Time travel and the R=U theories (MASSIVE FRICKEN SPOILER WARNING)

Ok, I thought of some stuff that may fall into the theory that Rinoa eventually becomes Ulitmecia.

1. When Ultimecia posesses Rinoa at the end of disc 2 which leads to Squall and Rinoa going to the space station and then freeing Adel. What I beleive happened was the Ultimecia possesed Rinoas body and then she then lets go of Rinoa and possesses Adel, which would hereby releve Rinoa of her Sorceress powers henceforth not being a sorceress anymore

2. Rinoa witnesses Squall kill Ultimecia at the end of the game, if Ultimecia wen't through all of that trouble to plan to possess people and try to take of there world with here powers then if she were Rinoa then she definetly wouldn't make the same mistakes twice and remebering all of the stuff that Squall and his friends did to thwart her plans then hereby not failing in her plans.

If Ellone would happen to be Raines daughter then I can add more to this theory but untill then I can most likely say that Sorceress Ultimecia is in some relations with Ellone, Raine or most likely is Ellone herself.

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Originally posted by Joel
Ok, I thought of some stuff that may fall into the theory that Rinoa eventually becomes Ulitmecia.

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You KNOW the letters R=U are like honey to brears to me.

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1. When Ultimecia posesses Rinoa at the end of disc 2 which leads to Squall and Rinoa going to the space station and then freeing Adel. What I beleive happened was the Ultimecia possesed Rinoas body and then she then lets go of Rinoa and possesses Adel, which would hereby releve Rinoa of her Sorceress powers henceforth not being a sorceress anymore

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Unlikely, Rinoa still uses angel wings, which is the use fo her Sorceress powers. (she got them after she drained Edea) Edea talks to her a lot about how she has to be careful now that she's a sorceress. The Estharans want to lock her up for being a sorceress. Rinoa is still a sorceress.

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2. Rinoa witnesses Squall kill Ultimecia at the end of the game, if Ultimecia wen't through all of that trouble to plan to possess people and try to take of there world with here powers then if she were Rinoa then she definetly wouldn't make the same mistakes twice and remebering all of the stuff that Squall and his friends did to thwart her plans then hereby not failing in her plans.

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Griever = Guardian Force = Memory loss. All tha Ultimecia knows is what's in the history books. That they are the 'fated children destined to fight her' She doesnt even remember she was one of them.

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If Ellone would happen to be Raines daughter then I can add more to this theory but untill then I can most likely say that Sorceress Ultimecia is in some relations with Ellone, Raine or most likely is Ellone herself.

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There IS a relation. Ultimecia used the JDE, which imitates Ellone's brainpaterns to go to the past (our present, and then used Ellone to go all the way back so she could compress time. Also, Ellone is not Raine's daughter. Her parents died before Laguna arrived. Laguna talks to their picture in the beginning of disc 2. "Ellone's been a very good girl today."

For some reason I keep thinking that Ellone grows up to Ultimecia, I beleive that Ellone might be doing all of this time travel just to attempt to change the past. She does it with Squall and his friends to try and help Laguna and his friends out but then I thought that maybe Ellone might be upset with the way the past is so she uses her powers to try and fix them but her time travel powers were used so much that they possible made her go crazy.

There's even less evidence to support an E=U theory than there is an R=U, but it is possible. I doubt it though. I don't see why her powers would make her go insane, because doesnt she need to use someone else to do it? I mean, she sends Squall and the others back... it doesnt seem to be a strain on her body or mind, more on theirs.

Well get this, she's the only one in the story who can use the power to posess somebodys spirit that she knows and travel back in time to see if she can change the past, Im guessing her powers seemed to grow over time so she would just need to look into the past and instantly posess somebody. This is just my theory.

I believe it states in the game, however, that Ultimecia is using a machine invented by Doctor Odine which imitates Ellone's powers. It was a device he was developing when he studied Ellone as a child. Odine explains that the reason Ultimecia was going after Ellone was becuase the machine had limits as to how far back it could send someone's consciousness, and Ulty wanted to go further back. She needed to possess the actual Ellone to do so. Therefore, if Ellone was Ulty, why would she need a machine which imitates powers she already posesses? And why would she be restrained by a machine which isn't as powerful as her natural gifts? It kind of disproves the whole "Ellone is Ulty because they have similar powers" theory too, becuase Ulty is getting them unnaturally. Therefore, I'd have to say its very doubtful E=U.

However, its interesting that you bring up that connection, since I thought of writing a fanfic when I was younger which had Ulty as a descendant of Ellone, and a native of Esthar. Wierd. :p

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Originally posted by Rand Al'Tor
Griever = Guardian Force = Memory loss. All tha Ultimecia knows is what's in the history books. That they are the 'fated children destined to fight her' She doesnt even remember she was one of them.

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Actually, I don't think Rinoa is one of the 'fated children' whatsoever. She didn't grow up in the orphanage with everyone else, nor does she ever take the part of either Laguna, Ward or Kiros in the dream sequences. In my eyes, the only reason she features in the plot is because she's a sorceress. I mean, hell, what does Rinoa actually do to help their cause? She's the one who instigates the trouble, not the successes... but mweh, it's just a game =P

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Originally posted by Joel
Well get this, she's the only one in the story who can use the power to posess somebodys spirit that she knows and travel back in time to see if she can change the past, Im guessing her powers seemed to grow over time so she would just need to look into the past and instantly posess somebody. This is just my theory.

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Like Shiva said, there was Junction Machine Ellone. IT does say that that is what Ultemecia used to send her consiousness back and possess sorceresses of the past (Edea, Adel, Rinoa)

There is also another good piece of evidence to look out for which supports the rinultimecia theory (my name for Rinoa-Ultimecia ^_^)
When you fight Griever at the end.... look closely at his explosion once you beat him, before Ultemecia junctions herself to him. You'll notice that when he explodes, white feathers float about the place. Hard to see, yes, but look, they are there.
And I believe we all know which character in the game is associated with white feathers.

Now, hold on, i was thinking about the E=U theory. and i see how you can disprove it with the fact that she uses the JDE, but what if, with her memory loss, she also lost her powers? i am not going to fully support this theory, but it could make sense.....

Sure, it's possible, but why would she lose that power, and why only that power? The memory loss is an easy one of course, but power loss isnt. However, that theory does make the link possible...

Yeah, but the basis for E=U was that they used the same powers. If you then claim that the theory could work because maybe she lost her powers and they no longer shared abilities.... what's the point?

R=U is the only theory about Ultimecia that I've seen make any kind of sense.

Joel
QUOTE]2. Rinoa witnesses Squall kill Ultimecia at the end of the game, if Ultimecia wen't through all of that trouble to plan to possess people and try to take of there world with here powers then if she were Rinoa then she definetly wouldn't make the same mistakes twice and remebering all of the stuff that Squall and his friends did to thwart her plans then hereby not failing in her plans.[/QUOTE]

Fate is a huge element of the game. Even if she DID remember then she wouldn't be able to change anything because then she wouldn't see herself do it in the past and so couldn't change it.
Time travel is fairly shaky in VIII but I'm pretty sure the cycle of Sorceresses confirms that at least that version of time travel and cause and effect holds true.

Okay, at the end of the game, Squall witnesses Edea accepting Ultimecia's powers. So Edea has Ultimecia's powers. Later, Edea becomes posessed by Ultimecia(which is in the future, but Edea still has her powers) and then the future Ultimecia posesses Rinoa (which never actually accepts Ultimecia's powers) but Edea is posessed no more (is she still a sorceress?) . Um, I just don't get it.

Ultimecia can possess any sorceress and Edea lost her powers when she got beat up in disk(2 or 3??) and gave them to rinoa and thats how rinoa became a sorceress and how ultimecia can possess her...

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Originally posted by Aerio
Ultimecia can possess any sorceress and Edea lost her powers when she got beat up in disk(2 or 3??) and gave them to rinoa and thats how rinoa became a sorceress and how ultimecia can possess her...

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Actually. Edea was still a sorceress. Her powers (back from when she was 5) were received from the sorceress before Adel, if memory serves me right. Ultimecia possessed her to do her bidding when she was a grown woman. Which was (SPOILER)AFTER Squall and co. defeated Ulti at the end, but chronologically before anything in FF8 happened

but in the game edea goes to see Dr. Odine to get her powers sealed and he tells her she lost them to someone else...and then they figure out that they passed em to Rinoa...im probably wrong though :P

I think we're getting "being possessed by Ulty" confused with "inheriting the sorceress powers." Being possessed by Ultimecia does NOT give anyone sorceress powers. Everyone she possesses already has those powers, which is WHY she possess them. (For example, Ulty had no interest in Rinoa whatsoever until she inherited Edea's powers.) Ulty wanted to possess sorceresses so that she could use their powers to accomplish her goals - since she could not be there in person to do these things herself (she could only send her conciousness back until time compression was achieved), she would obviously want to possess those who were equally as powerful as she was in her own time.

Now, that said, here is the cronology as I understand it:

1. Edea gets her sorceress powers at age 5 from some sorceress other than Adel. Who this person was is unclear. There must have been multiple sorceresses, since Edea and Adel had to have gotten their powers from different people. Nothing ever says that only one sorceress can exist in the world at a time, just that at the end of the game, Rinoa is the only one currently.

2. Adel is defeated in the first sorceress war and confined. Since she is not killed, her powers remain. However, since no one other than Estharians know how the war ended, others suspect Edea inherited Adel's powers. This is not true.

3. When Squall and Co. are kids, Edea meets a dying Ulty from the future. Edea accepts Ulty's powers, adding them to the ones she already possesses.

4. Ulty, using Junction Machine Ellone, sends her consciousness back in time and possesses Edea. Edea, controlled by Ulty, goes public as a sorceress and begins amassing political power in order to set Ulty's plans for time compression in motion.

5. Edea is defeated by Squall and Co. Her powers are somehow transferred to Rinoa. Sensing this, Ulty possesses Rinoa. Edea is no longer a sorceress.

6. Rinoa, possessed by Ulty, releases Adel. Adel junctions Rinoa to herself. When Adel is defeated, her powers transfer to Rinoa.

7. Rinoa is possessed by Ultimecia. Ellone sends the Rinoa/Ultimecia conciosuness into the past to achieve time compression.

8. With time compressed, Ulty releases Rinoa, since Ulty can now exist physically.

9. Rin, Squall and Co. defeat Ulty. Ulty travels to the past and gives her powers to Edea. Time fixes itself.
Rinoa is still a sorceress. They only one in the present.

Hope that clears things up. :p

Crystal clear. *muah*

Could someone explain this argument a bit better for me.
Are we talking about sorceress powers being passed on (Rinoa to Ultimecia) or Rinoa somehow physically becoming ultimecia.
Anyway how far is Ultimecia in the future from 'Present time' (Squall's time)

The theory suggests (fairly convincingly IMO) that Rinoa physically becomes Ultimecia.

Ultimecia exists generations after the main game.

I haven't seen the part in a while, did Edea actually get powers twice, or did she just get them once from Ultimecia when she was 5?

Does having sorceress powers make someone live longer? I was not aware of that, how could rinoa live long enough to become ultimecia otherwise?

I don't think that Rinoa is Utimecia, and here are my reasons...

01. "She turned evil after Squall died."
This is completely against Rinoa's whole personality. Though Rinoa loves Squall, he is not her only priority. She has other friends and other values. It's more likely that Rinoa would start a foundation, dedicated to the cause of Squall's death, or do something actively good and beneficial for other people who suffer. If he was murdered, Rinoa would probably be more interested in getting revenge rather than turning evil herself. Aside from this, Rinoa cares a great deal about what people think of her: by turning evil, won't everybody hate her? Think of when she placed herself in the Sorceress Memorial. She knew very well that she wouldn't ever be able to see Squall again, yet she willingly sacrificed herself so that people could not be harmed by her. Rinoa is also very optimistic, and would rather settle down and live a quiet life alone, tending some large garden in the rain by the sea, rather than go harm people because something happened to her beloved Squallyworm.

02. "Her castle is where Squall and Rinoa's meadow is."
Have you noticed nearly every sorceress takes a liking to remote areas - a place where they aren't attacked or in fear of harming other people, a place far from population where they can either plot or hide? All of the sorceresses who are in control of their will have all chosen the exact same location - the isolated field - the orphanage by the sea. Edea chose that same remote place, Rinoa wanted to go to that remote place, now Ultimecia is in the same remote place. Since they all, even Edea, went to the same location, is this suggesting Rinoa might also be Edea? Ultimecia also destroyed the field by building her castle on top of it - do you think Rinoa would wish to do this if she treasured it so? Rinoa would probably let it grow naturally, and spend her evenings sitting on the shore wishing Squall was next to her rather than building a castle atop it.

03. "Their faces are the same shape, etc."
This is very untrue. Rinoa's face is more rounded: Ultimecia's chin is kind of pointy; a lot more narrow. Also keep in mind that everyone's faces tended to look a little similar in the FMVs (meaning Quistis, Selphie, Rinoa, etc. all looked fairly similar) because of the way they were animated. Ultimecia and Rinoa's eyes are different shapes, as well. Rinoa's eyes are straight along the bottom and curved along the top, and Ultimecia's are the exact opposite; the tops are straight and the bottoms are curved. I don't even see where this suggestion comes from.

04. "Ultimecia's ending lines."
In her ending lines, Ultimecia mentions childhood. Childhood has nothing to do with Rinoa and Squall - they never knew each other in their childhoods; therefore, childhood would not concern Rinoa if she became evil in her misery of lacking Squall. Most of what Ultimecia said in her ending lines had to do with childhood and the past. Edea is even more likely to say this instead of Rinoa, since she knows every bit of Squall's past. Rinoa did talk about time a good deal, but she was always talking about the present. She talked about how you should use every moment you've been given and not worry about the past. She let go of time very easily - why would she want to be in a merged time, all life stilled, when she was so intent upon living her life? If she merged time, then she would be caught in the past; and she let the past go very, very easily.

05. "A sorceress must die for powers to be passed. Where did Rinoa's powers come from?"
At the time, Edea was with Dr. Odine trying to rid herself of her power. Rinoa received her powers directly after Edea loses her powers. Is it not possible that Rinoa received Edea's magic? Sorceress powers must go somewhere: they do not simply vanish or cease to exist. That's why Ultimecia was wandering in the end, she had to find someone to give her powers to in order to finally cease being a ghost. Also notice that, in the compressed time where Ultimecia was looking to give up her powers, she chose Squall's childhood? There was no Rinoa whatsoever. It's a mystery as to where Ultimecia inherited her own powers: perhaps Rinoa gave them to her when she finally died, or perhaps some other sorceress that was never even mentioned.

In the first theory that "Rinoa is Ultimecia", it was claimed that the game stated that a sorceress MUST DIE for her powers to be passed on. However, it was never stated. It was assumed. Anyway, where did Rinoa's powers initially come from, then, if no one died to give them to her? This question almost contradicts itself.

07. "Sorceresses don't age."
This is untrue. Or rather, it is never defined. It was mentioned that Adel never died, but this is because she was frozen and preserved. The point of freezing a human being is to slow their body functions down enough where everything in the body happens so slowly that it doesn't wear the body out. As the people do not know what to do with sorceresses, nor can they destroy them, they freeze them so they are unable to do damage. Therefore, Adel did not age.

It was also mentioned that Cid looks a lot older than Edea, which I don't really find true. Cid and Edea are probably in their late thirties. Neither have any grey hair or show any signs of tremendous age, and both look fairly young but mature. The contrast is that Edea (as Matron) looks very innocent and Cid looks hard-working. Also, it was never specified how old Cid was when he married Edea, nor how old Edea was when she married Cid. Maybe Cid was older than Edea, that's not so uncommon. Anyhow, women always look younger than their men counterparts because women naturally age slightly slower. :3 And anyway, Squaresoft wouldn't put old ladies as main characters~

08. "Kursed SeeDs."
It is far more likely that Ultimecia is Edea than Rinoa, because of the background behind this line. Cid and Edea once talked, as if they knew, that Edea would come to dislike SeeDs. Rinoa didn't care one way or the other about SeeD; rather, she was more grateful to them for helping her so many times and giving her Squall. Ultimecia obviously hates them, but Rinoa has absolutely no reason to hate SeeDs. This contradicts another point that this theory brought up. It was stated that Rinoa became Ultimecia out of love for Squall, who died. Why would Rinoa hate SeeDs SO much if her beloved Squall was a SeeD?

06. Others
Rinoa was left by Ultimecia to die in space (after Ultimecia was through using Rinoa to release Adel, she released her possession on her and allowed her to float off into space). If Rinoa were Ultimecia, and she killed herself while she was Rinoa, then Ultimecia would never have come to be Ultimecia. It's suicide.

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I haven't seen the part in a while, did Edea actually get powers twice, or did she just get them once from Ultimecia when she was 5?

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She actually got them twice - once when she was five from a sorceress of unknown origins, then later when she was Matron of the orphanage during Squall's stay there. Squall was probably around 4 or 5, so Edea recieved Ulty's powers about 12 years before the game begins. We discover this at the end of the game, when the adult Squall travels back in time to see Ulty transfer her powers to Edea. Edea is clearly an adult, and Squall sees a younger version of himself. This conflicts with Edea's claim that she first recieved the sorceress powers at age 5, so she must have gotten 2 sets of powers. :)

Singing wings, that is a convincing argument. I wasnt sure but that makes it fairly clear. Especially when Ulty leaves Rinoa. Is it possible to possess yourself anyway?

Cid is 40, it says in the strategy guide,it also says that because he is so hard working it makes him seem aged beyond his years. Edeas age is unknown but she doesnt really look like she could be much younger than late 30's

Singing_Wings:

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06. Others
Rinoa was left by Ultimecia to die in space (after Ultimecia was through using Rinoa to release Adel, she released her possession on her and allowed her to float off into space). If Rinoa were Ultimecia, and she killed herself while she was Rinoa, then Ultimecia would never have come to be Ultimecia. It's suicide.

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Ultimecia wouldn't know she was Rinoa, so wouldn't care.
If Rinoa died she wouldn't be able to put herself in that position and couldn't have died. I've used this loop to promote the arguement for R=U on occassion.

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01. "She turned evil after Squall died."
This is completely against Rinoa's whole personality. Though Rinoa loves Squall, he is not her only priority. She has other friends and other values. It's more likely that Rinoa would start a foundation, dedicated to the cause of Squall's death, or do something actively good and beneficial for other people who suffer. If he was murdered, Rinoa would probably be more interested in getting revenge rather than turning evil herself. Aside from this, Rinoa cares a great deal about what people think of her: by turning evil, won't everybody hate her? Think of when she placed herself in the Sorceress Memorial. She knew very well that she wouldn't ever be able to see Squall again, yet she willingly sacrificed herself so that people could not be harmed by her. Rinoa is also very optimistic, and would rather settle down and live a quiet life alone, tending some large garden in the rain by the sea, rather than go harm people because something happened to her beloved Squallyworm.

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I recommend the last few episodes of Buffy Season 6 for answers to most of that.

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02. "Her castle is where Squall and Rinoa's meadow is."
Have you noticed nearly every sorceress takes a liking to remote areas - a place where they aren't attacked or in fear of harming other people, a place far from population where they can either plot or hide? All of the sorceresses who are in control of their will have all chosen the exact same location - the isolated field - the orphanage by the sea. Edea chose that same remote place, Rinoa wanted to go to that remote place, now Ultimecia is in the same remote place. Since they all, even Edea, went to the same location, is this suggesting Rinoa might also be Edea? Ultimecia also destroyed the field by building her castle on top of it - do you think Rinoa would wish to do this if she treasured it so? Rinoa would probably let it grow naturally, and spend her evenings sitting on the shore wishing Squall was next to her rather than building a castle atop it.

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I never liked this arguement anyway, but to argue that Edea, Rinoa and Ulty all liked the area is pointless. Rinoa went there because of Edea, and the claim is that Ulty IS Rinoa, so the arguement is lost.

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07. "Sorceresses don't age."
This is untrue. Or rather, it is never defined. It was mentioned that Adel never died, but this is because she was frozen and preserved. The point of freezing a human being is to slow their body functions down enough where everything in the body happens so slowly that it doesn't wear the body out. As the people do not know what to do with sorceresses, nor can they destroy them, they freeze them so they are unable to do damage. Therefore, Adel did not age.

It was also mentioned that Cid looks a lot older than Edea, which I don't really find true. Cid and Edea are probably in their late thirties. Neither have any grey hair or show any signs of tremendous age, and both look fairly young but mature. The contrast is that Edea (as Matron) looks very innocent and Cid looks hard-working. Also, it was never specified how old Cid was when he married Edea, nor how old Edea was when she married Cid. Maybe Cid was older than Edea, that's not so uncommon. Anyhow, women always look younger than their men counterparts because women naturally age slightly slower. :3 And anyway, Squaresoft wouldn't put old ladies as main characters~

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The sheer amount of things done by Cid and Edea suggests that they are older than mid thirties. Edea, Adel and Ultimecia all display at least some physical alterations due to their powers Rinoas have yet to be seen.

The other things you mentioned aren't hugely relevant either way I think, but you did leave out one HUGE point, Griever.

Of course the whole theory lies on one fragile beam...the fact that sorceresses have extended life.
Where on earth was that EVER mentioned

im not reading through all the posts.just the first two,so if you mentioned something i have said,you know why.

One-Ellone ISNTS any relation to Raine.Ellons parents were killed(cant remember how.The time they Esthar was looking for sorcceresses I think)and Raine,who lived next door,took her in.Laguna came to take care of her aswell and love her very much.End of that.

two-Three generations(pretty sure they siad three) are in between Rinoa and Ultimecia.How long is each generation,hmm?And you must remember,it cant be a terrably huge amount of time because,like Adel,Rinoa is human and so isnt Ultimecia.Powers or no.

Three-'Even if you become the worlds enemy,i'll be your knight'.Do you remember that in Squalls thoughts?Well,if Squall was Rinoas knight,why didnt we have to fight dear Squally?Sure,yes,he could have been killed by the sorcceress,but not likely for Ultimecia/Rinoa would still remember she love/loved Squall despite the GF.

in favor of r=u

...the wings basically.only thing that makes me belive they are the same.
those are my dissagreements on that.

Okay, I haven't read all this but I have questions anyway...

1.) Why is Griever the GF of Squall's ring in the present, yet only usable by Ultemecia years later. (the ring probably would've decomposed by then)

2.) Ultimecia is killed at the end. If R=U, then U=R, then Rinoa would've died simultaneously. I know Squall sees her vanish in the end but they meet once more for the "Squall Smiling' scene.

3.) Rinoa gets Edea's sorceress powers yet never accepts them. Edea says that she accepted her powers from a sorceress when she was young. So, how exactly are powers passed?

YOu know i always swore that Ultimecia said she called Greiver from Squalls mind but im probably wrong it was long time ago and the first time it turned all blue for i couldn't read text...but she does say some weird stuff throughout battle

"The most pwoerful GF, you will suffer! Griever! Make them bleed!"

Ansem, as far as if you kill ultimecia Rinoa dies-well,that wouldnt be the case.Ultimecia is in the future.If you killed rinoa in the present and she was Ultimecia,then Ultimecia would die.What you do in the future doesnt really affect the present(thats why i never fully understood FF 8....it makes almost no sense)

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Originally posted by Aerio
YOu know i always swore that Ultimecia said she called Greiver from Squalls mind but im probably wrong it was long time ago and the first time it turned all blue for i couldn't read text...

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Close, you read that if you cast Scan on Griever.

umm ok...after reading every bit of that...i am slightly confused...so I have a question....please e-mail with the answer.

Ok...at the end of the game...squall and rinoa are still there...like no one vanish's or dies? Hope not!

Ok e-mail me at rusty_angel777@hotmail.com

thanks

*rusty*

Well odine says that she is probably using his invention but as he is just trying to theorize Odine doesnt know if she realy did use his silly machine. Odine just doesnt think E=U

U using his machine is the only reasonable thing he can think of. :cool:

Hmmm.... If R=U, then let's ask ourselves why you don't automatically win if Rinoa is defeated in battle against Ultimecia?

Ignoring the paradoxes that would probably solve it anyway, how about the fact that a defeat in battle doesn't equal death?

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAsh

Ignoring the paradoxes that would probably solve it anyway, how about the fact that a defeat in battle doesn't equal death?

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And for that matter why didnt someone at Trabia have a few "life"s to revive everyone?

Maybe THATS why there arent so many graves in ff8! the only way someone can die is if they are mangled into a twisted heap of human flesh!

(Trabia missle crisis, Raines car crash)
Twisted heaps of flesh and bone for ya!

You cant kill your own past, it just wont happen. I always like using the back to the future example. You mess with your own creators (parents) you dissapear. You in the future messing with your own past (creator of your future self)...it just cant happen. Its like George McFly can probably kill Marty (the future) but Marty is doing anything he can to not mess up George's relationship with Leraine (past) so he can still exhist or otherwise he will dissapear. So Ulty can't kill Rinoa (if R=U). But Rinoa can kill her future.

Anyone has the power to destroy their future. Just break laws, or kill yourself

I forgot, why did ellone send rinoa back into time after fighting adel? I know it achieved time compression, but how is it achieved specifically?

And about Rinoa and Ultys faces not looking alike. Keyword is maturity. But its almost silly to use that as a reason R= or ≠U, even though I support R=U. Its still computer animation. Squall does have a resemblence of Laguna though, was that done on purpose? (if you dont know what im talking about, in the booklet for the game there is a pic of them both side by side)

When time becomes a loop... When time becomes a loop... When time becomes a loop...

The spell "life" doesn't bring a character back from the dead, it revives them from KO. If all characters are KO'd, I guess whatever defeated you can pretty much do whatever they want, including killing you. If you lose to Ultimecia, my THEORY is that she would kill all of you, including Rinoa, and defeat herself. Naturally, you wouldn't be able to see, but wouldn't you still technically win?

Noooo, ;)
They would be slaves for eternity like she said.

ok, clearly ultimecia is not rinoa or she would recognise herself and squall and not talk like an idoilt (zeeds curze all zeeds, horrible voice). clearly she is an offspring/great offspring etc of squall and rinoa.

i know it seems possible since she could obviously only kill her younger self and still exist in time if time itself was compressed and screwed and became part of her. but just because rinoa was the last sorceress doesnt mean she cant have kids! what is the big debate about?

of course ff8 would have had a far better story if this was true, but alas, its not

If you have ZERO health points then you have no health, if you have no health your dead correct?

Im sure if Real life was FInal fantasy i would have about 200 life points and my great grandmother has 0

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Originally Posted by TasteyPies

If you have ZERO health points then you have no health, if you have no health your dead correct?

Im sure if Real life was FInal fantasy i would have about 200 life points and my great grandmother has 0

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No, you're knocked out. If death were like it was in battle, then (SPOILER)Aeris and General Leo and whatnot could be brought back to life. The whole concept of hit points is not relevant to the real world, because if you get stabbed in the gut it doesnt take '50 hp', it freaking kills you. If Phoenix Downs and Life spells actually restored life, no one in FF would ever die, right?

aeris2001x2 have you read the theory? Rinoa doesn't recognise herself because she loses her mind, I personally think the magic has this effect after a while, hence Adel and Ultimecia. This is backed up by Edea's talk about knights and so on.

TheAbominatrix it might be worth pointing out thats not an FFVIII spoiler tagged in your post.

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Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

No, you're knocked out. If death were like it was in battle, then (SPOILER)Aeris and General Leo and whatnot could be brought back to life. The whole concept of hit points is not relevant to the real world, because if you get stabbed in the gut it doesnt take '50 hp', it freaking kills you. If Phoenix Downs and Life spells actually restored life, no one in FF would ever die, right?

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If the life spell doesnt give life then isnt that kind of a stupid name for the spell?

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Originally Posted by Ansem

1.) Why is Griever the GF of Squall's ring in the present, yet only usable by Ultemecia years later. (the ring probably would've decomposed by then)

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Decomposed? O.o; If it's a good quality ring and it's well-kept, would it really do that? My great-grandma had a metal wedding ring that was at least 70 years old, but it didn't look worn at all.

Now about the actual QUESTION. XD; Well, maybe it's just because Squall's not a sorceress? For all we know, the ring could've had some sort of seal, needed a certain spell, or Griever might not've been in the ring at all. The ring could've just inspired her to name this great powerful GF she stumbled upon Griever, especially since there is a bit of a resemblance there. Who knows? It's all speculation. I'm still thinking it has something to do with Squall not being a sorceress though.

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Originally Posted by Ansem

2.) Ultimecia is killed at the end. If R=U, then U=R, then Rinoa would've died simultaneously. I know Squall sees her vanish in the end but they meet once more for the "Squall Smiling' scene.

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Wouldn't work that way. Changing the past may effect the future, but what's in the future has already taken place and can't change the past. Killing your future self wouldn't kill you (though you'd probably want to keep an eye out for yourself after that so you don't kill yourself -- brain...melting...). But doing something to the future wouldn't immediately effect the past until that past is the future. I think. Dern time travel.

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Originally Posted by Ansem

3.) Rinoa gets Edea's sorceress powers yet never accepts them. Edea says that she accepted her powers from a sorceress when she was young. So, how exactly are powers passed?

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Maybe it's because Rinoa didn't accept them and no one else had the potential to accept that that she went into the comatose state for so long? I dunno.

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Originally Posted by DJzen

Hmmm.... If R=U, then let's ask ourselves why you don't automatically win if Rinoa is defeated in battle against Ultimecia?

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Because she's not killed, she's knocked out. After awhile if you leave a character knocked out they might dissolve, but it says they dissapear into the time compression and then they come back later just fine when Ulty's defeated, right? Or something close to that? X.x;;

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Originally Posted by HanaKirei

Because she's not killed, she's knocked out. After awhile if you leave a character knocked out they might dissolve, but it says they dissapear into the time compression and then they come back later just fine when Ulty's defeated, right? Or something close to that? X.x;;

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Besides that wouldnt fit the storyline and game over would pop up anyway, if it doesnt fit the stroyline your dead, other FF have done that before as well, something realy WOULDNT mean the end but it does because it doesnt fit the story, cant remember an exact occurance though....

but it happens whenever you do something that doesnt fit the plot at that time and it would reveal a spoiler if it actualy let you get away with it...i think

And if 1 person understands this post i have done my duety

Well I've always thought that Ultimecia was the bad sorceress and she wanted to take over the world by possessing other sorceresses and Rinoa was a sorceress just like Adel.

So Ultimecia only wanted to possess Rinoa (but she is in her mind and so with that she can control her body!) to free Adel, to possess Adel and then kill the SeeDs to have the free way to take over the world!

About Elone for me it's not very acceptable that she is daughter of Rain or LAguna, 'coz I've always had this theory:

'Laguna liked Rain, right? So he gave her a ring, you see it at the end! But she had a sun, Squall. (Remember when Kiros/Laguna said at the Ragnorak that, he was like her mother. So I don't think that (although there isn't any prove) Elone and Squall have just a very strong affect for each other just because they were at the orphanage and he just saw her as a model, as a sister.'

MAybe this will sound horrible but this is in what I believe.

Hey peoples! Ok...read all ya posts, now can you help me out here about. Is Ultimecia a offspring/great offspring etc of squall and rinoa? Seeing Rinoa is a sorceress...would that mean...because ultimecia is offspring/great offspring etc of squall and rinoa...yet ultimecia is from the future who possessed edea, who gave her sorceress powers to Rinoa...and then squall and rinoa go to ultimecias time to kill ultimecia whom is there offspring/great offspring?
So it's like one HUGE giant circle! Ultimecia possess people in the past to achieve time compression..but for what reason?
She "makes" rinoa a sorceress by squall and co defeating edea and edea passing on her powers. Ultimecia is a offspring/great offspring etc of squall and rinoa, which means...Ultimecia..made Rinoa a sorceress when ultimecia is offspring/great offspring etc of squall and rinoa, which means squall and rinoa "created ultimecia".

So if you can understand that...am I right? And does any of that make ANY sense :P

PS does that mean...like squall and rinoa have kids an get married ;) Nice thought :D AWWW sweet as!!!

So in actaul fact Squall and Rinoa and co have to go to the future to kill there great offspring ultimecia, so she cannot make possess people in Squall and co. time.

And the reason Ultimecia goes back to Squall time is because she knows Ellone exsists in that time. Sorry I forgot what Ellone can do oops :P
But yea..so I guess thats the whole reason for going to that time and possessing SPOILER! Edea, Adel and Rinoa, to find Ellone and oh! Achieve time compression.

And no one can die or vanish at the end, coz if Ultimecia is Squall and Rinoas great offsoring in the future, no one can die...coz then if they do Squall and Rinoa could never have kids!

Edit by Yamaneko: Please don't double, triple, quadruple post. Use the edit/delete button to edit your posts.

Lol rusty why did you make 4 posts?

Because I kept on thinking of stuff after i posted! Anyways what do you guys think of my theory? Anyways I am going to post my theory in a new post!

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Originally Posted by TasteyPies

If the life spell doesnt give life then isnt that kind of a stupid name for the spell?

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Well I didnt name it. They chose to name it that, for one reason or another. If the spell gave life, a lot of important FF characters would still be alive. It does not ever bring anyone back to life. Even if you look at someone's status after they've been downed in battle, it never says 'dead'. It says 'K.O.' or 'swooned' or whatever.

Think about it in terms of Street Fighter. If you beat the living crap out of someone, they lose all their health points and fall to the ground. But they're still there for the rematch and it still says 'K.O.' in big bold letters. Knock out, not death.

And I wont even touch the rest of the posts.

I need to dig through the staff forum and find that no R=U threads rule that I'm sure is in there somewhere. And once I do *shakes fist*

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Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

Well I didnt name it. They chose to name it that, for one reason or another. If the spell gave life, a lot of important FF characters would still be alive. It does not ever bring anyone back to life. Even if you look at someone's status after they've been downed in battle, it never says 'dead'. It says 'K.O.' or 'swooned' or whatever.

Think about it in terms of Street Fighter. If you beat the living crap out of someone, they lose all their health points and fall to the ground. But they're still there for the rematch and it still says 'K.O.' in big bold letters. Knock out, not death.

And I wont even touch the rest of the posts.

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Hmmm... that reminds me, I have a theory on that sort of stuff *runs off to GFF*

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAsh

aeris2001x2 have you read the theory? Rinoa doesn't recognise herself because she loses her mind, I personally think the magic has this effect after a while, hence Adel and Ultimecia. This is backed up by Edea's talk about knights and so on.

TheAbominatrix it might be worth pointing out thats not an FFVIII spoiler tagged in your post.

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i,ve read it enough to drive me insane. a genuine question, is there proof that ultimecia loses her mind? is that all the theory is based on? we dont really know if the magic drives them insane. wasnt there a mention of sum good sorceress's? my memory on ff8 is hazy being over 3 years ago since i last touched it.

but the only revelatory stuff i remember reading is proof that ellone is raine(sp) and her previous lovers child and squall is laguna and raines child, nothing to do with ultimecia background. could u please let me know which disc and where this evidence exists cause i WOULD LOVE 2 believe this theory but...

also do u really think the writers know? i mean didnt the writers write ff8's story in a few seconds during breakfast? i really dont think ff8 story is that developed.

I personally don't care if the writers know, they might, but we can't really know.

The evidence of sorceresses losing their minds (or turning evil at least), is a scene where Edea talks to Rinoa about her new powers. I can't remember if it's a bonus scene or not. Anyway she talks about sorceresses without a knight turning evil, and says she doesn't think Ultimecia has one (and neither does Adel). Edea had Cid, and Squall is supposed to be Rinoa's.

I'm almost certain Ellone isn't Raine's daughter. I've never seen it that relevant though apart from it making her Squall's half-sister if she were so I haven't looked into it much.

There've been a lot of threads arguing the Ellone point... and if I need to I'll go dig one up. Ellone is not Raine's child. Ellone's parents died during the war, and Raine and Laguna take care of her. She calls them by their first names and Laguna even 'talks' to a picture of her parents, who are dead. "Ellone's mom and dad, Ellone has been a very good girl today."

Obviously Laguna is crazy and he is talking to himself.

so rinoa has squall hence, she wont turn bad!

its so funny, i also diss this games story, but i still luv them.

Yes she does have Squall. Ultimecia lives in the future, and doesn't have a knight. The theory works on the principal that at some point Squall leaves the picture. This is my personal belief for Griever's presence, at some point Rinoa created it as a way to hang on to Squall.

well that would be cool but i still think ultimecia is an offspring/great offspring etc. how long can sorcereess live? wasnt adel very old? does it state how far in the future ultimecia is?

if r was u wouldn the game have made it far more apparant in the story to ensure it was not lost on ppl? i think the irony would have made it be far less hated. but yeah i guess it just comes to interpretation. plus i always viewed ultimecia as a sex starved **** with an annoying accent and i dont like to think of the contrast with rinoa. do the character graphics look famiular u think?

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Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

Well I didnt name it. They chose to name it that, for one reason or another.

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The Japanese name for the spell is "Raise". The English name is used simply out of tradition. In FF1, the characters weren't developed at all and one of them dying from a simple battle with Goblins wouldn't affect the plot one bit. The assumption in the first game is that when you lose all your HP you die. The spell LIFE brings that character back from the dead supposedly, even though it's an NES game and death isn't allowed in NES games. Now, why did they choose to translate the spell as LIFE? Well, in the NES version of FF1, spell names were only allowed to be 4 letters long, meaning we wound up with weird names like LIT, QAKE, AFIR, ZAP!, XXXX and NUKE. Raise is 5 letters, and although RISE would have probably worked just fine, the meaning of the name LIFE is a little more clear. They've been using it ever since just 'cause.

Anyway, anyone still interested in this subject should really read this: http://www.dman.orcon.net.nz/Site/Te.../rutheory.html and this: http://www.dman.orcon.net.nz/Site/Te...rutheory2.html

And a handy dandy .gif

Ultimecia is alot older and bonier so it took some time, alot of time

But we do know if R=U then Sorceress do age, slowly but they age

take matron for example

when she was tending to the kids she looked in her early 20s later she looks in her late 30s they DO age

Yea...

And i like how those Square people on that website about the R=U theory page 2, say they dont look alike, and noone mentions body and face maturity. Rinoa just had her babyfat still. Is there somethign about those eyes? Those pupils look like bells? and you see em on ulty, and edea. Can anyone see em on Rinoa?

How old was Rinoa? 18 or thereabouts? You lose your 'babyfat' in puberty at the latest.

And thanks for that explination DJzen. Awesome. :love:

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Originally Posted by celtcknight

i like how those Square people on that website about the R=U theory page 2, say they dont look alike, and noone mentions body and face maturity.

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Ultimecia's eyes are deeper set (it's not just her abusing the eyeliner, she has a more pronounced brow) and her nose is noticeably longer. That's what is meant by they don't look alike. Squall and Seifer would probably also look pretty similar if someone did the same thing with them.

Yeah cos Sorceresses don't change their appearance when they gain their powers do they? Adel and Ultimecia were obviously born looking like they do.
Judging anything based on appearance is a waste of time with this, character models were reused, and magic clearly deforms people so why bother?

What do you mean magic deforms people? Garden uses Paramagic (paramagic odd eh? called paramagic in the tutorial) and they arent "deformed"

Some sorceresses, like Adel, clearly used magic to alter their appearance... but that must've been a conscious choice, since other sorceresses don't share the same fate. Adel is huge and muscled, useful traits for a militaristic dictator. There are few reasons for why Ultimecia would magically extend her cheekbones.
So you can't really say "Rinoa and Ultimecia look different, this proves R=U!" :p

It's not suggested anywhere in the game that sorceresses don't age; as far as anything suggests, they're normal humans, but vested with exceptionally powerful magic abilities.

I was referring to sorceress magic, not the standard variety.

EDIT
*sees Big D's post*

Ultimecia looks different aswell as Adel, even after the short time Rinoa has the power, she still grows wings whenever she uses it.
I still maintain Edea looks a lot younger then she should, and even if she didn't, if you argue Adel learned how to change her appearance, why can't Rinoa extend her life?

because shes ditsy :D

Look, if you REALLY want to know, why don't you just get in touch with Square about it?

Like Square would be so honest with a bunch fanatics like us. As long as politicians can lie, so will corporate employees. Thats why were all here, to debate, gather evidence if it is possible or even true.

Did plastic surgery exist in FFVIII?

I have been looking in the movie clips after ripping the game, to see if there are any visual evidence to support R=U, like Ultys thrown is designed like edeas float and its shape is like the pupil in her eye (kinda like a bell?). I also mentioned earlier that in the ballroom, at the end, there is a naked girl as the centerpiece. You notice it when the room spins and rinoa dancing around. Could that symbolize something? Has anyone else noticed any kind of hidden symbols or graphics in the game?

Why would Square lie? They've got nothing to gain by lying about this... what you said made no sense at all. Politicians and coporations lie to make money... I see no way to gain money from lying to a bunch of people on the net about a Rinoa/Ulty conspiracy.

Sounds just like an excuse to disbelieve them if, one day, Square does come out and say 'Hey, guess what? Rinoa isnt Ultimecia, so shut up about it.'.

And, while I doubt Square would lie, I also doubt they'll take the time to give a conclusive answer. This theory at least keeps interest in the game, whether it's true or not. And, until Square gives a definitive yes or no, it will always and forever be a theory, never fact.

Besides, only those who were involved in the writing of the story will actually be able to help. I'm sure that Square-Enix has skilled and helpful helpdesk employees, but "video game plot minutiae" probably isn't in their job description.

It makes great sense Abominatrix, just because you personally don't see why, doesnt make it sensless.

Square has no obligation to answer us. It is easier to give a NO answer than waisting their time on people. There are no restrictions that obligate them to tell the truth. It is their product, and they can do what they please with it. One day R=U, next day E=U. Remember when mommy told you what you wanted to hear, or NO, so you would shut up about it.

If you think it is childish, it certainly is! But it still happens.

Corporations wouldn't expose ideas they may be patented. Motorola employees, for instance, are under contract that says any inventions or ideas they were to make would belong to Motorola.

As for politicians, they lie also for purposes of protection. You think they would answer a forum of curious people of the exact whereabouts of known terrorists in the country? NO.

These are just a few examples. Before you jump the gun, do some research.

Yes, because revealing that R=U is going to threaten SquareEnix security! Things will go insane! Internet people will ask even more questions... so many questions that it will overload the mainframe and the entire world will be destroyed!

Yes, it is their product. However, there's no reason to lie about it. May wanna lighten up on the conspiracy theories.

Edit: By the way, maybe I'd actually care about this conspiracy theory if you could prove to me Square Enix's policy, not Motorolas or the government or whatever. SquareEnix, a company that makes games, has no reason to lie about plot lines in one of their games. Nothing in your post refutes that. Nothing in your post has anything to do with that, in fact. The government and Motorola's patent issues are moot points.

Yea, you got it. Lose the sarcasm, and yea, that's basically it. Flooded questions, possibly exposing one of their next projects prematurely... etc. It would cause the company to lose money and overload the mainframe, cause a demand, (thats what killed pygmallion by the way) but I doubt it would blow up the world.

And these aren't theories. Join the military, your head will come out of the clouds, believe me ;)

Noting your Edit: Like Square... I dont have to waiste my more valuable time on you and what you think. Read carefully, I said patented ideas. It correlates with Square as well as Motorola. If I feel that you gain some incrament of importance in my life, like Square, i'll send you a Motorola application and papers of transportation of nuclear missiles through your neighborhood. :rolleyes2

I didnt say those were theories, I said the policy of SquareEnix was, for one. For two, I was in the military, but I've learned to look for evidence as opposed to assuming blindly that every company is out to lie.

Third, what flooded questions? If Square confirmed or denied the R=U theory, that would stop the constant barrage of emails asking for confirmation/denial. Fourth, if they had a project coming, they wouldnt give a yes or no answer, they simply wouldnt answer or give a form letter, which doesnt mean they're lying. They simply arent telling. Fifth, I'm pretty sure that it wouldnt effect any of the economics of Square, and sixth, there wont be any mainframe overloading from email. That's a completly seperate part of the company, and if their fanmail email section went down, it wouldnt be a financial loss.

Yes, you are right, denial or confirmation of R=U theories would end constant emalings, Im glad you're seeing my point here. They may decline from answering yes or no to avoid false hopes and also, a demand.

If their was a project and they dont give a yes or no answer, and they are bombarded with questions that...expose their project, what would they say?

My original comment was a generalized analogy with some direct relation to the R=U theory. If someone lies about one thing you wouldnt trust them much about another.

And since you were in the military, you also know about attention to detail. One slip up may be recoverable, but to avoid more in the future, policies are made. These deal with confidentiality...

Seeing your point? You keep swaying. First you said that confirming or denying would cause more emails and overload the system, now you're saying it would end them? Demand for what? More emails? That doesnt benefit nor hurt the company.

They'd answer with a form letter. Try emailing them. They always answer questions with form letters, as I've said about three times so far.

What have they lied about so far?

One slip of what? Obviously Square would have a policy on what questions would be answered. If the R=U theory was officially confirmed or denied, it would have to come from the official source, not leaked information, because that's just heresay and rumors. Not one employee coming forth and saying 'Hey, Rinoa is Ulty!', because that isnt official confirmation. This issue has nothing to do with confidentiality. If Square is going to confirm or deny, they will. If they do, it will be in pretty much every game magazine across the country. Simple.

What? no no no, first,
the whole flooding thing is sarcasm directed at your own sarcasm about flooding mainframes and blowing up the world.

Youre loosing me here, Square would be flooded right now with no answer. When they give an answer what ever it may be, truthful, or not, itll end it, it will shut everyone up. and it can be the truth or a lie in order to get some peace.

You said confirming would cause more emails,

"Yes, because revealing that R=U is going to threaten SquareEnix security! Things will go insane! Internet people will ask even more questions... so many questions that it will overload the mainframe and the entire world will be destroyed!"

I am making reference to a flood of questions exposing a premature idea that they dont want to discuss. So they could extinguish it with a big NO, if we were to be stumbling on their project.

So by answering the question with a NO, hey, it can be a no, or just a fib to shut us up so they dont have to dedicate their night to it like we are.

"If" that is the whole problem, if they do confirm it. They really haven't as far as Ive seen. I saw some remnants but not really credible as you described. Even if they did officially, it still may not be credible.

"One slip of what? Obviously Square would have a policy on what questions would be answered."

thats what I mean, square would make a policy of what questions were to be answered in order to avoid a slip in giving confidential info that they dot want released. I mean hell, an R=U would spark something big like you said.

Okay, just some crossed wires there. Apologies.

But anyway, my whole point stands; if they give a definitive answer, I highly doubt it will be a lie. There's nothing to be gained with a lie. But, ask away, all you'll get is a polite form letter.

So anyone maybe wanna talk about the topic again?

I e-mailed square about it and I got so re directed that I ended up at the 'EA' support center. They wouldnt even answer my question which is the smae that you all want to know with is if r =u.

But right now i am contolling the urge to voice my opinions..but im gonna keep quiet and let you all discuss your own opinions :D

Good luck :P

ok random thought I once read somewhere that a person who traveled back of forwards in time could not exist in the same location or come in to contact with them selves due to unknown reactions like possibly the end of the universe or so they think thus rendering time travel entirely risky if it were ever possible. Well following the R = U theories so popular with you lot if R = U and Rinoa and Ultimecia were to meet after time compression they would probably destroy the universe well I would like to annouce that Rinoa and Ultimecia meet and the universe doesn't end we know this by the ending therefore one must assume in the theory of a person could never directly interact with their future or past self Rinoa cannot be Ultimecia because they do and chances are some of us kicked Ultimecia's ass with Rinoa in the party actively hitting her when healings were not neccessary. Case Closed R = U = Impossible

Anything said about the time travel are only speculations, we won't know until somebody actually manages to do it. even if scientifics were able to determine that, games cannot be mixed with reality. If we can speak and interact with monsters even run into any monster at all, or talk to elixir hungry aliens we are talking about fantasies which is what this game is supposed to be. Case re-opened R = U = Possible

rusty_angel777 discussions are fairly dull if it's the same people revoicing their opinions over and over, feel free to jump in any time.

Fallen_angel_666 your point has already been fairly well argued against so I won't add anything.

*Looks suspisciously at names of those two posters*

777 is my lucky number actualy

But realy, why else would ultimecia summon griever if she didnt get it from squalls ring because she is rinoa? there needs to be a ff8-2

Time travel is tricky. There's a lot that Square didnt explain with time compression... a lot of it that should have been made a bit clearer. But time travel, seeing as it isnt anything that can actually be done (for now, at least) really depends on the authors/writers of the particular peice. I've read a few books that speculate that you can only travel forward in time, not backwards, to avoid creating paradoxes in your own existance.

It's certainly possible that Ulty got Greiver elsewhere... that Greiver already existed, and Squall's ring was designed and named after something that already existed. Or many other possibilities... or simple coincidence. Or that she's Rinoa. I don't think an VIII-2 would be very useful, seeing as everything but R=U was answered in the game... but it'd be nice to know, conclusively.

commenting on fallen_angel_666

If time travel is risky in that matter inwhich you spoke, Ulty would prolly avoid time travel and compression altogether if it meant an apparadox, and the end of the universe, end of her.

Its like "since she did it I guess its possible" sort of thing. Their are theories that say you can meet your future and past and interact as much as you want and it cannot effect anything, otherwise you wouldnt be able to travel in time to begin with. And at the same time, you cant kill your past, like maybe the knife goes right through like a ghost. So it would be cool if rinoa alone could not defeat ulty in the end. But then again, who says you cant kill your future?

What abominatrix mentions is interesting. Ive heard of it somewhere also that you can forever travel in the future at any speed, but you cant turn back. Ive also heard you can go in the past but not as material. In other words, you can observe the past like a movie or in real life (looking at stars as they were millions of years ago, because of how slow light travels), but cant have any effect on it. Perhaps thats another reason ulty uses JME and ellone, to be able to affect what you can't affect in order to compress time.

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Originally Posted by TasteyPies

777 is my lucky number actualy

But realy, why else would ultimecia summon griever if she didnt get it from squalls ring because she is rinoa? there needs to be a ff8-2

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She says it's the most powerful GF; since she's the strongest sorceress, it'd make sense for her to seek out the shiniest toys. Squall, too, believes that Griever is the most powerful entity of its kind, hence his fascination.

D Squall never says that. Yes it says something similar when you scan, but it doesn't go anywhere near detail. Even if that was all true it proves nothing.
If Squall imagined a GF to be all powerful, and mentioned it to Rinoa (for some bizarre reason NOT at the time she asked specifically about it) then what's to stop her creating it based on what Squall said and not just based on the ring?

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D Squall never says that. Yes it says something similar when you scan, but it doesn't go anywhere near detail.

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"In Squall's mind, the strongest GF". That's what I'm basing this on. Unless, of course, the Scan spell is lying, it's logical to assume that Squall actually believes Griever to be the strongest.

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If Squall imagined a GF to be all powerful, and mentioned it to Rinoa (for some bizarre reason NOT at the time she asked specifically about it) then what's to stop her creating it based on what Squall said and not just based on the ring?

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Hmm. Nowhere does it actually even hint that GFs can be created, least of all conjured up from pitcures. The Scan info for Griever says that Ultimecia gave it the power to continue fighting without vanishing, but that's all. You're assuming a lot of things with no factual basis for them:

1. Squall makes up this winged lion monster in his mind and names it Griever

2. Squall makes a necklace and ring featuring his imaginary pet, then adds the symbol to his gunblade and gunblade case

3. Squall pretends that Griever is real, and then describes it to Rinoa in great detail.

4. Rinoa becomes Ultimecia, then decides it'd be cool to create a GF based on her former boyfriend's imaginary friend, and does so, deciding it'd also be cool if it was the most powerful GF.

Now, everything that's actually said in the game suggests that Griever is a real GF; not universally known, but existent. Ultimecia acquired it and used it. Now, I know what you'll say to this - that no-one else knows about Griever or mentions it, Squall never says to Rinoa that it's a GF, etc... but look at Odin: no-one ever mentions Odin, or sees him until they go to the Centra Ruins. But how does Seifer react to Odin?
"Odin? Hah, I won't go that easily, Squall!"
Clearly, he's aware of Odin's existence and capabilities; he's surprised by Odin's sudden appearance, but even in the heat of battle he recognises the GF. Yet no-one, Seifer included, ever mentions Odin and it's possible that some don't even know about his existence.

:D Your reasoning seems to be "eliminate the reasonably possible, then whatever remains, however outlandish, must be the truth"...

I think that we can get really confusing here... so let's

I say we bring the R=U theory togethor with the "all FFs = same world theory" (IS there an offical name for this?)

Then we could possibly assume that Squall is, himself, Griver. (FFX's Aeons)

Thoughts?

Hey, why don't we combine this with the other most annoying threads in the world? Rinoa as Ultimecia travels through time to Final Fantasy X where she fights Unicron, who upon being defeated, tells her that she can get the GF Griever from the winner of the fight between Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. The winner will then tell her the true definition of "Tech-House" which is the numeralogical password to unlock the GF from the Kabbalah.

I know how ya feel, this thread is annoying :D But amusing at the same time. Nuff said.

D I didn't assume any of the things on that list, I briefly offered some parts of them as an explanation for the Griever scan.

It never says GFs can be created, but it never says where they come from either. Some are stored in powerful monsters, lamps, jewellery (that requires strange unlocking techniques), and some simply wait around for someone to prove there worth. I'm not even sure it states Griever is a normal GF anyway though I can't remeber so it's not that important.

The Odin point was fair. Though if Rinoa had asked Squall what the horseman on his ring was, he may not have said "He's called Odin, I like people who ride horses."

I don't look for the most outlandish explanation, I look for the one that best explains the quite phenomenal amount of coincidences in the game.

OOC: as for fallen_angel_666 it's been my screen name for years and years and almost a decade now yikes I feel old!

on topic, hmm true, also I heard from several reliable sources including the offical square guides that Tiamat was a GF at one stage but Ultimecia changed him into a monster so possibly if she can turn a GF in to nothing more than a powerful monster she created Griever herself to put Squall off guard or something using Tiamats powers to "Create Griever"?

Ellone sent Squall and the rest of the group back in time to let Laguna see Raine for the last time, along with Squall actually having a family.

Other than that, I don't think that R=U theory is right. Just my opinion, of course!

Heres where the Odin point meets its doom.

Squall shouts "ODIN!!" after Odin is split in half. Seifer says "Odin? Hah, I won't go that easily, Squall!" Notice theres a question mark.

Seifer heard Squall shout Odins name and commented on it. Odin? (oh thats what you call it) Hah, i won't go that easily, Squall!"

It would have been nice to have real voices in order to get Seifers tone. Was he in awe that THE Odin tried to attack him, or was he like "stupid name 'odin,' for a gf pet."

It correlates with the griever ring naming. You can name Odin anything as well as the ring and seifer and ulty use it in the same way. If I name Odin with "rubber ducky," will Seifer know to call it rubber ducky at all, or only after hearing Squall shout "Rubber Ducky!!"

Actually, Odin cannot be re-named; also, Odin appears at will rather than being summoned like a conventional GF. There's nothing at all to suggest that Squall called the GF's name during that battle. Seifer's "I won't go that easily" implies knowledge of Odin's power - i.e. that he generally finishes any battle with the greatest of ease.[q=PhoenixAsh]It never says GFs can be created, but it never says where they come from either. Some are stored in powerful monsters, lamps, jewellery (that requires strange unlocking techniques), and some simply wait around for someone to prove there worth. I'm not even sure it states Griever is a normal GF anyway though I can't remeber so it's not that important.[/q]GF are described in the tutorial, and aspects of their existence can be inferred from circumstances in the game. They're magical spirits, but capable of maintaining a physical form. It's clear that they're living creatures, though. Doomtrain and Diablos aren't actually "stored" in items; Diablos dwells in another dimension, but can cross into this one periodically. Doomtrain appeared all around the world, in response to the presence of certain items. See the magazine on bizarre events... in both cases, items merely serve as the 'conduit' for accessing the GF. Other GFs appear to have played a role in peoples lives in the past; Odin has a throne in the Ruins, apparently one that's just his size. He's rather huge, so it appears to be a custom-built piece of furniture. Tonberry and Cactuar seem to have arisen from monsters.

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The Odin point was fair. Though if Rinoa had asked Squall what the horseman on his ring was, he may not have said "He's called Odin, I like people who ride horses."

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However, he might've said, "Horsemen are known for their fearless strength in battle"; this corresponds to what he said about lions. Rinoa then might ask him the character's name, and he'd reply. Squall never merely said "I like lions".

It's just very odd that Ultimecia would create Griever, "the most powerful HG", out of the memory of Squall or whatever, but then forget absolutely everything else relevant to the GF's existence. She clearly isn't senile; she knows what she's doing, but lacks any real knowledge of Squall and co. beyond what she saw during their possession. After all, when Edea was possessed, she tried to sacrifice Rinoa. Very stupid for Ultimecia to try to kill her 'younger self.'

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I don't look for the most outlandish explanation, I look for the one that best explains the quite phenomenal amount of coincidences in the game.

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'Phenomenal coincidences'? Try FFVII. (SPOILER)Cloud, as a young teen, admired Sephiroth and wanted to be more like him; similar to Squall's words about Griever. In the end, Cloud had to fight and defeat the man once considered 'the greatest'. Astonishing coincidence, or dramatic event? A 'weak' character having to overcome the supreme challenge, thereby proving his strength. Or else it could just be proof that Tifa and Jenova are the same person.:roll:

"Nothing that suggests he said that name..." It happened, I remember distinclty. Squall shouted his name (big words "Odin?!?!?" on screen) after being split in half by seifer. Then seifer goes into his Odin?... taunt.

Odin cannot be renamed...oops.

FFVII: (SPOILER) Everyone admired Sephiroth. Cloud didn't randomly get picked to fight him either, he had his home destroyed by him.

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However, he might've said, "Horsemen are known for their fearless strength in battle"; this corresponds to what he said about lions. Rinoa then might ask him the character's name, and he'd reply. Squall never merely said "I like lions".

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True, but it's still a lot less logical to say than "It's Odin, a legendry GF."

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It's just very odd that Ultimecia would create Griever, "the most powerful HG", out of the memory of Squall or whatever, but then forget absolutely everything else relevant to the GF's existence. She clearly isn't senile; she knows what she's doing, but lacks any real knowledge of Squall and co. beyond what she saw during their possession. After all, when Edea was possessed, she tried to sacrifice Rinoa. Very stupid for Ultimecia to try to kill her 'younger self.'

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Why? Powerful magic forces DO drain your memory in FFVIII, that's fact. Even if it wasn't the sorceress magic then Griever is still close enough to a GF to probably have a similar effect, and this is after a long time.

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Originally Posted by celtcknight

"Nothing that suggests he said that name..." It happened, I remember distinclty. Squall shouted his name (big words "Odin?!?!?" on screen) after being split in half by seifer. Then seifer goes into his Odin?... taunt.

Odin cannot be renamed...oops.

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Hmm? Seifer said "Odin!? Hah, I'm not about to go that easy, Squall!" I don't recall Squall personally saying anything.

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Why? Powerful magic forces DO drain your memory in FFVIII, that's fact. Even if it wasn't the sorceress magic then Griever is still close enough to a GF to probably have a similar effect, and this is after a long time.

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I know... what I'm saying is that this amnesia has to be very selective in order to substantiate this theory, i.e. Ultimecia lost all knowledge of her past identity and dreams and desires, but retained full cognisance of Griever's significance to Squall, and a knowledge of certain details about past events and people. Just enough to make R=U tenable, but everything else - including key stuff like who she is - was lost.
All we know about GF exposure is that it temporarily suppresses long-term memories, but those memories can return, given the proper stimuli. The basketball court scene proves this.

You guys need to get out more. Your making my head spin :D

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Originally Posted by Big D

Hmm? Seifer said "Odin!? Hah, I'm not about to go that easy, Squall!" I don't recall Squall personally saying anything.

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Observe Please.

Now we see that Seifer doesn't even say his name and therefore raises some question whether Seifer even knows of Odin.

The point about Seifer knowing something of Odin's prowess remains.

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Originally Posted by DJzen

The point about Seifer knowing something of Odin's prowess remains.

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It proves that any more ideas whether seifer knows anything of Odin or not will now be relied only on "what ifs" and hypothesis wit no support from the game. Seifer never says his name nor gives any proof that he knows of him, only that this GF that squall summoned was weak to him.

D I don't think Rinoa created Griever after losing her memory. More likely after Squall's death, or (more abstractly) from Squall in some way.

The foreshadowing and Squall being Rinoa's knight just make it seem odd that Ultimecia's "knight" just happens to be representative of Squall.

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Originally Posted by celtcknight

It proves that any more ideas whether seifer knows anything of Odin or not will now be relied only on "what ifs" and hypothesis wit no support from the game.

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You mean like the R=U theory? :D

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Originally Posted by DJzen

You mean like the R=U theory? :D

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R=U has more remnants or hints throughout the game than the one small fact or not whether Seifer knows of Odins existence. It was all in 10 second clip that gave birth to the what ifs.

Squall mentions (or makes up) a name for a ring with a lion on it privately to Rinoa. Rinoa is a sorceress. Rinoa and squall are a couple. Name of ring is given to a lion GF in the future. Ultimecia is corrupt because she has no knight. Ultimecia wants to compress time...for some reason unknown. Those are facts in the game that can support R=U versus the no facts that Seifer knows Odin.

L+R=S wasn't literally proven. But it was obvious. R=U has a better relation with L+R=S than Seifer knowing Odin.

Lighten up, bro, it was a joke. I don't know why anyone takes anything I say seriously, just look at my sig fer crissakes.

I'm cool,
its hard to tell sometimes. You know you cant interpret sarcasm or tone with smiley and typing all that well (just like the game). Im not trying to be a hard ass here.

If you read way up there, someone got me somewhat frustrated over that issue. I'm sure there are things you know most about and theres someone out to just prove you wrong and not just accept that they were wrong in the first place.

I just wanted to make a commentary on the wings.

I think they're just symbols of great power. Rinoa's are white because she represents purity and things that are right in the world. Ultimecia's are black because she represents the opposite. I think the only connection there is the fact that they both have the ability to weild formidable magic.

I agree with you there fire :)

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

I think the only connection there is the fact that they both have the ability to weild formidable magic.

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Also, the powers that Rinoa wields include the powers that Edea got from Ultimecia. They'll go full circle - sometime before Rinoa dies, she'll pass on her abilities to someone else, and so on down through the generations, till eventually Ultimecia inherits them. This is what is stated in the game, that the future sorceress is "many generations ahead of our time" where "none of us can...exist".
R=U is totally dependent on the idea - never even hinted at in the game - that sorceresses can overcome the age-barrier. The only evidence for this is the fact that Edea still looks pretty at the end; however, this is an FF - everyone looks pretty even if they've just been through war and hell, shot, stabbed and frazzled with magic. Nothing ever messes up their hair and skin, including age. See Cid's shiny locks in the ending FMV if you desire proof:cool:

I dont think the R=U theory is correct.....so are you saying Big D that buy the quote that the future sorceress is "many generations ahead of our time" where "none of us can...exist". So saying that doesn't that kinda confirm that the R=U theory is not correct? Because Rinoa cannot exsist in Ultimecias time either?

And if R=U is correct (which its not) wouldn't they have made it completly obvious in the game? That would have been the main point of the game..but its not...the main point is to kill Ultimecia and if Rinoa was Ultimecia...then they would be killing her future self and if you kill your future you can not technically exsist in the first place.

Killing your future self effects nothing. We all die in the future, but we still exist in the present, and in the past. It's only if Ultimecia killed Rinoa (and was Rinoa, of course) that it would cause a paradox. If you go into the past to kill yourself, then you died in the past... then how did you live in the future to go back and kill yourself?

If Rinoa was Ultimecia, Rinoa killing Ultimecia would do nothing weird.

IF Rinoa was Ultimecia :P But she isn't.

I never said she was. All I said was the way you debunked it was incorrect.

Yea I kno...just thinking out loud :P

rusty_angel777 will you please stop just repeating that it's incorrect without giving any reasons, it's not really adding much to the debate.

D Edea says "OUR time", that just refers to the time for the group at that point, not that she knows noone from the present is in the future. She says none of them can exist, but obviously Ultimecia can, and Ultimecia has to be someone, so it doesn't disqualify Rinoa.

Ultimecia lives on her own, in a world where towns are inpenetrable, she built a floating castle, has teleporting gates, has the ability to alter GF abilities (admittedly not an uncommon trait), has magic noone else has, and her looks, name and accent have almost certainly changed at some point. Given she has to have done this in the part of her life AFTER gaining her powers, and has an obviously fixation with controlling time, why is it such a huge leap that she worked out how to live longer than humans?

The funny thing is, Ulty didn't compress all of time. She can only bend the time that JME and ellone can work with, from Adels childhood to Ultys present time. This all incorporates squalls life time. Otherwise she wouldnt need Ellone to bend all of time, just JME.

Along with the Squalls time of buidlings, we should eb able to see the old centra civilizations and the new ones in ultys time.

So there is some importance as to why she wants to bend that bit of time. possibly because of Squall? Her past?

Also, how the hell did she find out about Ellone? Thats a big one.

Nice observation with the altering of GF magic and accent (Kurse Seeds).

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The funny thing is, Ulty didn't compress all of time. She can only bend the time that JME and ellone can work with, from Adels childhood to Ultys present time. This all incorporates squalls life time. Otherwise she wouldnt need Ellone to bend all of time, just JME.

Along with the Squalls time of buidlings, we should eb able to see the old centra civilizations and the new ones in ultys time.

So there is some importance as to why she wants to bend that bit of time. possibly because of Squall? Her past?

Also, how the hell did she find out about Ellone? Thats a big one.

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She began to compress time, but didn't get there completely. The SeeD team was able to move forward through time after the compression began; they had to allow the process to begin. However, they were able to stop Ultimecia before she could complete the process. She wasn't compressing just the time period encompassed by Squall's life, but rather all of time. However, in order to do so, the time compression magic had to be used at two different points, as far apart as possible. The JME didn't have enough 'range' to do so; she had to get Ellone to take back a few more decades, into the young Adel, in order to set things in motion. She knew about Ellone because of the machine - she researched and learned how and why it was invented, at least that's what Odine postulates. You can't see all of the world's history in the 'compressed future' because that hasn't all been compressed together at that point. By compressing time, Ultimecia would be able to absorb the power from all sorceresses throughout history and become somewhat god-like; that was her goal.[q=PhoenixAsh]her looks, name and accent have almost certainly changed at some point.[/q]Well, that's starting from the assumption that R=U. It's possible that Ultimecia is somebody completely unrelated, and always had an odd accent (dialects do change over time), and gave herself tattoos when she decided to become evil. Adel, we know has an altered appearance; but with Ultimecia this is by no means certain.

If you suggest that Ultimecia knows about JME because she remembers the past, then that kind of contradicts with the idea that she's completely forgotten Squall, and forgotten herself - the only reason for why she'd willingly try to sacrifice her younger self in Deling City. Either she's forgotten things, or she hasn't. It's kind of awkward if you've gotta draw up a check-list of "things she'd need to remember in order to back up R=U" and "things she'd have to forget in order to back up R=U".

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Originally Posted by Big D

However, in order to do so, the time compression magic had to be used at two different points, as far apart as possible. The JME didn't have enough 'range' to do so; she had to get Ellone to take back a few more decades, into the young Adel, in order to set things in motion.

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Couldn't she have just done that with JME?

2 points farthest apart could have been her present and the limit of JME. after it were to compress, she can then use JME to take the next step. Ellone was simply a further point that led her to her doom pretty much. Why wouldnt she have just settled with JME limits instead of waisting her time in squalls world.

Was Ulty wanting to use Ellone throughout this entire process of collecting generations?

Its funny, with JME she could have did it just less efficiently and saved herself from all that work of embodyment. Its not liek it would have taken more time, its bending time so it wouldn't make a difference if She were impatient. Could there be another reason for using Ellone?

D I didn't start from R=U at all with those assumptions. I started with the unlikelyhood of someone being named Ultimecia at birth, along with being huge and having facial markings.

Ultimecia HAD to come from somewhere, she HAD to have had a lot of abilities that aren't shown in the game, and she HAD to have gone through all of these changes and aquired a castle and Griever through some means which probably took a long time. How any of this is done is not explained in the game, R=U is just a way to connect the present and future in a way that explains a lot of coincidences along the way.

Seriously..if Rinoa was Ultimecia then that game would have made it obvious. I didn't even think of r=u till I came on here. Because the game to me shows nothing that says "so rinoa is ultimecia?". Like I said before it would have been the main point of the game. But the point is to defeat her so she cannot compress time.

There lots of theories about why certain things happen in the game and LOTS of what if's.

Somebody e-mail square soft and clear this up..before someone gets hurt :D

Now!

No one's stopping you from emailing Square, ya know. And as I've said before, you'll probably get a form letter.

"Dear valued customer,

Thank you for your interest in our product. However we can not answer your questions at this time. Blah blah blah blah blah.

Sincerly, SquareEnix"

Besides as I've said before (as did someone else I think) who cares what Square say? They made FFVIII as it is, it's now free to interpretation as far as I'm concerned. If there's a gap to be filled I'll fill it with whatever I think makes the most sense.

As for making it obvious, I think Griever is a big enough hint to at least stop and question Ultimecia's relation to the rest of the game.

Well I'd like to hear what Square has to say about it, if they'd give us a straight-forward answer on it. I think a lot of people would care what they have to say about it.

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Originally Posted by celtcknight

Couldn't she have just done that with JME?

2 points farthest apart could have been her present and the limit of JME. after it were to compress, she can then use JME to take the next step. Ellone was simply a further point that led her to her doom pretty much. Why wouldnt she have just settled with JME limits instead of waisting her time in squalls world.

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Nope. The JME limit wasn't far enough, time compression simply wouldn't have worked. She had to go back further; Ellone was the only way to achieve this.

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Its funny, with JME she could have did it just less efficiently and saved herself from all that work of embodyment. Its not liek it would have taken more time, its bending time so it wouldn't make a difference if She were impatient. Could there be another reason for using Ellone?

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Again, the JME is limited. It couldn't take her far back enough to use the time compression spell; and she can't just compress time 'piece by piece'. It's an all-or-nothing venture, like most FF-nemesis' grand plans. Without Ellone, Ultimecia couldn't take her mind far enough into the past in order to instigate time compression. This is explained in the game, so it's not merely my own conjecture. [q=PhoenixAsh]As for making it obvious, I think Griever is a big enough hint to at least stop and question Ultimecia's relation to the rest of the game.[/q]Or, to be cynical, the answer could simply be "Squall believes Griever is the most powerful GF; turns out he was right". [q=TheAbominatrix]No one's stopping you from emailing Square, ya know. And as I've said before, you'll probably get a form letter.

"Dear valued customer,

Thank you for your interest in our product. However we can not answer your questions at this time. Blah blah blah blah blah.

Sincerly, SquareEnix"[/q]That's probably how it would go. The only people who could answer this question conclusively would be the game's writers, who are busy, wealthy and probably working on a project all the time. It's highly unlikely that a help-desk technician would have the authority to hire a translator to relay a fan's inquiry to a very busy man.
Now, the writers might choose to give some answers, they might not... I guess we're all free to conjecture in whatever way we want, for whatever reasons.

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Originally Posted by celtcknight

I'm sure there are things you know most about and theres someone out to just prove you wrong and not just accept that they were wrong in the first place.

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Yeah, about that.... The only people who really can say one way or the other are the people who wrote the story. I have an opinion, but I don't know for sure, and I think it'd be better if we all realized that. Now, I can say that I read that Square has said that Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia, I can even give you the URL of the place I read it, but it's still not the same as hearing it from the source. Know what I mean?

I know what you mean, Ive read it also. i had another late night argument/debate with abominatrix talking about what Big D said pretty much, just more bold, about how they might just lie to get us fanatics off their back...etc.

I guess Im still not understanding the whole time compression process.

If JME was too limited and Ulty had to compress time in one spell, and therefore had to use Ellone to reach Adels childhood, isnt that still only a piece of time and another limit? In order for Ulty to get all of time compression, she would need someone who could send one back as far the beginning of the Universe. Ellone had limits also. I understand the game explains some of this, however doesn't anyone see a contradiction here?

If you can't compress time say with a 10 minute window (JME), whats the difference between a 6 generation window (Ellone) when youre dealing with ALL of time that contains >1000000 generations? She would either need to jump to the beginning of the universe (not mentioned in game), or compress time piece by piece.

Ulty says at the end, you guys were in the brink of that time Kompression, like its a working process as D stated earlier. It sounds like it was still in the works by compressing piece by piece. If time compressed all at once, it would have happened in a split second.

In order to compress all time, the time compression spell needed to encompass a significant portion of time. It's not just the interval that gets compressed, but everything else besides. However, if the interval isn't big enough, there's not enough energy/distance/whatever to get the process going. It's like push-starting a car:
You can't push a car at 60mph, but once you get it started, it can reach that speed under its own power. Like time compression. Also, you can't push a car just by using one arm; you need a bigger force, just like the 'interval' defining how far Ultimecia had to go back, to set things in motion.
Also, I don't believe that time compression affected the entire universe, since such an effect would be infinite and therefore impossible. I reckon that time compression affected 'the world' only; the effects were confined to a select area of space. After all, her objective was to absorb the power of every other sorceress, not to absorb the universe as a whole. This is just what I believe, based on certain things in the game...

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I know what you mean, Ive read it also. i had another late night argument/debate with abominatrix talking about what Big D said pretty much, just more bold, about how they might just lie to get us fanatics off their back...etc.

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Zen question: :"If the writers make up an answer, can it really be wrong?"

It can be wrong in theory...but in fact it cant.

Asking square for the answer and that answer's reliability would be like asking tabacco companies if their product causes cancer.

The writers can tell the actual truth, but what are our chances of getting a hold of the think tank and not just a busy secretary or other official of square.

To answer this question would actually require like an investigation like them tobacco companies.

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Originally Posted by Big D

Zen question: :"If the writers make up an answer, can it really be wrong?"

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No, and that's not very Zen :p

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Originally Posted by rusty_angel777

It can be wrong in theory...but in fact it cant.

I know I can e-mail square...cept I'm sure somelse can also :D Someone please e-mail them..and we can get this arguement finished :D

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If you want something done, do it yourself.

And I wont even get into arguing why a secretary or press rep would lie as opposed to giving the standard 'We're sorry, we cannot answer that question at this time' answer.

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Originally Posted by DocFrance

No, and that's not very Zen :p

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I agree but only because I didn't say it.

yea, square would lie or tell us they cant answer it, thats what i meant. And at times it can be taken both ways.

Dont get uspeset at me! I was only suggesting that someone e-mail them. Seeing as none of ya want to..then I'm gonna go ask them for answers aswell as reasons....
Just pray that they'll have the decency to answer me....

Why would square lie? Why the hec would they? Its not this is a big conspiricy...just a debate..that really needs finishing :P

They probably won't answer, many ff have an unclosed finish, which leads to the usage of the imagination. that's probably what they intend.

they make me so mad...they just redirected me to ea support..then said it was closed and shoved me somewhere else...

they are soo infuriating.

*Is confused as to why an intelligent debate has turned into an arguement over why people won't let us stop having to use our imagination*

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Originally Posted by rusty_angel777

they make me so mad...they just redirected me to ea support..then said it was closed and shoved me somewhere else...

they are soo infuriating.

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Gee, Why do you think that is?

I'm gonna have to agree with the whole "it's a videogame, not a conspiracy" thing. I mean seriously, why WOULDN'T they give a straight answer if directly asked?

Exactly! Thank you so much! I agree too.

*bangs head against wall*

Seriously if you care what Square has to say, go track down the writers and ask them. It might take you a long time but I guarentee it'll be faster than sitting here and discussing it until someone magically comes up with the ability to read minds. They know what they were thinking, we know what we think, that's as far as you'll get here.

Back on topic:

Big D I missed this last time:

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Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
As for making it obvious, I think Griever is a big enough hint to at least stop and question Ultimecia's relation to the rest of the game.

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Or, to be cynical, the answer could simply be "Squall believes Griever is the most powerful GF; turns out he was right".

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Do you really think they'd have made the last boss mean something so insignificant, and never actually mention it until the fight itself and only if you use scan? This isn't FFIX my friend :).
I know it's a simple explanation, and they can be best, but it's along the "it was all just a dream" levels of story endings.

To us the consumer, its a video game, that we play for abour 30 hours of our life and it dissapears in the back of the closet. The game is over.

To others (creators, writers, musicians, CG technicians) the videogame is a work of art. Right now its worth only the 30 dollars we bought it for. In the future maybe itll be worth something more for various reasons. It identifies a world like culture, music, entertainment...etc. Even picasso was unappreciated and his art work may have been found in hotels when he first started. People criticized him, bought his wok, looked at it, through it in a closet.

Asking the truth, secret or answer of FFVIII plot, R=U...etc. is like asking a magician how he/she does it. Its like asking what inspired Picasso to do cubism. We find that when we know the magic tricks, its not fun to watch anymore. The same would go if we found out Picasso's inspiration of cubism was by looking through a calidoscope.

That would be a reason square wouldnt spill the beans. Either it be by, "We cannot answer at this time" or a swift "No" (hmm lie?).

I wish I had the ability to read minds...*thinks*

Oh dear..this debate IS turning into a why square wont do this and...maybe we should let our imaginations run wild..set them free!

We should get back to the topic...

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Originally Posted by Lionheart Griever

Ellone sent Squall and the rest of the group back in time to let Laguna see Raine for the last time, along with Squall actually having a family.

Other than that, I don't think that R=U theory is right. Just my opinion, of course!

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*confuddled* I've been reading all the messages, up to this one, 99! And I think you're all mad! I don't think Ellone sent Laguna bakc in time-I think by opening time up, the past was changed-in time compression, beofre they all went back to their correct times, they were able to right wrongs that had happened-Laguna was able to change his past, so, in fact, he DID marry Raine. There is evidence for this-When ypou see Laguna give Raine the ring, he looks like he did in the flashbacks. But when you see him stanind alone in the feild, he has some grey hair!

Anyhoo.......the game made sense when I finished it! Don't think 'bout it too much! :)

EDIT: Ithought Ultimecia drew Greiver fromSquall. I read somewhere that Greiver is the embodyment of all Squall respects, so she uses it against him, kinda to be ironic.

[qq]I don't think Ellone sent Laguna bakc in time[/qq]She didn't send anyone back in time, except for Squall and his friends. They weren't really "sent back in time", either - just their minds were. She can send someone's consciousness into the brain of a person in the past, so that they can 'eavesdrop' on past events.[qq]Laguna was able to change his past, so, in fact, he DID marry Raine. There is evidence for this-When ypou see Laguna give Raine the ring, he looks like he did in the flashbacks. But when you see him stanind alone in the feild, he has some grey hair!
[/qq]That's a flashback. When he stood by Raine's grave, he thought back to when they married. After all, he was away for 17 years. He'd never have known that Raine died giving birth to their son... so seeing her grave for the first time would bring back all kinds of memories. Time compression ended when Squall etc got home; no-one travelled into the past because of it, since the compression wasn't complete. A small team were able to go into the future, but that was all.:cool:

Well said about Ulty actually drawing greiver from Squall. Funny if theres a secret that allows squall and party to use greiver

i really think R=U is posible and u should accept it too maybe its hard to prove but in the end its a posibility

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Originally Posted by rieler

i really think R=U is posible and u should accept it too maybe its hard to prove but in the end its a posibility

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Yes it is a possibility, but that doesnt make it fact. In the end, it's up to the individual to decide whether they believe in R=U or not.

i know its not a fact its an opinion and its true if you say the theory its true or not for u on ur own its true whatever u chose and cant be denied by anyone

I wrote a rather big paper on this issue some time ago, which can be found here:

http://www.script-tease.net/kristian/

Sadly, two of the time loop diagrams were messed up, but if anyone really wants to know what they should look like, let me know.

Oh, and what Ellone did can be called sending people back to the past.
Just because their bodies weren't sent back, doesn't mean they didn't have the same kind of influence.
Just think of what Ultimecia was able to do!

As I see it, the past was never changed, not by Ulti, not by Ellone. Ultimecia sent her consciousness in the past (possessed Edea/Adel) to fine Ellone and kill the SeeD that were destined t destroy her. (because think of it, since Ulti is from the future, she KNOWS Squall and company will fight and defeat her, they're heroes after all) That failed. Squall and company STILL defeated her.

Ellone's attempts were not to causeRaine to marry Laguna (hich had already happened) but to make sure Laguna wasn't gone when Squall was born and Raine died. She too failed.

Why? Because of fate. FFVIII doesn't work with' parallel universes and paradoxes' If you timetravel your timetravelling wll CAUSE your present. If Squall and such hadn't been sent back in time, Laguna and company might very well have ded. (Their presence with Guardian forces improves Laguna's fighting. Relmember that he says patrol should be easy because 'the faeries are here'?) So the reason Laguna's stor went as it went was because Squall was there. Ellone's time travel didn't change anything, because, in a twisty way, it had already been done all those years ago.

As for R=U... I support the theory, but I know discussing it may convince some people but is still an oppinion. But still, exchanging oppinions is FUN, no?

edit: Oh yeah, someone mentioned that if R=U, shouldn't U die as soon as R is dead when you lose? Answer: Yeah. Just like Squall should vansh into thin air if Laguna dies in the early flash backs if Squall si Laguna's son (and we all believe THAT don't we?). A game over causes temporal paradoxes, and as this game seems to go with the 'you CAN'T cause those' theory, that means that in the PROPER story, you CAN'T get a game over... but that would make for a sucky game.

edit 2: Hmmm, interesting page that. Put a lot of thought and work into this. Never even thought of he Mausoleum thing, though it's circumstantial. (I do hope I spelled that right)

The past does never change.

Ellone says you can't change the past, and it doesn't get more straight forward than that.

An unchanging line of time also provides a perfect explanation for all time travelling in the game and such.

Hi, You can go crazy searching who is ultimecia and you would never know, cause the story was writed with that porpuse... but I want to tell Ultimecia is Rinoa jaja. The intro makes sense, all that stuff of " I´ll be waiting for you". Have you noticed that the ending movie where Squall gets crazy , is created with the finallity of confuse, why does he Cry ?, why the ultimecia flash shots ?, why rinoa in front of a throne ?, and... Why the odd image of squall with a Hole for a face ??!!, that really shocks me and make me forget about the rinoa issue. Yeah, Squall should have died in the first CD and he realized that in the end, Rinoa in the space was another move to confuse, jejej, I would like to know what do you think about Squall hole-for-face. !

Truly, I think it would add a lot of excitement to FFVIII if the R=U theory was in fact true. That Squall hallucinating part first made me consider it, and creeped me out when Rinoa's face started turning into Ultimecia's.

Plus, so many facts point to it. I don't know where I heard this but sorceresses live longer right? So if Squall was to die in the line of duty or something like that, Rinoa would have hated living without Squall. Maybe that would drive her to "hating SEED", considering the reason he might die in the future, if that happens might be because of dying in SEED.

Eventually, when she lives without her friends as they leave the world as well may force her to go a little over the top. And, you know how GF's make you lose your memory, well, she might forget them up until the time of the final battle.

Also, I have read somewhere else that the placing of Ultimecia's castle may also be a point to the R=U theory. Considering that that is where Squall and Rinoa made that promise that if they ever get lost, they meet eachother over there.

Who knows? I wish it was true though. That way, Squall would have a reason to kill Rinoa/ :p

Rubedo: IF you want to read how one has come to the assumption that sorceresses are immortal/have prolonged life, you'll find that I cover it in the link I posted above.

I don't know if this has been said or not, and if it was, kindly point me to the page (I read some of page 1, but that's all).

Anyway, In Ultimecia's age, they made a machine that could let you control someone in the past, much like Ellone's special ability, and Ultimecia was using that maching to control Edea, right? Why, if Ultimecia was really Rinoa, would she have those lizards attack her?

Don't tell me "memory loss," because even those with amnesia remember what they look like, and Rinoa, at that time, was at the age were your body doesn't make too many dramatical changes until you get old and wrinkly. I still think Ultimecia is just some random sorceress who went crazy, or possibly Matron (that was her name, right? Edea's real name).

there are many posibilities and someone shiuld ask square the real answer.....

Then again, I could see how Rinoa could be Ultimecia. I remember how she asked Squall about his ring, and if it had a name. Either she is, or they had a daughter who went insane, and never liked her parents, so she killed her mother and transformed her father into a Gaurdian Force so she could use him for even more power.

Yes, that must be it! I figured it out! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!

*falls asleep*

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Originally Posted by Jolts

Then again, I could see how Rinoa could be Ultimecia. I remember how she asked Squall about his ring, and if it had a name. Either she is, or they had a daughter who went insane, and never liked her parents, so she killed her mother and transformed her father into a Gaurdian Force so she could use him for even more power.

Yes, that must be it! I figured it out! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!

*falls asleep*

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you never know mate that could happen in an FF world and hay it is one of the best ideas yet......lol :lol:

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Anyway, In Ultimecia's age, they made a machine that could let you control someone in the past, much like Ellone's special ability, and Ultimecia was using that maching to control Edea, right? Why, if Ultimecia was really Rinoa, would she have those lizards attack her?

Don't tell me "memory loss," because even those with amnesia remember what they look like, and Rinoa, at that time, was at the age were your body doesn't make too many dramatical changes until you get old and wrinkly. I still think Ultimecia is just some random sorceress who went crazy, or possibly Matron (that was her name, right? Edea's real name).

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http://www.script-tease.net/kristian/

PS: Edea was her real name, not MAtron, which is just a "nickname" like "mummy".
Also, Edea cannot be Ultimecia because at the end of the game Edea is not a sorceress, while Ultimecia is.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

http://www.script-tease.net/kristian/

PS: Edea was her real name, not MAtron, which is just a "nickname" like "mummy".
Also, Edea cannot be Ultimecia because at the end of the game Edea is not a sorceress, while Ultimecia is.

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excellent is all that somes that link up and i feal you mabe right.

Or how 'bout R=T=A=G=Y=U. Over many years, she shows her multiple personalities to help other people save their worlds. Then, her MPD gets the best of her, she goes insane, and wreaks havoc over time itself :radred:.

Okay, now I'm just waisting space here. I still say that anything's possible, and SquEnix is not going to give away the answer, as long as it keeps people occupied. Probably not even after people stop caring.

By the way, that whole thing would mean Rinoa = Terra = Aeris = Garnet = Yuna = Ultimecia (not in that particular order). I know there are the ones in other FF games, but I don't remember their names.

---EDIT---
Forgot about Garnet, sorry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jolts

Or how 'bout R=T=A=Y=U. Over many years, she shows her multiple personalities to help other people save their worlds. Then, her MPD gets the best of her, she goes insane, and wreaks havoc over time itself :radred:

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no theres a theory worth its weight in salt! thats a great idea, i realy like this one. i think where on to somthing! *run hands to gether expectantly*

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Originally Posted by Jolts

I don't know if this has been said or not, and if it was, kindly point me to the page (I read some of page 1, but that's all).

Anyway, In Ultimecia's age, they made a machine that could let you control someone in the past, much like Ellone's special ability, and Ultimecia was using that maching to control Edea, right? Why, if Ultimecia was really Rinoa, would she have those lizards attack her?

Don't tell me "memory loss," because even those with amnesia remember what they look like, and Rinoa, at that time, was at the age were your body doesn't make too many dramatical changes until you get old and wrinkly. I still think Ultimecia is just some random sorceress who went crazy, or possibly Matron (that was her name, right? Edea's real name).

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And what we're saying is indeed 'memory loss' And Rinoa was only what, 17, 18 years old. And Ultimecia is a few hundred years down the line (she's got a narrower face, white hair, she changed somewhat), so I think that's plenty for Ultimecia not to consider 'hey, this random girl might in fact be ME from the past.' I mean, it's not the first thing on your mind really.

Ultimecia is one of Squall and Rinoas progeny, that is what i believe.

Another Theory:
Griver is actually the mutated version of Angalo(sp cant rember thename) rinoa's pet dog.....

Angelo, just remember that his name is "angel" with an 'o'.
However, I don't see that happening...Angelo was a dog, Griever is a lion. If Rinoa/Ultimecia did that to the poor dog, then she deserves every bit of torture she gets!

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Originally Posted by Jolts

Angelo, just remember that his name is "angel" with an 'o'.
However, I don't see that happening...Angelo was a dog, Griever is a lion. If Rinoa/Ultimecia did that to the poor dog, then she deserves every bit of torture she gets!

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it was a joke :p

That little girl Squall saves from getting hit by a train...yeah, that's Ultimecia :lol:. If it wasn't a girl, then the girl that was with the little boy Squall saved.

By the way, that's a side-quest. I can't remember when it's available, but I've done it at least once.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

I wrote a rather big paper on this issue some time ago, which can be found here:

http://www.script-tease.net/kristian/

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Yes, you did. I will now do my iconoclastic thing:

"Consider also that Ultimecia is called "Artemisia" in some translations."

Which translations? This is the first I've heard of this. The only person I REALLY consider cannonical when it comes to names is the person who named the character, not "some translation".

"What is the opposite of dying in peace?"

Dying with unresolved issues. This is a theme that's fairly big in mythology throughout the world, and from what I've gathered, it's also fairly prevalent in Shinto, one of Japan's native religions. If you don't rest in peace, you become a ghost. This isn't a suggestion that the soceress has improper long life, it just means she'll be troubled in the afterlife.

"Hyne, the first sorceress"

Whawhowha? When does the game call Hyne a sorceress? Furthermore, Hyne by YOUR definitions of who he is CAN'T be a sorceress simply because he is identified as male by your document. Sorceress is the feminine form of the word "sorcerer", which is specifically masculine (there is no such thing as a neutral gender designation in English with the exception of the word "person"). Hyne CAN'T be the first sorceress.

"This entire argument shows that sorceress immortality is possible"

It'd be better to use the phrase "eternally long life" here. Mortiality means you CAN die. Immortality means you can NOT die. Sorceresses can clearly die. Lifespan isn't suggested at either way though.

"when combining the information from the Japanese version and the European version, you learn that Ultimecia actually "draws" Griever from Squall's mind there and then. So either Griever was a GF junctioned to Squall all along, or she created him there and then based on the images in Squall's head."

I have no criticism for this, actually. I just wanted more people to see it because it's not a well known thing, and is FIERCELY debated over.

"Several hundred years of insanity can twist a person quite drastically"

But in terms of overall facial structure? Facial structure doesn't change without reconstructive surgery. If you allow for that possibility, then Ultimecia could be ANYONE. Ultimecia could be a GUY if you want to allow for that.

"However, we know time compression is activated in "the far past""

IIRC, Time compression is Ultimecia compressing the time between her present (the future) and the past that can only be reached by Ellone. It's technically "activated" from the future, and less technically activated from both the past AND the future.

"Rinoa and Ultimecia stand next to each other meaning their bodies could not be considered one"

You need to watch the Back To The Future series, buddy.

"the event of the orphanage is in the past, and since she travels to it, timecompression cannot exist."

I doubt this has any bearing, but this point can be argued against simply by saying that the orphanage exists within compressed time, as it exists within the timeframe that time is compressed in.

On a final note, your explanation of the time loop was a monstrosity. I read it five times and couldn't understand it. If you did do a better job of it, I wouldn't mind seeing the "correct" version that you mentioned before. Feel free to PM me with it.

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Which translations? This is the first I've heard of this. The only person I REALLY consider cannonical when it comes to names is the person who named the character, not "some translation".

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The german one for instance. The spanish one too, I believe. Honestly, just Google Search "Artemisia Final Fantasy 8" and you can see for yourself what versions call her that.

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Dying with unresolved issues. This is a theme that's fairly big in mythology throughout the world, and from what I've gathered, it's also fairly prevalent in Shinto, one of Japan's native religions. If you don't rest in peace, you become a ghost. This isn't a suggestion that the soceress has improper long life, it just means she'll be troubled in the afterlife.

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Firstly, I have to remind that the sorceress lifespan doesn't rest solely on this line.

Secondly, I have recently learned that in the japanese version, it says "in order for a sorceress to die, she must first give up her powers".
No mention of "in peace".

And although this yet again does not prove sorceress long lifespan in itself, it can be coupled with the fact that Hyne was immortal/had really long lifespan to make a pretty good case for it.

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Whawhowha? When does the game call Hyne a sorceress? Furthermore, Hyne by YOUR definitions of who he is CAN'T be a sorceress simply because he is identified as male by your document. Sorceress is the feminine form of the word "sorcerer", which is specifically masculine (there is no such thing as a neutral gender designation in English with the exception of the word "person"). Hyne CAN'T be the first sorceress.

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Looks like you haven't been checking your Tutorial enough.
Here's a tip: next time you play FF8, check the information section in the tutorial, and read what it says about Hyne.
You might also want to check out what a certain White SeeD in the White SeeD ship tells some children.

I think you'll find that Hyne is in fact the first sorcerESS, and the following sorceresses have weaker version of his power(this would be another appropiate moment to remind you that Hyne certainly could live for a VERy long time).

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It'd be better to use the phrase "eternally long life" here. Mortiality means you CAN die. Immortality means you can NOT die. Sorceresses can clearly die. Lifespan isn't suggested at either way though.

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You're right there, and I'll try and have that edited, even though I make it clear that a sorceress CAN die.

As for lifespan, I've already mentioned that several times before.

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But in terms of overall facial structure? Facial structure doesn't change without reconstructive surgery. If you allow for that possibility, then Ultimecia could be ANYONE. Ultimecia could be a GUY if you want to allow for that.

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Oh come on, they don't look that different, even you must admit that.
And facial structure? Are there really so many striking differences?

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IIRC, Time compression is Ultimecia compressing the time between her present (the future) and the past that can only be reached by Ellone. It's technically "activated" from the future, and less technically activated from both the past AND the future.

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The game says time compression compresses "past present and future", and I personally don't see any reason for the game to mean limited amounts of it.

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You need to watch the Back To The Future series, buddy.

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No, you need to stop considering a film to be the absolute way time works and start paying more attention to the game, "buddy".

You see, if you watch the ending, Squall goes back in time to the orphanage. Who does he meet there? Edea, certainly, but also someone else. A little boy.
Oh, that's the young Squall.

Two Squalls from different times stand straight next to eachother.
If Rinoa were then Ultimecia, the same will apply. Rinoa and Ultimecia could stand next to eachother.

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I doubt this has any bearing, but this point can be argued against simply by saying that the orphanage exists within compressed time, as it exists within the timeframe that time is compressed in.

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Ok, the document needs updating, but only because I haven't included all the arguments backing up time compression ending.

If all events exist at the same point, including this orphanage event, how does one get from one to another? while the Orphanage scene happens, we should at the same time be seeing Edea explain to the party about Ultimecia, because that's in the same line of events.

Hence the orphanage scene must exist outside time compression.

Even more obviously, if time was compressed at that point, how could Squall and Co move at all?

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On a final note, your explanation of the time loop was a monstrosity. I read it five times and couldn't understand it. If you did do a better job of it, I wouldn't mind seeing the "correct" version that you mentioned before. Feel free to PM me with it.

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The corrected version only corrects two of the diagrams.I've attached it to this post.

Then please point out what you don't understand, and I'll explain it.

I do realize that section needs updating, because it's rather big, meaning ti could get kind of confusing, so I will try and make it simpler to understand.

All that lines trying to explain theories about time traveling are just so amazing that anybody can make an script for a movie from them. I´ll try to explain what I think about all this ( make an effort to understand my english ). My theory about time travel is short, You Can´t change past or future in this game , because it was already changed since the first time. The game story is like a full circle rounded, and there are several clues that nobody can´t change anything, is like destiny, let see. In the end of 1st cd you can see an stunning sequence in wich squall get hurt by Edea with an huge ice stick just in his chest , the game would be UNREAL if squall don´t die or mention this wound in the rest of the game , an he didn´t !, squall just wake up like he was in the warmest dream ever, to fight again like new, I Thought he Was dead !, I said " Aeris II ??" It can´t be possible they are killing the star !, but the reality is that He Can´t die !, because if he die, he can´t go where ultimecia is and kill her, so , ultimecia won´t back on time to give her powers to edea and edea don´t have porwers so... how squall die ?.
Rinoa CAN´T DIE , because she´s the main part of the circle created on time travel, the whole scene in the space is to prove that, and it´s all explained in the Squall-go-crazy FMV at the end. If Rinoa die in that space scene the whole would circle is broken !, If rinoa die in some point of the present, ultimecia dies in the future. lets say that rinoa is not ultimecia (only once), If rinoa die in the space, Squall future don´t change ?, She can´t because she was there in the fight with ultimecia, it was obligatory to keep the circle going without any change, the people who die was meant to die, and the two FMV of rinoa and Squall dying is to explain that. Ultimecia Can´t change anything cause she´s part of that crazy circle , she is like doing what she was meant to do, there´s no other choices, In the game is not mencioned, But , how many times Squall have tried to kill ultimecia , and stop her to pass her powers to edea ?, millions ?, why it just don´t change in one of those million times ? . rinoa can´t change the future, if she´s ultimecia, she can´t go back and save squall , Or not ?, Who save squall from that deadly attack ?, was rinoa traveling and changing things to keep squall alive ?, maybe . This idea came to me after realize that the main story of the game is not romance, is destiny ( check the meaning of Libery Fataly), where Ultimecia comes from ? , we don´t know, the only thing we know is that Rinoa and squall where meant to be involved in that circle, that´s all the information they gave to us, no more, I would like to read something like "Ultimecia was born in..." or "ultimecia came from...", god... she got to be rinoa , there are so many proof, but nobody knows except the guy who write the script, he must be laughing at us at this moment, maybe he doesn´t know either.

R=U has to be true but then again it just cant! Well here is what i think based on what all the other topics have discussed. Ok here we go...the quote and the pictures supporting the facts are all really cool and really throw me more towards believing it. But here is what i want to throw into the pot unless someone hasn't already. I think I remember when Cid was talking to the gang and he said that every sorcress should have its knight. Adel didn't have a knight and look what happened, she was evil. (It was something along those lines) Well Squall was Rinoas knight and like everyone says, if he died then she wouldn't have a knight to be by her side and thus making her go crazy like Adel? Also, when Ultemecia was controlling Edea, she chose Seifer as her knight............(dot dot dot) didn't Rinoa and Seifer have some sort of relationship together? She really did like Seifer, and she made him feel important when he was her knight....did she do this on purpose? Again sorry if I said anything wrong.

Actually, Sir Bahamut, that does make more sense now. Thanks.

Continued from another thread, it's more ontopic here:

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Just as Fire spells unleash a controlled amount of fire in a specified place, Time Compression affects space-time, causing a large amount of time to be drawn together into a single point in time. Ultimecia was trying to bring all of time, or at least a large portion of it, together so that she could absorb the powers of all sorceresses throughout history, but fortunately it didn't come to that. Time Compression is just a very powerful magic spell; but where the regular elemental and non-elemental spells manipulate matter and energy, Time Compression manipulates time. The spell has to be used in two different, distant points of time; if there is not enough intervening time encompassed by the initial casting, then then it won't be effective. The spell needs to work in two ways, by going into the past and into the future, in order to compress a sufficient amount of time.
Some of this is explained directly in the game, some of it is conjecture which fits the facts well enough for me.

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Firstly, I know what TC does in a nutshell. It compresses all of time into a single point.
It's like time being a film, consisting of an infite amount of slides.
TC is like putting all the slides on top of eachother and then shining a light through. The result would be one slide containing everything of all the other slides, complete chaos, where no one could live.

Do you agree with me that all of time is compressed? It seems most logical. After all, we are told that "past, present anbd future will be compressed", and "past present and future" seem to refer to the general terms, no?
Nothing implies that it should only compress a small amount, so I think it is safe to assume it means ALL of time.

We also know it was activated in the far past where Ultimecia is sent.
The reason for this is never revealed.
You speculate that she needed to be in two different positions, but why?
Your theory here implies that only a bit of the line of time is compressed. What makes you think only a small bit is compressed?
Also, yours says that you first need a big space in time between the two points you cast it at, then the spell reaches into the past and future. Is that the past of future of both events, or only the past of what we see as the past and vice versa?

Lots of speculation as you can see, and lots of unanswered questions. But the best is yet to come:

You see, Squall and Co get to Ultimecias world by travelling THROUGH time compression. Once they're out of it, they are in Ultimecias world.
It is made clear that TC has not been completed.

How does Squall and Co get to this place THROUGH TC when it lies OUTSIDE TC and TC hasn't been completed yet?
This is really a huge mystery.
To demonstrate:

A – B – C – D – E

B is when Ultimecia casts the spell. C is Squalls present. D is Ultimecias present (i.e. where you fight her), A is all events prior to B and E is all events following D.

This line is a bit impractical for making figures, so we’ll “simplify” it a bit.

A – B – C – D – E – F – G

D is where Ultimecia casts the spell. E is Squalls present. F is Ultimecias present. B and C are the mirrored events of E and F by D (meaning there’s the same distance between C and D, as there is between D and E and so on and so forth). A is all events prior to B, and G all events following F.
Now we have a much simpler line to deal with.

Firstly, one could say TC starts at the outer boundaries, and is pushed inwards like that:

A – B – C – D – E – F – G --> AB – C – D – E – FG --> ABC – D – EFG --> ABCDEFG = X(compressed time).

When E and F are connected, giving Squall access to Ultimecias time, they should for one be inside TC, and two, TC should be completed within a fraction of a second, considering how fast the rest of time was compressed. Even if it gets slower the closer to finish it gets, it should still be finished very soon after you arrive.
This contradicts the ingame facts.

Secondly, one could say TC starts inwards:

A – B – C – D – E – F – G --> A - B - CDE - F -G --> A - BCDEF - G -->
ABCDEFG = X.

Here, the problem of why TC is not yet finished is explained, as A and G consists of millions of years probably.
However, BCDEF is definitely part of TC, which contradicts that you should be outside of TC.

There aren't any other obvious pictures that spring to mind, so it all seems as if Square decided to go for Cool Factor over Logic, and make TC out to be something completely unexplainable(as made clear by Squall admitting to not understanding it).

[q=Sir Bahamut]We also know it was activated in the far past where Ultimecia is sent.
The reason for this is never revealed.
[/q]It's explained clearly by either Edea or Odine, Edea I believe. In order for the spell to take effect, it has to be activated at two different points in time, a certain distance apart. So, she activates it in her own time, then uses her machine and Ellone's power to go back as far as possible and use the spell again. Imagine time as being like a pond. Drop a stone in one point, and you get ripples. Those ripples won't reach the other side, though; they'll just reach the side they're closest to. So, you drop another stone - i.e; cast another spell - at the other side, which represents the past for this purpose. The ripples now extend across both sides of the pond; the spells' influence goes far enough to set off the cascade that'll make time compress. When a building's being demolished, two explosives can do the job, but not if they're in adjacent rooms. They need to be far enough apart that the entire structure is affected. That's my interpretation of how time compression works, based on the brief expanation given in the game.[q=Sir Bahamut]Do you agree with me that all of time is compressed? It seems most logical. After all, we are told that "past, present anbd future will be compressed", and "past present and future" seem to refer to the general terms, no?
Nothing implies that it should only compress a small amount, so I think it is safe to assume it means ALL of time.[/q]As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't make a big difference. However, time and space are infinite; so to compress all time in all places would take infinite energy, which is not possible. Even if it's "done by magic". Magic is a manipulation of energy, so it couldn't have that kind of effect. Ultimecia's goal is to absorb the power from every sorceress who ever lived; that's her reason for compressing time. It's also explained if you cast Scan on Ultiimecia at a particular point during the final battle. Thus, she'd need only to compress time around her world, going back far enough to encompass the entirety of human history, thus ensnaring every sorceress.

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You see, Squall and Co get to Ultimecias world by travelling THROUGH time compression. Once they're out of it, they are in Ultimecias world.
It is made clear that TC has not been completed.How does Squall and Co get to this place THROUGH TC when it lies OUTSIDE TC and TC hasn't been completed yet?
This is really a huge mystery.

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Once again, a clear explanation can be found through a combination of in-game facts and logical conjecture. The team are able to travel to the future while time is compressing, yes. They do that through their own willpower, controlling their passage the way they would a magic spell. Time compression is a form of magic, so this is perfectly logical. It's also consistent with Laguna's instructions. By traversing the beginnings of the compression, they reached Ultimecia's time - where she unleashed the time compression spell. It's possible that the effects of time compression get stronger in the past, and take a while to "catch up" to the future; this'd explain why reality was severely distorted in their own time, but things are slightly less abnormal in Ultimecia's time (NB: The Ragnarok airship and the CC group both moved through time and space, to a different place in the world, during time compression. There's clearly a bit of disruption to Ultimecia's world). But then, during the final battle, time compression progresses. The process is nearing completion when Ultimecia's in her final form; reality has almost entirely dissipated. It is undone when she is defeated and her control over the process is disrupted. Time then de-compresses, and history is largely restored, except for Squall's panic and indecisiveness temporarily returning him to an earlier point in time.

The process of time compression is not a "huge mystery", nor is it "completely unexplainable". Of course, if you choose not to believe a particular explanation, that's up to you. However, you'll accomplish nothing by playing games and then saying, "Haha! This makes no sense at all! It's not spelled out in the course of the game, and if anyone has a theory, I can just say that their theory's not in the game either! This proves that the game is stupid and makes no sense!"
Such thinking is pointless. A good story doesn't assume that the audience is stupid, that they need every detail spelled out monosyllabically. Conjecture, theory and personal opinion can add colour and detail, just like the R=U theory.

chaos: Now I am in total dillema. Both of you have a great argument that truly makes me confused... Even though I think that everything points to Rinoa being Ultemicia, I am now beginning to ponder on this ever so more...

Rubedo: Although, about the Griever argument, I have heard in many areas that Squall's ring is supposed to represent a GF, Griever, that already exists. Or was it made up from Squall's mind? Eh... who knows?

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It's explained clearly by either Edea or Odine, Edea I believe. In order for the spell to take effect, it has to be activated at two different points in time, a certain distance apart. So, she activates it in her own time, then uses her machine and Ellone's power to go back as far as possible and use the spell again. Imagine time as being like a pond. Drop a stone in one point, and you get ripples. Those ripples won't reach the other side, though; they'll just reach the side they're closest to. So, you drop another stone - i.e; cast another spell - at the other side, which represents the past for this purpose. The ripples now extend across both sides of the pond; the spells' influence goes far enough to set off the cascade that'll make time compress. When a building's being demolished, two explosives can do the job, but not if they're in adjacent rooms. They need to be far enough apart that the entire structure is affected. That's my interpretation of how time compression works, based on the brief expanation given in the game.

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No, it's not explained clearly by Edea or Odine or both. This is all they have to say about it.

Edeas information: "It's time magic. Past, present, and
future get compressed."

Odines information: "Dr. Odine: You vant to go outside!? You vant to fisticuffs!? Ok, we
continue ze story! Let's see... There is only one way to defeat
Ultimecia. You must kill her in ze future. There iz nothing we can do
unless we go to ze future. There is no way to jump to ze future under
normal circumstances. But there iz still a way! It iz because Sorceress
Ultimecia plans to compress time. Compressing time with magic... Vat good
will it do for ze sorceress to compress time? There may be many
reasons, but it doesn't matter. Let's just figure out vat Ultimecia iz
up to. In order for Ultimecia to exist in this time, she must take over
ze body of a sorceress from ze present. But ze machine must have a
limit. Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve
time compression. Only Ellone can take her back further into ze past.
Zat iz why she iz desperately seeking her."

As you can see, neither know anything about why she has to be in the past to activate it, nor exactly what it does.

Your own theory about the ripples works though, if one assumes she casts it at two places.

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As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't make a big difference. However, time and space are infinite; so to compress all time in all places would take infinite energy, which is not possible. Even if it's "done by magic". Magic is a manipulation of energy, so it couldn't have that kind of effect. Ultimecia's goal is to absorb the power from every sorceress who ever lived; that's her reason for compressing time. It's also explained if you cast Scan on Ultiimecia at a particular point during the final battle. Thus, she'd need only to compress time around her world, going back far enough to encompass the entirety of human history, thus ensnaring every sorceress.

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Again, I need to stress that her motive is NOT explained, not even when you scan her. I have scanned all her forms and it makes no mention of that.
The whole gaining power thing is based off what the tutorial says "may" happen during time compression, nothing else.

But I'll agree it makes for a good motive, which can fit in with ripple theory nicely.

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Once again, a clear explanation can be found through a combination of in-game facts and logical conjecture. The team are able to travel to the future while time is compressing, yes. They do that through their own willpower, controlling their passage the way they would a magic spell. Time compression is a form of magic, so this is perfectly logical. It's also consistent with Laguna's instructions. By traversing the beginnings of the compression, they reached Ultimecia's time - where she unleashed the time compression spell. It's possible that the effects of time compression get stronger in the past, and take a while to "catch up" to the future; this'd explain why reality was severely distorted in their own time, but things are slightly less abnormal in Ultimecia's time (NB: The Ragnarok airship and the CC group both moved through time and space, to a different place in the world, during time compression. There's clearly a bit of disruption to Ultimecia's world). But then, during the final battle, time compression progresses. The process is nearing completion when Ultimecia's in her final form; reality has almost entirely dissipated. It is undone when she is defeated and her control over the process is disrupted. Time then de-compresses, and history is largely restored, except for Squall's panic and indecisiveness temporarily returning him to an earlier point in time.

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1) About controlling their passage, that is definitely what Laguna says. However, they do not know WHEN Ultimecias reign is, only that is a "many generations" away, a term so ambiguous it would be like randomly jumping off a train in the time it takes to travel a kilometer, and hoping that you just might hit that crucial 1 meter big area you want to get to.

No, all they do is decide WHERE to head for; Edeas Orphanage.
They then are mysteriously enough dropped off at the exact right time.

This either implies they had no choice but to stop riding time compression then, or that they got pretty damn lucky, or that they got there for an unexplainable reason.

If you argue that Squalls time and Ultimecias time had been compressed together, meaning they didn't actually time travel, you still get a problem, as explained in the next point.

2) You missed my point I'm afraid. Here, perhaps this makes it easier to understand:

The reason they are able to get to Ultimecias time is because TC affects time from their own time to Ultimecias time(and much more of course). This allows them to travel by willpower through time compression.
IF TC had not yet linked both times, it would be impossible for them to get to that time.

Now, TC is actually pushing all of time together, so would you agree that their two times are linked because TC pushes them together?
That would seem to be the most logical assumption, don't you think?

This leads us to creating the diagrams you kindly ignored(or thouyght irrelevant, whichever):

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A – B – C – D – E – F – G

D is where Ultimecia casts the spell. E is Squalls present. F is Ultimecias present. B and C are the mirrored events of E and F by D (meaning there’s the same distance between C and D, as there is between D and E and so on and so forth). A is all events prior to B, and G all events following F.
Now we have a much simpler line to deal with.

Firstly, one could say TC starts at the outer boundaries, and is pushed inwards like that:

A – B – C – D – E – F – G --> AB – C – D – E – FG --> ABC – D – EFG --> ABCDEFG = X(compressed time).

When E and F are connected, giving Squall access to Ultimecias time, they should for one be inside TC, and two, TC should be completed within a fraction of a second, considering how fast the rest of time was compressed. Even if it gets slower the closer to finish it gets, it should still be finished very soon after you arrive.
This contradicts the ingame facts.

Secondly, one could say TC starts inwards:

A – B – C – D – E – F – G --> A - B - CDE - F -G --> A - BCDEF - G -->
ABCDEFG = X.

Here, the problem of why TC is not yet finished is explained, as A and G consists of millions of years probably.
However, BCDEF is definitely part of TC, which contradicts that you should be outside of TC.

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Please do try and make your own model based on your ripples theory, but I think you'll find the same problems arise. Either Squall is obviously fighting Ultimecia inside an area of TC, or TC should already be completed(or both).

That is the mystery. That is the thing which makes TC so unexplainable. The games tells us so little about, and on top of that, two of the facts we get even seem to contradict eachother.

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The process of time compression is not a "huge mystery", nor is it "completely unexplainable". Of course, if you choose not to believe a particular explanation, that's up to you. However, you'll accomplish nothing by playing games and then saying, "Haha! This makes no sense at all! It's not spelled out in the course of the game, and if anyone has a theory, I can just say that their theory's not in the game either! This proves that the game is stupid and makes no sense!"
Such thinking is pointless. A good story doesn't assume that the audience is stupid, that they need every detail spelled out monosyllabically. Conjecture, theory and personal opinion can add colour and detail, just like the R=U theory.

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Excuse me, but in the future, could you please keep your ridiculous, condescending assumptions to yourself, because it only makes YOU look like the idiot here.

Firstly, assuming that I merely played the game and then immediately declared TC as unexplainable is ridiculous, considering I've spent the last year arguing over Time Loops, R=U and TC in topics reaching close to 3000 posts before concluding that it was in fact too mysterious to be explainable.

I thought long and hard, and discussed it with many others(who thankfully didn't jump to baseless assumptions and accusations all the time) before realizing the things I posted above, which I will be waiting for you to make fit into your theory.

Secondly, your telling me that "they [don't] need every detail spelled out" and "conjecture, theory and personal opinion can colour the game" is also ridiculous, considering that I have been arguing FOR R=U for the last year, writing several papers on it, and getting a final paper up on the internet.
You saying that "I can just say your theory isn't in the game" is then espcially ridiculous.

Thirdly and finally, I have not said "this game now makes no sense". All I am saying is that TC appears to be one of those things we were never meant to understand properly, and that I personally think Square decided to go for Cool Factor over Logic.
They even get Squall to say how he could never grasp it.

TC is only a part of the game, and I never stated it makes the entire game stupid.

So please, stop jumping to ridiculous assumptions, and rather concentrate on understanding my actual arguments concerning TC, instead of my character, which is quite frankly irrelevant to the issue.

PS: Forgot to mention in all this, that my own theory is that TC is like two waves being sent off in opposite directions from where it is cast. Once the waves reach the end of the lines(in opposite ends of course), they fall back on eachother, bringing all of time crushing down with them.
Squall and Co ride the initial wave to get to Ultimecias world.

However, I still think it's a unexlainable mystery. My own theory contains it's own flaws anyway.

[q=Sir Bahamut]As you can see, neither know anything about why she has to be in the past to activate it, nor exactly what it does.
[/q]Odine: "Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve time compression."

That makes it pretty clear that a certain amount of time must be encompassed by the spell.

Edea: "Past, present, andfuture get compressed."

That explains what it does, in simplistic terms.

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Again, I need to stress that her motive is NOT explained, not even when you scan her. I have scanned all her forms and it makes no mention of that.
The whole gaining power thing is based off what the tutorial says "may" happen during time compression, nothing else.

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I can't be sure, but I believe this info is obtained if you scan the "human half" of Ultimecia's final form, the portion from which she draws the Apolcalyse spells. It describes her as being transformed in order to absorb the power of all sorceresses, or words to that effect. The info is definitely there, I just don't recall exactly where.

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No, all they do is decide WHERE to head for; Edeas Orphanage.
They then are mysteriously enough dropped off at the exact right time.

This either implies they had no choice but to stop riding time compression then, or that they got pretty damn lucky, or that they got there for an unexplainable reason.

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Of course. They had a goal in mind - to stay together, to confront Ultimecia. As Laguna explained, their combined wills - their "belief in one another" - enabled them to get where they wanted to go. Another possibility is that they ended up at Ultimecia's time because it represents the origin of time compression, where Ultimecia cast her end of the spell. Either way, the game suggests that compressed time is a flexible medium, something that can - to a limited extent - be shaped and moulded by the human mind. Ultimecia's plan was to absorb power out of the compressed mess; Squall ended up in a barren, empty wasteland because of his own "empty" thoughts of loneliness, when he tried to traverse compressed time alone.

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Either Squall is obviously fighting Ultimecia inside an area of TC, or TC should already be completed(or both).

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That much should be obvious - the gradual disintegration of the "playing field" during the final battle suggests as much. For the final fight, the world is nearly empty - just Ultimecia's transformed state, the party, and an endless void. The "lump" of seriously compressed time - the one that Squall and co traverse - seems to encompass the immediate past, and progressively less of the future. Small parts of Squall's time are thrust into the future; that time is partly under the influence of time compression.

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I've spent the last year arguing over Time Loops, R=U and TC in topics reaching close to 3000 posts before concluding that it was in fact too mysterious to be explainable.

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Your conclusions are entirely up to you; they aren't
authoritative or proven fact. If you believe it, then that's all well and good. I have my own ideas, and they make time compression completely explainable and understandable, insofar as is necessary and possible, to satisfy my own ends. The fact that you disagree makes no difference to the reliability of my beliefs, and vice versa. My explanations are adequate for me, so I'm satisfied. There are no contradictions or fallacies in the process as I see it.

It's handy to remember that the full workings of time are not understood by anyone on this Earth, so it's not particularly easy for anyone to state that a particular temporal theory is manifestly "wrong". Goodness only knows what would happen if a particular portion of time were to be compressed; it gets even more uncertain if you factor in the inherent unpredictability of a human consciousness driving the process from two distinct points in history. That could easily account for why the past becomes an indistinct jumble, why people end up in places and times they want to be as a result. It's plausible, even though there's no factual data either in our world or in the game. It's "not improbable", basically. So it works for me.

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They even get Squall to say how he could never grasp it.

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That's logical. Squall's a 17-year-old, with an education that's basically all about military matters. It'd make no sense for him to make sense of time compression, if you see what I mean. It also means that Square don't have to formulate a convoluted, and therefore more likely to be flawed, full explanation for the process. "Discrepancies" in personal theories can be accounted for by the anomalies of human nature, the mysterious properties of time itself, and what happens when those collide.

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the things I posted above, which I will be waiting for you to make fit into your theory.

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Makes it sound like your theory is fact, if I'm obliged to account for it. I'm not. Your ideas, about the rate of compression, the level and evenness of that compression, are necessary to your theory, not mine. Both are equally valid views.

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"conjecture, theory and personal opinion can colour the game" is also ridiculous

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How on Earth is it "ridiculous"? What we take away with us after finishing a story is based largely on how we respond to the text - the characters, the plot, all of it. What we each draw from it is entirely unique. How we interpret the work is up to the individual; some see allegory where others see irony. We "colour" the stories we experience by taking our own perspective on them. That's one of the best things about fiction, in my opinion.

It is also why views on time compression are fine by me, and yours are fine by you, and neither of us needs to be convinced of the other's viewpoint. I understand your argument, and your reasons for believing it. I simply don't share your views.
Personally, I enjoy exchanging opinions and theories, learning about what others believe and why. Even when I don't agree. That's a significant reason behind my coming here.

I enjoy explaining what I think, too. Backing up a theory and comparing it to those of others is a rewarding process. However, it's handy to remember that, with a source text that doesn't give everything away, few things can be dismissed out-of-hand.

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However, I still think it's a unexlainable mystery.

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I, on the other hand, think it is explainable.

That's all there is to it, really - a simple difference of opinion, no-one provably right or wrong. What matters is what we each choose to believe. That's why I find it futile when people get fired up over these kinds of theories, when really the ultimate answer is what we make of it ourselves. Just like that infernal "Sephiroth or Jenova?" argument in FFVII :D

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Odine: "Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve time compression."

That makes it pretty clear that a certain amount of time must be encompassed by the spell.

Edea: "Past, present, andfuture get compressed."

That explains what it does, in simplistic terms.

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What I meant was that they have no idea why she needs to go further back in time.
Odine merely states it, Ultimecias doesn't even mention it.

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I can't be sure, but I believe this info is obtained if you scan the "human half" of Ultimecia's final form, the portion from which she draws the Apolcalyse spells. It describes her as being transformed in order to absorb the power of all sorceresses, or words to that effect. The info is definitely there, I just don't recall exactly where.

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No, scanning says that she's transformed so as to "compress time".
I'm almost 100% certain about that, but I'll try and check.

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Of course. They had a goal in mind - to stay together, to confront Ultimecia. As Laguna explained, their combined wills - their "belief in one another" - enabled them to get where they wanted to go. Another possibility is that they ended up at Ultimecia's time because it represents the origin of time compression, where Ultimecia cast her end of the spell. Either way, the game suggests that compressed time is a flexible medium, something that can - to a limited extent - be shaped and moulded by the human mind. Ultimecia's plan was to absorb power out of the compressed mess; Squall ended up in a barren, empty wasteland because of his own "empty" thoughts of loneliness, when he tried to traverse compressed time alone.

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But I just don't see how they could will themselves to Ultimecias time when they had no idea when that time was.

The other possibility is true, yes.

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That much should be obvious - the gradual disintegration of the "playing field" during the final battle suggests as much. For the final fight, the world is nearly empty - just Ultimecia's transformed state, the party, and an endless void. The "lump" of seriously compressed time - the one that Squall and co traverse - seems to encompass the immediate past, and progressively less of the future. Small parts of Squall's time are thrust into the future; that time is partly under the influence of time compression.

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My point was that Odine makes it clear that you will LEAVE TC, meaning you are not fighting Ultimecia inside TC.

And if their two times have to be compressed together for them to get there, they certainly ARE fighting her inside a small region of TC.

I simply cannot agree with your suggestion that "small parts of Squalls time are thrust into the future" because it just seems like such a bland excuse for how they got there IMO.

Anyway, I personally can't see HOW small parts would be thrust to the future unless they were becoming compressed together, which agains brings up that fatal flaw.

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Your conclusions are entirely up to you; they aren't
authoritative or proven fact. If you believe it, then that's all well and good. I have my own ideas, and they make time compression completely explainable and understandable, insofar as is necessary and possible, to satisfy my own ends. The fact that you disagree makes no difference to the reliability of my beliefs, and vice versa. My explanations are adequate for me, so I'm satisfied. There are no contradictions or fallacies in the process as I see it.

It's handy to remember that the full workings of time are not understood by anyone on this Earth, so it's not particularly easy for anyone to state that a particular temporal theory is manifestly "wrong". Goodness only knows what would happen if a particular portion of time were to be compressed; it gets even more uncertain if you factor in the inherent unpredictability of a human consciousness driving the process from two distinct points in history. That could easily account for why the past becomes an indistinct jumble, why people end up in places and times they want to be as a result. It's plausible, even though there's no factual data either in our world or in the game. It's "not improbable", basically. So it works for me.

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That's all true. They are merely my own conclusions and opinions.

I simply think that based on what we KNOW as a fact about TC, Square probably decided to go for Cool Factor over logic.
My opinion, that's all.

You CAN explain it, as you suggested with bits flying into the future, but that is just far too "made up" for me to agree with, if you know what I mean.

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That's logical. Squall's a 17-year-old, with an education that's basically all about military matters. It'd make no sense for him to make sense of time compression, if you see what I mean. It also means that Square don't have to formulate a convoluted, and therefore more likely to be flawed, full explanation for the process. "Discrepancies" in personal theories can be accounted for by the anomalies of human nature, the mysterious properties of time itself, and what happens when those collide.

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All true, but I still stick by my opinion.

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Makes it sound like your theory is fact, if I'm obliged to account for it. I'm not. Your ideas, about the rate of compression, the level and evenness of that compression, are necessary to your theory, not mine. Both are equally valid views.

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No, my theory is not fact. However, I believe it would be most logical if Squalls gets from his time "A" to Ultimecias time "B" because they are compressed together.
If they were not compressed together, there would be no difference from normal time.

However, if they WERE compressed together, Squall would be fighting Ultimecia inside a small region of Time Compression, which contradicts what Odine says about being OUTSIDE of TC.

THAT is the great flaw I realized was there after all those discussions, and that's why I believe Square never actually wanted to make it a logical process, because if my initial assumption were correct, the whole thing falls apart.

However, I acknowledge that it can be explained if you take another initial assumption, but for me, any other assumption seems far too farfetched and made up.
I don't mind making theories over ingame facts, but I think there's a limit to how much one can make up before it becomes silly.

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How on Earth is it "ridiculous"? What we take away with us after finishing a story is based largely on how we respond to the text - the characters, the plot, all of it. What we each draw from it is entirely unique. How we interpret the work is up to the individual; some see allegory where others see irony. We "colour" the stories we experience by taking our own perspective on them. That's one of the best things about fiction, in my opinion.

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Excuse me, but I think you'll find that if you read what comes afterwards, you'll understand what I meant. It's not like I wrote "is ridiculous PERIOD" =P

Please read the entirety of what I said.

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What I meant was that they have no idea why she needs to go further back in time.
Odine merely states it, Ultimecias doesn't even mention it.

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Right-o. Yet the fact remains, she needs to go back further. She can't perform time compression unless she does. Logical conclusion? She needs to go back further in order for time compression to work.

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No, scanning says that she's transformed so as to "compress time".
I'm almost 100% certain about that, but I'll try and check.

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At some point in the game, it's stated that Ultimecia's bent on absorbing the power of all sorceresses from all eras. I forget the exact wording or location, simply that it's said somewhere. Not something I came up with on my own.

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But I just don't see how they could will themselves to Ultimecias time when they had no idea when that time was.

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But then, even if they knew the exact year and date, it'd be the same - time cares nothing for our units of measurement; I think it was enough that they wanted to go to Ultimecia, to continue the fight, as it were.

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My point was that Odine makes it clear that you will LEAVE TC, meaning you are not fighting Ultimecia inside TC.

And if their two times have to be compressed together for them to get there, they certainly ARE fighting her inside a small region of TC.

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Yes. They travelled through that chaotic, dream-like world of totally compressed time, full of distortion and imbalance. I think that's kind of like "totally compressed time", where the procedure's more-or-less complete. They pop out at the "front end" of time compression, like being on the outside of a black hole's event horizon, in normal space. However, even in Ultimecia's time, compression was beginning to take place. The process was expanding, creeping forward by the looks of things.

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I simply cannot agree with your suggestion that "small parts of Squalls time are thrust into the future" because it just seems like such a bland excuse for how they got there IMO.

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It's not an excuse for how they got there; their arrival is explained by the "willing themselves through compressed time" deal. The presence of the Ragnarok and the CC group, and the Queen of Cards and Chocoboy, proves that time compression has had an effect in Ultimecia's world. Her future contains elements of what Squall considers "the present" - a blend of two different times, if not more. It's not as much of a compression as what happened when the party began their journey to the future, but it is a kind of "jumbling" of past and future elements.

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Anyway, I personally can't see HOW small parts would be thrust to the future unless they were becoming compressed together, which agains brings up that fatal flaw.

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Far from being a flaw, I see it as logical. The crew journey through the fractured, compacted parts of time, leaving that reality at the point where time is less compressed, more "real". An explosion is a suitable analogy - at the centre, it's destroyed and chaotic; but closer to the edge, there's less disruption and harm.

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However, I believe it would be most logical if Squalls gets from his time "A" to Ultimecias time "B" because they are compressed together.
If they were not compressed together, there would be no difference from normal time.

However, if they WERE compressed together, Squall would be fighting Ultimecia inside a small region of Time Compression, which contradicts what Odine says about being OUTSIDE of TC.

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Sure, they're outside of the totally compressed, disrupted region of time; but details from the game itself demonstrate that elements of past and future have been combined in that time. Not a complete fusion, but an overlapping.
Another interpretation... could be that "compressed time" exists as an adjacent reality, a parallel universe of sorts; but after Ultimecia starts the compression, it gradually begins "eating into" the real world. When Squall et al begin the journey through compressed time, they're right in the thick of it - at the heart of the compressed-time universe. It's all a blurred jumble; they can't just leave and stay in their own time because their own time has been encompassed, absorbed by this compression. When they leave compressed time, they're back in what remains of "normal time", which is Ultimecia's future, where the effects of time compresson haven't completely spilled over. There's a clear distinction between compressed time, and the normal time that exists outside of it. When Squall's trying to return to his own time, he winds up in the orphanage. He's left compressed time, but clearly the effects of time compression are still present, as shown by his presence there, and Ultimecia's, and his ability to depart again. He leaves "real time", which is gradually de-compressing back to its normal state, and returns to compressed time, or what's left of it - that ever-decreasing void. Then Rinoa finds him, and together they get back to reality, before time compression is completely undone and their means of passage has vanished.

On the other hand, it could just be that Odine doesn't fully know what he's talking about when he refers to "being OUTSIDE of TC.":D

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No, my theory is not fact.

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What made it seem like "fact" was your use of the word "unexplainable". Unexplainable=not capable of being explained. Quite different to simply "unexplained", or "not explained to my satisfaction". When you said it was "unexplainable", it seemed like you were saying that the process cannot be explained, that it's incapable of explanation, just because your own deliberations hadn't provided an answer. I know that's not your intent, that's just how it came across - like you were purporting your belief to be fact. Kind of reinforced when you said, "concluding that it was in fact too mysterious to be explainable."
Clearly, that's not what you actually intended; however, to an outside observer, it looked much like you were saying, "well, I thought about it, and since I can't think of an explanation, then that means it's not explainable".

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Excuse me, but I think you'll find that if you read what comes afterwards, you'll understand what I meant.

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You're excused. I read your entire post, I just didn't feel like commenting on the entire thing.

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Right-o. Yet the fact remains, she needs to go back further. She can't perform time compression unless she does. Logical conclusion? She needs to go back further in order for time compression to work.

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I took that as a given actually. The question is WHY she needs to do so. That is never answered.

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At some point in the game, it's stated that Ultimecia's bent on absorbing the power of all sorceresses from all eras. I forget the exact wording or location, simply that it's said somewhere. Not something I came up with on my own.

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The only thing in the game similar to that is that in the tutorial, under the effects of time compression, it says "sorceress powers may cross over to give one sorceress great powers".

If you want to cinvince me otherwise, you'll need an exact quote.

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But then, even if they knew the exact year and date, it'd be the same - time cares nothing for our units of measurement; I think it was enough that they wanted to go to Ultimecia, to continue the fight, as it were.

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Time may not care, but if Squall were to manipulate his way through time, it might help if he knew where he was going.

But you're right, it could have simply been enough wishing to go and fight Ultimecia.

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Yes. They travelled through that chaotic, dream-like world of totally compressed time, full of distortion and imbalance. I think that's kind of like "totally compressed time", where the procedure's more-or-less complete. They pop out at the "front end" of time compression, like being on the outside of a black hole's event horizon, in normal space. However, even in Ultimecia's time, compression was beginning to take place. The process was expanding, creeping forward by the looks of things.

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But if time compressed all the "many generations" so quickly, allowing them to "pop out" in front of time compression so to speak, one would think TC should swallow up that era too.

I mean, TC gobbles up hundreds of years within the span of probably ten minutes, it should gobble up the hour or so you use getting through Ultimecias castle within seconds.

Yes, it might slow down, but that again seems to be pulling it too far IMO.
I mean, when you have to explain things by making up things completely, things not backed up by anything than for the purpose of trying to make sense to it, then it's gone too far IMO.

Besides, I don't see any reason why it should suddenly slow down from such an incredible speed to a really tiny speed all of a sudden.

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It's not an excuse for how they got there; their arrival is explained by the "willing themselves through compressed time" deal. The presence of the Ragnarok and the CC group, and the Queen of Cards and Chocoboy, proves that time compression has had an effect in Ultimecia's world. Her future contains elements of what Squall considers "the present" - a blend of two different times, if not more. It's not as much of a compression as what happened when the party began their journey to the future, but it is a kind of "jumbling" of past and future elements.

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You are right, there IS evidence that bits from Squalls time were "thrown" into Ultimecias time, so Ultimecias time and Squalls time must have been linked by at least a small part.

Stupid Odine, why did he have to say you would leave TC when fighting Ultimecia. Of course, perhaps they were just linked very minutely, not enough to be considered inside TC.

Sounds awfulyl dodgy though, IMO.

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Far from being a flaw, I see it as logical. The crew journey through the fractured, compacted parts of time, leaving that reality at the point where time is less compressed, more "real". An explosion is a suitable analogy - at the centre, it's destroyed and chaotic; but closer to the edge, there's less disruption and harm.

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Good analogy there, but the expansion of an explosion doesn't suddenly drop it's speed by huge proportions.

Good analogy anyway, makes sense.

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Sure, they're outside of the totally compressed, disrupted region of time; but details from the game itself demonstrate that elements of past and future have been combined in that time. Not a complete fusion, but an overlapping.

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Yes, all would now seem to be explainable, save the sudden drop in speed.

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Another interpretation... could be that "compressed time" exists as an adjacent reality, a parallel universe of sorts; but after Ultimecia starts the compression, it gradually begins "eating into" the real world. When Squall et al begin the journey through compressed time, they're right in the thick of it - at the heart of the compressed-time universe. It's all a blurred jumble; they can't just leave and stay in their own time because their own time has been encompassed, absorbed by this compression. When they leave compressed time, they're back in what remains of "normal time", which is Ultimecia's future, where the effects of time compresson haven't completely spilled over. There's a clear distinction between compressed time, and the normal time that exists outside of it.

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Perhaps, perhaps.

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On the other hand, it could just be that Odine doesn't fully know what he's talking about when he refers to "being OUTSIDE of TC."

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Haha, that would certainly make life easier!

Anyway, thank you. I had gotten locked into a little box that said TC was unexplainable due to that flaw I mentioned earlier, and I did not think it was explainable.

I still think Square didn't quite think it all through when they put in all the info of TC, but at least know I don't think it's complete bollocks
:D

[quoteThe only thing in the game similar to that is that in the tutorial, under the effects of time compression, it says "sorceress powers may cross over to give one sorceress great powers".

If you want to cinvince me otherwise, you'll need an exact quote.
[/quote]Ah, that's the one. Knew it was something like that. I usually trust what the tutorial says, since it provides all the nifty background info on other events. But even then, it seems that Ultimecia's goal, like so many FF villains before her, is to attain ultimate power. Her final form is supremely powerful, capable of absorbing time and space, if I recall right; she got more powerful as time compressed more. She wanted to become a "God" and rule over all creation, apparently. Pretty generic delusions of divinity.

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But if time compressed all the "many generations" so quickly, allowing them to "pop out" in front of time compression so to speak, one would think TC should swallow up that era too.

I mean, TC gobbles up hundreds of years within the span of probably ten minutes, it should gobble up the hour or so you use getting through Ultimecias castle within seconds.

Yes, it might slow down, but that again seems to be pulling it too far IMO.
I mean, when you have to explain things by making up things completely, things not backed up by anything than for the purpose of trying to make sense to it, then it's gone too far IMO.

Besides, I don't see any reason why it should suddenly slow down from such an incredible speed to a really tiny speed all of a sudden.

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True enough. It's possible that time compression works via an initial, uncontrolled 'cascade', a rapidly expanding rush that then settles back into a steady, controllable progression. Ultimecia's a bit of a control freak, so she'd probably like to keep control over the process. That's a possibility, anyway. Hate to use a morbid analogy again, but the "exploding building" image works, too - the initial "bang" represents the first, violent form of time compression, the one that Squall and co can travel through. What comes next is a fire, just as destructive, but moving through the rest of the structure slowly, expanding and consuming. Of course, there's absolutely nothing in the game to support this; it's pure conjecture contrived to fit the facts.

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I still think Square didn't quite think it all through when they put in all the info of TC

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Absolutely right! They probably underestimated intelligent fans' desire for explanations, closure and clarity. The basic framework is there - "Ultimecia goes into the past to compress time; Squall and co move through compressed time and arrive in her world" - which is fine, until you go deeper and try to establish a deeper, logical chronology and explanation for what's happening. That's when dodgy conjecture and theories have to emerge, to cover what might otherwise seem to be glaring plot-holes:D
On the face of it, their story 'works'; it's only when it's examined in detail that further explanations are needed. Much like the aforementioned "Sephiroth or Jenova?" debate in FFVII.

You've clearly put a lot of time and effort, not to mention brain-power, into formulating these theories; the only problem with that kind of intelligent thinking is that it all kind of back-fires when you go beyond the point that the creators ever figured anyone would go. When you get past the limits of back-stories and in-game explanations, you're into a world of total conjecture, with unlimited scope for postulating and hypothesising.:)
But then, it gives people a chance to use their imaginations and come up with their own explanations for what works and doesn't for how and why things happen or shouldn't.

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Ah, that's the one. Knew it was something like that. I usually trust what the tutorial says, since it provides all the nifty background info on other events. But even then, it seems that Ultimecia's goal, like so many FF villains before her, is to attain ultimate power. Her final form is supremely powerful, capable of absorbing time and space, if I recall right; she got more powerful as time compressed more. She wanted to become a "God" and rule over all creation, apparently. Pretty generic delusions of divinity.

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As much as I hate that generic, stereo-type motive, I have to agree.
The tutorial does seem to be Squares way of letting us know all sorts of details, even if they just put "may" I think that was their way of giving her a motive.

Pity =/

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True enough. It's possible that time compression works via an initial, uncontrolled 'cascade', a rapidly expanding rush that then settles back into a steady, controllable progression. Ultimecia's a bit of a control freak, so she'd probably like to keep control over the process. That's a possibility, anyway. Hate to use a morbid analogy again, but the "exploding building" image works, too - the initial "bang" represents the first, violent form of time compression, the one that Squall and co can travel through. What comes next is a fire, just as destructive, but moving through the rest of the structure slowly, expanding and consuming. Of course, there's absolutely nothing in the game to support this; it's pure conjecture contrived to fit the facts.

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It'd have to slow down awfully quickly awfully fast though, and Ultimecia gives me the impression that she would want TC to be finished quickly(seeing as she says "The world was on the brink of that ever elusive Time Compression" as if she was cross that SeeD had intervened).

A speed of several hundred years in about ten minutes shifting to what would probably have to be a few minutes per minute?

Oh well.

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Absolutely right! They probably underestimated intelligent fans' desire for explanations, closure and clarity. The basic framework is there - "Ultimecia goes into the past to compress time; Squall and co move through compressed time and arrive in her world" - which is fine, until you go deeper and try to establish a deeper, logical chronology and explanation for what's happening. That's when dodgy conjecture and theories have to emerge, to cover what might otherwise seem to be glaring plot-holes
On the face of it, their story 'works'; it's only when it's examined in detail that further explanations are needed. Much like the aforementioned "Sephiroth or Jenova?" debate in FFVII.

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I completely agree.
Pity, TC was a nice idea. Wish they put some more work into it.

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You've clearly put a lot of time and effort, not to mention brain-power, into formulating these theories; the only problem with that kind of intelligent thinking is that it all kind of back-fires when you go beyond the point that the creators ever figured anyone would go. When you get past the limits of back-stories and in-game explanations, you're into a world of total conjecture, with unlimited scope for postulating and hypothesising.
But then, it gives people a chance to use their imaginations and come up with their own explanations for what works and doesn't for how and why things happen or shouldn't.

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Very true, imagination is really the only way out here, and I think in many cases that's a great thing.
But in this case, I think Square left far too much space for imagination.

Anyway, been a pleasure debating with you. Hope you can forgive my snappish and arrogant tendencies, I get like that sometimes(too competative I fear).

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It'd have to slow down awfully quickly awfully fast though, and Ultimecia gives me the impression that she would want TC to be finished quickly(seeing as she says "The world was on the brink of that ever elusive Time Compression" as if she was cross that SeeD had intervened).

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Now there's a thought... maybe SeeD's intervention somehow interrupted the process? They made a conscious choice to travel to Ultimecia's time in particular; perhaps that caused a temporary cessation to the compression process somehow... Ultimecia seemed to think that she had to kill Squall's party and end their interference before her total domination could come into effect... that adds yet more possibilities.

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Anyway, been a pleasure debating with you. Hope you can forgive my snappish and arrogant tendencies, I get like that sometimes(too competative I fear).

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:)Likewise; I oughta apologise for taking your arguments at face value rather than interpreting what you actually meant.

Dammit, now it seems we agree fully and there's nothing more to discuss. Hmm. Ah well, progress can still be made, even without an adversarial framework. It's possible this thread could eventually develop into a full and plausible explanation of time compression...

Although i shouldnt, im gonna post my opinion, cause im arrogant and i can admit that.

Ne who.

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I mean, TC gobbles up hundreds of years within the span of probably ten minutes, it should gobble up the hour or so you use getting through Ultimecias castle within seconds.

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My theroy is that parts of time is randomly thrown in the compressed time.

(ill use ur kinda example Bahamuhut)Example:

Time before spell
A>B>C>D>E>F>G

E is squalls time. G is ultys. everything else is everthing else.

Time begininng of spell
A>B>C> > >F>DEG

Around Middle
>B>C> > >F>ADEG

Last three seconds of final battle
>B> > > > >ADEFG

See, just random times are going to ulty's time.

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If you want to cinvince me otherwise, you'll need an exact quote.

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I don't have an exact quote, but i remember(i think) Edea saying that Ulty wants to compres time so she can have all the sorceress' power. This conversation was at the ophernage after the second battle with edea. the screen was black and squall was thinking about rinoa durring the convo.

Ne who. Thats my Dumb*** opinion

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Now there's a thought... maybe SeeD's intervention somehow interrupted the process? They made a conscious choice to travel to Ultimecia's time in particular; perhaps that caused a temporary cessation to the compression process somehow... Ultimecia seemed to think that she had to kill Squall's party and end their interference before her total domination could come into effect... that adds yet more possibilities.

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Possible. Ultimecia is certainly very distrought at their arrival. However, it cannot be said whether that is because the stopped TC from completion, or because they showed up to try and kill her =/

Perhaps both.

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Likewise; I oughta apologise for taking your arguments at face value rather than interpreting what you actually meant.

Dammit, now it seems we agree fully and there's nothing more to discuss. Hmm. Ah well, progress can still be made, even without an adversarial framework. It's possible this thread could eventually develop into a full and plausible explanation of time compression...

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That would certainly be ideal. But I for one can't think of a new idea right now.

:mad:

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My theroy is that parts of time is randomly thrown in the compressed time.

(ill use ur kinda example Bahamuhut)Example:

Time before spell
A>B>C>D>E>F>G

E is squalls time. G is ultys. everything else is everthing else.

Time begininng of spell
A>B>C> > >F>DEG

Around Middle
>B>C> > >F>ADEG

Last three seconds of final battle
>B> > > > >ADEFG

See, just random times are going to ulty's time.

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I don't know, such complete randomness doesn't seem to fit in. Ultimecia would have no control over it for one, and I just can't picture the spell acting like that.
Obviously just opinion, but I would prefer order over chaos =/

Also, in your time, it looks like statistically odds are quite high you'd be fighting her inside a region of TC consisting of multiple compressed eras, meaning it should probably be considered "inside TC" contradicting Odine.
Perhaps they got insanely lucky?

Also, if Squall and Co had no control over getting to Ultimecias time, everything Laguna says about using willpower to get there and stay alive is rendered false.
Sure, Laguna may not know squat about TC, but do you really think Square intended him to not be telling the truth?

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I don't have an exact quote, but i remember(i think) Edea saying that Ulty wants to compres time so she can have all the sorceress' power. This conversation was at the ophernage after the second battle with edea. the screen was black and squall was thinking about rinoa durring the convo.

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Edea: ...I have been possessed all this time. I was at the mercy of
Sorceress Ultimecia. Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A
sorceress many generations ahead of our time. Ultimecia's objective is
to find Ellone. She is after Ellone's mysterious power. I knew Ellone
very well. Ultimecia is a very fearful sorceress. Her heart is filled
with anger and hate. There was no way I was going to let Ultimecia get
a hold of Ellone. The only thing I could do was... ...Surrender my soul to
Ultimecia and lose control of my mind. That was the only way I could
save Ellone. And the end result... Well, you all know. The sorceress that
appeared in Galbadia was in fact Ultimecia...inside my shell...

Squall talks to Edea again.

Edea: Ultimecia had yet to achieve her goal. I believe she may use my
body again to carry out her plans. I plan to make a stand this time,
but...if that does not work... I may have to face you in battle once again.
I ask for your support, young SeeDs.

Before Squall could leave...

Zell: Squall, I'm sure that Matron has much more to say!

Squall: (I've heard enough.) (I understand that listening to what
Matron has to say is important, but Rinoa...) Matron, do you know what's
wrong with Rinoa?

Edea: Rinoa is the girl in light blue? I remember vaguely... What
happened to her?

Squall: She was with us when we fought you. After the battle... ...Her body
was cold... She didn't move...

Headmaster Cid: Did Rinoa die!?

Squall: NO!!!

Edea: Forgive me, Squall. I don't think I can be of any help.

Squall: ...It's all right.

Headmaster Cid: Squall, I understand how you feel. But you are in a
position of leadership. The other students at Garden have a right to
know about the outcome of the battle and what's to come. Take whatever
information you can get here, back to Garden. Remember, it wasn't just
Rinoa. Everyone fought.

Squall: I understand... But...

Headmaster Cid: But, but, but... That isn't something a leader should
say.

Squall: ......... (...Dammit.) Ultimecia's objective is to find Ellone. (First
time we met was the day I became a SeeD. We met again...in Timber...)
Ellone's mysterious power... Sending one's consciousness back into the
past. So Ultimecia wants to use Ellone's power, right? (We had a lot of
arguments at first. But in time, things began to change.) I get it.
Ultimecia wants to send her consciousness from this period further into
the past. What's she going to do in the past? (You were looking at me...
You smile when our eyes met...) Time compression. Time compression? (It
made me feel calm, tranquil.) It's time magic. Past, present, and
future get compressed. What's going to happen to the world? Why do
something like that? (Rinoa... Give me another chance.) I can't even
imagine a world where time is compressed!

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Nope, I'm afraid you're wrong.

Shioot.knew i shouldnt have gotten involved. have a moomba :moomba: