http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...224527235.html
Frankly, I'm disgusted.
Discuss.
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http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...224527235.html
Frankly, I'm disgusted.
Discuss.
Six. Not all. There are many soldiers who do their job honorably, and do it well. This is an example of a few grossly disturbed individuals out of thousands of men and women who do their jobs... I hope people don'taru use this as a reason to hate our troops.Quote:
The images have led to criminal charges against six American soldiers.
Christ almighty, that's bad. These guys are a disgrace, and I hope their punishment is swift and just - that is, if they are indeed guilty of these crimes.
Very well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taru-Waru
True. Only six have been charged - but others in the camp must have known. Aren't soldiers taught about the Geneva convention? I read that one of the 'guards' had never even heard of it. Not that the U.S. (or more specifically the Bush administration) cares about international agreements anyway...
yuo give a bunch of guys guns and powers with weak officers this is what you get.
Yeah, this happens. It's a sad fact that not all Americans live up to their heritage. But, of course, our troops are goin' to be branded sadistic bastards who are there just to take advantage of the noble, peace-loving Iraqi people, just like all Americans are.
On another note, I know the title of the thread is sarcastic, but it still bothers me. "America's Finest" shouldn't be thrown around.
The irony of that post is disturbing, Rei. I really hope it was intended, but something tells me it wasn't.
you mean killing innocent women and children with bombs. yes, i'll say they do that well. that's why there are so many suicide bombers. americans have kills their whole family and now they have nothing left to live for. so they kills themselves trying to take away other peoples family so they'll learn their lesson. i'd like to be over there to shoot those americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taru-Waru
That second part, with the "sadistic bastards," was full of something like irony, but everything else was, uh, honest. Perhaps I should have said "ALL of our troops blah blah blah" instead of just those sick few.
The sarcasm in your post implies that you're "branding" the Iraqi people as not peace-loving, and noble (as if they're all extremist suicide bombers), when in the same sentence you're saying it's wrong to brand all the American troops something based on the actions of few. See what I mean?
I have pictures of what was going on posted in my livejournal, which I wont link to because they're very grusome.
I do like, however, that we're quick to lump the Iraqi forces as a bunch of terrorist bastards, but so quick to exonerate the rest of America's troops from this disgusting display. Both groups have their good and bad people.
I almost vomited when I first saw the pictures of this. Thank God we went over there to stop Saddam from torturing his own people... I guess some of our own wanted their turn. If Iraq was doing this to our POWs, we'd be pitching quite a fit. So much for the Geneva convention... though, since when has anyone followed that, anyway?
I saw those photos in your LJ. It was disgusting and it put tears in my eyes to see something so horrible.
Who is exonerating anyone? Besides, I can't say it enough, but these are only six deranged individuals - NOT the entire American force!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
Ah, I see what you mean. I just had in mind the book series World War III by Ian Slater, where every communist country says something about U.S. imperialistic aggression against the freedom-loving peoples of whoever they are, when they're always the ones attacking. I've always liked the line, so I figured I'd throw it in. I probably should've said freedom fighters, or militia, or whatever the hell they call themselves, instead of "Iraqi people," so I wouldn't be insulting the whole of Iraq, but that's not how the lines in the books went.
I didn't know they beat a guy to death. Now I'm REALLY ashamed of how they acted. It's a pretty big jump to murderous rage, I feel.
What I'm saying is, when Iraqi forces do something bad, half of the country is up in arms about what terrorists they are. Evil people. No one bothers to care that, while yes some of them are very bad... some of them only wish to be free, from both Saddam and America. We invaded them, after all, not the other way around. But when American soldiers do something bad, we always get to the truth of the matter very quickly and calmly... that it's only a small part of the 'greater good'.Quote:
Originally Posted by DocFrance
And I never blamed the entire American force. In fact I said basically the same thing you did.
Six deranged members, plus another eleven implicated. Plus a blind eye turned by the rest of the people working there. Plus the fact that it's taken a year for this to come to public attention. I'd imagine that the rot sets deeper than you'd like to imagine. I'm not saying it's endemic, but I'd be willing to bet that it's not an isolated incident.
And I find it highly amusing to hear that these soldiers are not living up to their heritage. Solving all conflicts with war, marginalization of other cultures, cowboy diplomacy, double standards, international bullying. THAT is American heritage for you.
There are bad people everywhere but we as a nation try and do our best. There are other countries that have done alot more then tease/poke fun at/humiliate prisoners, remember that..
True. But these countries don't hold themselves to be bastions of the free world.
And that's relevant to this how? Whatever they do, we have no right to do anything like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
I guess I was refering to the romantic version that we Americans see in the mirror. You know, goin' to Europe to kick evil ass, fighting Communists in Korea and Vietnam, taking care of other countries, all that jazz. That's the heritage I was refering to. I KNOW it's, uh, idealized, but that's how most Americans view ourselves. We conveniently forget about our mistakes and vices and whatnot. Slavery, the American Indians, corrupt allies, and such, isn't part of the proud history we like to see.
And as soon as anyone turns the mirror on America itself they're branded as anti-American.
Of course. Only COMMIES would slander the name of America like that. Are YOU a COMMIE, Skogs? Huh?!
Amazing how quickly this board jumps on a story about soldiers doing bad things. How many positive stories do you see in the World Events section? I think I saw a glimpse of a positive story in the Eyes on Each Other with Tillman, but leave it to this board to twist it around.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
Good thing we have people like Skogs, who can sit in his house and criticize. It's not like he has to leave his family and protect a prison filled with people that have just been trying to kill you.
Hey Skogs, maybe you can point me to a country with a perfect history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skogs
That's funny, because I feel the exact opposite "on the other side of the fence," if you will. I feel like no one seemed to care when a few sickos desecrated American bodies on the streets of Fallujah, but everyone is up in arms when they find out that a few sickos have been mistreating POWs. Funny how that works.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
Well you're at this board too. When you find positive stories, post them. No one's against posting good things. But nice way to try and turn it around and make this some sort of 'we hate our troops' argument. If you think this needs to be ignored, there's something wrong with you. Post all the positive stories if you want. I'm happy to hear them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talus
I know I was very upset when that happened. However, that was on national news as it happened. This was covered up for a year and hidden. And don't compare them like one is worse than the other. What happened in Fallujah was horrible. It needed to be spoken of and covered, and it was. What happened in this POW camp is equally horrible, most especially because we're going to this country to liberate it's people. Again, we invaded them, not the other way around (not that it makes what they did to our soldiers okay, it certainly doesnt). Both stories deserve equal coverage and equal horror. But this current one was covered up for all this time, and is now being glossed over as only the six involved, not the entire prison. The grapevine is a fast source of info, I highly doubt the people that were directly involved were the only ones that knew.Quote:
That's funny, because I feel the exact opposite "on the other side of the fence," if you will. I feel like no one seemed to care when a few sickos desecrated American bodies on the streets of Fallujah, but everyone is up in arms when they find out that a few sickos have been mistreating POWs. Funny how that works.
I don't feel that they're equal, in Fallujah they killed and dragged innocent civilian contractors.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
In this case, soldiers brutilized an enemy that has or attempted to kill US soldiers.
Though both are wrong, I can point out which is more heinous.
Coverage in Fallujah was immediate because it was definite who the guilty party was.
In this case, a little something we call investigation usually comes first.
------------------------------
Having said that, the General's words best sum up how I feel.
"We're appalled. These are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down," --General Kimmitt
Yes, I must hate our troops because I think that torture is wrong. Do NOT accuse me of hating our troops because I hate this war. I despise this war, but I understand that every soldier on both sides is a person, and every soldier has a family and someone that cares about them. They're people. Every last one of them.
How do you know what these people were in jail for? And that's bull if you don't know who the guilty party is in this torture deal. They're in the freaking pictures pointing and laughing. Stop making excuses. And investigation does not incoporate the complete freeze of information.
Quote:
Like Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt very correctly stated:
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
I like the U.S. Military even less after seeing this. Although I've always been anti-military.
No excuse for this. War, or not.
EDIT: Although, after looking at it from an unbiased point of view, those troops were probably under massive stress, and they probably needed something to relieve some of that.
He almost makes it sound like 'corporate image' and 'public opinion' are greater losses than law and justice...Quote:
"We're appalled. These are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down," --General Kimmitt
but it's good that the top brass are reacting strongly to this matter.
However, the personnel involved will probably be court-martialled by a military tribunal, thus their guilt or innocence will ultimately be decided by the presiding officers' personal opinions of the troops.[q=DocFrance]I feel like no one seemed to care when a few sickos desecrated American bodies on the streets of Fallujah, but everyone is up in arms when they find out that a few sickos have been mistreating POWs. Funny how that works.[/q]"No-one seemed to care"? That's a bit of an oversight of the massive international condemnation of such terrorist acts, and the widespread public outpouring of support for the families of the murdered. However, it's getting to be quite common for the US to declare, "nobody loves us, everybody hates us!" as soon as the scales are tipped against them on one single matter. The entire (civilised) world deplores the brutal acts committed against innocents; however, we've come to know and expect that these extremists will be depraved and horrific. It's no surprise, only a constant source of revulsion. The US military, however, is supposed to be in Iraq to uphold freedom and international law, to release the citizens from the bonds of torture and cruelty... so it's just a little justified that we should all be concerned and afraid when those same acts are carried out by members of "Operation Iraqi Freedom".
Reminds me of the continuing farce of Guantanamo Bay: Prisoners captured on foreign soil, then deported to a non-US state, with loopholes and technicalities used as an excuse to deny the most fundamental freedoms afforded to prisoners... Then a denial that anything's being done wrong.
The American government is always the first to demand that human rights and freedoms be respected, but often very tardy when it comes to meeting those same standards itself. At least there's been a strong repsonse in this case.
Now, just to avoid the predicatable "omg terrorist die" response, I'll add the the majority of the military personnel in Iraq are doing a phenomenal job in the face of unreasoning opposition, and deeply divided public controversy, selflessly making sacrifices to benefit a people who're similarly divided in their support of the foreign armies. However, the presence of positives does not permit us to blindly dismiss blatant, intolerable acts by select individuals within those occupying forces.Unfortunately, this may only be the tip of the iceberg... but hopefully not. However, the US government is still in the process of admitting atrocities from Vietnam, after all these decades; let's hope that nothing more sinister arises from files about Iraq in the future. We've come a long way in the last few decades, it'd be terrible if things start to slip again.Quote:
Although, after looking at it from an unbiased point of view, those troops were probably under massive stress, and they probably needed something to relieve some of that.
I can tell you about first-hand accounts of what both sides of the Vietnam war did to POWs. How they got information out of them. Disgusting, vile, horrid acts. Rape, torture, murder, mutilation. And I know that, also from first hand accounts, that the stress and insanity of constant death made a lot of guys snap. Even those who didnt snap because so desensitized to the violence that it didnt matter. That's what happens in war.
However, it is not an excuse. Those Iraqi people that murdered those civilians... well I'm sure they were under a lot of stress! Just like our boys. But it doesnt make what they did okay. There is no justifaction for the actions of either the Iraqi torturers, nor the people spoken of in this article. No justification.
Though of course, my saying so will cause me to be branded as an anti-American terrorist. Well... if being against murder and torture makes me a communist, then sign me up.
And Big D, I loved everything you said. Thank you for saying it.
War is hell. People do bad things in war because war is a bad thing. This doesn't justify it though. Just proves how weak human beings are.
That being said, I agree with TheAbominatrix on the differentiation in coverage. This is a human rights violation just like the murder and desecreation of the contractors. No one has the right to do this, no matter who they are or what they represent. This is just a matter of somebody getting a bit too big for their britches, and if the people were fair, everybody running the POW camp would receive prison time. They all knew about it, making them all accessories.
I love and support this country and the troops that choose to defend it. However, I'm human far before I'm an American, and it's only to be expected that my support will lag when I find that my first line of defense is behaving in ways they're supposedly fighting against.
Marvellous quote, I hope it catches on. My turn to give thanks, for saying something that needs to be said.Quote:
Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon
I agree fully. Well said, fire.
By no means should the US military be judged by these people's actions. How the military reacts to this, and deals with them, that is what it should be judged upon.
Sick bastards.
Sorry, not too many constructive thoughts in my head while I'm looking at these.
Not neccessarily. How did these people GET to be in the army in the first place? Why did people guarding a prison have no training on the correct treatment of prisoners? That this was allowed to happen in the first place shows a failure on the behalf on the US military.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomgaze
Well, Skogs, those people may have got into the army, but maybe when they entered they were not expected to do things such as that.
Look it from another point, it is a war, people see horrible things, and you know that, and that creates violence, stress, that leads to atrocities, from both sides. This is in fact just another one, and nothing new, and again horrible, and I hope those people involved get a nice time in prision, yet however I suspect they will only fire them. I prefer not to believe the people who tortured know thought they would end up like that when they entered the military.
And still, well....I must say I am not surprised. Of course, I am an anti-american-commie-terrorist, but things such as this (And worse) happen in every war, and I know of some other stories you probably would not like to hear about (And THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE US!!! OMFG LMAO LOL RFLOMAO etc!!!).
And plus, there's still those Guantanamo prisioners. Of course, the violation of human rights is more extreme in this case, though.
I'd like to know if these prison guards had ever seen combat. Were these people that had snapped under pressure? Or were they sick individuals that got bored one day and decided to abuse their power? I'm truly curious about it.
$hit like this happen at every war, and at every conflict. Frankly, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more - American soldiers are out there, facing a very foreign and extremely hostile enemy, and that's very demanding and stressing. So, yeah... they made a guy stand a box, threatning that if he stepped down, he'd be electrecouted. That's not very nice... but how about, say, going into a village, and decapitating every single human there, and then hanging their headless bodies in the village square? What would you say to that? The fact remains, the USA has NEVER done such a thing (Not in recent history, anyway), while others have, and trying to find anacdotes like these... well, that's cute, but hardly a definitive image of what the American army is like.
These twisted freaks will be trialed and punished, and I'm pretty sure none of their friends will ever talk to them again.
And apparantly you have never read about the Mi Lai massacre, when US forces in Vietnam slaughted 300 (I believe that's the number) innocent women and children, spraying them with napalm. Decapitation is a far far more merciful act than having your body covered in napalm.
I don't see why everyone is so quick to write it off. Yes, it happens. And everytime it does, as a race we should be up in arms making sure in never happens again. And they did far more than make that man stand on a box. They forced these men to prefrom oral sex on eachother... actually, I'll just get the quotes that came with the pictures (which are too graphic to post here).
This 'well America only does this every so often so it's okay' stuff is making me ill. It's not okay when anyone does it. Whether it's daily or once every blue moon.Quote:
This Iraqi prisoner had electrical wires wrapped around his
arms, his legs, and his testicles. He was told that if he
stepped off the box, that he would be electrocuted.
They were forced to get up on one of another in a
pyramid, with bags over their heads.
They're in that pyramid, bodies stacked up on one
another, and those two soldier guards are grinning like it's
some big fun game to play with the prisoners.
They were forced to do oral sex on each other at
gunpoint.
A big, wide smile on the woman's face as she does a
thumbs-up and points at the exposed genitals of the Iraq
man with his two other prisoners sitting on the ground with
bags over their heads.
Again, there are the smiles and the thumbs-up gesture
while the Iraqi man huddles on the bodies of his other
prisoners in that pyramid.
This is the body of an Iraqi man who died of beatings at
the hands of the American soldiers.
i think we're missing the point here. It doesn't matter if you're pro-war, anti-war, quasi-America or pseudo-purple-sympathizer. This isn't about propaganda, it isn't about cultural assault, and it definitely isn't so superficial as a political bean-counting. No one should see in these pictures, first and foremost, American soldiers doing anything to Iraqi prisoners. i'm tired of hearing people package events like these into quaint little representations of "what happens when we march unfairly on Iraq" or "just another example of anti-war political maneuvering." Skogs posted the link to this article with a simple expression of disturbance and a request that we discuss the issue. What's the first response? A political defense. An immediately defensive stance on our troops relative to all the silly politics over which our nation has been enraptured for too long. i'm sick of people hearing things inherently in terms of political stance or as a function of left wing right wing pro oil sorta Bush anti evil sentiment. It isn't mere sentiment. It goes deeper than that. When i look at these pictures, i see an affront to human decency. It doesn't matter that it's Americans and Iraqis. If it were the other way around, i'd feel the same. It's just as offensive as the mutilated American bodies, and just as unfortunate. It isn't a matter of who killed whom or tally marks on our respective walls. Any time something like this happens, it should be a matter of immediate outrage. Not a question of the ethnicity of the last dead body that popped up on the television screen.
We're counting beans here. If all we can do in the face of simple inhuamnity is count beans, we're in trouble.
Wonderful, very well said indeed!
Take care all.
OK, checked Abominatrix's journal, and seriously, it is horrible to see they actually were smiling in those photographs.
Yeah, well, I guess I am like...so not surprised about it I can't share your feelings of surprise, I mean, just research on a little information on Guantanamo to see how things are there. And those photographs got to the outside, but I bet such abuses are still happening in some other place, the whole idea of war being clean and nice is quite ridiculous. The people who did that are just as atrocious as the ones they claim to fight against, the whole idea of Dubya's "This will be a monumental fight of good against evil" is absurd, cheap rethorical maniacheist crap to appeal to the minds of simple minded individuals that live in nice, shielded bubbles. Of course, most people today don't seem to believe in the whole maniacheist tale, I think Saint Agustin already did a very nice job throwing down all of Fortunato's arguments (By the way, I recommend to everyone the reading of that dialogue, amazing how a debate of the middle ages still has many relevance today.Quote:
I don't see why everyone is so quick to write it off. Yes, it happens. And everytime it does, as a race we should be up in arms making sure in never happens again.
Well, I hope at least this images will help people awaken from the whole politically correct war, nicely broadcasted through CNN as if it was some kind of reality show or action movie.
Big deal. That doesnt reflect 1000s of are troops it was only those handful of bad apples. An also lets just say that those terrorists and saddam loyalists would torture are soilders if they had the chance, or even kill them.An the general or what ever said he didnt, or wasnt told about the geneva convention, what a dummy.
Yeah that's a beautiful reaction to the fact that human beings have been tortured and killed. 'Big deal'. It is a big deal. This isnt a political issue of soldiers. Just because Sddam did it more doesnt make it okay. It's a human rights issue. If our boys had been tortured like this by Iraqi soldiers, we wouldnt be saying 'this doesnt reflect the rest of the Iraqi troops' or 'It's okay, no big deal'.Quote:
Originally Posted by noname
Why cant people look past what country or what side or whatever these people are from? How can you look at the pictures and not care?
And that General is full of it if he didnt know the Geneva convention. However... how much common sense does it take to know that forcing the prisoners to commit oral sex on eachother at gunpoint is not okay? Do soldiers... does anyone have to be told that beating a man to death, most especially a man unable to defend himself, is not okay?
[q=TheAbominatrix]And apparantly you have never read about the Mi Lai massacre, when US forces in Vietnam slaughted 300 (I believe that's the number) innocent women and children, spraying them with napalm. Decapitation is a far far more merciful act than having your body covered in napalm.[/q]And that was just one incident... there were many more atrocities where soldiers simply charged into villages and shot whoever they saw. One village lost five hundred people in a single incident; the US government is finally beginning to admit what was done and to offer compensation to the survivors, like the lady who allegedly lost a hand when her infant child was shot dead in her arms.
The worst possible reaction to recent events would be to say, "It's OK, America doesn't usually do this, it's better than what the enemy would do, so nothing needs to be done". Ever hear of "western hypocrisy"? That's what they're talking about. "You all have to obey these rules, but we don't because we're special - and more importantly, we're powerful, so you've got no right to object". I truly fear for this world sometimes...
It's very scary, Big D. Very very scary. I had a rather sleepless night after hearing all this... the pictures were bad enough, but people not caring hurt me and scared me far worse than those pictures did. Apathy leads to terrible things sometimes.
Anyway, back to Vietnam atrocities in general... a lot of torture went down on both sides. My dad said that, when they needed information from a group (didnt matter what side they were on) and no one was talking, they'd tie their hands behind their back, lay sandbags over the backs of their necks, and begin to pour water on them. The sandbags would push their heads down and ultimately choke them to death... until one of them started talking. (I dunno if he participated, when he was sergeant of his own platoon they routinely avoided conflict and basically just slacked off as much as they could, but none one in his platoon was ever even wounded. These things happened when he was a private I believe). Anyway, one day some of the boys from his unit raped a girl (gang raped her, of course) and then drug her to death behind an APC, old west style.
It doesnt matter one whit whether it happens every day or once in a while. One time is too much. One time is wrong. One time is more than enough.
edit: And I'm sure that, back in Germany before the holocaust... there was always someone going 'well, it's only one time' or 'well, our government knows what it's doing' or 'well, not all the soldiers are bad'.
edit 2: And before anyone starts in on me, I'm not saying this is going to turn into another holocaust, and I'm not saying Bush is as bad as Hitler.
Agreed, and that is the attitude you get when you keep hearing over and over "we are the good ones". Anyone read Aldous Huxley's Brave New World? Forty thousand repetitions make a truth, so when things go wrong, just turn your head and pretend that you just didn't see. Big deal, cause...you know, they are more evil, ergo we are free to do as we want as long as we don't do it like them.Quote:
"It's OK, America doesn't usually do this, it's better than what the enemy would do, so nothing needs to be done". Ever hear of "western hypocrisy"? That's what they're talking about. "You all have to obey these rules, but we don't because we're special - and more importantly, we're powerful, so you've got no right to object". I truly fear for this world sometimes...
And now that you mentioned the whole Vietnam atrocities, and I mentioned Huxley...and this is preety off topic, but just as a little anecdote, I found out Reagan retired the school subventions (Whatever it's called in English...eh...economical help) to Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451" because "it was against the principles that should be teached to Americans". Anyone who has read that book (It's preety easy to read, I read it all in an afternoon, it's preety fast paced) knows why the idea of "this are not the principles for our people" is preety scary. It preety much supports the idea of how there seems to be a seek of alienation of the citizens in order to reduce critizism against the country.
But yeah, no big deal, it's just a violation of human rights. No big deal at all.
"We don't want promises, we don't want electoral pruposes, nor goverment pruposes, all they should do is take from the cupboard the Declaration of Human Rights, where everything a human being needs to have a decent life is written, and then apply it"
- Literature Nobel Prize José Saramago in an interview in the literature magezine "Babelia" (24/04/04)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
Yeah, torturing them is wrong, this one incident. At least.But when I see people torturing are troops or killing them, and civilian contractors who are over there to rebuild that country. What am I supposed to do? And they drag there bodies through the streets like somalia.It just pisses me off when I see it.I just say some of those Iraqies kinda of ignorant, we come there to rebuild there country and what do some of them do? Go away americans! I guess that just explains 30 years of corrupt dictatorship gives you. An the occupation in Iraq to leave is pretty soon, but I dont think it should be right now because theres people over there that dont want liberty. Sometimes I wonder if this war will really end in vain, or just be successful because there alot of people of there that hate us, but at least were doing somthing.
What does their attitude have to do with them being tortured? We invaded them. If someone invaded our country, no matter how good their intentions, wouldnt you fight back? Wouldnt you be pissed? And besides, it doesnt matter. It doesnt matter what these people did, it does not give us the right to torture them. You don't know any Iraqi's, don't call them ignorant. They're fighting for what they think is right... whether we agree with it or not. We fight for what we think is right, whether they believe in it or not.
And again, this has nothing to do with the war as a whole. This has to do with human rights. I dont see why this is so hard to understand.
Torture is never right. On either side.
Well hey, at least we take care of the POWs, by supplying them with food and a bed. At least we do that, unlike torturing or dragging dead bodies through the streets, and standing on top of a hummer with a U.S. flag burning. An we didnt invade them, were liberators, we came there to take down Saddam not the Iraqi people. If I was a Iraqi and the US ''invaded'' to take down a corrupt dictator such as Saddam, I wouldnt fight back, Id be happy. :love: As far as human rights, I dont really think POWs have any, there prisoners of war. But on this particular event, yeah that was messed up.
"Well hey, at least we take care of the POWs, by supplying them with food and a bed. At least we do that, unlike torturing or dragging dead bodies through the streets, and standing on top of a hummer with a U.S. flag burning. An we didnt invade them, were liberators, we came there to take down Saddam not the Iraqi people. If I was a Iraqi and the US ''invaded'' to take down a corrupt dictator such as Saddam, I wouldnt fight back, Id be happy."
Liberators after the fact. We went in their to find weapons, not to liberate the Iraqi people. That only came about because plan A turned out to be a hoax. Sure, it is good that Saddam was kicked out, but why should it be okay that we went there under a false pretense?
To really be able to comprehend what has happened, one needs to pause, and remember that while yes, Americans are generally attempting to do the "right" thing, and often treat their POW's better than another country, that still doesn't justify the action. Even if it happened only once, that's one time too many. To me, I'd rather see the flag burned by a foreigner, then have troops who are sworn to protect it, abuse that power. Call them ignorant, call them uninformed, but I agree with what has been said by many: Unless you were born under a rock, it's common sense to realize what was happening was wrong on just a basic level of being alive. I'd have the exact same reaction if this had happened on the flip side, if American POW's had been forced into such torture. It's not about who's side someone is on, that's beside the point. What matters is that people were being treated like dirt, whether you think they should be or not, and THAT, is only going to throw more gas onto a fire that already burns with Worldwide distain for America.
We need to get over what country we're from and really take a long hard look at what it means to just be a human being, or else, it can only get worse.
Take care all.
Please stop trying to make excuses.
We didnt invade them? We liberated them, yes. But we invaded them. We entered their country when a lot of them, their leader especially, did not want us there. That's called invading. Saddam was bad, yes.
I asked if someone invaded America, not if you were an Iraqi. You dont know how you'd react, you're not an Iraqi. If some country with wonderful intentions sat down and said 'you know what, our system of government is awesome. Lets go help the US.' and invaded us, you'd be pissed. I'd be pissed, we'd all be pissed. And I hate Bush and would be glad to see him out of power. I'd still be pissed if someone invaded.
POWs dont have human rights? They're prisoners of war, yes. But they're human. Hence the title human rights. And remember you said that, when our soldiers are captured and tortured. Remember that. You dont think they have human rights, so it's okay that they're tortured.
We take good care of POWs? Yes, our track record is good. But supplying them with a bed and food is moot if we're torturing them. And Iraq took pretty good care of our first POWs, didnt they? But of course, we're allowed to torture and main and kill them, but if they do it to us... well it's on.
Sick. Really disgusting.
"We take good care of POWs? Yes, our track record is good. But supplying them with a bed and food is moot if we're torturing them. And Iraq took pretty good care of our first POWs, didnt they? But of course, we're allowed to torture and main and kill them, but if they do it to us... well it's on."
Tis called: "The American Double Standard".
One example that comes to my mind of this is how Bush can be so very critical of governments run with religion tied into it, yet he says he makes all his decisions based upon God. Hmmm.....
Take care all.
Maybe at least one good thing that will come out of this is that those that say it was only a handful of American soldiers who did this and that you can't condemn the entire U.S. military, maybe next time a handful of Iraqis do something atrocious to U.S. soldiers those people will hold the same sentiment.
Nice point Hooters! One would hope, but who knows nowadays?
Take care all.
The news just keeps getting better:rolleyes2
Now there've been similar allegations against a small number of British troops - a tabeloid has run photos allegedly showing a British soldier urinating on a bound prisoner, and there are reports that another POW was beaten severely and then dropped from the back of a moving truck, and whether he survived is unknown. General Sir Michael Jackson announced an immediate investigation, describing these acts, if found to be true, as "criminal" and saying that those responsible are not fitto wear the Queen's uniform. Jackson's one of the seniormost members of the British armed forces, I'm glad that he, too, is taking a resolutely strong stand.And how was this "liberation" achieved? By invading, and destroying the nation's infrastructure (what's left of it, anyway), killing thousands of Iraqi innocents in the process. The survivors, who've been fed state-controlled media lies for decades, have no reason to believe that anything other than an "evil takeover" is underway... it's a blessing of sorts that so many Iraqis are welcoming the foreign forces, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by noname
Think you need to do a little research... POWs have rights just like any other prisoners. Heard of the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners? How about UN legislation on the matter, that the US signed up to?Quote:
As far as human rights, I dont really think POWs have any, there prisoners of war.
The only reason the Guantanamo Bay detention has been able to continue is because the US government invented excuses to avoid classifying the detainees as POWs, thereby avoiding the Geneva Convention and other accords intended to prevent acts of torture, amongst other cruel and unusual punishment.
Yes, rebuilding is so nice, getting your dear multinationals to get rich by possesing the main points of Iraq and making money. Such solidarity! Destroying and rebuilding what may give you benefits!
And you think the Iraqi people commit atrocities? They do, and yet they do what they are supposed to do. No one wanted Saddam, now Saddam is out, now they cry yankee go home, because no one likes invaders either, no matter how politically correct (Or not) they are.
And then news such as the one just posted arises (Heh, Michael Jackson...uh...¬¬), and I bet this is just the tip of the iceberg. I am not saying the US army is telling their soldiers to torture POWs as much as they like, I am saying some soldiers do despite the law. And then you get pissed when you see this or that guy blew himself up just to kill american troops. OK, well, it may not be something good, to blow youself up, but now use your imagination a little bit: Suppose the man foced to have oral sex, humiliated and beaten to death was your brother, father, or your best friend. What then? Do you love your "liberators" so much?
Now, seriously, maniacheism is just a way of alienating thought. Cut the flow of troutty Hollywood action movies a little bit and use your head.
And...
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
I'm simply amazed how many excuses people find to justify atrocities like this.
Nothing justifies the treatment of prisoners in this manner. Nothing.
I don't think anyone is giving excuses.
There are what, a hundred thousand troops in Iraq? It'd be a mircale if there WASN'T a few criminals in the lot. It says nothing about the army as a whole, unless generals are going around ordering Iraqi troops to be tortured.
And some people are comparing this to what Saddam did. Taking some pictures of people naked, vs. outright torturing and murdering innocent people by the tens of thousands over a series of decades. I think people may be overreacting to this whole thing just a LITTLE. It's not like there's a holocaust going on over there in those prisons. Some sick freaks did some sick stuff to some prisoners. Round up those soldiers, throw them in jail for a good long time like the scum that they are, and get on with things. Worse stuff than the stuff in those pictures happens down the block from me every day, and probably happens in every city in the world.
People get beaten to death, too? And electrocuted? By authority figures? What neighborhood do you live in?
It's compared to what Saddam did because we condemned Saddam for his actions (rightly so) and went to 'liberate' these people from having to be treated like that, yet some of our soldiers are doing these things we're supposed to be saving these people from.
There's a lot of attempted excuses in this thread. Saying "Well at least we... (insert various praise here)" is an excuse, an attempted justifcation.
I agree with Unne. It's not comparable at all, because Saddam, as the state, tortured people and whatnot, while this is just a few troops acting independently. We can't be criticized for the actions of six, twelve, eighteen, or however many are accessories to these acts. This is the last thing we want to happen.
People get beaten to death, too? And electrocuted? By authority figures? What neighborhood do you live in? --TheAbominatrix
Shot by guns, same difference. Dead is dead. There's a serial rapist around here. Guys shoot their pregnant girlfriends. Etc. etc. At the local jail, a bunch of wardens are right now accused of running a scam where they trade female inmates drugs for sex. And using female inmates as prostitutes. How long has it been since there was a story about some little girl somewhere getting kidnapped and raped and murdered by some deranged lunatic? Couldn't have been more than a week or two.
There is no excuse for any of it. But dressing up prisoners, even in very humiliating ways, isn't anywhere near the top of my list of bad things I see on the news every day. That's all I'm saying. Humiliating prisoners is less bad than murdering tens of thousands of people, that's all I'm saying too. So far as scandals go, this is a scandal, sure, but not to the level people seem to be taking it. And it says nothing about America, nor about our troops.
Yeah, but they didnt just humilate them. If that was just the case, it would be different. Still wrong, but different. And it doesnt matter if it happens every day in every part of the world. It's still wrong, and it still deserves to be spoken of and fought against. If we become so apathetic that we look at situations like this... well, it wont be good. Granted a lot of people are, but I, for one, cant just sit back and watch this happen with an 'oh well, it happens all the time' attitude.
Agreed, even if this is a one time incident, it's one time too many. America likes to put itself above the rabble of what goes on, and usually rightfully so, but we also have to repent for mistakes, not just say it's a one time problem. Perhaps, we need to refresh troops around the world what the Geneva Convention said?
Take care all.
No, there is no excuse for this deplorable behavior at all. Furthermore, saying that this isn't as bad as what Saddam did doesn't make it any better. This is a war for the hearts and minds of the citizens of Iraq - and in those sorts of wars, perception is everything.
If our American armed forces are to act as the policemen of the world, then they'd best as hell follow every single bit of international document and legislation to the T. This is going to go a long way in how other nations think of us. One "aw, trout" erases a hundred "attaboys."
Also, this isn't just a matter of the dozen or so soldiers and contractors working at the prison. This is a failure of a good portion of their chain of command - the leaders who decided to assign inexperienced grunts and civillians to a POW facility. There are military personnel specifically trained for this sort of thing. Hell, even I have more experience with interrogation procedures than these screw-ups.
Anyway, the best thing we can do right now is punish those responsible for this mess, get some new folks in charge of the POW system over there, and carry on with our business despite the international outcry surrounding this atrocious incident.
Very good points indeed Doc.
If America is going to take the responsibility to "safeguard democracy" around the world, they'd most certainly better be ready to take the brunt of the backlash and burdens.
Take care all.
Well said, DocFrance. I agree completly.
If we want Iraqi citizens to feel that we've truly come to liberate them, as we claim, then we should act like liberators and not like the one we liberated them from. No, what those people did wasnt nearly as bad as what Saddam did... but can you imagine it's effect on the everyday Iraqi citizen? The chilling though that, hey, maybe even after Saddam is gone... there'll just be a force as evil to replace them? No, I'm not saying that the American force is evil as a whole, but I know if I were an Iraqi civilian learning of this, that would be the first thing on my mind.
We can only hope that some good can come of this. That maybe this will expose problems and the military will strive to fix them. Hopefully this was just an isolated incident, though I did see on the BBC news that the investigation has exposed far more... even in British forces (the only incident I clearly remember them speaking of was a British soldier urinating on an Iraqi captive, I dunno if they mentioned anything else).
Meanwhile, every single day, someone in Iraq rams a car full of explosives into a bus full of children, or some such thing. Where is the outrage over THAT? I don't see people making threads condemning THAT. It's fine to be outraged over what the US troops did; I am too. Given the level of outrage shown in this thread (for example) at what the US troops did, we should have forum after forum of nothing but people literally screaming in fury over what the psychopaths in Iraq are doing every day, to innocent Iraqis as well as Americans. But I don't see it. Taking pictures, vs. shooting missiles at hotel buildings; and taking pictures is what gets your focus?
I'm not at all apathetic to the prisoners' being tortured by Americans; like I said, soldiers who'd do that are scum, and deserve prison time. I'm more upset because of the focus of people's outrage here, and THAT is the only double-standard I notice.
I dont see you posting those threads, either. I, personally, am disgusted by those actions. I watch the news as little as possible, simply because I can only handle so much. I am fully disgusted by pretty much everything going on in this war, and I have said so many times.
Don't say things like "I don't see anyone posting those things." if you want discussion on those things, post em. Post em everytime it happens. And you'll see as much disgust as you've seen in this one.
I admit that "You didn't post threads about it!" isn't proof of anything. A stupid thing for me to say. I'll retract that statement and just say that directly comparing what the American troops did in the prison to things like what Saddam did to the Iraqis isn't valid. I have read such comparisons in various news sites, things like "What's the difference between them and Saddam? They are finishing what he started".
The only problem Unne, is that most of Saddam's evil doings have not yet entirely been found. Once more gravesites, and the like are found, I'd expect more of a reaction. It's sad to say this, but much like what occured in Russia under Stalin, and in Africa, we may never know the exact amount of those who were killed during his brutal and terrible regime.
The only thing I can think of to explain this is:
We've come to almost expect the worst out of Iraq, so it's that much more shocking to see it happen outside of Iraq, and I think that is the main reason that this particular issue has drawn so much attention.
Still, I agree that it seems a little bit off, but America is always and will probably always be held to higher standards, it comes with the terrority that we've decided to take for ourselves.
Take care all.
I see no difference between Americans horribly torturing Iraqis and Iraqis horribly torturing Americans. The very fact that these are human beings being tortured remains the same, and I cannot dismiss it as something that always happens. Even if such a thing is true, it SHOULD NOT be permitted to happen, ever. There is no excuse, there is no defense, this is a horrible, inhuman act that demands outrage as surely as the actions of the Iraqis who torture our own people demand equal outrage.
Agreed. The problem is, it has always seemed that the value of human live differs depending on what culture you're from, which is very disheartening.
Take care all.
If I remember correctly, the Allies invaded Iraq for two reasons: to find weapons of mass destruction, and to bring democracy and human rights to the Iraqi people. They didn't find any weapons of mass destruction, and now they are becoming the new tyrants. Well done!
It's no excuse that some Iraqis do even worse things. It never is.
O_OQuote:
They didn't find any weapons of mass destruction, and now they are becoming the new tyrants. Well done!
How can you say that? This torture is a particular case, USA is by no means acting as an invasion, but as a liberation. Look at the solidary reconstruction of the country, where assets destroyed are being rebuilt by solidary allied multinationals, that care a lot for the iraqi people and by no means intend to expand their ultra-capitalistic system through the country by leeching them.
Democracy is so wonderful! :D
I guarantee you that a very large number of Iraqis aren't looking at the Americans as liberators right now.
When you force your way into a country, fighting and destroying as you go, it's an invasion, no matter how good your intentions are. That's just how it is. Most especially to the people over there, and most especially now.
Are you telling me that? In that case, I must tell you my post was sarcastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
... Your face is sarcastic!
Eh, I cant tell sarcasm in the text. Sorry.
I usually can, but in this case I really couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not.
In real life, I tend to be sarcastic every time I express an opinion, I already explained the reasons for that here, althogh sometimes I do it just because I am plain annoying.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
Plus, I post a lot here, I thought my sarcasm was obvious, I kinda not change my opinion on this invasion from one day (or hour) to another. In fact, I don't even believe this war on Iraq has "good intentions". In fact, I consider it plain imperialistic (Economically, I repeat, economically).
But just in case, next time I'll be sure to use my friend Roll Eyes: :rolleyes2
I think its messed up how Bush blame Donald Rumsfeld, and was about to fire him. Same with the democrates seizing the moment. I think Rumsfeld doesnt need to apologize for what other people do, he can not control them but only give them orders. I think these guys that did the ''torturing'' be now shot to, since it gives us a ''bad'' image through out the middle east.
People often look for a scapegoat, someone they can scold and criticise for the actions of others. Politicians are a natural target.
However, the press have lately been taking note of Rumsfeld's earlier comments - back before the war - where he praised the effectiveness of UN sanctions, for effectively preventing Hussein from rebuilding his WMD stockpile. Further evidence that Bush knew there was no real threat posed by Iraq's military; that could be another incentive to Rumsfeld's removal.The US's image in the Middle East was already bad; this just made it worse. However, I feel that those responsible for the criminal acts should be tried and judged in the appropriate way, simply because they committed atrocious acts - "image" is irrelevant compared to human suffering.Quote:
I think these guys that did the ''torturing'' be now shot to, since it gives us a ''bad'' image through out the middle east.
As Big D said, the US is already looking pretty bad. This just made it much, MUCH worse.
This makes me insanely mad. The one person standing on a box (Not the flat side), with his head covered and with wires connected to his body was told by the soldiers that if he fell off the box which was difficult to stand on, he would be electrecuted, They were, of course, lying. Yet still, that is considered torture.
And now I despise this war twice as much....
I saw Secretary Rumsfeld's response on tonight's news; frankly, it was the best response yet delivered by one of the 'big-wigs' in this situation. He also apologised for the actions of those men, something that even President Bush didn't do. I'm hoping Rumsfeld won't be made the whipping-boy for this situation... which is actually getting worse by the minute.
New photos and film have been released to the top-ranking military, allegedly showing the rape of a female prisoner, further fatal and near-fatal beatings, and images of US soldiers watching Iraqi detainees raping children. Apparently, some of the soldiers were under orders to "soften up" the prisoners for interrogation... and this is their idea of how to accomplish that.
I shudder to think at how widespread and systematic this abuse has become, but a US general was appalled to realise that the actions of the soldiers in the photos seemed to indicate it was nothing unusual, just "another day at the office" rather than an alarming event. I could see what he means, too - in a number of those pictures, uninvolved soldiders are just casually strolling by without batting an eyelid. It seems this might've been going on even longer than it appeared.
How many of those prisoners are genuinely guilty of crimes, and how many were implicated after simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time? It's bad enough that legitimate captives should receive this kind of treatment, but for it to happen to complete innocents as well is beyond unthinkable.
Until we get an official report from the pending investigation, I think that a lot of things we'll hear and see will be rumor and conjecture. The media tends to feed off sensationalism, so we might be getting a biased view on the matter.
Punishment should be just, but certainly not swift. Like Big D said, some people could just end up as whipping boys, and nobody is yet entirely sure how far up these screw-ups' chain of command this went. A thorough and exhaustive investigation should be in order.
I believe the investigation is supposed to take around 40 or so days, which may or may not be good. Perhaps they'll get the information that is being sought, but at the same time, that's 40 more days of speculation for the public, the media, and both sides of the political spectrum. I hope that we can get through this time and actually get to the bottom of this, and not let it fester or be forgotten when a "new" story/scandal breaks.
Take care all.
There's nothing today's media enjoys more than scandal/corruption/human suffering. They'll do anything they can to boost the sensationalism, with this matter as with everything else.
Indeed, the only reasonable response will be a "thorough and exhaustive investigation". The public might want to see someone punished now, and it might be good PR to do so; but unless the accused are given a fair trial and due process of law, all we'll be seeing is another unjust, illegal act. "Innocent until proven guilty" must still apply. Besides, arbitrarily punishing a few individuals will leave the majority of the offenders out there, unpunished and probably free to continue their depraved acts.
According to Dateline (which I'm watching right now) and probably other sources, the Red Cross has been informing the military of these problems for over a year and only now things are being done. That's sick. More pictures are surfacing... more of the same, torture and humilation at the hands of our troops. It really brings tears to my eyes.
This is obviously a huge problem. Not just six or seven low-ranking soldiers, but there's a problem in the chain of command. That whole prison had to know what was going on, and more people as well, seeing as the Red Cross has been telling them time and time again for a year.
Then again, thats something I am not surprised about. Had those photographs never emerged, nothing would have been done. Now thats what I call a bunch of hypocrites.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
Yep, March 2003 was when the Red Cross first started raising concerns about the treatment of prisoners. However, somewhere in the chain of command, the complaints were stopped in their tracks - possibly the officer who was benefitting from interrogating/torturing these "softened up" prisoners.
Actually, late last year or early this year, a soldier was reported in the papers as facing disciplinary action for abusing prisoners - she'd reportedly been kicking them repeatedly, stomping on their groins and inciting other soldiers to do the same. I'm uncertain as to the outcome of the investigation into her conduct; I don't believe it's been reported widely, if at all. Of course, with no pictures to show off, the media took very little interest.
I never saw that or heard of it at all. Pictures hit home harder, I suppose. I need to start reading the papers more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D
here is what I put on my topic.
yesterday I was on the internet and reading newspapers looking at the news.
I sew these pictures that were so disurping (not sure if I spelt it right)
Iraq prisoners got abused.
the pictures of Iraqi soldiers with no uniforms and had a hell of a beating gave me a stomach ache . I tend not to show you the pictures because It's against the rules on this website. So if you want to see them, see for yourself.
I for one should think they should stop doing this
Apparently, our government (UK) hadn't even seen the Red Cross report a few days ago. Yet they're trying to say that all the issues raised in it are being dealt with. Something doesn't add up!
It seems that the phrase being tossed around is: 'Vigilante Justice'
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...raq_beatings_1
That phrase, in a nutshell, is a nice oxymoron.
This is becoming more and more like Vietnam, with the stakes growing higher and higher with every news event.
Take care all.
This is all getting so very sick. I'm ashamed to be human right now.
Investigations by UK intelligence, and independent groups, says that the tabeloid photos of British soldiers abusing prisoners in a truck was a fake - the vehicle, they say, is one that's never been anywhere near Iraq, and the photos were a set-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burtsplurt
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be stupid enough to attempt a cover-up or denial at a time like this, so they likely feel that they have good reasons for doubting these images. The same can't be said for the records of abuses by US guards, though, unfortunately. It'd be nice if it was all a huge terrorist propoganda scam, but that seems impossible now.
First round of sentencing occurred:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...soner_abuse_18
What's everyone's take? Harsh enough?
Take care all.
Looks like the Abu-Ghraib lot aren't avers to beating the odd prisoner to death, either... (disturbing pictures)
He went into the showers alive and healthy, and came out dead. Now what does that remind me of?