The future of jerusalem

Fact 1) the western wall of the temple is slowly falling down. It cannot be fixed. The orthodox jews believe it's a sign from God and are even more incited to rebuild their temple NOW.

Fact 2) the dome on the rock does not stand directly over solomon's temple but is (I believe) either on arab land or on land that the arabs have some authorory over

Fact 3) Jerusalem is way overdue for a major earthquake that will probably destroy both the entire western wall and the dome on the rock.

So, what's gonna happen when the jews want to rebuild the temple and the dome no longer stands. will there be a new mosque standing side by side? will the jews rebuild the temple without performing the God given sanctification commands (which would by necessity mean absolute destruction of everything islamic on the mout)?

be fruitful and discuss!

O_o....

Errr... what are you on about? What earth-quake? What re-building of the temple? Maybe you think aliens will come as wel...

There isn't much to be said of this. The Western wall stand proud, as it has been for the past 3,400 years, the Dome Mosque is in good shape (it's going through ronvations), and it's also very young (less than 400 years, I believe). Earth-quakes have yet to occur in the area of Jerusalem.

No-one, but deluded fanatics (and I mean DELUDED, as in, not sane), is talking about building the Third Temple. The last one was destroyed in 70 AD, and there's no need for a new, third one. Besides - the Dome Mosque (along with other Muslim-aligned buildings) have been built on that area. It's impossible to built there (or even trespass), without inciting massive rage in the Arab\Muslim world (which isn't really that hard to do, anyway...).

err... no
The jewish antiquities authority has stated that the wall is falling down and it cannot be fixed. It's already injured one orthodox jew when a stone hit his head.

all the true jewish orthodox want the temple back. what's more, almost each one of the six percent of americans who profess fundimentalist christianity want the temple rebuilt because it marks the imminent return of christ. (respectfully, the belief that two entire ethinic groups are insane may be indicitive of some pretty serious propoganda. I'm not trying to be insulting, just somthing for you to think about... but, onward...)

the earthquake is supposed to be stronger than most anything israel has ever seen, epicenter: the temple mount. certantly it's not just going to fall over, but it won't survive. and as for muslim rage... israel really doesn't care. the fact that it's wiped the middle east with the butts of the entire arab world more than once has made them (justifiably) apathetic to what the arab world says. Science states that this destruction will happen... what will happen afterwards is the point of this thread.

you must also understand that the entire world has not accepted postmodernism. when God says, "build a temple" even if he said so 2300 years ago (rougly the time of ezra) the devout do so. period. that doesn't make them deluded. to be insane, one has to have several traits, on of the first of which being irrational action. True faith is nothing if not rational, because beleif in what you cannot know is no belief at all.

and no aliens. nothing ever seen in the night sky has ever been confirmed as anything nonhuman.

Jerusalem is one the most holy sites in the world for Christians, Muslims and Jews alike. It should be a place where all cultures can celebrate their common history, and unify by overcoming dogmatic and cultural divides. Jerusalem should be a place that's cherished for and by everyone....

Instead, it's in the middle of violent bloodshed, a place that's basically at the heart of divisive hatred. It's often proposed as a 'bargaining chip', a token to be traded for land or cease-fires.

I think it's pretty sad that such an important place should suffer so much because of human intolerance.

Clyde Arronway, this seems almost like a religious discussion rather than a world-events discussion. I don't see how a lot of what you've said has anything to do with reality.

Science states that this destruction will happen... what will happen afterwards is the point of this thread. --Clyde Arronway

I've never heard this. Could you provide a source?

As for what would happen if Jerusalem was destroyed in an earthquake, maybe it'd be one less thing for people to murder each other over. Maybe seeing the "holy city" demolished in a random, meaningless natural disaster would wake some people up in the world.

Then again, maybe people from various religious groups would rush into the newly-opened area in a blind, violent fury, eager to grab up lands for themselves and also eager to slaughter all who would trespass, all in the name of Yahweh the Destroyer. Probably much more likely. JudeoChristiMoslems have had a couple thousand years to work out their differences with each other, and there has probably been progress in that time, but extremely slow and won at great cost; I don't see that much of anything is going to change drastically any time soon.



Jerusalem should be a place that's cherished for and by everyone.... --Big D

If I understand you correctly (I may not), this is almost an insult to non-JudeoChristiMoslems in the world. Of which there are quite a few. Jerusalem means nothing more to me than any other city for example. Nor does it mean anything to a Buddhist, a Taoist, or a Hindu, so far as I would guess.

It means nothing to you as a historical site?

Are non-muslims allowed in the Dome, or is there some kind of restriction?

It means nothing more to me than any other city. Are there a lot of books kept there? If the city were destroyed, I'd mourn the loss of a library, just like I'd mourn the loss of one in any other city. I'd mourn the loss of artwork or historical architecture, I guess. I wouldn't mourn the loss of Jerusalem due to any religious significance though.

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It's already injured one orthodox jew when a stone hit his head.

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The smallest, lightest stones in the wall are around 30-40 tons. I doubt any of them could've fell down, 'injured' (how the hell does a rock the weight of a tank only 'injure'?!) a praying man, and I wouldn't heard anything of it on the news. Very, very unlikely.

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the earthquake is supposed to be stronger than most anything israel has ever seen, epicenter: the temple mount

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Are you saying we can now predict earth-quakes long before they happen, and the EXACT starting location?! Wow! That's really great! [/sarcasm]

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that doesn't make them deluded

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Wanting to re-built a temple destroyed almost two mellenias ago, in this time and place, is the thought of a deluded, un-realistic religious moron. Sorry. Just go out to God and say "Sorry mate, but that temple thing will just have to wait. Might take a while, so hang in there, buddy!".

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Jerusalem is one the most holy sites in the world for Christians, Muslims and Jews alike.

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The Jews built it in some 3,000 years ago (A thousand years before the rise of Christianity, and 1600 years before the rise of Islam) and held it for a very good deal of years, the Christians have stories of their prophet being in it, and the Muslims conquered it. That's all the connection anyone has to that place. No monotheistic religion worships buildings or cities, and the city itself is not 'Holy'. It simply holds a great meaning. Only, the Jews have history there, while the others don't.

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I've never heard this. Could you provide a source?

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www.falsenews.com

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It means nothing to you as a historical site?

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To me, it does. A whole lot. My people built it some 3,000 years ago, and have been living in it ever since, with a soveriegn rule for a large portion of that time. All the others have are their religious beliefs and convictions - not a real, undeniable material foothold in Jerusalem. It's where the Israeli kings lived and ruled from, where many great battles took place... to me, the meaning of Jerusalem is like London is to the English, and Paris to the French. Only mine has an extra 2000+ years on those.

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Are non-muslims allowed in the Dome, or is there some kind of restriction?

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While the Israelis had control over it, everyone was allowed. Recently, the Arabs gained control of it, and since then, it's been a closed parameter for any non-Muslim. The last non-Muslim to go there, if I am not mistaken, was Ariel Sharon, and that was the trigger excuse to start the current Intifada.

Unne, you forgot to say you would mourn the loss of people, surely you would mourn the loss of people above material things?

I think to ignore the significance of Jerusalem as a religious city is naive. It is considered to be built upon the holiest of holy lands to many religions, ok you mentioned some above which it doesn't concern but I would imagine much of the literature and artwork that has come from Jerusalem bears the religious history of the city in mind, from biblical times, to the crusades, to the present day therefore you could not mourn its destruction without acknowledging the religious influences that provided the inspiration for it to come into existence in the first place. I am not a religious man in any way but I would certainly mourn Jerusalem for its religious significance because religion in most countries I can think of, is the foundation of society.

http://www.jnewswire.com/news_archiv...0211_quake.asp

Read about recent seismic activity in Israel. Apparently this one cracked the Knesset.

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Read about recent seismic activity in Israel. Apparently this one cracked the Knesset.

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It was less than 4 on the Richter scale, and no-one even felt it. People did not 'stream' into the streets, like that article says. And, also, Israel has been the focus of many earth-quakes, since it sits right on the African-Syrian tactonic border. If the wall hasn't fallen down yet, I doubt it ever will. Besides, reinforcements have been made, and will continue to be made to assure the survival of that historic and religious monument.

Anyone saying stuff about some apocalyptic earth-quake is a doom-sayer, and nothing more. There's no way to predict earth-quakes, let alone 50 (!) years in advance.

I totally agree with you, however i believe the Earthquake was stronger than you say although I won't bicker with you over a few decimal places, and like you say, as does the article, it caused little damage. Unfortunately there aren't too many sources that are 100% accurate, exaggeration and mediation is all part of the package with news services.

You're right though, unless someone has a crystal ball and can see into the future there really is no way to pre-empt (by any significant amount of time anyway) when a natural disaster such as this will occur. According to the artice a massive Earthquake has been prophesised but that doesn't amount to solid evidence Jerusalems destruction is imminent. Like you say, Doom-sayers.

Doc Sark - You know, War Angel DOES live in Israel. I think he has a better idea of how bad the earthquakes are than you do.

I'm sorry Doomgaze did you have something relevant to add to the discussion? I am well aware that War Angel lives in Israel hence why I agreed with pretty much everything he said.

Unne, you forgot to say you would mourn the loss of people, surely you would mourn the loss of people above material things? --Doc Sark

Yes.

I am not a religious man in any way but I would certainly mourn Jerusalem for its religious significance because religion in most countries I can think of, is the foundation of society.

Not in my country.

What country do you livein then Unne, where the morals and values dictated to you by your society were not based upon some religious doctrine?

The US.

So you're saying that US Laws were in no way based on the laws of a religion (christianity/catholicism) and that swearing on the bible in court for example is just a gimmick. Oh and the fact that you have to swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god. Nothing to do with religion. Its just coincidence that robbery, murder, slander etc are illegal and that they also are in the ten commandments. People may not necessarily abide to a certain religion but there is no doubt that western culture and western society are based upon ancient religious ways. However this is getting off topic, if you feel you have an arguement against this then start a new thread and I will be happy to contribute.

Back to Jerusalem.

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Not in my country.

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I think you should re-check things, mate. :)

I'll make a new thread for this.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

The smallest, lightest stones in the wall are around 30-40 tons. I doubt any of them could've fell down, 'injured' (how the hell does a rock the weight of a tank only 'injure'?!) a praying man, and I wouldn't heard anything of it on the news. Very, very unlikely.


Are you saying we can now predict earth-quakes long before they happen, and the EXACT starting location?! Wow! That's really great! [/sarcasm]


Wanting to re-built a temple destroyed almost two mellenias ago, in this time and place, is the thought of a deluded, un-realistic religious moron. Sorry. Just go out to God and say "Sorry mate, but that temple thing will just have to wait. Might take a while, so hang in there, buddy!".


The Jews built it in some 3,000 years ago (A thousand years before the rise of Christianity, and 1600 years before the rise of Islam) and held it for a very good deal of years, the Christians have stories of their prophet being in it, and the Muslims conquered it. That's all the connection anyone has to that place. No monotheistic religion worships buildings or cities, and the city itself is not 'Holy'. It simply holds a great meaning. Only, the Jews have history there, while the others don't.

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okay, it's very apperant that you aren't taking any of this seriously. no offence but everything you've said is rhetoric and is not the state of reality. These are documented facts, I can try to pull everything you want and give you sources but you can't just throw out large statements which don't agree with how reality actually is.
One: the stones are breaking. rock is falling down. do your own reaserch! by all means don't take my word for it! A cracked piece has injured one jew by striking him on the head.

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/News/20040419.htm

that covers the earthquake too. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but we can find the future epicenter of quakes with some easyness.

Religion is not the sign of delusion. I personally and every other devout religious person on this earth find that to be religious hate. If you can't rationally tell me why belief in a literal book of faith is delusional, are you speaking anything but propaganda? think about that. Know also that I will be checking any answer for informal logical fallicies, which seem to run all to rampant in today's culture. But I digress. Finally your jewish history is a little poor. King David conquored the city from a residual cannanite tribe. It is also discribed as the footstool of God, God's holy city in one of the later psalms. So why isn't it holy?

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okay, it's very apperant that you aren't taking any of this seriously

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Not at all.

It's just a wall. If it breaks down, we'll fix it. That's all there is to it.

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I'm sorry to burst your bubble but we can find the future epicenter of quakes with some easyness.

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Well, duh. It's pretty obvious that any earth-quake in this area will come from the tactonic barrier. That's like saying 'I think it's safe to say the next bullet will also come from out of the barrel'. Only, you can't tell WHEN it's going to happen, or even IF it's going to happen.

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Religion is not the sign of delusion

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I did not say that. However, thinking that rebuilding the Jewish Temple, on that mountain, at this time, is a feasible idea... well, that's idiotic. Sorry, there's no other word for it. It has NOTHING to do with religion. I know many religious people, and if I asked them that, they'd say "Sure, it'd be nice if we could... but it can't be done.". Thinking or saying otherwise means you don't know what earth you're living on. Maybe in your world, there are no Muslims, and no-one else who desires that place for themselves. Or mayble, you're ready for an all-out religious war with over a billion and a half Muslims?

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So why isn't it holy?

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Because we're not pagan. Jews worship God, anywhere. He's not inside the city, and while it holds a great place of meaning to Jews, that meaning of simply due to certain historic events that took place there, and as the center of worship. We do NOT worship the city, and God is the only icon of holiness.

Oh, and that site you gave - it's some kind of religious-crazed doom-site, trying to bring about the building ot the Third Temple. I suggest people read that article, to see what a Jewish religious fanatic sounds like. I give that site abseloutly NO credit, as far as objective news report is concerned.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

Oh, and that site you gave - it's some kind of religious-crazed doom-site, trying to bring about the building ot the Third Temple.

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This is a logical fallicy. Let me explain. Bias is irrelevant. It doesn't change truth or a person's vision of truth, and even if it did, it wouldn't matter. If you cannot find an actual problem with a statement, you can't just cry "bias!" and run. Even If the implications of a statement or the source of a statement made it untrue, you must then be able to find somthing wrong with the statement in and of itself.

I have a question. What makes you think religious people have any will to act in accordance with the feasibility of the world. True religion constitutes one and only one thing, complete adherence to one absolute truth spoken by God or somthing that stands in the place of God. The absolute truths of the jewish bible are as such, God is omnipotent, He does not care what the world wants, he will do whatever he pleases without care for the petty politics of earth, because he is holy and takes earths superpowers as seriously as a bunch of toddlers flinging mud at each other. Under those assumptions, why do you think that the orthodox jews will non act to achieve God's goals without concern for politics. If they did anyhow, the last Four times the arabs attacked Israel, The israelis slaughtered them and wiped the entire middle east with their bloody carcasses. I don't think they'd have a problem even not considering God.

And I only cited that page to show that factually speaking the wall is falling down and cannot be repaired. If you do a little more searching you'll find that water has started seeping through the wall, it's bulging in places and essentially cannot be put back together, and that sometime in the future it will come down, and that also sometime in the future that mosque is going to come crashing down. Ignore the "religious crazed" etc etc and look at fact.

and how can you say you don't consider jerusalem the holy city, even though the Jewish and Christian bible calls it that, when your location at this very moment says: The Holy Land?!

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What makes you think religious people have any will to act in accordance with the feasibility of the world.

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Because they're still logical, thinking human-beings. Otherwise, they're just morons.

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The absolute truths of the jewish bible are as such, God is omnipotent, He does not care what the world wants, he will do whatever he pleases without care for the petty politics of earth, because he is holy and takes earths superpowers as seriously as a bunch of toddlers flinging mud at each other.

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That's not true. In the book of Ezra (at least, I think it was Ezra..), God tells Ezra to tell the kings to allow Babylon passage to Egypt, and not stand in the empire's way. The foolish Israeli king decalres war on Babylon, stands in its way... and soon finds his tragic end, as does Jersualem and many other Israeli cities at that time. So, God does care about earthly politics, and he desires to protect his people from making mistakes. Waging war upon the Islamic world, when there 13 million Jews and some 1.7 billion Muslims - that's not a bright thing to do.

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Under those assumptions, why do you think that the orthodox jews will non act to achieve God's goals without concern for politics.

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You know, it's really funny... 'cause orthodox Jews aren't even Zionist. They couldn't care less about the State of Israel, and haven't fought in any war - and they continue to avoid military service that is the duty of every Israeli. They don't work, either. They don't pay taxes. In conclusion - everything the Haredim say about Israel, is not something I'd care to hear.

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If they did anyhow, the last Four times the arabs attacked Israel, The israelis slaughtered them and wiped the entire middle east with their bloody carcasses.

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5 times, and it was hardly any thing like what you described. Each war was won just barely, with extreme casualties on the Israeli side. The War of Independance was won, after over one percent of the population had perished. Just to get that number clear - that's like a war happening in the USA now, and over 3 million Americans dead by the end of it. Israel has won every war by sheer genious in battle, and un-wavering morale and courage - not the help of God, and surely not by the help of some primtive, apathetic money-sucking zealots.

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And I only cited that page to show that factually speaking the wall is falling down and cannot be repaired. If you do a little more searching you'll find that water has started seeping through the wall, it's bulging in places and essentially cannot be put back together, and that sometime in the future it will come down, and that also sometime in the future that mosque is going to come crashing down

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Then it will fall down. It's been standing solid for over three millenias - I'd say that's a pretty good deal of time, for a brick-wall that is located in a place that has seen more conflict than any other place on the face of the earth.

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and how can you say you don't consider jerusalem the holy city, even though the Jewish and Christian bible calls it that, when your location at this very moment says: The Holy Land?!

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The term 'Holy Land' does not exist in Hebrew. It's 'Eretz Hakodesh', or 'Land of Holiness', which is considerably different.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

Because they're still logical, thinking human-beings. Otherwise, they're just morons.

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Or mabey becaus God has the power to knock the world flat on it's face and does so frequently

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Originally Posted by War Angel

That's not true. In the book of Ezra (at least, I think it was Ezra..), God tells Ezra to tell the kings to allow Babylon passage to Egypt, and not stand in the empire's way. The foolish Israeli king decalres war on Babylon, stands in its way... and soon finds his tragic end, as does Jersualem and many other Israeli cities at that time. So, God does care about earthly politics, and he desires to protect his people from making mistakes. Waging war upon the Islamic world, when there 13 million Jews and some 1.7 billion Muslims - that's not a bright thing to do.
care to hear.

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Book of kings. There were no kings in the second temple period. King Josiah or jehoicakim or somthing jeh-ish stood in the way. He died because he disobayed God. So tell me, If God could warn the king to not go to war, why didn't he just protect israel from babylon later on. Becaue, he orchestrated the attack on israel to begin with to punish them for idolitry (See Jeremiah and Haggai) God specifically raised up the chaldeans to punish israel. Now you've accepted your example as truth, so why don't you accept everything. There are two reasons for you, firstly you can't accept part as true and part as false without reason, and if you have a reason, secondly, you must know that any reason that stands inbetween you and complete acceptance of truth constitues idolotry and doesn't only break one command, but a major theme of the entire hebrew bible and thus invalidates the whole.

oh... Israel took over siani, destroyed the entire egyptian air force in one shot, and almost took damascus. What more do you want? I don't mean that to mean that God did it, you'll come to that conclusion when enough 'coincidences' pile up. But Israel crushed the arab world.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

The term 'Holy Land' does not exist in Hebrew. It's 'Eretz Hakodesh', or 'Land of Holiness', which is considerably different.

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We aren't speaking of hebrew, we're talking in english. Holy City is paganism but Holy land is not? and anyhow, gramatically speaking, an adjective is the same thing as a genative of kind. Holy land=land of holyness.

I'm not going to have an argument with you about the power of God, his course of action or goals - simply because I don't believe in God. I could discuss his literrary figure, as it appears in the scriptures (the same way I would discuss Gandalf's role in LoTR), but nothing more.

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But Israel crushed the arab world.

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While Israel indeed has a formidable military presence, and has shown awesome displays of said prowess - it is still a small nation of 7 million people, versus more than two dozen nations, with a several hundred million people in them. Even if you manage to disarm a 60-foot giant of his tiny dagger, you'd still have a 60-foot giant on your case.

Anyway... to try and bring this rather awkward argument back on its trails:

If the wall falls down, it'll be a bummer, but it's still alright. It doesn't make any difference. Jews don't need the wall for prayer, they don't require it for worship, and they sure as hell don't wroship it. The Western Wall is a last remnant of a golden age, long past - it is not the heart and soul of Judaism. That's really all that needs to be said. Repairs will be made, but the eventual fate of the Western Wall is the same as that of any building, and indeed anything else - to fall.

The same goes for any earth-quake\meteor hit\flood\giant cat with foull temper - if it happens, then it happens. We'll do our best to prepare for it, and make repairs... but you can't really prevent an earth-quake, can you?

A new, third temple cannot be built. There are many who would oppose it, and frankly, I don't see any reason why we SHOULD build it. What good would it bring? Only the savage fury of the Muslim world, which isn't a very pleasant thing, mind you.

...Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

I mean, the IDF COULD drive down to Gaza and the West Bank, go door to door, and personally beat every Palestinian in the face with a shoe. It'd have about the same effect.

Perhaps, and this is just WILD speculation, the Israeli people are sick of war, and do not want to further enrage the Muslim world because a bunch of crackpot fundamentalist Christians want them to rebuild the temple so that Armageddon may begin and Jesus can smite all those who have not given enough money to said Christians?

"If you can't rationally tell me why belief in a literal book of faith is delusional, are you speaking anything but propaganda?"

The laws of Isreal's tribes from three millenia ago do not, for the most part, apply to the modern world.

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Originally Posted by Doomgaze

Christians want them to rebuild the temple so that Armageddon may begin and Jesus can smite all those who have not given enough money to said Christians?

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Where in the name of a feral wombat did you pull that out of?

[/QUOTE]
The laws of Isreal's tribes from three millenia ago do not, for the most part, apply to the modern world.[/QUOTE]

The bible is not a normal book of laws. Parts of the torah is, two or so books, but the bible is a book of truths. It has been treated as such by both sides (me and war angel) throughout this thread but then you all start questioning it's validity. The jews who believe in the literal accuracy of the masoretic text will follow it to the end. That makes them deluded? Insane? and that makes everything they say wrong? Expand that Idea logically and you get a little problem. I believe letter of the entire christian bible is true down to the yuds and iotas. Therefore everything I say is wrong. I would not argue if you said it was suspect, but to dismiss what is suspect one needs to have proof, which neither of you have. I declare as true that 1+1=2. Ergo, 1+1+!2.
You've just suceeded in destroying all math on earth.

I don't know how much farther we can go on this argument. I'm what you call a fundimentalist, you both are what is called nihilist postmodern. We are polar opposites on all issues. Ergo nolo pugnare. (I can no longer argue. we wil never see eye to eye.)

But I must thank war angel for bringing us back to the topic, and I thank you for the first real answer.

Farewell all!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Temple

"A few, very small, Jewish groups support constructing a Third Temple today, but most Jews oppose this, for a variety of reasons. Most religious Jews feel that the Temple should only be rebuilt in the messianic era, and that it would presumptuous of people to force God's hand, as it were. Furthermore, there are many ritual impurity constrictions that are difficult to resolve, making the building's construction a practical impossibility."

"Some fundamentalist and evangelical Christian groups, especially those who follow a dispensationalist theology, believe that the Jewish people will build the Third Temple shortly before, or perhaps after, "true" Christians have been raptured."

and I'm NOT a nihilist. Believe it or not, not everyone who doesn't base their lives on a mistranslated old book is.

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Originally Posted by Doomgaze

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Temple
and I'm NOT a nihilist. Believe it or not, not everyone who doesn't base their lives on a mistranslated old book is.

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Postmodern nihilism is different from nihilism. You do believe in nothing if you don't base your life off of an absolute. Ergo, you're a nihilist. And the bible isn't mistranslated, not once. The dead sea scrolls prove that not one yud was lost in 2100 years. You have to base your truths off of somthing. What are they based off of, and why do you believe that the jewish/christian bible is wrong. It's been proven to my face as inerrant many many times by the most intellectual I know, so you must prove it wrong or accept it. There is no middle ground because the bible explicitly states that every single philosophy that disagrees with itself is wrong.

and you still have to tell me why giving money to the church has anything to do with christianity or the rapture.

But this is really all beside the point. I got a response from war angel, I'm happy. This isn't a "poke the fundementilist" thread and I'm tired of defending my faith and the fundementalist jewish faith when I never made any philosophical arguments to begin with.

oh yes, people don't make their own truths or religion, if they do then they know they're wrong because they have no power or authority to do so and they're terrible liars, so what most of the jews feel is appropriate is not scriptural. It's important, but to say it is the pivitol issue is to make out the entire jewish race to be ambivolent two faced liars, which we all know is totally inappropriate and morally wrong.