Printable View
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...sts/index.html
Looks like the perfect starting point for a total crisis in my country. I am so happy I want to kill myself. Anyway, read and judge, it's preety crazy, really.
What irks me a lot, however, is how politicians here use terrorism to get votes. However, in this case the masacre has been preety brute, and they are shutting up in respect.
I read it a few minutes ago. Terrible that it only takes a small group of human trash to cause so much damage to so many innocent people. Let's hope they're hunted down as quickly as possible.
So far as politicians using terrorism to get votes, it'll probably come later, once the shock wears off. We went a good number of months here after 9/11 before the politicians got back to politicking each other. I think even the dirtiest politician in the world has to have some sense of human decency and sympathy when something like this happens though.
Yeah, I'm just waiting to see how much time they manage to keep their mouths shut, knowing this pathetic country, not much.
I still wonder who is responsable...it does not look like an ETA attack, it's not their style, I guess it's a rebel cell against the terrorist group, ETA has never been even half as brute as this.
Bah, today I feel ashamed of being Spanish. It's amazing how all of our goverments have had such a lame way of dealing with terrorism, this could have been stopped using the word and the head, but you know, no one listents to the other and all we have then is the noise of explosions.
Geez, to think a friend was going to catch that train but fell asleep....gives me goosebumps.
I'd be willing to bet good money the ETA has nothing to do with it. Anyway, Spain is a supporter of the Iraqi invasion and it seems likely to be a target of Al Qaeda, especially since Bin Laden has declared Spain an official target.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was Al Qaeda that was responsible for this.
yea, the Spanish police just found a van with bomb detonators and arabic-language tapes, according to CNN.
This is terrible. I heard the report last night, I'm hoping the groups(s) responsible can be identified and brought to justice as soon as possible. There was some speculation that it was ETA, but they've been relatively low-key lately... I wonder.
Yay, so that just leaves 87% of the world's terror organizations! =DQuote:
yea, the Spanish police just found a van with bomb detonators and arabic-language tapes, according to CNN.
And although this is indeed terrible, I'm afraid it's still only ther brink of the ice-berg. Europe will continue to suffer for its impotence, untill they decide to finally fight the cancer within them, and even outside their boundries.
If it's Al Quaeda, Spain will have such an uprage of fury against the central goverment Aznar will crap his pants. If it's ETA, we'll have it controlled, but those a$$holes at PP will win again the elections on sunday.
If it's Al Quaeda, Spain is going to werak havoc...we still have a lot of hate for what Aznar did, and if now this people at Atocha actually died because of that decision 91% of the population oposed to...well...I see violent protests, and a whole lot of problems.
If Spain goes to war, I only hope the US backs you. Spain was there for the US all the way, so returning the favor is the least that we could do. The UN already fulfilled its role in the matter, and swiftly passed a resolution, it's cover-all response to any issue these days. Spain should fight back, and this time, more of Europe should get involved. After all, it's one thing not to get involved when the crisis is across the Atlantic, but another when the crisis is at your neighbors.
A war? Against who? If Spain goes to war...um...what will we use? 1950 handguns? Slingshots? Medieval swords? Headbangs? There's no war, but I'll tell you what I fear:
During the Iraq war, Spain supported US, going against the will of 91% of the population. Of course, this lead to great frustration, and to violent attacks against Partido Popular buildings(governing party) and members, leaving one of them wounded in the hospital. Rage was very strong, and even if most people were against such attacks, some angered idiots decided to even attempt to burn some PP buildings and break the windows. More? El Corte Inglés, famous chain of shopping malls, got pillaged once. And yes, I was there, not breaking into the mall stealing what I could, of course, I was there getting royally pissed at those turds that were doing that. Of course, I left the demonstration, I don't want to be associated to such a bunch of idiotic barbarians.
OK, now, seeing this in the case of a war with people that died thousands of kilometers away...just think for a moment if Aznar's support to USA had lead to Al Quaeda attacks on our land. All the wrath unleashed against the goverment during the war, only like...ten times larger. And I fear what may come from that if such a rage uproar ever happened, who would put order? I doubt such revolution would actually have a function asides from destroying all PP, and hell, I hate PP with all my body and soul, but I don't want to hurt them, not physically, at least. What could come from this? The best would be great political inestability, next civil disorder, followed by revolution (Negative one) or, in the worst of the cases, coupe or civil war, and thats being really catastrophists, but...trust me, NEVER underestimate the stupidity of the people in this country. I wrote a long topic on another board about the degeneration and impending political chaos in Spain, I can paste it if someone is interested, but it's fairly long and explains the current situation from facts that happened back in 1931.
Edit: Oh, the king did a breif speech on TV, directed to the Spanish people. It may sound normal, but truth is the king never interferes in anything unless the situation is extreme. Last time he was on TV, it was on 1981, when Tejero atempted a coupe d'etat. I'd say this is the worst moment of political instability since that time...Christ I hate this country...but well, I'm still keeping the calm, yet some people I know are quite hysterical. I just prefer to think this happens everyday (Killings, I mean) and well...this just happened closer, but going nuts over it will not solve things.
just think for a moment if Aznar's support to USA had lead to Al Quaeda attacks on our land. --Shadow Nexus
A group of people leaving their homes one day, putting bombs on trains, and pushing the button to explode them led to people dying. That is where the blame lies. A government supporting the US doesn't magically force people to commit murder. Place the blame where blames lies. You can't just view terrorists as an unavoidable part of the world. If people blame your government, then people are idiots.
Of course Al Quaeda is to blame directly for the attacks, thats preety obvious, anbd worries me too, it's not like there's not enough anti-ismlamism and racism in this nation to actually have more.
And then, the goverment made of Spain an objective for supporting US in war, and I must remind you all the massive concentrations held against such actions. So yes, they have a part in all of this.
Yes.Quote:
then people are idiots
Maybe if the US weren't gallivanting off around Iraq and trying to wait and catch Bin Laden in time for the elections, this might not have happened. WHatever the right way to fight terrorism may be, it's pretty obvious our current techniques worldwide aren't working so well.
And for the record, I don't think we should call Al Qaeda a terrorist group anymore. Terrorism at least has the one not redeeming but at least less dishonorable quality of fighting for a cause of freedom. Al Qaeda is just a group of mass murderers. Terrorists use violence as a political tool. Al Qaeda has no political goals. They just murder. This should be a police matter.
When something bad happens, always point the finger at the US. The US is the source of all evil in the world. Of course.Quote:
Originally posted by eestlinc
Maybe if the US weren't gallivanting off around Iraq and trying to wait and catch Bin Laden in time for the elections, this might not have happened. WHatever the right way to fight terrorism may be, it's pretty obvious our current techniques worldwide aren't working so well.
Well, we have a lot of responsibility in the world as its sole superpower. When we screw something up, it has big repercussions.
>>> I think it was Al Qaeda.
1. If this is ETA then it has nothing to do with the US war on terror so lets keep our arrogant and frankly pesimistic opinions to ourselves for the moment.
2. a country of 60 million people and one man with a bomb do you know how easy it is do this kind of thing, as the IRA said
"we only have to be lucky once, you have to be lucky all the time"
This time, for once in my life, no, I don't blame the US :p Well, of course, if CIA had never trained Bin Laden, Al Quaeda would not exist as it is now, but well, leaving all those things asides, if it has been Al Quaeda (Not ETA) the fault lies, first in Bin Laden, for doing such a horrible operation, and next lies on Aznar, for giving Bin Laden a reason to act against our country.
And if it's ETA, the first blame falls into ETA and Sabino de Arana (The guy that created Basque naZionalism in the XIXth century) and then to our dear goverments that could have solved this trout long ago, but see a lot of PRECIOUS VOTES in terrorism (Yes, it is sad). Oh, well, and Franco, he's resposbale for the creation of ETA anyway.
What scares me more now is the uprise of dumbass patriotism happening in my country. I can see this spanish flag with black ribbon on the corner of all the national TV channels (Regional ones from communities that want independence only have black ribbons, something I believe is much better than having flags arround, since flags have a political meaning). That does not nmean more union here, it means more division: Racism agaiunst immigrants, pressure against sectors of the country with lot of independentists (This are two sectors: Basque country and Catalonia, I live in the second one). This means, again, the rise of radicalisms, probably violence, and just general idiocy. If things continue degenerating, I'm leaving this country, it's sick.
So you think that this will lead to Spain backing off on its support of the US?
THOSE VICTIMS ARE DEAD BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANTED.
Well, it's most definitely Al-Quaeda (or some other affiliated group), with aid from radical personnel from ETA. That is, the mind behind the whole thing is a pan-Islamic organization (most probably Al-Quaeda, for reason of compatible working methods), and they recieved help from radical members of the now dormant and almost disbanded ETA.
ETA denies any connection (and indeed, the 'formal' ETA probably had nothing to do with this) because it doesn't serve their interests. ETA, unlike Islamic terror organizations, has specific goals to achieve. Its bombings were always pretty accurate, against Spanish military and goverment targets. A bombing like the one that occured in Madrid is simply not their style, and would do them and the Basques (or however their name is spelled) more damage then help. That is because they are no longer legitimate, much like the IRA - the Basque populace itself no longer supports them, because they have achieved their goals, or at least reached a compromise (the Basque autonomy in Spain and the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland) by peaceful means.
And anyone saying this happened because Spain supported the USA in its war on terrorism is a self-deluded impotent fool. It happened because Spain is a democratic, Christian, western nation. That's it. No other reasons beyond these ones exist.
They're also bitter about that whole expelling the Moors thing. Remember, they live out there in the Land that Time Forgot.
...And if Spain hadn't backed the invasion of Iraq, then the US would've punished them with trade restrictions and by denying them the right to administer humanitarian aid in post-war Iraq.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Someone's going to hate you, either way.
But anyway, ETA has been fairly vociferous about denying responsibility; most likely this was the act of outsiders, possibly aided by a select few local contacts.
There has been a tape released, ostensibly from Al Qaeda, claiming responsibility, but it hasn't been verified yet to my knowledge. It includes catchy clogans like "you love life, we love death".
Um, I believe that they're actually called "the Moops." It says right here on the card. [/seinfeld]Quote:
Originally posted by Doomgaze
They're also bitter about that whole expelling the Moors thing. Remember, they live out there in the Land that Time Forgot.
Big D: The US wouldn't be "punishing" Spain. The US is it's own country , and it can choose to trade with whoever it wants. It has no obligation to trade with every other country in the world, although a lot of people think that they are.
The US "punished" France and Germany in this way, and Bush used the word "punish" to describe its actions; also, the exlcusion of those countries from the rebuilding and aid programmes in Iraq was a pretty blatant move. The US is always pushing for "free trade", just so long as it isn't bound by the rules it wants everyone else to follow...Quote:
Originally posted by DocFrance
Big D: The US wouldn't be "punishing" Spain. The US is it's own country , and it can choose to trade with whoever it wants. It has no obligation to trade with every other country in the world, although a lot of people think that they are.
but that's beside the point.
Even after the IRA disbanded, there were plenty of rogue elements left, these groups considered themselves the 'true' IRA and continued the violence. So even if a group like ETA agrees to stand down, others are going to keep murdering for largely the same cause. Another dangerous side-effect of the present situation is the threat of retaliatory action. Already, a police officer has been arrested for murdering a Basque shopkeeper who refused to hang a black ribbon in his shop as a mark of respect for the fallen. He was known to have links to an activist youth group, and that's why his unpleasantness was met with such violence. Hopefully we won't get the same situation that arose in the US after September 11, 2001, where numerous Muslims, Arabs and Sikhs became the targetes of hatred just for belonging to the "wrong" culture... suspicion and fear like that can easily tear a nation apart if it's not resovled quickly.
Yes, thats the end of support: According to Zapatero, he is going to wait to June for things to get settled, and make the troups return.Quote:
So you think that this will lead to Spain backing off on its support of the US?
THOSE VICTIMS ARE DEAD BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANTED.
And maybe thats what the terrorists wanted, yes, the fact Spain would end US support. But thats what 91% of the Spanish population wants too, and that explains who won the elections. If you think the general feeling of the people towards the US goverment is positive, you're preety wrong. In fact, the Spanish opinion tends to be quite opposite to US. But well, the goverment does whatever they want, at least the last one did. I hope this one is better...
...well, it WILL be better. It has to, it can't be worse. The repression and criminalization of the oposition in this last four years has been extreme, our goverment did whatever they wanted, giving no chance for dialogue at all, plus the extreme manipulation of public television, that lead the EU to denounce the president. Did you know even our king had to phone Aznar to tell him to stop lying about the Al Quaeda attack?
ETA are terrorists, but even if they are still asassins, I am sure they would never do something not even as half as barbaric to what happened. ETA always warns before detonating a bomb so the police can take people out, yet sometimes they announce the explosion later than it is actually programmed, trying to kill one or two policemen. The other thing they do is to shoot people, determinate objectives, just plain dirty asassination.Quote:
ETA denies any connection (and indeed, the 'formal' ETA probably had nothing to do with this) because it doesn't serve their interests.
However, no, even if they are dirty people, this mass murder is far away from their style. The only comparable thing was in 1993, in Hipercor, a bomb killed 20. Such attack lead to an interior conflict in the terrorist group, since most of them proclaimed such attack was against their philosophy because it was aimed at "innocents" (Well, I think all their victims are innocent, except for Carrero Blanco). So that made many members of the group to be kicked off. As you can see, it's not their style, they are horrible, yes, asassins, yes, but they would never get that far. And if they say they didn't do it, I'm inclined to believe them: ETA may be monsters, but they are not liars.
Yes, of course, except that all the videos and letters from Al Quaeda refered to this attacks as a revenge for supporting US. Also, Spain is not a christian nation, according to the constitution, we are not religious. Also, the past goverment was Catholic (Lots of Opus Dei...*vomits*) but the new one is mainly formed by atheists and agnostics, and some moderate christians.Quote:
And anyone saying this happened because Spain supported the USA in its war on terrorism is a self-deluded impotent fool. It happened because Spain is a democratic, Christian, western nation. That's it. No other reasons beyond these ones exist.
Or not. I can't understand how Aznar supported Bush when three million people in the street shouted "No to war". However, Chile, for example, opposed to war but did not get punished. The difference here is that Chile had no interests in Iraq, so they just said they thought there were other ways of solving the problem in Iraq and backed off, but without making a lot of noise. Same with Mexico, I believe. France and Germany, however, attempted to stop Bush, and thats what made Dubya pissed.Quote:
...And if Spain hadn't backed the invasion of Iraq, then the US would've punished them with trade restrictions and by denying them the right to administer humanitarian aid in post-war Iraq.
Well, I'm afraid racism here exists since before the attacks. Did you know what our defense minister, Federico Trillo, said when leaving the microphone on? That he would send immigrant soldiers to Iraq, because if they were killed, people would not care so much. Yes, it is sad, but thats how things are going.Quote:
Hopefully we won't get the same situation that arose in the US after September 11, 2001, where numerous Muslims, Arabs and Sikhs became the targetes of hatred just for belonging to the "wrong" culture... suspicion and fear like that can easily tear a nation apart if it's not resovled quickly
I also hate how the past goverment attempted to promote patriotism here. After all, the last goverment descended from those fascists in the dictatorship, and trust me, this ones are not too different, only they are more...uh...democratic (Meaning better make up). I think PP forgot Spain is not like USA, here we come from a fascist dictatorship that prosecuted anyone who didn't feel proud of the flag, here we HATE THE DAMN FLAG. Actually, most people that come from other countires can't understand it, but hell, Spain is a divided nation, we are not all "united under one flag under god" or whatever, we are all disgregated and tired of flags. Yet the goverment put a gigantic flag in Columbus Square and said they would do a little ceremony in the honor of the flag every month. Obviously, the public opinion, specially from Catalonia and Basque country, shouted against it and they had to suspend the ceremonies. Good thing, the first one (and only) was pathetic enough, with Trillo shouting "HAIL SPAIN, HAIL THE KING". God, our king was probably laughning his ass off. A friend from Madrid told me that gigantic flag was now hanging in half pole, and that it touched the floor. "Of course, the floor was all clean with dirt, dog shˇt and drunk man puke and the flag had to come and litter it"- and those were my friend's words.
God, they should just know Spain will never be united, Spain has developed through history as different communities, we are different cultures and mentalities, even different languages. How do you expect to unite them all?
Please don't get around the swear filter. --Unne
Sad that Spain is going to leave Iraq now. I hate to think that a government would submit to the whims of terrorists. But you say the majority of the population in Spain opposes being in Iraq, and I don't know whether that's due to fear or something else, so who knows.
God, they should just know Spain will never be united, Spain has developed through history as different communities, we are different cultures and mentalities, even different languages. How do you expect to unite them all?
Same is true of any country. Certainly true of the US, but we get along fine as one nation.
Actually, it was in their program. Zapatero promised to make the troops return if he won, and that was far before the terrorist attack.Quote:
Sad that Spain is going to leave Iraq now. I hate to think that a government would submit to the whims of terrorists.
Well, we oposed to war to begin with, so obviously we never wanted trhe troups there. And now, yes, add fear, if we already didn't like them there (Thats why PP lost the elections) we have yet another reason to make them return. Now that Aznar is rotting in his house, it's time to fix all the things he did governing against us, and I am not talking only about the war, he screwed many things inside Spain too....god, the country is a ruin...Quote:
But you say the majority of the population in Spain opposes being in Iraq, and I don't know whether that's due to fear or something else, so who knows.
Would Zapatero have won the elections if it weren't for the bombings? If 91% of Spaniards wanted their troops out of Iraq anyway, it seems to me as if the bombings wouldn't have made much difference to the election results. Just a thought. So I guess you could say that the bombings were a way for Al Qaeda to take credit for splitting the US-Spain alliance, which probably wouldn't have lasted much longer anyway...
Same situation here in Philippines. I love the country, the people and the places, BUT I REALLY HATE THE SERIOULY DIRTY POLITICS!Quote:
Originally posted by Dr Unne
Sad that Spain is going to leave Iraq now. I hate to think that a government would submit to the whims of terrorists. But you say the majority of the population in Spain opposes being in Iraq, and I don't know whether that's due to fear or something else, so who knows.
God, they should just know Spain will never be united, Spain has developed through history as different communities, we are different cultures and mentalities, even different languages. How do you expect to unite them all?
Same is true of any country. Certainly true of the US, but we get along fine as one nation.
My regrets on Madrid, Nex.
Hope the country won't be swallowed by the chaos. Good luck and competent policy, friendship and strength in adversity, peace in the heart of the living.
I think the bombings benefited Zapatero. The polls said the things were 50/50, but the attack revived the frustration of the war and the show of manipulation.Quote:
Would Zapatero have won the elections if it weren't for the bombings? If 91% of Spaniards wanted their troops out of Iraq anyway, it seems to me as if the bombings wouldn't have made much difference to the election results. Just a thought. So I guess you could say that the bombings were a way for Al Qaeda to take credit for splitting the US-Spain alliance, which probably wouldn't have lasted much longer anyway...