why does the french have to be the scapegoat?

Of all the people who have opposed the Iraq war, it seems that the French got hit the hardest with political insults. Sure Germany and Canada got a criticized but that disappeared , leaving only the French as the remaining scapegoat.

The French has been victims for such a long time, WWI, WWII, cold war and now this. I mean Germany opposed the war, and I don't see the U.S. government calling hamburgers krautbread or something.

Japan opposed the war as a majority of the citizens protested against going to U.S. going to Iraq.
I don't see the U.S. government insulting them.

It doesn't make sense, why does France get the worst of America's grumpy side?? Alot of the times I have been seeing people in forums saying "french this" and "french that".

Hearing about other opposing nations is considered rare when comparing with France.

Bottom line:

Why France??

Well, there are a few reasons, though they are pretty pety. A lot of Americans hold a grudge against France for their well-known attitude towards Americans (though the question here is, who hated who first?) and because of what they saw as an act of cowardice during WWII (though they ignore that France was not the only country to surrender without struggle, though France had the largest forces of those that did).

Scapegoats are always the easy way out. Disliking someone is the easiest thing to do, giving everyone a common 'enemy' is a good rallying factor. When people protest something, the easiest thing to do is make them look foolish, then who in the right minds would listen to them? It's pretty lame, and I really don't care about the French (and I agree with them fully on this Iraq nonsense). The only part that bothers me is that France refuses to help even after everything America did for them (especially all the post-war aid), but they do have a good reason, after all.

So far as I know, France and Germany were the most outspoken in being officially against us with the whole Iraq thing. France is also a veto power in the UN, right? And France and Germany are some of our closer allies, I assume. But I don't really know. That's why people were upset with them, so far as I know. And people were certainly as upset with Germany as with France. As far as the whole "freedom fries" thing is concerned, God only knows.

I read this one article in American Heritage once that said something about our relationship being very passionate. When they like us, they love us, and when they don't like us, they hate us, and vice versa, I suppose. Of course, lately, it's been all hate, but hey, I'm sure in the next decade or so the tide'll change.

As far as why France: Uh...that's the breaks?

I just hate france

Critizize England and Spain too, people oposed war there.

And well....people go against France for a very obvious reason: They call "breakfast"..."petit dejuneur". And that sounds very annoying. Thats why, when I become ruler of the world, will destroy everything French, starting with the awful Le Figaro and finishing with all the wonderful painting and literature. Sure, sure, La Madeleine, Paul Gauguin, Manet, Notre Damme, all wonderful, yes, but...petit dejuneur...I don't know even if I wrote it well, but it sounds annoying.





Death to everytihng French. Oh, yeah, they conquered us like 200 years ago, and I'm stil angry, I demand for reperation!


Note: All above is sarcasm. Well, I think petit dejuneur sound annoying, but "prune" sounds more annoying. Let's destroy the anglosaxon.

As stated before I thik it's because they have been a close allie to the US since the revolluion. Also we helped them in WWI and WWII. They also changed all things German durring WWII so like hamburgers were called something else durring that time. It's just somehting our government likes to do.

As others have stated, both France and America have had a very flippant friendship, with plenty of twists and turns. I think our current reckoning for blaming France is, like TheAbominatrix said, purely a petty form of vanity, jealousy, or perhaps we Americans just don't like being looked down upon by anyone. Call it the chip-on-the-shoulder syndrome we always possess. It works in our favor because it motivates us to excel, but can also make egos even bigger, which can only lead to bickering. I think if push came to shove, America and France would still be allies. Their relationship sort of reminds me of a sibling rivalry, and right now, both are teenagers. Hopefully, soon, both will grow up, stop the bickering and realize that we need each other, as we need many more countries then we've previously seemed to.

Take care all.

I thought it was because some Americans are loud-mouthed bigots.

Aww, come on... the French are bastards. I mean... really.

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or perhaps we Americans just don't like being looked down upon by anyone

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As far as my experience goes, latin countries are the ones that look down upon USA more. So blame them.

On the other hand, I don't believe people in USA are jealous of France, seriously, as far as my experience goes, both USA and France are the most vanidous countries in the modern world. In other words, it has too many people saying "France/USA is the best country in the world". Well, China probably has more for obvious reasons, but I think you get my point.

On the other hand, for some things that patriotism isn't so evil. Just for example, here there's the typical dialogue between two Spaniards, talking about how horrible the high speed train that has been build is (It came two years later and it's 30% slower than it should be):

- What do you think of the AVE? Aint it awful?

-Heh, why? This is Spain, we are supposed to do things wrong and late.

-AHhhahahah! Yeah!




:rolleyes2

I don't think it's that big of a deal. We really haven't done anything to France, and all the light anti-French sentiment is coming from the people. And trust me, it is light. It's not like I hear someone say "God, I hate those French bastards" once an hour. And we're definitely not rounding up French citizens and sending them to concentration camps.

And the "freedom fries" is a reference to World War II, when we began calling saurkraut "liberty cabbage." I think the freedom fries joke was started by Jay Leno or some other stand-up. And it really is just a harmless joke.

It all boils down to one thing:

Jerry Lewis.

They took the best half of the Martin-Lewis duo, and when they were done with him, they gave him back to us, unwacky, unfunny, and unwilling to do anything but MDA telethons...

THAT'S why we hate France.

Touche`!

Take care all.

Yeah, I think we are outspoken against them just because we all know how much France hates the US.

I was having a conversation about this with someone the other day.. why do they hate us so much? He had a good point, I suppose. They love American culture... the music, the celebrities, and especially the movies. They have this self-loathing guilt about liking American culture, so when they're not watching our movies, they need to hate us.

I just don't get it. I mean, we helped them out a lot in the past, and they helped us out. Strange.

Since when does France hate the US? Paris doesn't count. Parisians hate everyone else.

"Bonjourrrrr, you cheese-eating surrender monkeys" - Groundskeeper Willie

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." - General George S. Patton

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." -Norman Schwartzkopf

"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it." - Marge Simpson

There is also that joke, "I have a french rifle for sale. Never fired, dropped once."
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They walk around with their noses up in the air while other people have to bail them out and fight for them. That's why people don't have much respect for France, when times get hard they lay down.

As much of the world does as well. Still, France seems to be the target of some wonderful negative propaganda, especially in America. We're esentially programmed to dislike the French or be indifferent to them, and as to why, I just don't know.

Take care all.

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Originally Posted by Cid

They love American culture... the music, the celebrities, and especially the movies.

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Um...

They do? Cause...well...personally I believe the French movies tend to be better. Well, in USA there's people like...Tim Burton, Orson Wells or Ridley Scott (In his good times) among others. But generally, French cinema tends to be far better than the latest Hollywood blockbuster. Of course, there is a lot of crap in both industries, but you know what I mean.

However the best time for French cinema was the Nouvelle Vague. Ah, Truffaut...

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"Bonjourrrrr, you cheese-eating surrender monkeys" - Groundskeeper Willie

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." - General George S. Patton

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." -Norman Schwartzkopf

"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it." - Marge Simpson

There is also that joke, "I have a french rifle for sale. Never fired, dropped once."

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Um...do you realize you may offend someone with that? I mean, I could start making jokes about Americans, and you'd probably be pissed at me. And I have a lot of American jokes :D

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Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus

Um...do you realize you may offend someone with that? I mean, I could start making jokes about Americans, and you'd probably be pissed at me. And I have a lot of American jokes :D

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You mean he might *gasp* offend someone? Heaven forbid that what he says might hurt the feelings of someone else! I think I'm going to go cry silently in my room. Thanks a lot, you've offended me.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus

Um...do you realize you may offend someone with that?

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I was pointing out how and why people don't like France, notice how it all revolves around their willingness to surrender? But, whatever.

Shh... you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

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You mean he might *gasp* offend someone? Heaven forbid that what he says might hurt the feelings of someone else! I think I'm going to go cry silently in my room. Thanks a lot, you've offended me.

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Oh, does that mean I am completly free to attack nationalities and ideologies all I want? Thats great cause many of my opinions are politically and economically incorrect, so I have to be caerful when choosing words, but hey, no problem, since from now on I can insult all I want!!! Woohoo!!! :D

Go for it.

I dont see anyone whining about Denmark's surrender during WWII.

So the French don't want to commit their young men to die in a war that isn't theirs or they cannot win? Heaven forbid.

Perhaps the Americans should remember, then, that without the French the U.S. would probably have the Queen on its coins.

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So the French don't want to commit their young men to die in a war that isn't theirs or they cannot win? Heaven forbid.

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Exactly.

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I dont see anyone whining about Denmark's surrender during WWII.

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Denmark did not submit to Nazi rule the way France did. For example, Denmark's resistance group was perhaps the most active in all of Europe, while France's fabled 'la resistance' did close to nothing. Denmark held a philosophy, that by not fighting against their ultimately powerful foe (since Denmark was small, and Grmany wasn't), it could save the lives of its citizens. And indeed, for example, almost all of Denmark's Jews were saved. While France was a large and strong nation, that had no reason to fall on its knees like that.

It had every reason to fall to it's knees like that. They couldnt win. And I'm not saying anything bad about Denmark... I find it very brave to consider your own people over fighting an impossible war. Should France have fought back? Probably, yes. But they didnt. And even if they had, it probably wouldnt have done much.

Not to mention that it happened over 50 years ago.

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And even if they had, it probably wouldnt have done much.

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Aside from Germany at that time, France and Britain were the strongest nations in Europe. France's war-effort could've proved to be very helpful. Alas, they surrendered.

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Not to mention that it happened over 50 years ago.

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So? What's 50 years? A generation and a half. My grandparents are old enough to remember it all perfectly.

There's also the fact that a large portion of France (known as Vichy France) actually corroborated with the Nazis, by sending French Jews to the death camps, using their factories to produce weapons for the German armies, and even allowing their own men to be drafted into the German armies. Yes, this was all at the will of the people of Vichy France, who wanted no more than to stay warm and safe in their homes. And that, ladies and gentlemen, was a huge show of cowardice in the eyes of many other nations.

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Originally Posted by DocFrance

Go for it.

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Nah, I'd get banned, I nearly got banned for puting a Gaugin painting on my sig...

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There's also the fact that a large portion of France (known as Vichy France) actually corroborated with the Nazis, by sending French Jews to the death camps, using their factories to produce weapons for the German armies, and even allowing their own men to be drafted into the German armies. Yes, this was all at the will of the people of Vichy France, who wanted no more than to stay warm and safe in their homes. And that, ladies and gentlemen, was a huge show of cowardice in the eyes of many other nations.

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Wow, well, if people did that, then we can easily conclude that all of France are cowards. And all Americans are patriots and fat. And all Spaniards like bull fighting. And all Palestines blow themselves up. And anyone who arrives to the conclusions I just showed is a simple-minded individual.


Plus, may I add that France is also the place where I find some of the moments in history I find more admirable. 1789, anyone? 1830, read Les Miserables, seen Delacroix paintings? 1848, anyone read Marx? 1968, Sartre, Marcuse, Focault, Deleuze...

Well, that. Not everything about them is that bad. Petit dejuneur is, though. ARGH!

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Originally Posted by War Angel

Denmark did not submit to Nazi rule the way France did. For example, Denmark's resistance group was perhaps the most active in all of Europe, while France's fabled 'la resistance' did close to nothing. Denmark held a philosophy, that by not fighting against their ultimately powerful foe (since Denmark was small, and Grmany wasn't), it could save the lives of its citizens. And indeed, for example, almost all of Denmark's Jews were saved. While France was a large and strong nation, that had no reason to fall on its knees like that.

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Come here and tell that to the few remaining people who were part of the Resistance. Then I might take you seriously.

Let's talk about Belgium. Had they had decent commanders, maybe, just maybe, using something other than treaties to defend its borders, maybe the Germans wouldn't have reached France in 2-3 days. WE French and British defended what was left of Belgium and ended in Dunkerque (Dunkirk) where we got the Brits escaped at the expense of the loss of our troops. I mean, gee, if you're going to bash my country, check your facts. We got raped and razed by the Blitzkrieg, our commanders were trout on that. Maginot Line? Don't make me laugh. We expected Germans to fight a WWI kind of war, and they caught us "with our pants down". Once the Germans reached Paris and surrounded it, the choice was: surrender or face a siege, and at that point, we didn't have what it takes to face a siege anymore. The "surrender" myth about France comes from the Collaboration, not the surrendering to the Germans. Pétain thought he could buy favors from Germany by overdoing his "job", and we still have scars from that.

Also, a lot of people in France at that time didn't fight the Jewish deportation because they were told by the Gov't/Hitler what they wanted to hear: that the Jews were responsible for the troubles of Europe etc..., and even more because they were simply scared of the price they'd have to pay for it (be deported/killed/...). Only a small minority was actively antisemitic. Not everyone. Come and tell my grandparents to their face that because they came out alive from WWII while living in Paris, they have to be pro-nazi/cowards/antisemitic.

nb: It's "petit-déjeuner"

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Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus

Plus, may I add that France is also the place where I find some of the moments in history I find more admirable. 1789, anyone? 1830, read Les Miserables, seen Delacroix paintings? 1848, anyone read Marx? 1968, Sartre, Marcuse, Focault, Deleuze...

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I never said that all of France was bad. I was simply stating a fact about France during World War II. France definitely has a respectable culture. I lived in France for several years, and, while most of the people I met were snooty and rude, I generally enjoyed my time there. I try not to dwell on the past, so I base my views of the French on my experience.

It makes no sense to me why the French are stereotyped this way anyway. Even if you use the *flawed* argument that they have yet to win a war, you have to take into consideration, not only the Hundred Years War, and Napoleon, but also the fact that United Germany never has either. For my part I love France. The language, the culture. Even my hero (Voltaire) is French. I usually try to stand up for the French side in an argument, but (I'm probably stereotyping here, but I've seen enough of people like this around here that they're definatly not the minority) I live in the midwestern US and Patriotism and anti-French sentiment is pretty high here, and I find it most irritating.

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It's "petit-déjeuner"

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Even worse!

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while most of the people I met were snooty and rude

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Um...me too :D With that I must agree, generally people were preety rude.

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Even my hero (Voltaire) is French

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Erm...not him again. He's the kind of peedantic illustrated guy I never really liked, plus he followed Locke, while everyone knows Rousseau is The One. And Rousseau and Voltaire were not really friends, at least judging by the subtle things Rousseau speaks about Voltaire in The Social Contract (He dosen't mention him, but you know he's refering to Voltaire).

Of course, Rousseau abandoned his five children. But that dosen't make him evil, it makes him Manly and Cool, like Vin Diesel.

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Let's talk about Belgium.

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France mk. 2

Tehy are the 'scapegoat' (or as I would call it, object of ridicule), for a few reasons:

1: The French have consistantly been weak in this century. Ever since Napoleon, they have been giving off this vibe of "I'm scared, please don't hurt me." In fact, one of my favorite General Patton quotes is "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me."

2: The French are blatantly hipocritical. They critisize us for an action qhich directly killed something like 6,000 citizens at most, and saved millions in the long run, yet are responsible for the massacre of 800,000 Africans without flinching. Further, they were asking us to let negotionations work while they were violating the embargo and selling Iraq illegal weapons.

Just a few.

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at that point, we didn't have what it takes to face a siege anymore.

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Yeah, 'cause then, like, people would get killed, and stuff. Eeeewww, war.


Seriously though, I've got beefs with almost any European nation, especially during the time of the second world war. So, Frenchies, don't feel special. I hate everyone equally.

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2: The French are blatantly hipocritical. They critisize us for an action qhich directly killed something like 6,000 citizens at most, and saved millions in the long run, yet are responsible for the massacre of 800,000 Africans without flinching. Further, they were asking us to let negotionations work while they were violating the embargo and selling Iraq illegal weapons.

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:eek:

You mean France does EVIL THINGS!?!?!? Oh, thanks God USA is a wonderful country that cares about human rights, dignity, ecology and peace. And of course, it has a wonderful system that fights for the humanization of society, combats alienation and loss of objectives, along with instrumental reason. Thanks God USA exists as Pure Light to fight evil France, which is Absolut Darkness.

Now I have come to realize French people are undoubtely evil, because not only they say "petit-déjeuner"- the most annoying word in hsitory- but they have a country that does evil things.

I have them right above me, I'll go to Perpinyan and pee on their doors. Ha! Take that, you petit-déjeuners!!!

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You mean France does EVIL THINGS!?!?!? Oh, thanks God USA is a wonderful country that cares about human rights, dignity, ecology and peace. And of course, it has a wonderful system that fights for the humanization of society, combats alienation and loss of objectives, along with instrumental reason. Thanks God USA exists as Pure Light to fight evil France, which is Absolut Darkness.

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That's a Red Herring/Ad Hominem Tu Quoque Fallacy. Come back later.

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I have them right above me, I'll go to Perpinyan and pee on their doors. Ha! Take that, you petit-déjeuners!!!

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I am French, dumbass.

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That's a Red Herring/Ad Hominem Tu Quoque Fallacy. Come back later.

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Nah, I wasn't trying to make an argument, I was just trying to be sarcastic. I knwo what ad hominem is, thank you, I know how to avoid it too, thank you, but there is quite a difference between trying to make an argument and that pseudo-trolling ^_^

When can I come back?

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I am French, dumbass.

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From Perpinyan? Then watch your door :D

I could only read about 1/2 this till people started attacking eachother. It sucks that the whole world doesn't get along. A French man once told me "the reason you americans hate us so much is because we are as arrogant as you are". This made a lot of sense at the time. So I tried giving them a chance at the England vs France Rugby finals. I let a french guy buy me a beer. Then I chatted with some. Then after they lost they caused a lot of trouble, or ran off on their tabs. My boss from England pulled one out of a trashcan (why he crawled in is beyond me), and the guy wiped his face paint on my boss's 200 dollar Jersey. I have yet to meet a frenchman who is kind to americans. Therefore I can understand where people would use them as a scapegoat

No matter what you say, you shouldn't stereotype a nation based on what one political leader does. Anyway, just a few thoughts I've had while reading this thread:

The German army was far, far, far superior to the French army. Yet the French army fought against them for a long time for the sake of other nations. France wasn't attacked, they declared war on Germany after Germany attacked Poland. Am I right? My history is rusty, but I'm sure that's what happened. I'd rather have a French army in front of me than an American army behind me, based on WWII. Let's look at it in perspective. You have five nations. Nation A attacks Nation B and pretty much wipes out their army. Nation C declares war on them, even though they don't have the strength to defeat them. Nation D decides to just mind his own business and carry on, because hey, he's weaker. Nation E is stronger, but does nothing.

Nation A is obviously the aggressor and is considered the enemy. Germany, in this case.
Nation B is obviously the victim, and is Poland.
Nation C is France.
Nation D is Denmark.
Nation E is America.

You could also say two strong adults, a medium built teen and two kids are in there. One strong adult attacks one kid, the teen fights the adult as best he can but loses, the other kid cowers in the corner (one might say sensibly) and the other adult just sits there and watches - no, I suppose you could say he cheers on the teenager as he gets beaten to a pulp, but what's that going to do?

The French fought as long as they could and they stood up for Poland. The US, for a long time, did nothing but give supplies. The armies didn't get involved until they themselves were threatened.

Of course, I'm not Anti-American either. Because I know that wasn't how every person thought. You can't exactly say that the average British person supported the war. I think we were pretty even with Germany and France with war-support - the only difference is that France and Germany's leaders chose not to go to war, and Britain's leader chose to go.

Just my thoughts, though. I actually think Americans are less liked by the international crowd than the French. Why? Hell, politics once again. Bush isn't exactly the most charismatic sod to grace the white house. :p

Oh, and Doc, regarding post #20: Don't be a prick (ie, don't try to wind people up in the same way any other troll would).

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Oh, and Doc, regarding post #20: Don't be a prick (ie, don't try to wind people up in the same way any other troll would).

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Heh. Sorry 'bout that. Just get tired of people being ultra-senstive *makes another topic*

Actually, I think the world would be a much better place if more countries were like the French, in that they sit on there derrieres, getting twatted on red wine and minding their own damn business.

Perhaps there is something to be set for letting a situation boil over by itself rather than inflaming it, resulting in a never ending cycle of violence and retribution.

I guess one can only dream...

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Originally Posted by Skogs

Actually, I think the world would be a much better place if more countries were like the French, in that they sit on there derrieres, getting twatted on red wine and minding their own damn business.

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Actually, France has its own dark issues in Africa too.

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Originally Posted by Skogs

Actually, I think the world would be a much better place if more countries were like the French, in that they sit on there derrieres, getting twatted on red wine and minding their own damn business.

Perhaps there is something to be set for letting a situation boil over by itself rather than inflaming it, resulting in a never ending cycle of violence and retribution.

I guess one can only dream...

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You mean like in Rwanda, when almost a million Tutsis were slaughtered in just a few months, because nobody did anything about it (not just France, but everybody? I agree - we should just sit back and stay out of others' business, at the risk of dirtying our hands a bit. But then the people who allow such crimes are no better than the ones who commit the crimes.

That goes for the every nation, not just for the so-called civilized, western nations who's 'duty' it is to teach the rest of the world how to behave.

Ack, I'm beginning to sound like John Lennon... :sweatdrop

I distinctly remember hearing on some History Channel program, or a PBS one, that the French actually had more tanks than Germany, and decent ones at that. I guess there's something to be said for blitzkrieg and the badass-ness of the Nazi's.

Oh, and France did declare war on Germany right after they attacked Poland, but they also sat on their ass for some months while Germany kicked the crap out of the Poles. Same for Britain. In the newspapers, it was called something like "The Make-Believe War," or around that. It wasn't until Germany strolled over and walloped France that everyone besides the Poles took it seriously.

I also believe that France and America are often at odds because we're both supremely arrogant. Of course, America has a reason to be, so HA! :D

EDIT: I remember it now. It was a book called A Short History of World War II which, ironically, was pretty long and detailed.

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Originally Posted by Skogs

Ack, I'm beginning to sound like John Lennon... :sweatdrop

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Imagine there's no countires....

[q="Rei"]Oh, and France did declare war on Germany right after they attacked Poland, but they also sat on their ass for some months while Germany kicked the crap out of the Poles. Same for Britain. In the newspapers, it was called something like "The Make-Believe War," or around that. It wasn't until Germany strolled over and walloped France that everyone besides the Poles took it seriously.[/q]

AKA the "Phony War," or the "Sietzkrieg" (I love that term, a play on words). During that time, the war was mostly fought at sea with German U-Boats and "Pocket Battleships" vs. the French and British navy. It lasted from after the fall of Poland until France was attacked in 1940.

As far as the French went in WWII, one might use inept to describe their conduct, but, probably not cowardly. They relied too much on the strategy of the Maginot line, and even used that incorrectly. The original plan for war with Germany called for the Maginot line to act as a "shield," which Germany couldn't cross, and for French and British armies to attack Germany from the north, in the Ardennes forest. However, when WWII started, Britain and France were unwilling to attack Germany, and Germany simply attacked France through the gap in the line where France was supposed to attack, quickly flanking the French, and taking Paris, ending the war for them. However, at this point, the Maginot line was actually still well defended and controlled by a fairly powerful French army; it's just that there was no France anymore for them to defend.

I think we can all stand to be a little bit more like John Lennon personally.. except for the whole Yoko 'thing'..

Take care all.

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Originally Posted by The Captain

I think we can all stand to be a little bit more like John Lennon personally.. except for the whole Yoko 'thing'...

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What, you mean dead?

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Originally Posted by Rei

I distinctly remember hearing on some History Channel program, or a PBS one, that the French actually had more tanks than Germany, and decent ones at that. I guess there's something to be said for blitzkrieg and the badass-ness of the Nazi's.

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If memory serves correctly, tanks did not win Germany the first half of World War II nor did they defeat the Nazi army - mass force did. Germany didn't blast it's way through almost all of Europe with just enough men to defend a country, it had a freaking huge Nazi army. Germany, more tanks or less tanks, defeated most of Europe because it had immense manpower. They wouldn't have made it as far as Spain if they had an average army. There's no denying that the Nazi army was one bloody good army.

"What, you mean dead?"

Close, but no cigar. Peace over war, and darn good music too.

Take care all.

Everybody wants peace, but sometimes there are things worth fighting for, such as peace and freedom.

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The German army was far, far, far superior to the French army.

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Not really. The French army was the fourth strongest in the world, and had modernized everything. The Germans were horribly outnumbered. It was the Frenches choice to just sit behind their Maginot line that caused their defeat, and their poor leadership that created their occupation.

Want some fun? Go to google, type in "French Military Victories" and hit "I'm feeling lucky".

France's biggest failure was that they were still set on the idea that trench warfare was still the key to winning an engagement. And that's really all the Maginot Line was - a giant trench. The Germans had come to embrace mobile warfare, and by proxy the blitzkrieg. All they had to do was make a bit of an effort to push their way through the Ardennes Forest (no one thought they'd have the cajones to do so) and France was pretty much theirs.

To be fair, the French probably didn't want to alienate the Low Countries by cutting them off from France with a supertrench. I suppose that the French expected the Ardennes to slow down Germany, as well as the Belgians, while they came around with their troops, IF Germany went that route.

Didn't Germany go through the Ardennes in WWI, too?

No they didnt, in fact, going through the Ardennes's forest was a very hard thing to do.The French considered it impossible for tanks to go through it, but the Germans managed to do it.

"Everybody wants peace, but sometimes there are things worth fighting for, such as peace and freedom."

True enough, but there are always consequences that often go overlooked when a fight starts, even for the most noble of cause. Ah, the fatal flaws of the human race, to want what we cannot ever truly achieve: peace. Yet, we can only hope to achieve it by its complete opposite: war. Or so it seems in this day and age. One day, I hope we advance beyond the need for war, but I fear that is far, far away.

Take care all.

As far as I understand (whilst a little off-topic) had the French 'stood up' to Hitler during the whole re-militarisation of the Rhineland scenario (which broke the Treaty of Versailles) Hitler would have been forced to back down because I believe in a history text-book I read a few weeks back there was a quote from Hitler admitting that had the French 'stood up' to him they would have been forced to retreat.

This can't really count as bitterness towards the French however, as France had it's own reasons (as did Britain) for not opposing Hitler then. Off this site the reasons were:

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Why didn't the Allies (Britain and France) respond?

• Internal political crisis in France
• No unified political leadership to concentrate against Nazi Germany.
• Britain generally supported the view that Germany was only going into her own "backyard".
• It was believed that Germany was behaving in a reasonable and understandable manner.
• Therefore, no action was taken despite Hitler's later comment that the march into the Rhineland had been the most nerve-racking 48 hours of his life.

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Of course that could be seen as another failure of the League of Nations, though after the Abyssinian and Manchurian disputes, that was pretty much nothing but a toothless guard dog.

I'm personally not bitter towards the French or any nations at all, though perhaps I'm "too young" to understand.

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Originally Posted by Killy

No they didnt, in fact, going through the Ardennes's forest was a very hard thing to do.The French considered it impossible for tanks to go through it, but the Germans managed to do it.

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They not only made it through the Ardennes once in 1940. They also pushed through it again in 1944 to begin the Battle of the Bulge.

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I'm personally not bitter towards the French or any nations at all, though perhaps I'm "too young" to understand.

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I am not bitter towards France for WW2 either. I was just answering the question that this thread was started on, not discussing whether they were right.

The only thing that really makes me pissed at the French is they had the gall to hold anti-American protests in the middle of American graveyards from WW2. The sites where our soldiers die freeing their country became a place for them to make a political statement. To that, I say f*** them.

You should have said "is they had de Gualle to hold..." It would have been a most delightful pun.

I doubt these were officially run by the french government or anything, either. I'm sure you realize that protestors can be idiots, and often are. That, sadly, is a symptom of any large group of people...

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Originally Posted by Doomgaze

You should have said "is they had de Gualle to hold..." It would have been a most delightful pun.

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What a horrible, horrible pun.