't remember Cloud landing a shot at the top of the stairs, but okay. Even so Sephiroth's wound hardly compares to the big sword that was sticking into Clouds chest when he beat him.

Cloud takes a good swing at him and wounds him, it's easy to see. When Cloud confronts him on the bridge, Sephiroth is facing away, limping badly from his wound and carrying his mother's head in one hand. He's kinda preoccupied. He stabbed Cloud in the shoulder without looking, then Cloud overpowered him. Simple as that. It's a symbolic scene, about the strength of love and the Human spirit to overcome adversity.
If Sephiroth was really as weak as you calim, he'd have died in the war or been an anonymous nobody instead of becoming a living legend.
09-10-2003, 08:54 PM
PhoenixAsh

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Just where does it even suggest that his mind was dstroyed? He survived becasue he was stronger, becasue of his Jenova assistance. If his mind was 'destroyed', he'd have had a tough time using the Black Materia. Besides, Jenova cells can be seen to impart psychic abilities - the Clones can all hear Sephiroth's voice in their heads, thanks to the presence of Jenova cells within them. Jenova had psychic powers, her powers are present within the dismembered parts of her body, albeit to a lesser extent.

Well I would take his turn from efficient killer to a pyromaniac who thinks that a disfigured body is his mother which he proceeds to behead indicates a slight decline in his mental state.
Is 'Sephiroth's' ability to communicate worldwide to Jenova cells really going to be your example of other people's psychic abilities?

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He never intended to kill everything, but didn't really care if large numbers perished. He wouldn't be the first FF villain to (SPOILER)be undeterred by the prospect of universal annihilation. Anyway, it's been oft-stated that Sephiroth was influenced by Jenova, her presence in his body and in his mind. Megalomania was a part of her; it was latent in him.

But why would he be involved at all? Without Jenova he had less than human strength, why give him the credit for taking control over their shared body? Plus as I've said, why would Sephiroth choose world domination even if he was in charge?
Why would Jenova help him?

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Well, her body was able to blob its way out of a metal tank. The presence of Sephiroth's sword - evidently the real thing - in Shinra's office suggests his presence as well.

It suggests someone powerful. Given the sword pops up in several other places, and we actually KNOW Sephiroth was on another continent at the time, that's a fairly odd statement D.
If by blob it's way out of a metal tank you mean smash it open, kill everyone it came across, assume another form, and leave giant boss monsters in it's wake by remove small body parts, then yes she did.

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Talk about assumptions...

I never said that was my belief, I was merely suggesting that you're arguement didn't add to the Sephiroth is in charge theory.

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Remember SYNTHESIS? That was Jenova on her own, with no Human aspect at all. Piece of cake. Sephiroth, on the other hand, with his neo-Godlike and Jenova powers well on their way, is that much harder to beat. Sure, Jenova's a major part of Bizarro Sephiroth - you can see her head in it, after all - but he's still harder to beat.

SYNTHESIS wasn't Jenova on her own, it was most of Jenova, and you don't even kill it, it just buys time. Her addition to Sephiroth actually means she is recovering a large amount of her own cells that were taken from her.

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Well, Jenova's cels were a part of him; if someone uses steroids, does that mean that they can't really lift heavy weights? Do they have the ability to perform physcial feats, or is it the chemicals in their blood and muscles that have this power?

No in a similar way that I wouldn't assume that someone on steroids had immense mental capacity and the power to control their mind far beyond human level and onto God-like status.

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Cloud takes a good swing at him and wounds him, it's easy to see. When Cloud confronts him on the bridge, Sephiroth is facing away, limping badly from his wound and carrying his mother's head in one hand. He's kinda preoccupied. He stabbed Cloud in the shoulder without looking, then Cloud overpowered him. Simple as that. It's a symbolic scene, about the strength of love and the Human spirit to overcome adversity.

I didn't say Sephiroth was weak, I said he wasn't that strong. He was the best SOLDIER, but SOLDIER members were pretty weak back then.
As for Cloud overpowering him, it shows Sephiroth is out of it and weakened at the time, not prepared to cope with the Lifestream.
09-11-2003, 06:12 AM
Big D

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Is 'Sephiroth's' ability to communicate worldwide to Jenova cells really going to be your example of other people's psychic abilities?

Quotes, from the game:

"Sephiroth learned to diffuse his will through the Lifestream."

"I became a traveller of the Lifestream... I gained the knowledge of the Ancients, and those before them..."

THAT'S a partial basis of the new psychic abilities. Lifestream=worldwide 'network' of life energy.

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But why would he be involved at all? Without Jenova he had less than human strength, why give him the credit for taking control over their shared body? Plus as I've said, why would Sephiroth choose world domination even if he was in charge?
Why would Jenova help him?

Sephiroth - at the Temple, I believe - stated his intention to become one with the Planet, and with his mother. Jenova, was blitzed, out of commission, more of a passive player than an active part of events. That's why Sephiroth was doing the conscious stuff. He'd become a 'God', and join with Jenova. Another part of the 'greater life'.

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It suggests someone powerful. Given the sword pops up in several other places, and we actually KNOW Sephiroth was on another continent at the time, that's a fairly odd statement D.

I'm basing it on the fact that the sword is lying there, apparently a physical presence, rather than a manifestation. It's unclear and inconclusive, but it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for Jenova to make a fake Masamune blades and drop it in the President's office. There's no solid logical reasoning which can explain such an elaborate hoax - pretending to be Sephiroth yet still keeping a low profile, deluding people, talking about Sephiroth as being the great one, acting like he's the center of everything with only a few references to Jenova herself... unless, of course, those are really Sephiroth's words we're hearing.

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If by blob it's way out of a metal tank you mean smash it open, kill everyone it came across, assume another form, and leave giant boss monsters in it's wake by remove small body parts, then yes she did.

And it's pure coincidence that this happens a matter of hours or days after Cloud begins hearing Sephiroth's voice in his head? I'm contending that Sephiroth's will was an important part of the escape of Jenova's body. Ther body began moving at the same time that all the Clones, and even a few SOLDIER members started to hear the call of Sephiroth.

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Well, Jenova's cels were a part of him; if someone uses steroids, does that mean that they can't really lift heavy weights? Do they have the ability to perform physcial feats, or is it the chemicals in their blood and muscles that have this power?

No in a similar way that I wouldn't assume that someone on steroids had immense mental capacity and the power to control their mind far beyond human level and onto God-like status.

You've mised the point completely. Jenova has the ability to cast powerful magic, create strong illusions and use psychic manipulation. Hence my belief that those powers could be passed on, in some small measure, to Sephiroth. Just in case you've forgotten, Sephiroth didn't become a God-like being just because of the Jenova cells within him; it was a part of his process of transformation which involved a number of factors, including the Lifestream. My 'steroid' comparison was just a use of a real-life example.

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I never said that was my belief, I was merely suggesting that you're arguement didn't add to the Sephiroth is in charge theory.

Uh... as I recall, 'Jenova is the real opponent you chase around the world, who kills Aeris and uses the Black Materia' is the "theory" that's in contention. Besides, whoever said Sephiroth was 'in control'? He's obviously submissive to Jenova's wishes, all I'm saying was that he was consciously responsible for his choices, and that he is 'the Sephiroth' whose image and words appear throughout the game up 'till the Northern Crater.

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I didn't say Sephiroth was weak, I said he wasn't that strong. He was the best SOLDIER, but SOLDIER members were pretty weak back then.

More assumption; nothing ever says that the SOLDIER members of five years before were inferior. That'd suggest that Human evolution sped up a heck of a lot, since Barret, Tifa, Yuffie, Cid etc are good rivals for contemporary SOLDIER members. If 'old' SOLDIER members were as puny as you imply, then the people of the world in general must've been really frail about the time of the Wutai war. There's no evidence whatsoever for it.
It's more or less a fact that SOLDIERs are stronger than most other fighters. The procedure for producing SOLDIRE members - Jenova treatment and Mako exposure - didn't change significantly, so far as we can tell.

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As for Cloud overpowering him, it shows Sephiroth is out of it and weakened at the time, not prepared to cope with the Lifestream.

He was physically weakened by a wound, and mentally unfocussed because of his feelings of anger and betrayal. Doesn't mean he was mentally weakened; he just had other stuff on his mind than possible defeat at the hands of a 'mere' Human grunt.
09-11-2003, 08:22 AM
PhoenixAsh

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Quotes, from the game:

"Sephiroth learned to diffuse his will through the Lifestream."

"I became a traveller of the Lifestream... I gained the knowledge of the Ancients, and those before them..."

THAT'S a partial basis of the new psychic abilities. Lifestream=worldwide 'network' of life energy.

He was connected to dead people by the lifestream, not people containing Jenova cells, as that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

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Sephiroth - at the Temple, I believe - stated his intention to become one with the Planet, and with his mother. Jenova, was blitzed, out of commission, more of a passive player than an active part of events. That's why Sephiroth was doing the conscious stuff. He'd become a 'God', and join with Jenova. Another part of the 'greater life'.

But WHY would he want to? Because it was Jenova's wish? Which let's face it would be a better motive for Jenova than him.
Jenova wasn't out of commission, you fight four versions of her, see a trail of destruction left by someone who just happened to have started at her tank, see four giant Weapons designed to fight her released before you even see Sephiroth move.

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I'm basing it on the fact that the sword is lying there, apparently a physical presence, rather than a manifestation. It's unclear and inconclusive, but it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for Jenova to make a fake Masamune blades and drop it in the President's office. There's no solid logical reasoning which can explain such an elaborate hoax - pretending to be Sephiroth yet still keeping a low profile, deluding people, talking about Sephiroth as being the great one, acting like he's the center of everything with only a few references to Jenova herself... unless, of course, those are really Sephiroth's words we're hearing.

Sephiroth DID NOT put that sword there, it's presence suggests more that someone is framing Sephiroth than Sephiroth being in control.
Jenova was known for immitating others, and when discovered was attacked by both the Cetra and the planet before being caged and chopped up for 2000 years. Something tells me that MAYBE she wouldn't want to annouce she was back in action. Sephiroth's image was not only the most accessible to her, it provided the best cover for a killing spree, and drew Cloud to the Northern Crater with the Black Materia.

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And it's pure coincidence that this happens a matter of hours or days after Cloud begins hearing Sephiroth's voice in his head? I'm contending that Sephiroth's will was an important part of the escape of Jenova's body. Ther body began moving at the same time that all the Clones, and even a few SOLDIER members started to hear the call of Sephiroth.

Actually I have another theory on that that explains a lot of unanswered questions in the game, but never mind that. The voice could just as easily be Jenovas.
The body would obviously move at the same time as the clones, the reunion would be pointless without it.

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You've mised the point completely. Jenova has the ability to cast powerful magic, create strong illusions and use psychic manipulation. Hence my belief that those powers could be passed on, in some small measure, to Sephiroth. Just in case you've forgotten, Sephiroth didn't become a God-like being just because of the Jenova cells within him; it was a part of his process of transformation which involved a number of factors, including the Lifestream. My 'steroid' comparison was just a use of a real-life example.

As I've said repeatedly, noone else gains anything like those powers. You always said Sephiroth got them from the Lifestream (which I disagree with anytway as Cloud didn't), so you lost me with the beginning of that.
Sephiroth's God-like status was a shadow of Jenova's original power, the bonding with the planet would be just as beneficial to them both, but it's more Jenova's style than Sephiroth's.

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Uh... as I recall, 'Jenova is the real opponent you chase around the world, who kills Aeris and uses the Black Materia' is the "theory" that's in contention. Besides, whoever said Sephiroth was 'in control'? He's obviously submissive to Jenova's wishes, all I'm saying was that he was consciously responsible for his choices, and that he is 'the Sephiroth' whose image and words appear throughout the game up 'till the Northern Crater.

The thing you chase is definately not Sephiroth, and it is almost certainly Jenova (physically at least). I therefore don't acknowledge Sephiroth being the main bad guy as the standard to which other versions are merely theories.

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More assumption; nothing ever says that the SOLDIER members of five years before were inferior. That'd suggest that Human evolution sped up a heck of a lot, since Barret, Tifa, Yuffie, Cid etc are good rivals for contemporary SOLDIER members. If 'old' SOLDIER members were as puny as you imply, then the people of the world in general must've been really frail about the time of the Wutai war. There's no evidence whatsoever for it.

SOLDIER members aren't all that strong in present day, and human experimentation took giant leaps five years before after the fire. If Cloud's story of Kalm is directly taken, and his fighting ability is a mirror of Zack's then they definately weren't all that strong.

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He was physically weakened by a wound, and mentally unfocussed because of his feelings of anger and betrayal. Doesn't mean he was mentally weakened; he just had other stuff on his mind than possible defeat at the hands of a 'mere' Human grunt.

He just burned down a town, took a monster out of it's cage he thought was his mother, beheaded it, then got thrown into something that took Cloud's ability to walk and talk in a matter of days for five years. Just what do you class as mental weakening?
09-11-2003, 09:40 AM
Big D

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Sephiroth's God-like status was a shadow of Jenova's original power

Oh? She survived a heck of a fall, cast some illusions, made some peope sick and insane, then got stuck in solid rock. Mmmhmmm.

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SOLDIER members aren't all that strong in present day, and human experimentation took giant leaps five years before after the fire. If Cloud's story of Kalm is directly taken, and his fighting ability is a mirror of Zack's then they definately weren't all that strong.

Compare Sephiroth to Cloud in that sequence. 'Sides, those could even have been Cloud's real stats for all we know. He's one mess-up kid, after all.

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noone else gains anything like those powers. You always said Sephiroth got them from the Lifestream (which I disagree with anytway as Cloud didn't)

Of course. cloud was little more than a normal Human, so he was incapable of withstanding that energy. Sephiroth, on the other hand, has all those superior Jenova powers, so he was able to survive. The fact that he lasted all those years in the Lifestream without dying are testament to that.

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He just burned down a town, took a monster out of it's cage he thought was his mother, beheaded it, then got thrown into something that took Cloud's ability to walk and talk in a matter of days for five years. Just what do you class as mental weakening?

'Totally cheesed off' doesn't equate to 'weak'. :p

Final Fantasies are full of Human adversaries who gain extraordinary powers and abilities through supernatural means. Why is it so hard to believe Sephiroth could've been the same?
Spoilers for lots of FFsZeromus was the spirit of a dead Lunarian; but could transform into a powerful beast; X-Death was a tree, for cryin' out loud, yet the power of Enuo and the Void infused him. Kefka unleashed and absorbed the strength of the Goddesses and was able to transform, blow stuff up etc. Ultimecia compressed time, absorbed energy and also transformed; Kuja merely had to get really, REALLY annoyed and he was able to blitz AN ENTIRE WORLD.
See? Sephiroth is already stronger than other Humans; it's easily conceivable that he could, as the previous FF nemesi did, gain new powers from a pre-existing/latent source; namely, Jenova's cells and the Lifestream, and use it in new and exciting ways.

This debate is beginning to bore me. I'm not fussed about what others believe; personal opinion and all that. I have a clear and resolvable view of FFVII, one which answers all the questions for me, and I'm happy with it.
09-11-2003, 04:42 PM
Nevermore

People get that uptight by a debate about a videogame? It's not like Jenova really exists or something...
09-11-2003, 10:00 PM
§håd0w

Just so you know (in general)... I posted *SPOILER* in the thread title, so there's no need for the tags.
09-11-2003, 11:57 PM
Big D

Well, that's all well and good for FFVII spoilers, but major revelations about other FFs need to be tagged.
I, too, dislike debates that turn nasty. Trying to keep this place civil is a major part of being a Knight.

There's one really fundamental flaw in PhoenixAsh's argument, though: it's assuming that Jenova is just as pwoerful as she always was, and didn't lose anything as a result of the many defeats and setbacks she suffered. This is patently false.
After she was originally defeated, the Weapons lay dormant - she wasn't a threat any longer. However, once Gast excavated her, and even when she busted out of Shinra, the Weapons still don't give a monkey's. Why? Because she's still a weakened shadow of her former self. It's not until the Reunion takes place and the Black Materia is used that the Weapons come to life. They waited 'till there was a real threat to the Planet... obviously, there wasn't a direct threat before then. If Jenova was as strong as ever, and hadn't lost anything, then Weapon would've got its groove on just as soon as Gast went diggin' in the dirt.;)
09-12-2003, 02:30 AM
Raistlin

Hmm...ok, I'm late again, as usual. I'm not even going to bother reading through all that crap again...as usual. :D

Anyways, some things I noticed:

D, you seem to think Sephiroth acted for his own benefit throughout most, if not all, the game. This I disagree with. I do not think Sephiroth was a physical slave of Jenova, though maybe a mental. When Sephiroth broke down at Nibelheim, he went insane. This is understood, correct? Then, Sephiroth went to the Reactor to free his "mother." He had to free "mother" and kill the "traitors to the Cetra." Where did he all of the sudden get these ideas from? Jenova.
Even though she was not a physical presence throughout the game except for a few boss battles, I believe she indeed was the "behind the scenes" bad guy. When Sephiroth went insane, Jenova felt that weakness. Though confined, she could still communicate with those who had Jenova cells, moreso with Sephiroth(and Cloud...the more successful clones). She fed him those lies about the "traitors to the Cetra" and her being his "mother," and may have even used some mind-control powers, though that is pure speculation. To sum it up, I believe Jenova, in Sephiroth's weakened mental state, perverted and twisted the truth until it seemed to him that freeing Jenova and destroying Nibelheim was the...right thing to do.

For the rest of the game, I'm open to debate about(especially the famous Sephy clone, Jenova, or manifestation debate), but the above is what I feel the most strongly.

-Raistlin

EDIT:

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There's one really fundamental flaw in PhoenixAsh's argument, though: it's assuming that Jenova is just as pwoerful as she always was, and didn't lose anything as a result of the many defeats and setbacks she suffered. This is patently false.

However, it's a moot point. Yes, she may very well have been weaker, but unless we can calculate exactly how much and how that would effect what she did, then that argument has no bearing.

EDIT2:

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They waited 'till there was a real threat to the Planet... obviously, there wasn't a direct threat before then. If Jenova was as strong as ever, and hadn't lost anything, then Weapon would've got its groove on just as soon as Gast went diggin' in the dirt.

However, Jenova could also have just as likely waited for the right time to mount her attack: when Sephiroth got the Black Materia and summoned Meteor. The Weapons didn't react to Jenova because Jenova wasn't doing anything. There's no absolute proof that Jenova was weaker or not.
09-12-2003, 06:34 AM
Big D

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D, you seem to think Sephiroth acted for his own benefit throughout most, if not all, the game. This I disagree with. I do not think Sephiroth was a physical slave of Jenova, though maybe a mental. When Sephiroth broke down at Nibelheim, he went insane. This is understood, correct? Then, Sephiroth went to the Reactor to free his "mother." He had to free "mother" and kill the "traitors to the Cetra." Where did he all of the sudden get these ideas from? Jenova.

I agree with you totally. Jenova was able to deceive the Cetra, a race with pretty strong mental abilities; I agree that her influence was behind a lot of Sephiroth's actions.
09-12-2003, 07:47 AM
PhoenixAsh

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Totally cheesed off' doesn't equate to 'weak'.

Decapitating a monster that you think is your own mother because you want to be reunited with her doesn't equate to totally cheesed off either.

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Oh? She survived a heck of a fall, cast some illusions, made some peope sick and insane, then got stuck in solid rock. Mmmhmmm.

If that's how you want to phrase travelling through space, crashing into a planet leaving a whole big enough to risk it's destruction, taking on an entire race and giant monsters that take city sized cannons to kill and surviving, then surviving two thousand years and still be able to jump right back into travelling across the globe and fighting rebel groups single handedly (literally).

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Of course. cloud was little more than a normal Human, so he was incapable of withstanding that energy. Sephiroth, on the other hand, has all those superior Jenova powers, so he was able to survive. The fact that he lasted all those years in the Lifestream without dying are testament to that.

Cloud was THE successful clone, he was just as advanced as Sephiroth. The lifestream doesn't kill people anyway (as far as I know), it just destroys their minds. It doesn't make them stronger, which you suggest.

Yamenko answered most other things I think.
09-12-2003, 08:23 AM
Big D

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If that's how you want to phrase travelling through space, crashing into a planet leaving a whole big enough to risk it's destruction, taking on an entire race and giant monsters that take city sized cannons to kill and surviving, then surviving two thousand years and still be able to jump right back into travelling across the globe and fighting rebel groups single handedly (literally).

Well, evidence suggests that Jenova fell to land encased in an asteroid or comet. Evidence, you ask?
If there wasn't something 'shielding' her, she'd have been annihilated by either (a) the heat or (b) the sheer force of the impact. Jenova, as we know, is vulnerable to weapons and magic, neither of which compare to meteoric forces. Evidently, it wasn't just her that made the crater, although that was how she made her arrival. Anyway.
She didn't 'take on' the Cetra, at least not at first. She deceived them, evidence of her extraordinary powers of illusion; but when they actually fought back, she lost. She never 'took on' the Weapons, either. By the time they were created, she was already sealed away. As for fighting the rebel groups - that was three people, hardly an incomparable force.

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Cloud was THE successful clone, he was just as advanced as Sephiroth.

Nonsense. Cloud was physically and mentally weaker; he had no will of his own until he learned to break free. He was the only 'clone' that made it all the way to the Reunion, after Sephiroth killed the others; that's where his success ended. Oh, he also had at least a little sanity left, which distinguished hhim from the other Clones.

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The lifestream doesn't kill people anyway (as far as I know), it just destroys their minds. It doesn't make them stronger, which you suggest.

Yeah, I know it destroys their minds. However, in the game Sephiroth statess that he learned from the raw knowledge floating around in the Lifestream; he was able to (at least partially) resist the inundation of knowledge, THAT'S what's usually so dangerous about it. Knew knowledge made him stronger; also, SOLDIER members are showered with Mako energy in order to make them stronger; this actually induces physical transformations, too - remember Cloud's shiny blue eyes?

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Yamenko answered most other things I think.

Has someone failed to notice the Great Nameswapping Saga? :p
09-12-2003, 01:54 PM
Raistlin

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Well, evidence suggests that Jenova fell to land encased in an asteroid or comet. Evidence, you ask?
If there wasn't something 'shielding' her, she'd have been annihilated by either (a) the heat or (b) the sheer force of the impact. Jenova, as we know, is vulnerable to weapons and magic, neither of which compare to meteoric forces. Evidently, it wasn't just her that made the crater, although that was how she made her arrival.

There is NO proof, that is pure speculation. I believe Jenova was/is far more powerful than you think.

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She didn't 'take on' the Cetra, at least not at first. She deceived them, evidence of her extraordinary powers of illusion; but when they actually fought back, she lost.

If by "losing" you mean single-handedly killing off 99.999% percent of an entire RACE of people before finally being stopped and encased in rock far below the surface so she couldn't possible escape...if that's outright "losing" then yes, I agree.

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Nonsense. Cloud was physically and mentally weaker; he had no will of his own until he learned to break free. He was the only 'clone' that made it all the way to the Reunion, after Sephiroth killed the others; that's where his success ended. Oh, he also had at least a little sanity left, which distinguished hhim from the other Clones.

Cloud was mentally weaker, eh? Then why did he not break down under Jenova's influence like Sephiroth did?

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Yeah, I know it destroys their minds. However, in the game Sephiroth statess that he learned from the raw knowledge floating around in the Lifestream; he was able to (at least partially) resist the inundation of knowledge, THAT'S what's usually so dangerous about it.

Yes, and how come Sephiroth, unlike the many before him, was able to block himself off from being mako poisoned? Jenova.

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Has someone failed to notice the Great Nameswapping Saga?

Hehe, I guess so. That's why I included "-Raistlin" at the end of my last post. :D

-Raistlin
09-12-2003, 09:46 PM
PhoenixAsh

Oh I knew it wasn't Yamenko, but am I Hell gonna bother to memorise the name changes, if you wanna be referred to by your real SN use your own SN.

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She didn't 'take on' the Cetra, at least not at first. She deceived them, evidence of her extraordinary powers of illusion; but when they actually fought back, she lost. She never 'took on' the Weapons, either. By the time they were created, she was already sealed away. As for fighting the rebel groups - that was three people, hardly an incomparable force.

She decieved them, killed most of them, and even when they went into full force the planet still saw fit to build at least five monsters, all of which capable of wiping out cities.
Three people which she fought using only her hand, AFTER it was removed. Plus countless guards and soldiers.

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Nonsense. Cloud was physically and mentally weaker; he had no will of his own until he learned to break free. He was the only 'clone' that made it all the way to the Reunion, after Sephiroth killed the others; that's where his success ended. Oh, he also had at least a little sanity left, which distinguished hhim from the other Clones.

Sit Cloud and Seph down for a sanity test, my moneys on Cloud. Let them fight hand to hand, my moneys still on Cloud. He justified both of these things in Nibelheim, and he is unbelievably stronger in present day.

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Yeah, I know it destroys their minds. However, in the game Sephiroth statess that he learned from the raw knowledge floating around in the Lifestream; he was able to (at least partially) resist the inundation of knowledge, THAT'S what's usually so dangerous about it. Knew knowledge made him stronger; also, SOLDIER members are showered with Mako energy in order to make them stronger; this actually induces physical transformations, too - remember Cloud's shiny blue eyes?

But how can you justify Sephiroth being mentally strong? At what point in the game does he show any sign of having any kind of mental strength? That arguement is assumption, based on assumption.
Shiny eyes hardly compare to sprouting wings and growing about thirty feet taller.
09-13-2003, 12:14 AM
Big D

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There is NO proof, that is pure speculation. I believe Jenova was/is far more powerful than you think.

Sure, but if she could survive that kind of punishment, then no amount of swords and fists would pose any kind of risk.

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Cloud was mentally weaker, eh? Then why did he not break down under Jenova's influence like Sephiroth did?

He DID break down; he was directly manipulated many times.

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Yes, and how come Sephiroth, unlike the many before him, was able to block himself off from being mako poisoned? Jenova.

That's exactly what I was arguing. Jenova's superhuman strength and resilience reinforced him.

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Sit Cloud and Seph down for a sanity test, my moneys on Cloud. Let them fight hand to hand, my moneys still on Cloud. He justified both of these things in Nibelheim, and he is unbelievably stronger in present day.

There's a reason Sephiroth was acknowledged as the world's greatest soldier while Cloud failed to gain entry into SOLDIER.
09-13-2003, 08:08 AM
PhoenixAsh

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Sure, but if she could survive that kind of punishment, then no amount of swords and fists would pose any kind of risk.

You keep telling us she's weakened, which is true. Besides she never fully gets back to her true strength. The closest she gets she still has a human part attached, and humans are vulnerable to that sort of attack.

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He DID break down; he was directly manipulated many times.

So if you accept Jenova could control him, why do you argue that she would relinquish this control over the matter of who gets to become a God and fulfill her ambition to take over the planet and (probably) get revenge on humanity.

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That's exactly what I was arguing. Jenova's superhuman strength and resilience reinforced him.

Which it didn't do for Cloud...

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There's a reason Sephiroth was acknowledged as the world's greatest soldier while Cloud failed to gain entry into SOLDIER.

There is. Jenova. Which Cloud got AFTER he applied for SOLDIER, and AFTER Sephiroth was credited with anything other than being dead.
09-13-2003, 11:40 PM
Big D

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You keep telling us she's weakened, which is true. Besides she never fully gets back to her true strength. The closest she gets she still has a human part attached, and humans are vulnerable to that sort of attack.

Jenova BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH have no Human components, yet are vulnerable; however, this is a random tangent and not of strict relevance to that elusive gem known as 'the point'.

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So if you accept Jenova could control him, why do you argue that she would relinquish this control over the matter of who gets to become a God and fulfill her ambition to take over the planet and (probably) get revenge on humanity.

I don't think she had much of a choice. He was capable of making that transformation; she was going to bond with him and become a part of his 'godliness' once it was all done.

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That's exactly what I was arguing. Jenova's superhuman strength and resilience reinforced him.

Which it didn't do for Cloud...

Of course. Sephiroth has MORE JENOVA IN HIM, he's a stronger being. If Cloud and Sephiroth were equals, Sephiroth would have died, swiftly. You want more proof that the Lifestream can provide power and knowledge? The entire purpose of summoning the meteor was to injure the Planet, unleashing a huge amount of Mako energy that Sephiroth would absorb to complete his transformation. That's stated clearly. Also, when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells, he naturally went crazy and wanted to use the Mako Cannon to deliver a surge of Mako to the North Cave. "My son is depending on the energy... I'm just giving him a helping hand".

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There's a reason Sephiroth was acknowledged as the world's greatest soldier while Cloud failed to gain entry into SOLDIER.

There is. Jenova. Which Cloud got AFTER he applied for SOLDIER, and AFTER Sephiroth was credited with anything other than being dead.

Isn't that what I was saying all along? Sephiroth's "Jenova component" made him stronger than any Human. After the Nibelheim disaster, Cloud got used for the experiment, in Hojo's attempt to 'recreate' Sephiroth. Cloud, too, became stronger; but not quite so strong as Sephiroth.

Think about THIS for a second... the individual pieces of Jenova that you fight throughout the game - BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH - they're quite strong, but not indestructible. Together, they make up almost the entirety of Jenova's body, save for the cells in the Clones, in Sephiroth and others extracted by Shinra. However, a normal Human who's injected himself with Jenova's cells and has been exposed to Mako radiation can become far stronger than these large parts of her body. I'm talking about Hojo. He OD'd on Jenova cells; I'm assuming he injected more than were used in regular SOLDIRERs or Clones - and also had significant Mako exposure. As a result, he was able to transform himself - something you, PhoenixAsh, claimed is impossible for any except Jenova herself. I think this reinforces my belief that a combination of Human life, Jenova cells and Mako energy has the potential to become more powerful than Jenova in her weakened state.
09-14-2003, 03:00 AM
Raistlin

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Sure, but if she could survive that kind of punishment, then no amount of swords and fists would pose any kind of risk.

Well what if that's why "swords and fists" posed a risk? The crash into the planet damaged her significantly, so she had to mainly rely on wit, cunning, and deceit. Hence the need for Sephiroth.

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He DID break down; he was directly manipulated many times.

He was being directly manipulated for any significant period of time TWICE, and that only for...a couple minutes? Sephiroth allowed himself to be deceived for the whole damn game.

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There's a reason Sephiroth was acknowledged as the world's greatest soldier while Cloud failed to gain entry into SOLDIER.

Yes, physical ability, intelligence, agility, etc etc etc. Mental strength, i.e. "hold on sanity/reality" is not dependent on physical characteristics, or many mental ones, such as intelligence. Sephiroth didn't exactly have a "nice" childhood with Hojo. That, combined with the shock of him thinking he was a freak of nature, severed his tenuous hold on sanity. End speculation, fact: Sephiroth went insane. Cloud didn't.

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I don't think she had much of a choice. He was capable of making that transformation; she was going to bond with him and become a part of his 'godliness' once it was all done.

That's an interesting theory, and, as are most theories of that nature, cannot be proven or disproven. However, I do have one interesting theory of my own: that Jenova didn't give a damn about the Lifestream and just wanted to destroy the world, to revenge herself on the Planet and those living on it. She wanted, expected Meteor to destory the Planet utterly.

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Of course. Sephiroth has MORE JENOVA IN HIM, he's a stronger being.

I don't think Sephiroth has "more" Jenova in him. However, I do think the Jenova cells in Sephiroth bonded in a unique way, and those in Cloud didn't. Also, Jenova had a special interest in Sephiroth, to which she didn't have for Cloud at the time.

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I think this reinforces my belief that a combination of Human life, Jenova cells and Mako energy has the potential to become more powerful than Jenova in her weakened state.

That's useless to speculate since it cannot be proven, and doesn't really have much fact basis.
I think you're doing one thing, a flaw in a lot of people who debate game-issues: you're thinking too much into it. When the game designers made the Jenova bosses and the Hojo transformation battle, I'd bet you all the money in the world that they didn't have anything special in mind, especially to the extent that you've explained. If you try to find some sort of proof in every little thing, you're going to end up on an endless road of useless points and speculation on things that even the game designers weren't thinking about.
To quote 'Kishi: "game mechanics." That's the answer to a lot of the things we're discussing here.
09-14-2003, 04:11 AM
Big D

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Well what if that's why "swords and fists" posed a risk? The crash into the planet damaged her significantly, so she had to mainly rely on wit, cunning, and deceit. Hence the need for Sephiroth.

All true, in my opinion too.

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He was being directly manipulated for any significant period of time TWICE, and that only for...a couple minutes? Sephiroth allowed himself to be deceived for the whole damn game.

Well... it's very hard to say for sure, but Sephiroth seems to have been manipulated in a more subtle way, by the implanting of false ideas and emotions, whereas Cloud's mind and body were completely taken out of his control. A direct manipulation, it seems.

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Yes, physical ability, intelligence, agility, etc etc etc. Mental strength, i.e. "hold on sanity/reality" is not dependent on physical characteristics, or many mental ones, such as intelligence. Sephiroth didn't exactly have a "nice" childhood with Hojo. That, combined with the shock of him thinking he was a freak of nature, severed his tenuous hold on sanity. End speculation, fact: Sephiroth went insane. Cloud didn't.

Heck yeah, he was nuts alright... all I meant was that he had the 'strength' to survive exposure to the Lifestream; a strength that Cloud lacked, hence Sephiroth's ability to avoid dying whilst undergoing the same ordeal.

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That's an interesting theory, and, as are most theories of that nature, cannot be proven or disproven. However, I do have one interesting theory of my own: that Jenova didn't give a damn about the Lifestream and just wanted to destroy the world, to revenge herself on the Planet and those living on it. She wanted, expected Meteor to destory the Planet utterly.

Well, I think it's mentioned at some point that Sephiroth intends to become one with Jenova. Not entirely sure, though; however it does make sense - especially in light of Bizarro-Sephiroth's 'composition'. It's entirely plausible that she just wanted to slaughter everyone in a fit of vengeful fury; however, it's fitting with her character that she'd have wanted to dominate every living thing.

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I don't think Sephiroth has "more" Jenova in him. However, I do think the Jenova cells in Sephiroth bonded in a unique way, and those in Cloud didn't. Also, Jenova had a special interest in Sephiroth, to which she didn't have for Cloud at the time.

Yep, again I agree; in fact, what you said is what I actually meant. Just didn't want to give a vague or confusing explanation by mistake.

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I think this reinforces my belief that a combination of Human life, Jenova cells and Mako energy has the potential to become more powerful than Jenova in her weakened state.

That's useless to speculate since it cannot be proven, and doesn't really have much fact basis.
I think you're doing one thing, a flaw in a lot of people who debate game-issues: you're thinking too much into it. When the game designers made the Jenova bosses and the Hojo transformation battle, I'd bet you all the money in the world that they didn't have anything special in mind, especially to the extent that you've explained. If you try to find some sort of proof in every little thing, you're going to end up on an endless road of useless points and speculation on things that even the game designers weren't thinking about.
To quote 'Kishi: "game mechanics." That's the answer to a lot of the things we're discussing here.

Sure, game mechanics can explain a lot; most of what's been speculated in this thread probaly wasn't contemplated by the writers, and is merely conjecture intended to 'fill the gaps' in a complex story. However, something as big as Hojo's transformation can serve as a strong basis for a proposition such as "Jenova cells can give Humans the ability to transform themselves in certain circumstances".
Part of the 'fun' comes from trying to extrapolate and postulate and come up with something to plug the holes in a potentially leaky plot.
09-14-2003, 07:47 AM
PhoenixAsh

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Jenova BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH have no Human components, yet are vulnerable; however, this is a random tangent and not of strict relevance to that elusive gem known as 'the point'.

Irrelevant I know, but those three parts were only very small elements of Jenova.

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I don't think she had much of a choice. He was capable of making that transformation; she was going to bond with him and become a part of his 'godliness' once it was all done.

She already was bonded to him. If she was pulling the strings it wouldn't matter who got the energy. She would have control over it.

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Of course. Sephiroth has MORE JENOVA IN HIM, he's a stronger being. If Cloud and Sephiroth were equals, Sephiroth would have died, swiftly. You want more proof that the Lifestream can provide power and knowledge? The entire purpose of summoning the meteor was to injure the Planet, unleashing a huge amount of Mako energy that Sephiroth would absorb to complete his transformation. That's stated clearly. Also, when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells, he naturally went crazy and wanted to use the Mako Cannon to deliver a surge of Mako to the North Cave. "My son is depending on the energy... I'm just giving him a helping hand".

Of course through that logic, you could argue that ONLY Jenova could bond with the planet and not Sephiroth. The lifestream would try and take something from humans, it wouldn't from Jenova.

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Isn't that what I was saying all along? Sephiroth's "Jenova component" made him stronger than any Human. After the Nibelheim disaster, Cloud got used for the experiment, in Hojo's attempt to 'recreate' Sephiroth. Cloud, too, became stronger; but not quite so strong as Sephiroth.

What evidence is there anywhere in the game that Cloud isn't quite as strong, if not stronger than Spehiroth?

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Think about THIS for a second... the individual pieces of Jenova that you fight throughout the game - BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH - they're quite strong, but not indestructible. Together, they make up almost the entirety of Jenova's body, save for the cells in the Clones, in Sephiroth and others extracted by Shinra. However, a normal Human who's injected himself with Jenova's cells and has been exposed to Mako radiation can become far stronger than these large parts of her body. I'm talking about Hojo. He OD'd on Jenova cells; I'm assuming he injected more than were used in regular SOLDIRERs or Clones - and also had significant Mako exposure. As a result, he was able to transform himself - something you, PhoenixAsh, claimed is impossible for any except Jenova herself. I think this reinforces my belief that a combination of Human life, Jenova cells and Mako energy has the potential to become more powerful than Jenova in her weakened state.

Who's to say Jenova wasn't controlling Hojo? He had enough cells, and was quite clearly crazy, so his mind would be weak enough to take over. He was also following Jenova's goal exactly, in fighting Cloud, and providing the Northern Cave with more energy. He also knew exactly what to do.

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Well... it's very hard to say for sure, but Sephiroth seems to have been manipulated in a more subtle way, by the implanting of false ideas and emotions, whereas Cloud's mind and body were completely taken out of his control. A direct manipulation, it seems.

Jenova attempts to control Cloud, but he is able to resist. This is DIRECT evidence from the game that he is mentally stronger than Sephiroth. That all occurred before he regained sanity, at which point Jenova could no longer affect him, which perfectly fits the Jenova theory.

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Heck yeah, he was nuts alright... all I meant was that he had the 'strength' to survive exposure to the Lifestream; a strength that Cloud lacked, hence Sephiroth's ability to avoid dying whilst undergoing the same ordeal.

But where is the evidence? As I just said, there's evidence Cloud was stronger. As Raistlin just said, his SOLDIER qualifications are irrelevant. What's left? Him going crazy?
09-14-2003, 09:10 AM
Big D

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What evidence is there anywhere in the game that Cloud isn't quite as strong, if not stronger than Spehiroth?

I'm assuming you're referring to Cloud after he received Jenova cell injections? We know for a fact that Sephiroth was stronger beforehand...
Well, the fact that Sephiroth survived his excursion in the Lifestream is evidence enough; as is the fact that Jenova 'enlisted' his aid and not Cloud's in her little power quest.

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Who's to say Jenova wasn't controlling Hojo? He had enough cells, and was quite clearly crazy, so his mind would be weak enough to take over. He was also following Jenova's goal exactly, in fighting Cloud, and providing the Northern Cave with more energy. He also knew exactly what to do.

Absolutely. However, I think it was more along the lines of 'passive control', like I suggested she exercised over Sephiroth. Hojo gave reasons for his actions, like wanting to help his son.

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Jenova attempts to control Cloud, but he is able to resist. This is DIRECT evidence from the game that he is mentally stronger than Sephiroth. That all occurred before he regained sanity, at which point Jenova could no longer affect him, which perfectly fits the Jenova theory.

Again, there's the difference between active control and passive manipulation. At the Temple of the Ancients and the Water Altar, Sephiroth controls Cloud's actions directly, making him do things completely against his will. The second time, he's able to shrug off the effects - but only because of prompting from his friends and because of the enormity of what he was about to do.

And also, all along, Jenova herself was influencing Cloud - he was being drawn to the Reunion by Sephiroth, just like every other Clone.
Nothing suggests that Sephiroth was ever under that same kind of direct control. When Cloud lost it on those two occasions, he was just a completely unreasoning puppet, merely performing actions without independent thought. Sephiroth, on the otehr hand, gives reasons and explanations for what he's doing. He's still thinking, even if those thoughts are corrupted. He was independent enough, and twisted enough - simply because of the influence that Jenova's cells were having on his mind - that he'd go along with her wishes without having to be dragged around unconsciously.

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Heck yeah, he was nuts alright... all I meant was that he had the 'strength' to survive exposure to the Lifestream; a strength that Cloud lacked, hence Sephiroth's ability to avoid dying whilst undergoing the same ordeal.

But where is the evidence? As I just said, there's evidence Cloud was stronger. As Raistlin just said, his SOLDIER qualifications are irrelevant. What's left? Him going crazy?

Evidence? I'm not sure what oyu mean, since I thought I stated it clearly... however, we know that Sephiroth didn't die, even after spending a veritable eternity in the Lifestream. Cloud's mind was nearly obliterated after only a week; any longer would undoubtedly be fatal. Even Tifa felt the effects after only a few hours. Sephiroth posessed the magical ability to use the Black Materia; that takes quite a lot of doing. He was also able to undergo Jenova transformations - I know, you can say that's because of his posession of Jenova cells; and that's true enough; but then, Cloud's enhanced strength only came from bearing Jenova cells as well. Sephiroth did a lot of things that Cloud couldn't; he was even able to psychokinetically levitate Cloud (the "Come on... the Black Materia..." sequence).
All I'm saying is that Sephiroth was one tough dude; of course, if you take away the bonuses afforded by Jenova cells, he's just another Human; perhaps a little less than that, since his father was Hojo after all. However Cloud, too, is "only Human" underneath his enhancements.
09-14-2003, 11:21 AM
PhoenixAsh

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I'm assuming you're referring to Cloud after he received Jenova cell injections? We know for a fact that Sephiroth was stronger beforehand...
Well, the fact that Sephiroth survived his excursion in the Lifestream is evidence enough; as is the fact that Jenova 'enlisted' his aid and not Cloud's in her little power quest.

On the contrary, I believe Jenova using Sephiroth shows exactly the opposite. It shows he was WEAKER. She only begins to control him (passively or otherwise) after he loses his mind. She doesn't control Cloud properly at all (although I believe she actually DOES at one point that I won't go into).
As you're arguement is defending Sephiroth's mind surviving the lifestream it's fairly circular to use it as evidence.

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Absolutely. However, I think it was more along the lines of 'passive control', like I suggested she exercised over Sephiroth. Hojo gave reasons for his actions, like wanting to help his son.

Okay fair enough with Hojo it makes sense for it to be passive, he stays fairly in character and has motives. Sephiroth on the other hand...

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Again, there's the difference between active control and passive manipulation. At the Temple of the Ancients and the Water Altar, Sephiroth controls Cloud's actions directly, making him do things completely against his will. The second time, he's able to shrug off the effects - but only because of prompting from his friends and because of the enormity of what he was about to do.

And also, all along, Jenova herself was influencing Cloud - he was being drawn to the Reunion by Sephiroth, just like every other Clone.
Nothing suggests that Sephiroth was ever under that same kind of direct control. When Cloud lost it on those two occasions, he was just a completely unreasoning puppet, merely performing actions without independent thought. Sephiroth, on the otehr hand, gives reasons and explanations for what he's doing. He's still thinking, even if those thoughts are corrupted. He was independent enough, and twisted enough - simply because of the influence that Jenova's cells were having on his mind - that he'd go along with her wishes without having to be dragged around unconsciously.

The thing is, nothing does suggest it in any particular scene. You have to look at the big picture to see it. Sephiroth's motives, his powers, Jenova's motives, her powers, the timing of events and changes in character.
The only reason Sephiroth is taken to be the main bad guy is because you chase him throughout the game. But the thing is everywhere you go it isn't Sephiroth, it's Jenova. Even when you go to the Northern Cave you see Jenova first, then you only see Sephiroth float around talking before suddenly Jenova is back in the picture.

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Evidence? I'm not sure what oyu mean, since I thought I stated it clearly... however, we know that Sephiroth didn't die, even after spending a veritable eternity in the Lifestream. Cloud's mind was nearly obliterated after only a week; any longer would undoubtedly be fatal. Even Tifa felt the effects after only a few hours. Sephiroth posessed the magical ability to use the Black Materia; that takes quite a lot of doing. He was also able to undergo Jenova transformations - I know, you can say that's because of his posession of Jenova cells; and that's true enough; but then, Cloud's enhanced strength only came from bearing Jenova cells as well. Sephiroth did a lot of things that Cloud couldn't; he was even able to psychokinetically levitate Cloud (the "Come on... the Black Materia..." sequence).

I'm not so sure it would have been fatal. Think about it, nomatter how strong Sephiroth's mind is, his muscles should have decayed, in fact his body should have decomposed. This suggests either that the lifestream or Jenova sustained him.
Given the reason the lifestream twisted Cloud's mind is the knowledge rush, a purely mental thing, and the stream is life itself, I'm inclined to think Cloud would have survived just as Sephiroth did.
09-14-2003, 06:22 PM
Raistlin

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all I meant was that he had the 'strength' to survive exposure to the Lifestream; a strength that Cloud lacked, hence Sephiroth's ability to avoid dying whilst undergoing the same ordeal

I don't think he avoided dying because of his own strength; I think Jenova just protected him.

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Well, I think it's mentioned at some point that Sephiroth intends to become one with Jenova.

Sephiroth also calls Cloud and co. "traitors to the Cetra" and says that Cloud didn't exist over 5 years ago. I think a significant portion of what Sephiroth said was either in an attempt to keep Cloud off guard, or either lies told to him by Jenova.

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owever, something as big as Hojo's transformation can serve as a strong basis for a proposition such as "Jenova cells can give Humans the ability to transform themselves in certain circumstances".

My point was just that when the writer's were looking for a boss, they could've thought of Hojo, and, to make him not a sickly old scientist, had him transform and just needed an excuse. However, Sephiroth transformed. Isn't that evidence enough? Though Sephiroth had a unique bond with Jenova unlike Hojo.
However, back to Hojo: if we're going on theories, I think that he ODed on Jenova cells so severely that he had more Jenova in him than human, and thus was reverting to a Jenova-like form. Phoenix also proposed a possible, plausible explanation.

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Well, the fact that Sephiroth survived his excursion in the Lifestream is evidence enough; as is the fact that Jenova 'enlisted' his aid and not Cloud's in her little power quest.

1. See my reply above to how Sephiroth survived the Lifestream
2. Jenova "enlisted" Sephiroth's aid before Cloud was injected with Jenova cells.
3. As you yourself admitted, Sephiroth had a unique bond with the Jenova cells that Cloud didn't. This does not directly prove who was stronger.

I don't know who's stronger...if I had to guess, I'd say Sephiroth, but I personally don't see the relevance.

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Again, there's the difference between active control and passive manipulation.

True. Sephiroth, most likely, wasn't being directly mind-controlled. However, Sephiroth still had a more tenuous control on sanity than did Cloud. Passive manipulation wouldn't work on Cloud. Jenova had tried...with the flashbacks, etc. Jenova had to resort to attempting to directly control Cloud through his Jenova cells, which would only work for moments, if at all.

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Nothing suggests that Sephiroth was ever under that same kind of direct control.

I agree.

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But where is the evidence? As I just said, there's evidence Cloud was stronger. As Raistlin just said, his SOLDIER qualifications are irrelevant. What's left? Him going crazy?

Evidence? I'm not sure what oyu mean, since I thought I stated it clearly... however, we know that Sephiroth didn't die, even after spending a veritable eternity in the Lifestream. Cloud's mind was nearly obliterated after only a week; any longer would undoubtedly be fatal.

As Big D said, Cloud was nearly killed by mako poisoning, Sephiroth wasn't. However, I think Jenova directly interfered, saving Sephiroth, shielding him, if you will. Mako poisoning destroys human minds, and I don't think Sephiroth's mind was abnormal except for his insanity. Jenova may have even taught Sephiroth how to keep the Lifestream from damaging his mind, so he could learn from it. There's many more plausible explanations involving Jenova than that Sephiroth just had the "strength" to survive it.

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This suggests either that the lifestream or Jenova sustained him.

Very well put. And since the Lifestream would have to be "out of its mind" to sustain Sephiroth, this suggests Jenova did it.
09-15-2003, 12:14 AM
Big D

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As Big D said, Cloud was nearly killed by mako poisoning, Sephiroth wasn't. However, I think Jenova directly interfered, saving Sephiroth, shielding him, if you will. Mako poisoning destroys human minds, and I don't think Sephiroth's mind was abnormal except for his insanity. Jenova may have even taught Sephiroth how to keep the Lifestream from damaging his mind, so he could learn from it. There's many more plausible explanations involving Jenova than that Sephiroth just had the "strength" to survive it.

Yeah, the Lifestream sustains life processes; after all, Cloud spent a week in it without dying of thirst or suffocation. The problem with the Lifestream is the fact that it's a near-random accumulation of the life energy of every plant, every animal, every Human, every Cetra who ever lived. A "massive amount of Mako-frenched knowledge", as the Mideel doctor put it. Cloud's brief exposure left him wheelchair-bound and all but brain-dead. The doctor said that it was somewhat miraculous that he survived at all, and even moreso that he recovered. I blame Jenova's cells for this superhuman resilience. Since Jenova is a 'larger part' of Sephiroth, I think that can explain his improved ability to not only survive the Lifestream's barrage of brainwaves, but also to make sense of all the thoughts, impressions and memories floating around there. Hence why Sephiroth learned about the Black Materia, why he learned that Jenova wasn't really an Ancient (as she had him believe, even though he didn't care when he found out about her true identity); whereas Cloud was left insensate, mumbling obscure references to broken mirrors and Xenogears.
09-15-2003, 12:29 AM
Doomgaze

"Broken mirrors" is also a Xenogears reference.

Most of you have mentioned Sephiroth's insanity... Who says he was insane? He didn't seem too out of it to me.
09-15-2003, 01:44 AM
Raistlin

He went from wondering who he truly was to burning down and destroying all of a town, and you don't call that insane?

Oh, and D, yes, I think the Jenova cells in Cloud was the reason for his "resilience" as you put it. However, Sephiroth had NO ill effects from the Lifestream. Cloud managed to survive and endure; Sephiroth didn't even have to bother with effects, and he spent years in the Lifestream. I think that suggests Jenova's direct intervention.
09-15-2003, 09:26 AM
Big D

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Most of you have mentioned Sephiroth's insanity... Who says he was insane? He didn't seem too out of it to me.

I haven't known that many genocidal megalomaniac nihilists who beheaded their mothers because they thought she was a higher form of life... but those that I have met were usually slightly bonkers.
09-15-2003, 04:06 PM
Raistlin

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Originally posted by Big D
I haven't known that many genocidal megalomaniac nihilists who beheaded their mothers because they thought she was a higher form of life... but those that I have met were usually slightly bonkers.

:love:
09-15-2003, 04:38 PM
Nevermore

Concerning Zack

All right, I think I got it about Zack, I couldn't remember that last flashback where Cloud meets..himself, or whatever.
Cloud (I still don't get how he could exist before the events of ''16 years ago'' if he's a clone.) never made it to SOLDIER. He lied to everyone saying he was, and being built like someone from SOLDIER thanks to the failed experiment, there was no choice but to believe him. So basicaly, he joined SOLDIER in order to be noticed by everyone, more especially Tifa. But having never made it, he became a normal generic soldier, and was there on the Nibelheim Mako inspection. (But he didn't want to show himself, so he kept the mask on.) Zack was a friend, and he ripped off what Zack did from square one and made it so it was him. So that's all, he just took someone else's story and made it his own.
Zack got messed up by Sephy after the later went mad, and the only reason why Cloud was able to injure Sephiroth is because he got him from behind.
Let's not forget that before that, he got Tifa out of the way (who was eventually rescued by her martial arts teacher, Zangan.) therefore keeping the um..''promise''.

Then he hucked Sephy in the Mako, although I fail to understand how he got impaled by Sephy and survived.

Is this about right? And how did Sephiroth survive the Mako? What happened to him afterwards?
09-15-2003, 07:43 PM
Raistlin

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I still don't get how he could exist before the events of ''16 years ago'' if he's a clone.

Cloud wasn't a clone in the literal sense. He's a Sephiroth clone because, at a certain time in his life, he was injected with Sephiroth/Jenova cells. Go see the optional flashback in the Shinra Mansion basement in disc 3.

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He lied to everyone saying he was, and being built like someone from SOLDIER thanks to the failed experiment, there was no choice but to believe him.

Not quite...Cloud actually did think he was from SOLDIER.

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So that's all, he just took someone else's story and made it his own.

Well, actually his own mind took in what he'd heard from Zack and put that in his own memories. Cloud's not the brightest bulb around, if you know what I mean.

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and the only reason why Cloud was able to injure Sephiroth is because he got him from behind.

From behind? Huh? Sephiroth impaled Cloud on the Masamune. Straight up. However, Cloud managed to throw Sephiroth off the walk-way into the mako below.

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Then he hucked Sephy in the Mako, although I fail to understand how he got impaled by Sephy and survived.

That's up to debate...the simplest, and most likely answer is "game mechanics." However, that's possible evidence to show that Cloud may have been given Jenova cells prior to the Nibelheim incident.

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Is this about right? And how did Sephiroth survive the Mako? What happened to him afterwards?

Sephiroth survived in the mako because of his Jenova cells. IMO, Jenova herself either shielded Sephiroth from the mako poisoning, or taught him how to deal with it. Anyways, Sephiroth floated around in the mako, gaining knowledge of the Lifestream, for a while, before surfacing in the North Crater, which is where you find him early in disc 2.
09-15-2003, 08:26 PM
PhoenixAsh

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That's up to debate...the simplest, and most likely answer is "game mechanics." However, that's possible evidence to show that Cloud may have been given Jenova cells prior to the Nibelheim incident.

Erm.... Wha???

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Sephiroth survived in the mako because of his Jenova cells. IMO, Jenova herself either shielded Sephiroth from the mako poisoning, or taught him how to deal with it. Anyways, Sephiroth floated around in the mako, gaining knowledge of the Lifestream, for a while, before surfacing in the North Crater, which is where you find him early in disc 2.

I'd question that Sephiroth really did gain any knowledge from the lifestream. Jenova could have because she could understand the Cetra, but Sephiroth? Cloud didn't either.
In fact given Cloud's experience I'd suggest that the lifestream is more like a key to your own knowledge, and not capable of granting new knowledge, at least to humans.
09-15-2003, 10:03 PM
Doomgaze

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He went from wondering who he truly was to burning down and destroying all of a town, and you don't call that insane?

If I step on a few ants, am I insane? There's a difference between "evil" and "insane"...

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I haven't known that many genocidal megalomaniac nihilists who beheaded their mothers because they thought she was a higher form of life... but those that I have met were usually slightly bonkers.

I... um... ok, maybe. I think there was SOME point to that, not that he just he wanted a keepsake. I really don't know.

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From behind? Huh? Sephiroth impaled Cloud on the Masamune. Straight up. However, Cloud managed to throw Sephiroth off the walk-way into the mako below.

Read what he said again before you reply... "and the only reason why Cloud was able to injure Sephiroth is because he got him from behind."

Let's review what happened: Sephiroth slashes Tifa and knocks her aside, then heads into Jenova's chamber. Zack follows, and is easily defeated and knocked out of the room. Cloud follows, taking Zack's Buster Sword. Now, Sephiroth has turned his attention to Jenova, and isn't watching behind him. Cloud runs in and stabs him with the buster sword. Now, Sephiroth leaves, injured, with Jenova's head. Cloud follows, and Sephiroth says "Don't push your luck", and impales Cloud with the Masamune. Cloud lifts him up by the blade and tosses him into the Lifestream. See, Sephiroth is ALSO severely injured at this point - that, combined with Cloud's anger (a limit break?) is why Cloud can chuck him over the edge.
09-15-2003, 10:25 PM
Raistlin

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If I step on a few ants, am I insane? There's a difference between "evil" and "insane"...

Yes, but take a good look at Sephiroth's character before and during the Nibelheim incident. He was calm, composed, possibly arrogant?
Less than an hour later: he's destroying the town, raving about freeing his "mother" and other such nonsense.

If that's not insane, I don't know what is.
09-16-2003, 08:15 AM
Doomgaze

I think it was at LEAST a few days, I don't remember.
09-16-2003, 10:42 AM
Big D

Well, sure; but it's a heck of a change of personality (and lifestyle) to happen in such a short space of time.
There's a sizeable grey area at the intersection of "eccentric", "determined", "zealous" and "totally frickin' off yer rocker"; but I feel that Sephiroth was quite firmly situated somewhere near the latter category. Now, you could argue that he wasn't really insane by reason that his more unusual notions might've been planted by Jenova, but that's all water under the bridge. He talked like a madman, he obsessed like a madman, he massacred cities and beheaded maternal figures like a madman. Insofar as the external observer is concerned, Sephiroth was buying up large in the 'La-La Land Real Estate'.
[q=PhoenixAsh]

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That's up to debate...the simplest, and most likely answer is "game mechanics." However, that's possible evidence to show that Cloud may have been given Jenova cells prior to the Nibelheim incident.

Erm.... Wha???
[/q]There's some evidence; however it's very vague and extremely speculative. I don't personally believe it, but it's impossible to rule out. Raistlin is one of, if not the only advocate of the idea. I'm sure he'll be willing to fill you in. I could argue both sides... but I won't. More fun this way...
09-16-2003, 04:44 PM
Nevermore

Quote:

Let's review what happened: Sephiroth slashes Tifa and knocks her aside, then heads into Jenova's chamber. Zack follows, and is easily defeated and knocked out of the room. Cloud follows, taking Zack's Buster Sword. Now, Sephiroth has turned his attention to Jenova, and isn't watching behind him. Cloud runs in and stabs him with the buster sword. Now, Sephiroth leaves, injured, with Jenova's head. Cloud follows, and Sephiroth says "Don't push your luck", and impales Cloud with the Masamune. Cloud lifts him up by the blade and tosses him into the Lifestream. See, Sephiroth is ALSO severely injured at this point - that, combined with Cloud's anger (a limit break?) is why Cloud can chuck him over the edge.

Yeah, it's what I saw. Cloud probably wouldn't have had much of a chance were Sephiroth not turned around and concentrating on something else.

As for Cloud's mind giving him his memories..I thought I suggested that earlier..and I was wrong. Now it's right? Er..
I thought Cloud did all this on his own, prior to having thought his mind and the Jenova cells gave him Zack's identity.
09-16-2003, 04:47 PM
Raistlin

Quote:

Originally posted by Doomgaze
I think it was at LEAST a few days, I don't remember.

Well, depends on your take on it. If you're talking about from the time in the Reactor, then yeah, it was a day or two. However, Sephiroth spent that day or two in the Shinra Mansion, reading. Hard to tell at exactly what point he went nuts. So, I'd say a day, at most.

Quote:

There's some evidence; however it's very vague and extremely speculative.

I know, which is why I rarely mention it. :D
It's just one of my "interesting theories" to explain a part in the game that isn't explained very well by anything else. Kinda like the Jenova-destroying-the-world one.
09-16-2003, 09:45 PM
§håd0w

Quote:

Originally posted by Yamaneko
Well, depends on your take on it. If you're talking about from the time in the Reactor, then yeah, it was a day or two. However, Sephiroth spent that day or two in the Shinra Mansion, reading. Hard to tell at exactly what point he went nuts. So, I'd say a day, at most.

Sephiroth 'locked' himself (as so its says) in the Shinra Basment. He was reading for a while. When Zack (Cloud in his story) went to the basement, he checked up of Sephiroth. A few days later the Shinra Troop (more than likely it was Cloud) told Zack that something was wrong with Sephiroth. Zack went downstairs, got a monologue by Sephiroth, was pushed aside, and then Sephiroth left the mansion. If he didn't killed the troop, I dunno. But what I soeculate is that CLoud was the troop, he went outside looking for Sephiroth when he heard screams, and burning villages, and was then attacked by Sephiroth or passed out from the smoke. As you saw, the troop laying in front of Cloud's house WAS Cloud, and Zack was the sane one. Then it goes to the Mako Reactor scene.

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