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I learned in global 2 today that the pope owns the smallest country in the world. I think its 5 square miles. Thats only twice the size of my town. The country is called vatican city. How does someone become a pope. Also does it make any sense the the cristians are ruled by someone who cannot wipe their own ass? To the pope mobile!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tergriffin.gif
Edit: If you are an easily offended or a proud christian. look away.
You only just found out?...
Yes, the Vatican is a country, all on its own. It even has an army of some 500 VICIOUS (actually, not so much) fighters, with INTIMIDATING tights. They look cute. ^_^ I don't think the Vatican has much of other systems, most countries have... I think Italy provides much of those services, and the funding... well, let's just say there are LOTS of Catholics in the world.
Hrmm, your like what, 16 and ya dont know this?
Man what does your school teach you?
I learned this when i was around 8 (and im an aethiest.)
I really dont see the need to mock an old, invalid man, Carnage. The Pope is not a ruler, he's a leader, and it's only for Catholics. From what I remember reading the Pope is selected by vatican officials (arch bishops and the like... I dont know the Catholic chain of command, sorry), though I'm not sure.
edit: and to note, I do find all the Family Guy jokes about the Pope funny, I just dont think it's all that classy to mock someone about their lack of health.
Ill try to act like i care about how other people feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
I wish they taught me religion in school cause then i could have them all fired. But i do not follow any form of religion so im always in the dark about stuff like this. Like the virgin mary? The whole concept makes no sense. But i think i have bothered enough people so i wont bring anything else up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunday Man
(I don't look away when people try to offend me)
Catholics aren't Christians. They're Catholics.
Never forget that.
I'm not easily offended, nor a 'proud Christian'. I'd think it was rude to make fun of a old ANYONE for not being able to do all the things he could do when he was healthy. I dont see why that's hard to understand. You're making fun of an old man for not being able to take care of himself, I dont care who he is.
All Catholics are Christians - not all Christians are Catholics.Quote:
Catholics aren't Christians. They're Catholics.
Knowing what the Vatican is has little to do with religious studies. It's common knowledge, something every todder knows. Also - why would they be fired, if they taught you something? Religion is a cool subject. Ignorance however... seems to be something you like to endorse.Quote:
I wish they taught me religion in school cause then i could have them all fired.
And this Pope, unlike so many others before, is actually a good man. He helped Jews during the Holocaust (as a Polish minister), and was the first Pope in 2000 years, to apologise for the Chruch's persecution of the Jews. Also... he was quite a rascal when he was a lad, and a young man. He's not an ignorant, who doesn't know what the secular life is like. I happen to like the guy, as old and pathetic now as he may be.Quote:
I'm not easily offended, nor a 'proud Christian'. I'd think it was rude to make fun of a old ANYONE for not being able to do all the things he could do when he was healthy. I dont see why that's hard to understand. You're making fun of an old man for not being able to take care of himself, I dont care who he is.
Carnage, caring or pretending to care about how other people feel is requisite to retaining the privilege of posting in this forum, thanks. Everyone else, please avoid personal attacks and stay on topic, thanks.
He's elected by a conclave of Cardinals. See http://www.catholic-pages.com/pope/election.asp for more information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
They are by that definition.Quote:
Originally Posted by dictionary.com
And that one.Quote:
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
And that one.Quote:
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
This one is true by implication, from the above three.Quote:
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
This is a looser definition, and almost certainly not what you intended.Quote:
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
Which definition of Christian are you using, Martyr? Perhaps my dictionary is missing one.
You know, they used to have a pope hammer that they would bop him with to make sure he was just sleeping. I learned that in california in some catholic museam.
xD really? Do you know where in California? I wanna go!Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
San diegoQuote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
The museam is called "The Vatican" go figure... Or maybe it was just a display. Ok honestly, I didn't go there. My grandmother went there while I was passed out on the couch. She told me alot though. I WAS in san diego though.
I'm not referring to the dictionary so much as the practices of the religions. That and, for the most part, what we call ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Unne
Maybe Catholics have roots in Christianity the same way Christianity has roots in Judaism. But if you talk to somebody who calls himself a Christian, but is not Catholic, then you'll find it's a fairly different belief system.
There's the definition I'm using.
In any event, I brought that up because I hate being placed in the same catagory as the Catholics. The pope means nothing more to me than anybody else! It irks me, that's all.
*ahem*
Christianity is divided into three (four if you count the Gnostics) branches:
Catholics, Protestants and the Orthodox church. Each of these has their own divisions.
Now. By your argument, Martyr, that Catholics aren't Christian because some Catholics have very separate beliefs seems to have a lot of holes. I could use the same arguments for saying that the Protestants or the Orthodox aren't Christians either, but they most certainly are. As a matter of fact, Catholocism, along with Gnosticism was the FIRST branch of Christianity, and when they basically wiped out the Gnostics, they were the only Christians until the Byzantine Empire, which was Orthodox, and followed by the Protestant (or Lutheran, depends on how you look at it) church. They are all still Christian.
*clears throat*
Sorry for the history lesson, but for some reason it irritates me when people say *insert denomination* aren't *insert religion* when it is obviously true.
Christianity = belief in christ
actually, catholics are christians. its CHRISTIANS that are not CATHOLIC. a christian is ne1 who believes in christ, and catholicism(?) is just a sub-divisionQuote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
i think im right...some1 double check 4 me :)
Yes, a christian is anyone who believes in Christ. And Catholicism is one segment or subdivision like you said of the the christian faith.
Though Catholicism was the original faith Jesus started and the Prodestant faiths are all spinoffs of Catholicism.
I'd find I could respect this thread quite a bit more if it weren't so obviously set up to take pot-shots at the Pope and Roman Catholicism in general.
First off, no matter what definition you are using, Catholics are Christians. If you want to say that they aren't you are free to do so but the fact remains that by both definition and belief you are dead wrong. Not only are Catholics Christians, by the way, but they are the FIRST Christians. Catholicism evolved from the gradual split from Judaism after the death of Jesus, and it is probably safe to say that they became their own, independant and recognized faith after the Bible was completed under the Roman Emperor Constantine.
Secondly, the next person to be Pope will be a Cardinal who is, as Unne said, chosen by an assembly of Cardinals. The Pope's time is drawing to a close, and there are many precedents for his replacement. I don't believe I need to detail them because Unne was kind enough to post the links to sites that do it for me.
And finally, the state of the Vatican is something that should be taught in both religious and secular schools because it is not strictly a religious subject. Any school that teaches about countries and borders must recognize the Vatican as its own independant state, it is wrong to say it is merely a part of Italy.
EDIT: There IS a reason one of the major Christian denominations is called the "Protestant" movement.
This is something interesting I've recently found out. Why, exactly, does the Church get this sector of Rome for itself? HMMM???
Well, the document that they based this right to "own" Rome is a document that the Church says was written by Constantine, when he moved the Roman capital to Constantinople (modern-day Instabul). However, if you read Lorenzo Valla's expose of this document, he very convincingly proves it to be a forgery, written sometime in the 9th century. So technically, the premise in which the Catholic Church owns the Vatican is in reality, a big lie. But of course, lies is what most of the Catholic Church was based on for much of history. And that is a fact, not in any way an opinion; consider the sale of indulgences, and the fact that a man that is supposedly ordained by God can be given to three different people when one of them doesn't serve your country (The Second Great Schism).
And yes, the Vatican is a country. Other small countries include Monaco, San Marino, and Andorra.
*disregards talk of Catholic/Christian Non-sense*
I think the vatican is actually about 2 square miles and not 5. Still really small but its smaller yet.
Martyr, why not just come out and say it that you think that the Vatican is a tool of Satan, and all Catholics are going to hell, and so on and so forth? I'm sure you could post some Chick Tracts to round out the thread, and then we can all go out for punch and pie.
War Angel - Actually, as far as I know, The Swiss Guard is a very prestigous organization, and looking good in tights is only one of the MANY requirements.
KB - I think you'd be hard pressed to find any large organization that WASN'T horribly corrupt during the middle ages.
darkchrono - I, personally, get the impression that Jesus didn't like organized religion very much, and the Catholic Church is far from what he envisioned. Then again, if he truly was blessed with incredible foresight or divinity, perhaps he saw the need for an organized faith, to spread his word as far as possible.
EDIT: Also, The Holy See is a mere 0.17 square miles.
damn, i want my own island. free drinks all around!!!!!!!do you guys wonder what the pope does with his own island?its prolly better than the playboy mansion, lol. sorry if i offended ne1, im catholic, but i mean i've always wondered... :rolleyes2
...Island? Rome's not really a body of water, in the traditional sense.
The same point could be made about ANY religion. If there is no god, than all of religion is based off of lies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirobaito
He could be not paying attention! Anyway I think is wrong for the pope to ahve his own country! Why does he have it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunday Man
Honestly I didn't know that the Vatican was a country until I read Angels and Demons earlier this year. But then I never payed attention in my after school Catholic school.
Then the point CAN'T be made about any religion because God has not been disproven.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
No one has ever prove that God exists
Christians aren't ruled by the pope so we don't care. Catholics however are a different matter.
No one has ever prove that God doesn't. :rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinity
So the point cannot be made that religions are built on lies...
The point can be made that religions are built on faith.
Not based on lies but only on suppositions...
Religion is based on faithQuote:
Originally Posted by Divinity
In faith of what if nothing us prove... how do I know that God exist? Can i have faith in one thing that I don't know if it exists?
You can't have faith in something that you don't believe exists.
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty
You can't have faith in something that you don't believe or / You can't have faith in something that you don't know if it exists? Is this what you are trying to say?
of course you can. thats why its faith. believing in something completely while others don't. prove aliens exist. you haven't. but do some still believe in them while others don't?of course!Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinity
religion is a natural human instinct. voltaire once said if there wasn't a god, mankind would need to create one, or something along those lines. i think without a supernatural being watching over us, most humans would be sacred of the fact that everything won't turn out "alright" and that we could destroy the world in an instant. god is sort of a "comfort zone" in the sense that no matter how much wrong we do, there's still a way to find complete happiness.
overall:humans subconciously are scared of their own power, so we've created a "supervisor" in a sense to watch over us and make sure everythings ok to give us comfort.
if ive offended ne1 im sorry, im catholic, but when i say "we've created", im making a point 2wards those that aren't.
sorry for the "preaching" lol, i have nothing 2 do this early in the morning :p
What I meant was if you don't believe yourself that something exsists, how can you possibly have faith in it?
The Church gets the Vatican to itself because for a great length of time Pope was a secular as well as a religious role, and the Pope was the ruler of a large portion of Italy. The Papal states were overrun in the 1870s by the fledgling state of Italy, the Pope claimed 'prisoner' status and lobbied for international recognition and pressure on Italy to give back Rome. Eventually, the Italian government gave them the immediate vicinity of St. Peter's Square and the area surrounded by the old wall of the Pope's own lands. To say they claim a right to Rome because of forged documents is akin to saying Elizabeth II claims a right to Britain because William the Conqueror said Edward the Confessor had named him his successor. These things are thousands of years olds. The Pope claims a right to the Vatican because he always owned it. That he got it back is just a tribute to the political importance of Religion to governments in an unsteady position (in this case, the Italian fascists).Quote:
This is something interesting I've recently found out. Why, exactly, does the Church get this sector of Rome for itself? HMMM???
Considering that the purpose of schools is to educate, I've always felt that at least cursory Religious Education might even have a place in countries with seperation of church and state. Ignorance is never a good thing, and when it comes to ignorance about other religions it can often breed bigotry and ill informed, ill advised certainty on their evils. As evinced in this thread. If people aren't going to be taught this stuff, or at least read, then what can you expect.Quote:
wish they taught me religion in school cause then i could have them all fired.
If you had a class like that, fundies would request their children taken out of it. Someone in my school got out of reading The Odyssey because he decided it violated the first commandment or some such.
I dont know where you live but in america it is against the law. Or some sort of education act. A stone copy of the ten commandments was taken out of the supreme court building a year or so ago.Quote:
Knowing what the Vatican is has little to do with religious studies. It's common knowledge, something every todder knows. Also - why would they be fired, if they taught you something? Religion is a cool subject. Ignorance however... seems to be something you like to endorse.
Not if you're not endorsing any religion. A comparing world religions type class would be completely kosher.
For example
Way back when in 6th grade we learned about about christianity, judaism, islam, and hinduism. We learned about their history not about any of there beliefs. How they formed and stuff.
Actually, that was a court building in Alabama. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage
Then how is learning that the Vatican is it's own country and why against the law? That's not endorsing anything. I fully agree with Efli, and I wish we had world religion classes when I was in high school, just informative ones, not ones that endorse anything.
I don't really know when I learned about the Vatican...it seems like I've just always known about it or something :p (I'm not religious, by the way)
Also, we have a World Religions class in the Ontario high school curriculum, and while I haven't taken it, it's pretty much what people are calling for here - unbiased (well, as much as they can, I think...it would also depend on the teacher of course) information about many different religions.
To help clear up the issue of faith:
The entire idea of "faith" is that you BELIEVE in something without ever
having proof or ever being able to have proof that it is. That's what faith
is. If you knew something existed and you said it didn't, that'd just be
stupidity, on the other hand if you know something exists and you accept
that it does, that's just common sense. Faith is trusting your intuitions to
accept something that you know you may never understand.
As for the pope having his own country, Vatican City isn't really a country,
it's more of a state. The reason behind it is that the church needs to have
their own laws (Canon laws) in order to operate fully. Now anyone who is
a "citizen" of this state (meaning people who work for the church, priests,
bishops, etc) have the same sort of rights that embassadors have. If
they are found to have committed a crime, they can be tried under
Canon law or the law of the country in which they reside. This decision
is made by the church. Keep in mind that most bishops are actually a
form of lawyer. They study Canon law.
This is one of the reasons that China has many problems with Christians,
because they see all Christians as being citizens of Vatican City, and
since it is unlawful to be a citizen of more than one place in China,
there are some problems. ;\
.opt
I am glad to see that everyone seems to go into religious discussions now at this board with more acceptance of others opinions. Instead of just bad mouthing anyone and everyone else's opinion which didn't happen to agree with their own like what used to happen.
Those threads were all about 10-15 pages of pure nothing.
At least the religious threads now are actually accomplishing something.
Religious Education here in the UK (which is a compulsory subject up to age 14) teaches those things (with less about Judaism, and some about Sikhism and a cursory bit about Buddhism, reflecting the UK's different ethnic make up) as well as a basic outline of their beliefs, their practices and their culture. None of it is very indepth stuff, and you learn more about christianity than any other religion, especially later on when it turns into basic ethics. It does, however, teach kids enough that they don't fear the unknown, and some studies suggest that the better taught RE is, the more generally tolerant to minorities the school environment becomes.Quote:
Way back when in 6th grade we learned about about christianity, judaism, islam, and hinduism. We learned about their history not about any of there beliefs. How they formed and stuff.
One reason for the Vatican being a State, in addition to that mentioned by Optium, is that it allows the Church to wield secular power in the field of diplomacy, quite often with good results. It is one of the more active states in the UN, despite it's permanent observer status, as well as being a participant in the OCSE. It is the only European state to recognise the sovereignty of the Republic of China (Taiwan), and to refuse diplomatic recognition of China because of issues of human rights, as well as persecution of Catholics. And, believe it or not, it's a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. So we can all sleep easy knowing that there are no atomic stockpiles under St. Peter's Basilica.
Dan Brown would have us believe otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Efli
Yeah, that's basically what I'm trying to say. I don't know what a Chick Tract is. Is that what Christians pass out on the street?Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomgaze
Anyway... I see no point in arguing any further. Not that I feel defeated, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a good way to advance my opnion before yours.
It doesn't matter though, since Doomgaze and most of you have heard the bottom line behind me wanting total Catholic cessation from Christianity anyway.
So, since I feel obligated to respond after what's been said, goodnight.
And if you want to hurl insults about my bluntness or ignorance, remember that I'm just coming out into the open here, agreeing with what's been said.
I'm also not going to read anymore of this thread.
Forums take up too much time and I'm going to ask a mod to ban me.
Yup but they do have a BRAND NEW helipad :DQuote:
Originally Posted by War Angel