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Note: This is meant to be an intelligent debate. In other words, no posts that say something useless like "Red Mages r0x0rs!" or "Red Mages are the Anti-Christ!" Keep it smart, people.
Now, my question is, why should an experienced FF1 player likie myself take a Red Mage? :confused:
Please, actual reasons are preferred, not just personal preferrence.
You should take the Red Mage because he is a great character. He is better then the Black Mage. He has the second best attack throughout majority of the game. He has decent hp (better then the Black Mages). He has great defense throughout majority of the game. He can also use both white and black magic which is really helpful. There really is no reason to NOT take him. Who do you use instead of the Red Mage? The thief? If so then that is a poor decision considering that theQuote:
Originally Posted by BottledJustice
- RMs are physically stronger than Thieves
- RMs have more HP than Thieves
- RMs can use much more magic than Thieves
- RMs have more MagDef than Thieves.
Red Mages are just gods near the start of the game and somewhat in the middle. At least in my experience anyways. But ya any guy for can break out a cure 2 followed by a fire 2 spell while doing some great damage with his sword is definatly on my party list.
Although by the end they kind of suck compared to other classes, but I hear just give em a sun sword and fast em and they become gods again.
Although you could not go with Red Mage, bt you miss out on the sweetness of going from burning the monsters to a crisp with black magic then switching on to healing up the party, then back to burning, all in one fight.
Red Mages are good fighters and can use most of the decent spells in the game. Having that extra power helped near the start and another player with Life1 is good insurance if the White Mage goes down. Near the end if you give them the Masamune they can kill most baddies with one hit.
Red Mages are all around good characters. A beginner can have a ball with them. Wear it out like a rag, and then use it as minor assist in the late game.
I don't like the red mage because it never finishes the job. You gotta equip him with the Masmune, in most cases, to kill a freaking worm in one hit.
Ohterwise it's all a wait. Knight attacks Worm, 500 dmg. Worm dies. BB attacks Worm, 550 dmg. Worm Dies. RM attacks Worm, 346 dmg. Worm attacks BM, 140 DMG, BW (Who had lost Hps recently) dies!
I hate having to have another character finish the mess when one combatant doesn't kill a monster that it should have killed. Big problem with this with RM. Even the Ninja has a better chance of not needing assistance than the RM.
Also, the RM has dung for running skills. The fighter and blackbelt and even the WM seem to get more close calls. That, combined with the RMs incapacity to finish what he starts, gives me reason to click to the pure breed class of my preference.
Also, if you're a veteran player, you have no need for the overwhelming power that a Red Mage brings to the early game. You'
re looking for a challenge, not mush. I wouldn't use a red mage on the basis that it's practically cheating in the beginning and utterly annoying in the end.
So that's my opinion.
Your asking for the Red Mage to become a uber melee. That's not what they are, they are a mix of magic and fighting, not as good at fighting like the monk and warrior, but having the magic to heal and nuke when needed. If your complaining a Red Mage can't kill a strong monster in one hit like the melee, might as well complain Ninja can't kill them in one hit, or Black Mage, or White Mage.Quote:
I hate having to have another character finish the mess when one combatant doesn't kill a monster that it should have killed.
The thing about a Red Mage it is meant to excel in fighting over the other mages (which it does) but not be so godly strong that it IS a melee. And on the other hand it casts magic but so much that it becomes only a mage. It's a mix of the two and that's why it's such a good class, because you get a guy who can whip out a FIR2 to decimate the enemies, then a CUR2 to keep your tank up, then bring out his sword and conserve MP will still doing some good damage to the monsters.
But it can't do all that at once. And, ultimately, it's going to have to be all meelee because the spell power falls to pieces. It simply becomes inferior to the ninja because the ninja can cast Fast AND do more damage.
What's the RM going to do? Cast Ice3 against monsters w/o weak points?
Nah. It's still a pain in the arse whichever way you look at it. And it's an insult to the use of a sword like the Defense, which can actually kill things in the hands of a Knight.
Edit: Yeah, I'm impossible.
Actually Red Mage get's fast as well. And in addition, unlike a Ninja, can cast Life and other cure spells. Anyone who knows how to use a Red Mage to thier fullest knows that you can't just take one aspect of them, like the other classes, and just do that one this over and over. A truly effective Red Mage will be nuking as needed, curing when needed or if the White Mage is taken down, and meleeing to help kill/damage enemies. Not to mention they add much more MP that can be put to better use than any Ninja, in addition to them learning more spells and wider variety of spells. In addition they can help get through the tough dungeons by helping the White Mages conserve thier MP for healing later on.
Over all I'ld say a Red Mage used right is very useful.
Right. It's an absolute assist character. It can't do anything on it's own.
My experience is that the spell points run out too fast, and then the fighting skill is too mediocre. It is too versatile to be effective. Too much crap crammed into a single character. You gotta decide whether or not to kill the zombies or whether your fighter will get hurt and need a cure down the road... You gotta decide whether to use a spell or not...
Maybe it's good for a veteran who wants to find a challenge, but that's your own look-out. I like a challenge, and I use RMs accordingly, but I wouldn't actually call it a good class. Useful maybe, but not all that great.
Ultimately, Red mages never last. It's always better to take a pure class. Either cast a spell or fight. You can't do everything at once and still be effective.
That's still my standing opinion.
And I freaking know that RMs can cast FAST. I meant that a Ninja can do it as easily, not that RMs can't.
Maybe that will teach you to not take a Bm. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
Nah, the Ninja with the Katana has just a good chance to kill a Worm as a RW with the Sun Sword. The Katana is only a little stronger then the Sun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
Well running isnt a big problem. I rarely have a 4 person party that fails to run when I really need to. Besides the Rm has just a good chance to run as the Bm/Wm/Fi/BB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
That is wrong. There are many veterans (like myself) who use the Rm all the time. I dont really need a challenge anymore. After beating all the solos (including the Solo Thief No class change), there really isnt that much challenge left to the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
1. The Rw has more magic then the Ninja. Making him more usefull.
2. The Rw has more spell choices then the Ninja.
3. The Rw doesnt need to do it all at once. No point in healing every damn turn, or casting spells every turn.
4. If the Monster happens to be a Gas Dragon then yes, the Rw SHOULD cast ICE3. That will be more helpful in that fight then a Ninja with the Katana.
Ok if you run out of spells with the Rm before you do with the Ninja then you dont know how to use the Rm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
At the end of the game, yeah he sort of is. But so is the Ninja. At least the Rm is NOT an assist in the beginning. He is a great character. Unlike the thief who is worthless and CANNOT do anything usefull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
Heh, this is a long post.
You can't tell me I'm wrong.
This is all strictly opinion.
You want my opinion? The Red Mage is a waste of a character. It's boring, it's not original, and it has no style except for the hat and cape (And the cape has bad graphics so, when I was younger, I thought he was casting spells through a water hose).
Making a character that does everything everybody else does, but worse, isn't cool enough for me. I don't care how useful he is. I don't care if he's an early to mid game god or if he's the greatest assist ever, he's a lousy character. A dull and generally bad concept. I don't like him! I don't like him! At least the Thief and Ninja have some dignity in being unique.
The Red Mage makes for a dull game. Either toio easy or too annoying. And if you find the RM to not be annoying, then good for you. What am I, chopped liver? (Yes?)
Anyway, I want to bail out of this debate.
I would take the Red Mage if he could equip the fire/ice shield/armor (I give the opal bracelt to my black belt). I find the hardest part about this game is your armor equipment management. You only get 16 slots for armor, and yet there are times where you want different armor eq for different situations, but don't really have the option to switch because you're restricted by how much you can hold. I just find it odd how the Red Mage can equip heavier armor/weapons than the Thief, but the Ninja can equip heavier armor than the Red Wizard; it truly shows how the Red Mage is a great early game character and the Red Wizard is a crap late game character. And no, the Red Mage is only the second best fighter for the early part of the game. I find that the black belt is the second best fighter after level 10 or so, and the best fighter after level 24 or so.
Anyway, the best thing about a Red Wizard, is that he can cast both Exit and Warp (good for the last level), and if you want an all melee party, then he's better to take than a BW or WW.
A red mage is just perhaps someone's preference. But I think you're right-- red mage is pretty useless to a seasoned player.
I'm so happy this turned out as well as it did. Although I feel I should apologize to Martyr for not being able to back him when he was fighting the good fight.
I also feel that I should add something. It is kinda stupid to make a thread and not post in it. I currently have many parties on many different games, and one of them is the powerhouse FI/FI/RM/BB. I have one major problem with this party, and that is the Red Mage. His attack strength pales in comparison to the other three, and I continuously find myself wishing I had taken a Black Mage instead. I have to conserve magic, even though they are level 13 or so. I'm getting steel armor, beating lich, and I don't even have one FIR3 yet. How are you supposed to use the helpful magical fighter when he has no spells to cast and his attack strength is terrible? With a White or Black Mage, they would already have at least two Cure 3 or Fire 3's. I just got Ice2 today. By which I mean I've had it bought since Marsh Cave, and I just got the MP to use it. I can honestly say that I will probably never use one again unless I lose all playing ability and I'm level 20 before I fight the pirates. By that point, the Red Mage might have one, or maybe even two Ice's!!! Wow!! That would be bad!
Also, in the armor aspect, I would take a Ninja over the Red Wizard any day. Flame Armor totally kills Silver. If you find it in a store, it probably isn't the best weapon or armor. The Ninja, biased as I am, is still better in attack with the Katana and defense with the Flame/Ice Armor than the Red Wizard. Everyone says, hey, give the RW the masamune and he'll kill almost anything in one hit! That goes for every character class! And another thing, the only enemies you are going to kill with the Masamune are enemies on the last two floors of the ToF 2000 years ago. The only way you are going to get out with it is if you take a good mage. And taking a Black/White mage with a red is stupid. After beating Kraken you'll realize how dumb you are for not taking a fighter or another mage to fill the spot. When you say, alright, LIT3 Kraken, and the only character you have with it is the BW, because the idiot Red hasn't gotten any yet, you'll switch to FAST, since you'll know the RW's attack is crummy beyond belief. So you use FAST on the RW, or maybe your Fighter, and while they kill Kraken, you just wasted one of 3 level four spells you've gotten by level 18. Congratulations, you have a useless character.
OK, enough ranting, but I have another question.
I enjoy having as many as 20 saved games at once. I need some new paries to try.
The ones I have currently are:
Single Master
Single Thief (going nowhere fast)
Fi/BB/WM/BM (Marak's Mod, pretty fun)
four BBs
FI/FI/RM/BB (Amusing, but kinda lame)
FI/BB/WM/BM (Regular game, didn't realize I had it till just now)
I can't believe that's it. Feed me parties, people, preferably nothing with RM's, unless it's something nuts, like FI/Fi/RM/RM, or RMx4.
I may post screenshots sometime, if I feel like it.
Ummm..Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
That is not an opinion. You are saying that vets like myself dont want to/need to use the Red Mage. You are TELLING us what we want. That is NOT an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Mage FF1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
I was correcting you here because you were wrong. The Rm/Rw does not need to all that at once. And the Rm/RW has more Magic then the Ninja. Plus ICE3 is helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Mage FF1
*sigh* There are MANY MANY MANY MANY vets who use the Rm. They like myself prefer him over the useless Black Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword Chucks
Umm yeah, you do know that no other character can compare to the Damage of the Knight/Master. The Thief does not even come CLOSE. At least in the beginning the RM is stronger then the Thief and Black Belt. Why take the Bm? What will he do? Cast worthless magic? Attack for crap dmg?Quote:
Originally Posted by BottledJustice
You just dont know how to use the Red Mage. There is no need for Fire3 in the Earth Cave. The amount of magic he has is more then enough needed to complete it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottled Justice
You do know that the Rw can cast Exit too? But there is no point in leaving the TofR when you get the Masamune. Matter as well go beat the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by BottledJustice
Umm Lit3 doesnt do that much dmg to Kraken. Rw w/Fast/Sun or Defense = more dmg then the BW with Lit3. WOW! You wasted 1 of the lvl 4 spell charges! Even though at the TofR all the lvl 4 spells besides FAST are useless! Hell you dont need to use the fast spell for every boss fight in there. Just CHAOS/Lich/Kraken/Tiamat. At lvl 18 he has 4 and that is enough. At least when the Rm is out of magic he can attack and be useful, unlike the Bm.
BTW any party is better without a thief. Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm > Fi/Fi/Fi/Th. Thieves suck. Rm = better.
Lets see.
Throughout half the game the Rm does more damage then the Thief.
The Rm actually has magic.
The Rm has more Hp then the Thief
The Rm Mage as better defense
After Class change
The Ninja is still weaker until you get the Katana. Then he gets A LITTLE stronger then the Rm.
The Ninja has magic but the Rm still has more.
The Ninja gets some better armor. But so what? He gets it so late that it doesnt even matter.
From now on let's not call eachother wrong and just say why we disagree. Because basically that's all you are doing. Example:
'Ninja can learn Ice3.'
That is wrong. Feel free to correct someone in a polite fashion.
'Ice3 on a Red Wizard is useless.'
This is an opinion. Calling it wrong is the same thing as saying you disagree. Please use this type of phrasing in the future. Feel free to disagree and say who you do, of course, in a poilte and courteous fashion.
Also, don't double post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Umm him saying the "seasond players" dont use Rm is not an opinion. The thing with ICE3, ok yeah that is an opinion. But MY opinion is that it is a good spell. Just as usefull as Nuke.
Sorry for the double post, it was an accident.
That type of remark can be taken two ways. True, it can be observed as being told what you want, but on the other hand it could just be his opinion of what he thinks seasoned players want. So you can respond with:
'You are TELLING us what we want. That is NOT an opinion.'
'I disagree. I am a veteran player and I play the games because...'
Use your judgement on which is the better response.
Also, I fixed your double post for you so don't worry about it. :D
Alright I will try harder to be more polite.
Thanks for fixing it, that is a LARGE post. O_o
Your "which party is better" contrast is inadequate because the RM is a wizard. Clearly, a party with magic capabilities is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Mage FF1
You have to ask:
F/?/WM/BM
Is it better to have an intermediary character that can assist everybody in their efforts, or is it better to have a Thief that can run away (Instead of fight, when things are getting nasty), and can be a better fighter later on in the game.
Also, the Ninja can get the Ice Shield and Flame Armor before class change (That is, those items are available and immediately accessible as soon as class change takes pace). Both him and the RW can carry the defense, and by the time the RW can carry the Sun Sword (Which the Ninja can also use), you may as well have the Katana as well.
The way I see it, the RM is superior before class change. That's because it's better to prepare for fighting instead of preparing to run away. But the Ninja is better afterward. Because, despite the fact that it's afterward, the Ninja is stronger on the attack and defense. And the defense is stronger soon, like, the moment class change takes place.
After that, all RM has on the Ninja is Life, Exit, and Ice3, Fire3, and Lit3.
So, in a party with two mages, the RM becomes less useful. Most of the time, the Ninja and RW are washed out simply because of magic items and the fact that a Fighter is just too good.
Hey! There's the answer. The RW simply answers for magic if you want it. That means that it's reaching maximum usefulness in a party with 3 fighters, but isn't very important in a party with 2 white mages (Or something like that)
I think, Black Mage FF1, that you like the RM so much because you seem to loathe BMs. I can see how Ice3 without a black mage would seem infinitely better than Fast and lv. 3 black magic (Which can be found in items anyway).
Note: Ninja, of course, can still run like Hell when he has to. That and fight and assist!
But I felt I had to respond again. Even though it's getting to be closing time. I just didn't like the way you compared the two with 3 fighters instead of adding variety to the parties in consideration.
Well you see, I rather have the Red Mage. I mean, a character who can cast white and black magic, has good attack and defense is more important to me then a little wuss who can run. Running isnt really a big deal to me. I rarely have a 4 person party fail to run when I need to. But that is just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
Shouldnt forget Cure1-3 and he has more magic points. The Red Mage gets a helluva lot more MP. Which IMO makes him more usefull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
Yeah, you got that right. Its not really that I hate the thieves. Its just that I hate the Bm. Which is why I take a Rm. No point in taking the Bm when you have a Rm. Thats why I like to use Fi/Th/BB/Rm. After completing this game many times I found the Wm/Bm to be useless to me. I found that 1 red mage works just as well. Thats why I like him so much. What you should do is give the Rm another chance. Try a Fi/Th/BB/Rm party or a Fi/Fi/Rm/Wm or a Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm. You can really see the Rm potential in those parties.Quote:
I think, Black Mage FF1, that you like the RM so much because you seem to loathe BMs. I can see how Ice3 without a black mage would seem infinitely better than Fast and lv. 3 black magic (Which can be found in items anyway).
Fire 3 O_O ooh, Cure 2 O_O ooh , shall I continue?
I love the Red Mage, in my opinion there is no class cooler. Whoever says they are useless in the later game has either never used one or has used one poorly. Having a Red Mage leves your other mages avaliable (assuming you have other mages) to use their more powerful spells whil he uses the nesscary fast or alit spell. Not to mention the sword skills just as powerful as the Thief/Ninja and he has decent armor to boot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBman108
The problem with redmage is....
they have ok abilities but can only use 1 at a time. This means you have to make sure they are doing the right job at the right time....this is a total bummer when you could just have a white mage heal, black mage nuke, fighter chop things up, and thief run like heck. You talk about being....ok...in many areas as being a strongpoint. you dont NEED a multirole charicter because you can only do 1 thing a turn and you want that thing your doing to be effective, not some half arsed spell or limp wristed slash. Besides, Red mages are REALY expensive and cant even learn the best spells!
Redmage < Thief
The redmage isn't as usefull as a thief. The thief can run from scary things and is realy cheap to buy for.
Sure.... If you want......Quote:
Originally Posted by Grover
If you have a good party then you are not going to need to heal/use black magic/attack all at the same time. If you dont have a Wm/Bm then that is 2 extra spots for better characters. Replace those to spots with 2 Red Mages then the problem is solved. Have one red mage heal and another cast spells. Or Take a red mage and a Fighter. The more fighters you have the less you will need to heal. Which is why a Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm > Fi/?/Wm/Bm. With a Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm you can easily kill any enemy and you dont need healing that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
Red Mages are not that expensive. A Wm/Bm are A LOT more expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
Cant learn the best spells? The only spells he misses out on that are worth getting is NUKE and LIFE2. WOW! He doesnt get to cast NUKE or LIFE2 1 or 2 times! If you didnt have weak characters like the Wm/Bm there wouldnt be any use for LIFE2. And NUKE is easily replaced with ICE3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
WOW! The Thief can run! That sure is going to help in boss fights! The Red Mage is stronger then the thief, has more magic, has more spells, better defense and more hp. But I guess being able to run from imps or wolves is more important.... :lol:
Like I said earlier, I rarely have any 4 person party fail to run on my first try.
After class change the NINJA has a little better defense. But the Red Mage still has more hp and defense really isnt a big problem.
for once i agree with Black Mage FF1 :Oo:
except for his hatred of BM, but thats a given :D
The RM is better than the BM and WM hands down as he has something to fall back on when his magic runs out, unlike the pure mages with their mighty cat claws and thor hammers!!! The only usefull spells that they have on him are LIF2 and NUKE, which you only have a couple charges of once you reach the ToF.
The Fighter and Black Belt outclass the RM as they can take/deal respectively, insane amounts of damage, to the point where no healing/nukes are needed. Why cast a level 3 elemental spell against monsters who will resist it (thinking ToF) than attack for a solid 200-2000+ depending on your leveles.
The Ninja is on par with the RM as he has hands down superior defense and a similar offense. This is offset by the RM's vast repertoire of more varied magics, the only useful spell the Ninja gets is FAST.
Disclaimer: I played the NES version of FF1 ages and ages ago...beat it once with a Fi/Th/WM/BM party. Started playing it again on a WSC emulator with various parties...so my comments come from that perspective. I know there are differences between the new and old versions, so if you are playing on the NES version, take all my comments with a grain of salt.
Comparing the RM/RW to the thief/ninja:
First off, as has been stated before, RM is far far better than theif before you get the class change. No argument here, right?
After class change, the ninja has better defences. Again, no argument...though the two classes have similar hps. Their attacking power is the same. I played a Fi/Th/BB/RM party to see how they compared to one another. I didn't see any real difference in the damage done by the RW or ninja...not surprising as neither of them has excessive str, and the katana and sun sword are nearly identical. But the RM has access to the lvl 3 elemental spells, which can be useful against big groups...by later points in the game, fire2 just don't do enough damage to cast. And the RM can cast Life...nice to have since there are no pheonix downs. And the RM has cure spells, which are handy for the ToF when you need all the healing you can get.
So it's a question of whether or not the ninja's greater defense is better than the RW's greater spellcasting and the RM's better utility in the early game. I'd say no way.
Also, if we are talking about what characters make up an optimal party, why take a thief over a fighter? Basically, the ninja can cast fast. But he has worse defence, less damage, and less hps than a fighter, and the knight can cast healing spells. The fighter is simply better. And at this stage in the game, the ninja's elemental spells are pretty useless.
But at all stages in the game, healing spells are nice to have. Being able to bring the dead back to life is very useful. Early in the game spells like ice/fire/lit2 or 3 are really useful...but the ninja doesn't get these until you no longer really need them; and when you do, you need the level 3 versions, not the level 2 versions the ninja can cast.
So all in all, if you want a spellcaster that can fight, take a RM, not a ninja. If you want someone to tank and do damage, take a fighter. There really isn't a whole lot of point to taking a ninja really...
The most powerful party I've had had a red mage in it. 3 black belts & a red mage, mostly for curing and casting Fast.
3 black belts? You mean Fighters, right?
Black Belts OWN.
Actually, that's a pretty decent party. Red Mages are like gods early in the game, and then lose steam later on...right when the black belts, who suck a mountain of bum the size of the Death Star early in the game, start to come into their own as the most abundantly damage-dealing powerhouses in the world.
But such a party has no tanks. Sure a black belt deals a bit more damage than a fighter...depending on the level of the characters and what weapons the fighter has found. But the fighter has better armor, has more hps (for most of the game at least...I think the BB has more hps at levels past 35), and can do some healing after class change. He is a little behind in the damage department, but not by much.
So if you are looking at damage dealt only, then yes, black belts do the most damage and, as you put it, "OWN." If you are looking at the best addition to the party, the fighter is only slightly behind in terms of damage dealing and way ahead in all other categories.
1 fighter, 2 black belts and 1 red mage = best party ever. Give your red mage the masamune, and now everyone in your party can deal huge amounts of damage, you have your tank in the fighter, and your 2 black belts will get decent defense towards the end of the game. Also you can take advantage of the black belt absorb bug, and give your black belts ribbons and prorings and still have their absorb=their level. Oh and the red mage has his magic when needed. Good stuff.
Statistically the RM is the third-best character, the FT and BB being first and second respectively. Ninja only has a slight defensive advantage over RW and the BM and WM are useless at normal levels as they have low amounts of useful spells.
Well Red mages. are very usefull at low levels.. you could replace a white mage with them at the beginning of the game.. They can use Swords they have higher defense than white mages and can use black magic..
later on in the game replace him/her with a white mage as he'she become useless..
you cant replace members in FF1
That's true.
Red Mages are great for many things. If you want only one magic user in your party, a Red Mage would be the obvious choice (though a White Mage is also good, you'll just have to run from some things). If you have no Fighters in your party (I'm not too fond of them), a Red Mage is a good front row man. If you like hacking and slashing more than tediously casting spells, Red Mages are the only Mages with decent swords.
They also have very cool hats...
Considering there are only 3-4 good (and consistently useful) spells to get for any given level, sometimes less, the Red Mage is like, >>> Black Mage. I even have Life2 and Nuke (I'm not quite sure how) on my Red Mage in a recent game I did, so the Black Mage has 0 advantage.
I won't go about comparing Red Mage and Thief, they both have their uses.
Yeah, the Red Mages are very useful. I love to use them alot, especially since I love the thieves! :skull: I think that they are very good! They save you some space for a different party member, like I use a Warrior, a theif, Red Mage, and a Monk. :skull: