"Be careful. This isn't just a reactor" (spoilers, big ones)

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10-01-2004, 01:35 AM
Erdrick Holmes

"Be careful. This isn't just a reactor" (spoilers, big ones)

In most of the begining of the game Cloud has some sort of inner person speaking to him. Is this the Jenova cells in him speaking to him?

Also, notice how in the begining Cloud talks about him being in SOLDIER but later on we learn how it was really Zack who was in SOLDIER while Cloud was just a regular Shin-Ra guard. Is Cloud having these hillucinations because the Jenova in his body made him share memories with Zack or did he just say he was in SOLDIER to gain attention and help from his friends?
10-01-2004, 01:53 AM
TheAbominatrix

The inner voice is Cloud's own. His true self, buried deep down inside.

Cloud's not having hallucinations, he's merely in a deep deep state of denial. The trauma he endured with Zack caused a deep kinship between the two of them, and Cloud no doubt felt like he failed Zack (when Zack died on the way to Midgar) along with himself, Tifa, his mother, and everyone else in Nibelhiem. Zack was everything Cloud wanted to be, and his guilty, scared, and messed up mind created this alternate truth, using Zack's past (what he knew of it) and his own in a sort of hybrid story.

He didnt share memories with Zack, that's clear. If he did, he would have remembered Aerith. All the stuff he knew of Shin Ra he learned during his guard days.

It wasnt for attention either, but it may have been partly because he felt like he needed to live up to all the boasting he did in front of Tifa, and he needed her acceptance.
10-01-2004, 02:18 AM
Shoeberto

To clear up the SOLDIER thing, go into the basement of the Shinra Mansion in Nibelheim on disc 3. You'll see a scene that explains the whole shebangabang.
10-01-2004, 02:40 AM
Erdrick Holmes

I seen it but I still think that the Jenova in Cloud has something to do with Cloud's messed up memory.
10-01-2004, 02:48 AM
TheAbominatrix

If it messed up Cloud's memory, then why not the memory of every other SOLDIER out there? Why not Sephiroth's? The JENOVA inside of him allowed him to be manipulated and controlled, but it didnt effect his memory. He didnt think he was a different person. He was led to believe he was a different sort of person (ie: an Ancient), but he never had a personality crisis like Cloud's did. His own problems came from being mislead, not creating a false persona in order to deal with stress.
10-01-2004, 05:01 AM
Erdrick Holmes

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

If it messed up Cloud's memory, then why not the memory of every other SOLDIER out there? Why not Sephiroth's?

Well Zack and Cloud did have the same therapy done to them. I figured that the Jenova in their bodies sorta shared eachothers thoughts and memories due to having the same treatment. Cloud must have had Zack's soldier memory up to the point of when he was killed. I don't think anybody would lie about their own past. I'm guessing because the Jenova treatment was so strong that Zack's memory kind of overwrote Cloud's.
10-01-2004, 05:04 AM
TheAbominatrix

I dont see why that would happen, they were in seperate tanks for one. For two, Cloud didnt know anything but what Zack had shared with him (the two had talked before) and what he himself knew of Shin Ra. There's nothing to indicate he got anything from Zack directly (memory-wise).

Cloud wasnt out and out lying. He thought he was telling the truth.
10-01-2004, 07:02 AM
BackRoomKid

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

and Cloud no doubt felt like he failed Zack (when Zack died on the way to Midgar)

Wait, didn't Zack die from Sephorith killing him??? not from Midgar....right? Please explain....
10-01-2004, 07:11 AM
TheAbominatrix

Sephiroth did not kill Zack. Zack was wounded by Sephiroth and taken, with Cloud, to the basement of the Shin Ra mansion, where they were experimented on (this is where Cloud is infused with mako energy). They escaped together and headed for Midgar, but Zack was killed on the way.

Hsu has already refered to this scene. Check it out, it'll clear a lot up.
10-01-2004, 01:24 PM
Big D

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

I dont see why that would happen, they were in seperate tanks for one. For two, Cloud didnt know anything but what Zack had shared with him (the two had talked before) and what he himself knew of Shin Ra. There's nothing to indicate he got anything from Zack directly (memory-wise).

Cloud wasnt out and out lying. He thought he was telling the truth.

Yep. Cloud's big SOLDIER delusion was mostly based on Zack's stories, about his own experiences. The two were held captive for nearly five years; they had to do something to pass the time. So Zack described what he'd done, which is basically everything that Cloud had wanted to do. The addition of Jenova cells basically over-rode parts of Cloud's will and consciousness, so he started to 'live the dream', thinking that he really had been doing the things Zack had described.
10-01-2004, 10:16 PM
Blue Typhoon

And not since this game has Square Enix ever created something so deep...
10-01-2004, 10:21 PM
Carnage

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

He didnt share memories with Zack, that's clear. If he did, he would have remembered Aerith. All the stuff he knew of Shin Ra he learned during his guard days.

Zack knew aeris?
10-01-2004, 10:24 PM
Blue Typhoon

Yeah, Zach was Aeris' boyfriend...
10-01-2004, 11:16 PM
Erdrick Holmes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Typhoon

And not since this game has Square Enix ever created something so deep...

*coughXenogearscough*
10-01-2004, 11:39 PM
Kawaii Ryûkishi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnage

Zack knew aeris?

Zack dated Aeris. That's why Aeris found Cloud, a guy who looked and acted like he was Zack, so attractive. The game makes this clear a number of times.
10-01-2004, 11:39 PM
Azure Chrysanthemum

Quote:

*coughXenogearscough*
10-07-2004, 01:26 AM
DMKA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joel

*coughXenogearscough*
10-07-2004, 05:47 PM
Jolts

Why is everbody coughing?

*hands out cough drops*

Anyway, remember all them black cloaked figures at Nibel an Northern Crater and stuff? I'd like to know why #2 wasn't wearing a black cloak when you first see him. He's the sick guy inside that pipe in Sector 5 (Aeris asks you to help him if you go there on your way to her house).
10-07-2004, 09:07 PM
DMKA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolts

I'd like to know why #2 wasn't wearing a black cloak when you first see him. He's the sick guy inside that pipe in Sector 5 (Aeris asks you to help him if you go there on your way to her house).

Wow in the 7 years I've been playing that game I never realized he was one of them. :eek:
10-07-2004, 10:26 PM
Big D

[q=Jolts]I'd like to know why #2 wasn't wearing a black cloak when you first see him. He's the sick guy inside that pipe in Sector 5 (Aeris asks you to help him if you go there on your way to her house).
[/q]Different people get affected in different ways. Maybe he just didn't have a black cloak handy? Could just be that he felt the 'homing instinct' and not the other parts of the Reunion process.
A unique response, kind of like the ex-SOLDIER who owns a store in Junon; after disc one, he's wearing a black cloak, but he doesn't have any urge to stroll off somewhere. His different circumstances meant the Reunion effect didn't take the same toll on him.

As for the guy in the pipe again... there's a far-fetched conspiracy theory that he's actually (SPOILER)Zack, but that's generally discredited. See the EoFF archive for details...
10-08-2004, 01:11 AM
SeeDRankLou

My thoughts on Cloud's delusion is partially in agreement with TheAbominatrix. But I do think that Jenova cells did do something to him. When Tifa finds Cloud, he is basically gone, he looks like he's barely aware of what's going on, but he does still have enough of himself left to recognize Tifa. I forget the exact quote, but Sephiroth says that Jenova cells have the power to changes one's appearance, one's thoughts, even one's memories. So Tifa finds him, and she starts saying things to him that I think trigger a Jenova cell effect that changes Cloud, because of what TheAbominatrix said about Cloud wanting to live up what he said to Tifa when they were younger. So Tifa said that Cloud was Cloud, triggering the Jenova cells to make him....Cloud. Then she said he was a SOLDIER, triggering the Jenova cells to make him a SOLDIER. This changed his appearance, making him stronger with mako eyes, ect. ect. But I think that Cloud's knowledge of SOLDIER, i.e. Zack, also went into that, kind of copying things Zack told him over his own memories, which is why when we recalls something his memories are jumbled and out of place at times. And Cloud basically became that person he told Tifa that he would become. But it's not really him, and his concience is in there somewhere along with Jenova and also this new person the Jenova cells have made him be that everyone sees. It's his feelings for Tifa and his want to be that person for her that really saves him from the fate the rest of the Sephiroth clones share. At least that's how I saw things. Really, the only relevance that I saw for Sephiroth saying the line about what Jenova cells are capable of was to say what that Cloud was really just a Sephiroth clone to confuse him and the audience. And when you find out that he was actually Cloud before becoming a Sephiroth clone and not just a science experiment that the meaning was changed . I also think that's the only relevence of the flashback Tifa has of finding Cloud in Midgar.
10-08-2004, 03:38 AM
abrojtm

I'm pretty sure that this is explained in the whole lifestream scene, but is the Cloud in his childhood memories with Tifa really him or is it Zack?
10-08-2004, 03:47 AM
TheAbominatrix

It's Cloud. As explained by the fact that Zack was born and raised in a completly different town. Zack has no connection with Tifa, save for when he came as a SOLDIER to Nibelhiem.
10-08-2004, 05:11 AM
Doomgaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Typhoon

And not since this game has Square Enix ever created something so deep...

There's a difference between "deep" and "convoluted".
10-08-2004, 02:01 PM
Blue Typhoon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joel

*coughXenogearscough*

I've never played that game before, and I haven't really heard anything about it on any other website than here. I suppose I'll try the game out sometime, but I can't say its going to be soon.