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I read this article in today's San Francisco Chronicle. A 17-year-old from Sonoma County, from certain viewpoints, may have said too much to offend certain individuals because of his ultra-conservative ideology.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NGTG4MBG31.DTL
What do you think? He certainly didn't try to mince words, but being so straight-forward might not have been the best move on his part. He's entitled to it, though.
When you say:
"Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America -- mostly illegally -- to rip off our health care system, balkanize our language and destroy our political system."
I think that crosses the line from political to racist. Of course, right wingers have always been fond of using racial tensions to divide and conquer.
Bueler? Hmmm, is that name indigenous?
If you find those names offensive than I feel sorry for you, if someone said "Tom, Dick, and Harry" about Americans would you get upset? What if those names are more common in the countries he's trying to portray?Quote:
Originally posted by eestlinc
When you say:
"Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America -- mostly illegally -- to rip off our health care system, balkanize our language and destroy our political system."
On the other hand, that whole part could've been left out completely and he still could've had his point put across.
O'Reilly pretty much viewed it the same way I do. It's good that the kid is working to change his surroundings as every student should try to do, but he needs to tone it down in order to be taken seriously.
I find this hilarious, you took a common and well know left-wing tactic, crossed out left-wing and slapped right-wing over it. You're a perfect example by calling this guy a racist, you throw that word around to anyone that doesn't share your views in order to crush them.Quote:
Originally posted by eestlinc I think that crosses the line from political to racist. Of course, right wingers have always been fond of using racial tensions to divide and conquer.
From the article his comments did seem a bit fanatical. That "balkanize our language" bit almost seems white-supremacist.
I don't agree with his comments, but I'm certainly not going to interfere with his freedom of speech. Anyone who finds it offensive should just ignore him and let him rant until his face turns blue.
I'm sorry Talus, but anyone who refers to ethnic groups by common names is using an ethnic slur. If I refer to Chinese as Wangs and Changs, it's the same thing. I'm not trying to say all Republicans or right-winger are racists, but this guy does seem primed for an Aryan Nation rally.
The student is of little consequence to me in this article. Anyone can whip up a fiery, offensive article and get attention. Most people don't want to. The school deserves praise for supporting his right to freedom of speech, rather than crushing him in a panic and making him a martyr. This way, he's the villain with the racist rhetoric, and the school is the Constitution abiding, supporter of open discourse that defended him above and beyond the norm. They know how to best quell an upstart like him.
Quote:
Originally posted by eestlinc
I'm sorry Talus, but anyone who refers to ethnic groups by common names is using an ethnic slur. If I refer to Chinese as Wangs and Changs, it's the same thing. I'm not trying to say all Republicans or right-winger are racists, but this guy does seem primed for an Aryan Nation rally.
Who says this guy is Aryan? He could be Jewish, he could be Italian, he could be whatever! I think you just made an ethnic slur about this guy, yourself. And I'm sorry, but in this day and age, being called an Aryan can be pretty offensive. I know I'm offended when someone calls me an Aryan.Quote:
slur ( P ) Pronunciation Key (slūr)
n.
A disparaging remark; an aspersion.
A slurred utterance or sound.
Music.
A curved line connecting notes on a score to indicate that they are to be played or sung legato.
A passage played or sung in this manner.
Printing. A smeared or blurred impression.
I didn't say he was an Aryan. I said he seemed like he would fit in with their world view, ie hatred of foreigners.
I don't know if the school deserves too much praise, the article kind of told half a story. According to the student the teachers would say some pretty extreme things themselves, such as the blood of 9/11 is on Bush's hands. So basically you have the school on one extreme of a spectrum and this student way over on the other side of the spectrum. This article tends to make the student out to be the bad guy and some radio/television programs will have to school look bad.
The truth lies in the middle of it all, some of the teachers shared their biased opinions in class sparking this students intrests, he felt the only way to be heard is through extreme and equally biased comments.
And for Eestlinc, I know what the student said was very much inappropriate. I'm just trying to get people to view this from multiple angles. Your judgment of him as an Aryan (or potential to be one) could be viewed as equally offensive to the student's assumption against foreigners.
I know, I just grew up around a lot of racists and I know the profile they fall into and it's really sad.
That dumbass got what was coming to him. You would think that a whole school getting pissed off at you and wanting to kick your , would snap you out of your way of thinking. OOOOH NO! Not for this person. Appearntly those liberial numbskulls need a bigger and harder dose of 'the truth'.
People like this only make me hate both sides...cept Al Frankin. That man is just funny.
Yes, we all know you yanks have allready buggered up our language.Quote:
From the article his comments did seem a bit fanatical. That "balkanize our language" bit almost seems white-supremacist.
Frankly, i'm not riled up by this kid. Any sort of extremist rant is going to illicit from me one of two responses:
A) Hey, i agree, all right.
b) Wow, i disagree, no good.
But he's too extreme to be changing my mind, so he doesn't bother me. So long as he restrains himself within the limits of the law, all i see is sensationalism. His opinions in themselves, however, are another matter entirely.
What i've never understood about the argument against immigration is that, save the descendants of Native Americans, we're all the product of immigration at some point in the family tree. Bueller has plenty to say, but some of his comments do smell of racism, and certainly intolerance.
Also, these attacks on Eestlinc's comment about Bueller having opinions similar to those of the Nazis are foolish. He didn't call Bueller Aryan - he simply said that Bueller isn't far from that mindset. It was merely a comparison. Yes, it carries with it a connotation greater than extremist politics, and perhaps it wasn't the best term, but "Aryan" hardly has the same diminutive racial slant as any ethnic slur, and it has nothing to do with an actual ethnicity or race at all - it's a political and social invention. To attempt to make a mockery of his argument like that is rather petty.
I think this can all be cleared up by one simple statement.
We do not have the right to never be offended.
If somebody calls me a cracker, and I get upset, whose fault is that? Mine for getting mad, or his for saying it? sure, it may have been wrong--well, not against a white male, but anything against a female or a black or hispanic or Asian would have been wrong, but what are we going to do about it? Are we going to sue everybody who says something we don't like because, oh, God forbid, somebody might could be offended by it? Learn to deal with it, we're all going to have to put up with people we don't like, and with people who don't like us. Shut up, do your job, and get on with your life. Whining about this--this and any other seeminly offensive remarks--will only add fuel to these people's fires. While what he said was correct, he worded it very badly. Don't like it? Don't sit next to him at the lunch table.
EDIT (ADD) : Trace Native American heritage back far enough, and even they immigrated from the Bering Straight. Face it, we're all descendents of immigrants, and I'm as much of a native American as anybody else. I was born here, I'm native.
well, there is a difference between free speech and disturbing the peace. I don't know if he disturbed the peace with his flyers, but he might have.
My point stands all the stronger, then.Quote:
Originally posted by Sasquatch
EDIT (ADD) : Trace Native American heritage back far enough, and even they immigrated from the Bering Straight. Face it, we're all descendents of immigrants, and I'm as much of a native American as anybody else. I was born here, I'm native.
Also, i'd like to point out that this idea that people responded badly because it merely "offended" them misses the entire point of the negative response. Left-wing philosophies are often assaulted for being "whiny" or "easily offended." And i can understand this, because at its furthest extreme liberal philosophy can get so hung up about such minor things as to be not even worth the time, and political movements have always been unfortunately identified with their most outspoken and extreme sects. But the response to Bueller is not about 'getting upset that he said mean things.' Though this kid presents his views within the boundaries of our acceptable political spectrum, his ideals are destructive. "Offend" is hardly the word, because his brand of intolerance is the sort that damages community, supporting narrow-mindedness and a factioned, isolationist society. People live on the individual and communal level, and need both. Without individual thought, we get 1984. Without society, we get anarchy. Humans are social beings; for him to be so viciously assaulting community isn't "hurtful," because that completely misses the point: it's truly damaging.
I think he's doing this souly for attention. We had a flaming libertarian at SEMO trying to stir up trouble. We had a prankster who pulled the fire alarm every night. He got mad and started on about big brother when *a student* merely suggested that a camera by the smoke alarms would catch the guy. The girl sitting next to me told him to stop having sex in the louge and he;d have nothing to worry about.
:eek:
Anyway I think it's just sorta like a game to see who can piss off the teachers. He want to be big man. If the college was conservative he'd be a communist talking about how the corprate loving teachers have gotten out of line.
It's people like this that make foster my distaste for our political system. We are so partisan we are often blinded to things that really matter. It's always Democrat this, Republican that, Liberal this, Conservative that. I'd like to see a country that cares more about upholding the constitution and enacting laws that are both sensible and fair. Both parties and both ends of the spectrum are guilty of going against both those things.
I think part of the problem is that we're essentially a two party system. It wakes it far too easy to make the other side the enemy. It's checkers. One side up and the other down. I'm liberal on some things like gay marriage and healthcare and conservative on others, but because of the way the system is set up I would be labelled as "the other side" by both parties depending on the issue. So then these wingers say : "he disagrees so he's wrong" and like most young kids are kinda vocal about it, so he gets in trouble with the faculty who see him as a dangerous right wing guy.
We need a parlimentry system like England.
Because you know how Ayran people are automatically not Jewish, right? Because, someone's race determines their religion, right?Quote:
Originally posted by DocFrance
Who says this guy is Aryan? He could be Jewish
You know how extreme conservatives often refer to liberals as traitors? Well, did you know that the penalty in the U.S. for treason is death? So these people are saying that half of the U.S. population should be killed. Wow. Who are the real traitors now?
I didn't say that at all. I was saying that he might not be Aryan. Besides, "Jewish" is a race as well as a faith. But let's not argue semantics here.Quote:
Originally posted by Moose Knight
Because you know how Ayran people are automatically not Jewish, right? Because, someone's race determines their religion, right?
That's a pretty broad statement, isn't it? Do you know many extreme conservatives do you know that say that, or are you just saying that to try to make a point? I don't think liberals - though whiney and idealistic - are traitors. Of course, I'm not an extremist, either.Quote:
Originally posted by Moose Knight
You know how extreme conservatives often refer to liberals as traitors? Well, did you know that the penalty in the U.S. for treason is death? So these people are saying that half of the U.S. population should be killed. Wow. Who are the real traitors now?
If you say so...Quote:
Originally posted by DocFrance
Of course, I'm not an extremist, either.
...wait a minute...:erm: sounds like an extermist thing to say :DQuote:
Originally posted by DocFrance
I don't think liberals - though whiney and idealistic - are traitors.
How dare you, you traitor! Oh... wait... hmm... Freudian slip?Quote:
Originally posted by edczxcvbnm
...wait a minute...:erm: sounds like an extermist thing to say :D
All conservatives should be taken behind the sauna. :D
What's that supposed to mean?Quote:
Originally posted by Nait
All conservatives should be taken behind the sauna. :D
It's a finnish idiom, losely translated as:
"All conservatives should be taken behind the sauna and given a warm cup o' joe with a sweet bun."
:D
"A race as well as a faith?" Could you please explain. Nazis also thought that Jews were a race as well as a faith. They, and the Jesuits who organized the Spanish Inquisition, believed that a Christian who had a Jewish parent anywhere in his family tree was still Jewish, just for the same reason that you said - that "Jewish" is a race. They're saying that a Christian would be Jewish. Common sense can easily tell you otherwise.Quote:
Originally posted by DocFrance
I didn't say that at all. I was saying that he might not be Aryan. Besides, "Jewish" is a race as well as a faith. But let's not argue semantics here.
"Jewish" is not a race. If "Jewish" was a race, then an asain person could not become Jewish. This is easily the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life.
This whole idealology is the exact same excuse for a large portion of my family being hideously put to death by the nazis during World War II.
If I might ask then how do you define being jewish? I was under the impresssion that they all claimed decesnt from Abraham and Jacob. I would think that would make you at least sort of like a clan at least. Forgive my ignorance.:foot:
Look, I'm not saying that because a person is of the Jewish race that he or she MUST be of the Jewish faith. I never said that.Quote:
Originally posted by Moose Knight
"A race as well as a faith?" Could you please explain. Nazis also thought that Jews were a race as well as a faith. They, and the Jesuits who organized the Spanish Inquisition, believed that a Christian who had a Jewish parent anywhere in his family tree was still Jewish, just for the same reason that you said - that "Jewish" is a race. They're saying that a Christian would be Jewish. Common sense can easily tell you otherwise.
"Jewish" is not a race. If "Jewish" was a race, then an asain person could not become Jewish. This is easily the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life.
This whole idealology is the exact same excuse for a large portion of my family being hideously put to death by the nazis during World War II.
Did you know that there exists a particular birth defect - I think it's Tay-Sachs, I could be wrong - which is found predominantly in members of the Jewish race? I highly doubt that it occurs because of what they believe in.
The correct grouping for "Jews" is ethnicity. Ethnicity means relating to a person or to a large group of people who share a national, racial, linguistic, or religious heritage, whether or not they reside in their countries of origin. Race is strictly hereditary. You cannot pass on culture through genes and thus "Jewish" is ethnic because it is a combination of race and culture. Hitler made the little mistake of thinking it was strictly hereditary.
EDIT: Hence the term "ethnic cleansing." Bosnia being an example where two groups being racially identical but just couldn't iron out those other differences. Palestine/Israel and the Holocaust are probably the most extreme examples of "cleansing." In the US discrimination is mostly racial. Everybody is stereotyped into black, white, etc. The mainstream culture aspects of the US have degenerated in rampant shallow consumerism, namely 'pop culture.'
So it's like being French then, right?
You can be born french or become french and once you're french your kids will be french too.
OK, I guess that does make sense. Although, the French analogy doesn't quite work, since French isn't a religion...Quote:
Originally posted by goyabean
The correct grouping for "Jews" is ethnicity. Ethnicity means relating to a person or to a large group of people who share a national, racial, linguistic, or religious heritage, whether or not they reside in their countries of origin. Race is strictly hereditary. You cannot pass on culture through genes and thus "Jewish" is ethnic because it is a combination of race and culture. Hitler made the little mistake of thinking it was strictly hereditary.
I guess 'Arab' could go along the lines of that same category, though not exact. The overwhelming majority of "Arabs" are Muslim, but not all. And they are an "ethnicity."
"un-American comments expressed by your liberal teachers."Quote:
Originally posted by DocFrance
That's a pretty broad statement, isn't it? Do you know many extreme conservatives do you know that say that, or are you just saying that to try to make a point?
and
"Let's take a stand against the liberal traitors who call themselves teachers,"
were both said by this guy. He's pretty much saying that only liberals can be traitors, or that only liberal traitors are the only traitors that should be dealt with. Either way he's stupid.
That's only one guy, but I do agree that he's pretty stupid.