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What's your take on this? As in plot, characters....whatnot?
To get things rolling, I read something basically calling James a selfish, cruel man for killing Mary. I disagree, because if he's as bad as this guy said, why would he have even bothered? And it says, to bolster this fact, that Maria was an "ideal" creation....pretty, slutty, a stripper...my rebuttal is that he spurns Maria at pretty much every turn...so he, in my mind, truly did/does love Mary. Any other opinions?
Yes he loved Mary, he loved her enough to kill her and end her suffering. But then, he did kill her for selfish reasons, because he was so sick and disgusted by what she'd become he had to end her life.
If he'd really, truly loved Mary and killed her for totally unselfish reasons, then the dark side of Silent Hill would never have called him. It's because his soul is dark and tarnished that he's pulled into the evil world, as a pose to Laura who's soul is clean and so she sees no evil monsters, just a spooky, misty old town.
James is not evil, but he is selfish in some ways, and the way that dark Silent Hill drew him in is proof of the darkness in his soul.
He both did and didn't spurn Maria though, think about the scene where she's in the cell, and James' reaction to her, and then what happens after you find her dead in there afterwards.
James is not evil, and he did love Mary, but he's no saint either.
Oh, agreed. I won't say that he was a complete saint in this. And he did create Maria, I'll admit, and did get a little cuddly at points. But it always seems to end with "You're not Mary!"
Now what about Laura? *IS* she real? Or is she a facet of Mary as this guy seems to think? Personally, I disagree with him. It's just a little too awkward. And I think the "Mary's been dead for three years" thing is a bit more metaphorical at that point. She was afflicted with a life threatening illness, ergo, she was as good as "dead." Actually, I'll post a link to this guy's plot analysis in a sec...
HERE!
First off, I love that game. It's disturbing; maybe even more so than the first game---in my opinion, at least.
On the whole "Mary" thing....I think it depends on which ending you get, to see if he really did love her. I haven't gotten all the endings, but in In Water (SPOILER)I think he did love her; but I see it as more of an obsessive, unhealthy kind of love. And in the Maria one, (SPOILER) It doesn't seem like he loved her at all. He comes off quite hateful. Plus, he leaves with Maria, choosing her
Laura. Hrmm. Who knows? I'd like to think she was dead myself, but I can't think of anything at the moment to prove this. She could be "innocent", I guess, but some of the things she says, and the events...don't make sense.
I've read that analysis before. :p Personally, I don't think he's right. He's looking way too much nito the sex thing, if I remember correctly. There's another plot analysis that's much better, and seems more accurate. But with Silent Hill, it's kind of hard to know.
:D
Yeah, like with the Nurses....yeah they're wearing skimpy outfits...but if it was all about the sex...why not a dirty maid, or whatever....the nurses are the ones that failed to help Mary...or in effect, took her from him. Hence why they're enemies, IMO.
But I think Laura is as she said she was. A friend of Mary's. She was drawn to Silent Hill to make James face the ugly truth of what he did. I mean, in it's essence, Silent Hill is a sort of Purgatory...divided between an absolute light, and an absolute darkness. Is it not concievable that the darkness isn't the only part that attracts people?
Oh Laura's real alright, wasn't it stated in the game that she was in the hospital at the same time as Mary? Maybe she came back to Silent Hill, to reminisce or something, but found nothing except for James and Eddie.
The thing you have to remember is this, it's that the Silent Hill that James, and Eddie and so on enter is totally different from the REAL Silent Hill, they're in another dimension totally. Light Silent Hill is not the REAL Silent Hill, Samael in SH1 sorted that out.
For all we know, Laura could be walking around a Silent Hill that's totally normal and populated by people, so it's not so weird that she's involved in what happens.
Notice she never appears in Dark Silent Hill?
Oh, absolutely.
One has to ask, though....is Dark Silent Hill the same for everyone...? I mean when the DoorMan was raping Angela...she was calling it Daddy...so either she has some screwed up family, or....(And seeing as her father is *DEAD*...) Here's my thoughts.
There's James' Silent Hill, filled with demons and whatnot.
Eddie's Silent Hill, which is full of people for him to kill.
And then there's Angela's Silent Hill...this is a toughie...but I'm thinking it's a place where she's all alone. Save for James (cuz he's real...) and the DoorMan (Chance to atone? Reliving the incident? This is a little blurry...)
And of course there's Laura's Silent Hill, which seems to be as close to normal as possible.
Actually, if you remember at the end of the game, in the hotel, she walks up the stairs when they're on fire, and says to James something about how he can see the flames, and how they were always on fire for her.
Oh there are, actually, a lot of things that bolster my theory. I mean look at the fact that James saw NO people, save real people, and his Maria. Yet Eddie found no shortage of people to kill.
But what about the dead guy in the chair that James also saw? Would he have been a real person, also drawn into Silent Hill, yet met an end before James could know him?
That could be true. Or it could've also been one of Eddie's "victims" too...
I think that guy is supposed to be another imagry conjured up by James' subcontious, like Mary's dress in the other room. If you look close, you can see that the dead guy is wearing the exact same clothes as James.
REALLY?! I'm gonna have to play again and see....now that I've been spoiled by the steel pipe and all...:(
I also found Angela's final staircase to be somewhat symbolic....kind of an indecision of heaven or hell...I mean the stairs, IMO represent heaven-bound, whereas the flames, hell (Even James mentions this symbolism: "It's hot as hell in here...")
I think either:
1.) She's a sinner thinks she's done right (Unlikely...) or...
2.) A righteous person thinking she's done wrong.
I think she was more drawn to Silent Hill because of her own guilt rather than her sin. I mean, it's pretty safe to say that even if she *DID* kill her Dad (remember, it never implicitly says so) it was most likely in self-defence. But then again, Samael prolly isn't choosy on the souls he recieves, either, so....
Well, if you think about the whole staircase scene, Angela ascends the stairs, she's leaving her personal hell and finally escaping, but James has to return through the door from whence he came, returning to his hell. He can't escape like she can.
I think that part of James' hell means that he can partially see what the others do, he at least sees what is his version of another persons, like in the doorman-angela scene, to Angela the doorman appears to be her father, but to James it's just another monster like the demon's of his subconcious.
To each, their own hell.
James sees them as horrific monsters, because he abhors ugliness, just in the reason he killed Mary because he was disgusted by how ugly she had become, so all that faced him was ugliness.
Eddie was bitter, hateful and wanted to kill people, so people is what he saw.
And Angela, well she was all alone, she saw nothing save James and "her father".
As each follow up their hell, and as James destroyed more than was ugly and Eddie killed more "people", they became more and more pulled in by Silent Hill.
And it's fairly obvious that Angela THINKS she's a bad person, as a lot of rape and child abuse victims think that they're in the wrong when they're not.
But, I think, the most interesting theory is that Silent Hill provides choices, that there are two deitys fighting for control, Samael for evil and Metatron for good. That the switch between light and dark Silent Hill is when one of these deity's gain control.
Sinners are called to Silent Hill and given a choice, between life and death, being saved or total damnation, this is shown by the different endings. Maria/Rebirth being where James falls for Samael and is damned, where he falls for the false Mary and is force to relive his crime and Rebirth where he decides to follow Samael and is again damned. In Water/Leave is where James is forgiven and allowed to move on by Metatron, through death In Water and through a new life with Laura in Leave.
Personally, I'm a little dubious about that one, since Metatron was only hinted at in SH1, and there is little evidence of Samael in SH2, bar the mark of Samael on the floor in the hotel.
Also, random note for SH4 players, (SPOILER)You'll remember the reference to Walter Sullivan in the newspaper article in the trash, and from playing SH4 you'll know about his links to Dahlia and the Wish House, but look in his "lair" in SH4, and you'll see the Great Knife in the background. The Great Knife being Pyramid Head's weapon, perhaps Walter was involved in SH2 in some way, as the Holy Assumption he performed and the 21 sacraments is too related to the summoning of Samael.
Phew, too much.
Wow...well put.
(SPOILER)And yeah, SH2 is fairly strongly tied into SH4....Frank Sunderland is the building Super...Walter Sullivan is the main enemy. And yeah, Wish House is made mention of in SH3, as is Joseph Schreiber, no?
Umn, you only warned about SH2 spoilers in the title, maybe you should mark the SH3/4 ones?
Ooops...sorry. Got caught up in the moment.
What to discuss now....?
Speaking of 2 and 4 connections.
In the bar in 2, theres graffiti on the wall that says "There was a HOLE here, but now it's gone"
Hole? As in Henry's hole?
I thought that too...
The hole is what the owner of Neely's bar saw, it was his personal hell.
Which makes me think, maybe when Samael was summoned to Silent Hill, even partially, maybe all the inhabitants were drawn into Dark Silent Hill and all the inhabitants of the town no longer exist, so maybe what I said earlier about Laura seeing a perfectly normal town is wrong.
The town does exist in another dimension, but all the inhabitants were pulled in and no longer exist.
While James does have the ability to sort of see into other people's hells, he couldn't see the hole that the owner of Neely's bar did, but he certainly sees plenty of his own. Think about the physics defying hole in the prison? The one in the floor that lands you further up, or when James jumps into his own grave.
Also, remember the grave stones? There were four of them, James Sunderland, Eddie's, Angela's and Walter Sullivan.
There is a link to Henry's holes, but they're different, since Henry's holes are a link from him to another dimension but then...
(SPOILER)You can assume that the first time Henry visit's each world is the "Light world", really, at least compared to the second time he visits and everything just turns to heck and can be considered the Dark World. I think that when Henry enters a hole, Walter sends him to the dimension that each of the four new sacraments enters, like Cynthia entered the subway as normal, but in doing so entered Walter's domain instead of the real subway station. Henry is there to witness Walter's deeds and Walter's pain, hence why he's referred to as the "Wisdom" sacrament, the final sacrament to bind them all after viewing the death and undeath of all the others.
And about Silent Hill 3 and James..
(SPOILER)Remeber that Detective guy? I forget his name, but he said he was working on lots of cases about Silent Hill, but there was one, a missing person's case he could never solve. James, don't you think?
But yeah, Silent Hill calls upon all the past games and binds them together, possibly providing an answer to a few questions.
This is how I interpret it: James killed Mary, but he was seized with guilt on such a great level, that his mind told him she died three years ago, while in reality, he actually killed her just before the opening of the game. (Explaining why he's staring at himself in the mirror the way he is, drawing his hand down his face.) James fled Silent Hill after killing Mary. (I'm pretty sure Laura and Mary were being taken care of at Brookhaven Hospital.) He then recieved a letter from Mary through Rachel. Mary asked Rachel to send the letter to James after her death. Having been caught up with his delusion, he feels the need to go back to Silent Hill since he thinks she died three years ago. At this point, James' mind is completely screwed up and ridden with guilt that his reality is turned into something completely different, not to mention his story. When James arrives at the hotel, he meets up with Laura. There's mention of her getting a birthday card from Mary for her 8th birthday. James asks Laura how long ago it was when she turned that age, and she responds to James by telling him it was only a few days before. This is where the story starts to come together. Some people think Laura's also dead, or also part of Silent Hill, but that's not the case at all. She is indeed a real, living person. It is safe to assume that during the Leave ending, James adopts Laura, as it was one of Mary's wishes to do so.
But anyway...is James selfish? To an extent, he is, but there is still no doubt he loved Mary, no matter what he said.
As for Walter Sullivan...as James, you read the article found in the trash chute. The article speaks of Walter saying something along the lines of, "The red devil made me do it, but it wasn't me!" The red devil is popularly claimed to be Pyramid Head. Well, it just so happens the "red devil" was Walter's first victim. 01/21. He is the ghost you see coming out of the wall in Room 302, Jimmy Stone. Stone was formerly a Preist of Valtiel. Preists of Valtiel would wear red, triangular shaped hoods that covered their entire heads. So, is the red devil Pyramid Head? Pyramid Head and Jimmy Stone are not one in the same, but there was more than one Priest of Valtiel. There is also more than one Pyramid Head. So basically, you can chock it up to these executioners as being Preists of Valtiel, since they wear the same cermonial garb.
And of course, there's Valtiel himself. He's most referred to as God's helper. He's similar to the Pyramid Heads, but most likely the former head honcho of the religious sect that was named after him, now only seen in the Alternate Silent Hill.
In game the pyramid heads are referred to the executioners of the prison in the civil war, where prisoners were "skewered" by executioners wearing triangular hoods, stained red with the blood of their victims.
How does that relate to the priests of valtiel? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious.
But mostly, they're there to punish James for his misdeeds, or so is widely believed anyway.
They wear the same hood and clothing. It's a possibility that The Preists of Valtiel served as executioners as well.
So the assumption is that the cult of valtiel has persisted since civil war times, either that or the cult adopted the garb of the executioners because of some kind of evil significance.
Sorry to cut into the discussion, but I haven't played Silent Hill 2 —does anyone have a picture of Pyramid Head? I want to see him. I heard he was scary, but I would find it hard to be intimidated by a guy with a pyramid for a head.
Yup. That's him. Add to it the fact that he's invincible....heh.
Well, they're invincible against James, but against themselves...
Yes, you know what I'm talking about.
Oh, and the big pyramid? Made of metal, you hear it when you shoot at them, the clunk of bullets bouncing off it.
(SPOILER)I was thinking today about the "There was a hole here..." thing. Wasn't one of Walter's victims a bartender? It's not too much of a stretch to assume that the bartender was the Bar Neely's bartender...
The more I think about it, the more I think that Silent Hill 4's plot is fairly (Not totally, but largely) pre-planned. I mean it makes no small effort to draw special attention to Walter Sullivan...especially by means of his "suicide."
I wouldn't doubt it for a second.
Good. Then I'm not crazy. Or at least I'm not the only one that's crazy...
(SPOILER)
RED DIARY - AUGUST 7
No. 1...Ten heart...
No. 2...Ten...
No. 3...Ten hearts...
No. 4...Ten hearts Steve Garl...
No. 5...Ten...
No. 6...Ten heart...
No. 7...Ten hearts Billy Locane
No. 8...Ten hearts Miriam Locane
No. 9...Ten hearts
No. 10...Ten...
No. 11...Assumption Walter Sullivan
No. 12...Void...
No. 13...Darkness
No. 14...Gloom...
No. 15...Despair of Joseph Schreiber
No. 16...Temptation Cynthia Velasquez
No. 17...Source Jasper Gein
No. 18...Watchfulness Andrew DeSalvo
No. 19...Chaos Richard Braintree
No. 20...Mother Eileen Galvin
No. 21...Wisdom Henry Townshend
August 7
There are plenty of spaces in there that could be the bartender, but, I'm assuming this :
Walter Sullivan was a living serial killer before his holy assumption, obviously, so I don't think the bartender was any of Sacrament 1-10, personally I think he may be void. Considering how void is like a hole, and the bartender saw a hole when he was in dark Silent Hill.
At least, that could work anyway, since the 21 Sacraments are for the Descent of the Holy Mother, or the Descent of the Devil, which links back to Dahlia using Alyssa as the mother of Samael and that the Wish House cult believed in summoning the Holy Mother. So, I certainly think that Silent Hill 2 would most likely be related. Maybe even the summoning of people to Silent Hill by and for their sins could be some way that Walter was trying to find more people to fit his 21 Sacraments? Or perhaps, we could assume that the true ending of Silent Hill 2 is the Rebirth ending, and that James' summoning allows Walter to move on and find new people for his sacrament list? Though, I admit that the last one is rather a leap...
EDIT : I just found this looking in another document in SH4, here's the important excerpt :
""Descent of the Holy Mother
--The 21 Sacraments"
The First Sign
And God said,
At the time of fullness, cleanse the world with my rage.
Gather forth the White Oil, the Black Cup and the Blood of the Ten
Sinners.
Prepare for the Ritual of the Holy Assumption.
The Second Sign
And God said,
Offer the Blood of the Ten Sinners and the White Oil.
Be then released from the bonds of the flesh, and gain the Power of
Heaven.
From the Darkness and Void, bring forth Gloom,
and gird thyself with Despair for the Giver of Wisdom."
And you can match this with the Rebirth ending from SH2, where you require the White Chism (white oil) and Obsidian Goblet (blood of ten sinners?), and the two books of Lost Memory and Crimson Ceremony.
Since pre-Silent Hill 2, Walter has already killed the "ten sinners" or the "ten hearts" as they are referred to in the list of Sacraments, and then it was followed by his own Holy Assumption and "suicide". Two years after that, another body was found, 12/21 - Void. Now, if we think that when James reaches Silent Hill, it's two years after Walter has commited the Holy Assumption of himself and he's already killed 12/21 the bartender of Neely's bar, but Walter is trapped in Silent Hill, then James could be the one who frees him.
Or in fact, an even bigger stretch, could James be 13/21? The sacrament of Darkness? In three out of four endings, we see no evidence of James leaving Silent Hill, he could have stayed, died and become the 13th sacrament.
But yes, too much of a stretch, and again, too much thinking into things >_<
(SPOILER)No, I recall a site where all save one of Walter's victims were listed, and that one of them was a bartender...I found this site humming around the SH4 forum in Gamefaqs.
Gee, it would be nice to notice the rest of us when you write spoilers from SH4. :/
That's why we MARK them as spoilers.
It's fairly obvious that there are going to be SH2 spoilers, so we don't bother to mark them, anything that isn't SH2 is marked.
And Mr. Guess :
(SPOILER)I do think that the bartender may be one of his victims, heck I even suggested one that he could be, so I do follow your theory, but I'd love to see the site with the list of the victims so I could see if I'm right or not, but I'm just going on what it says in the memos in the game for now, so I assume he's 12/21, or maybe 13/21
Well, how am I supposed to know that? Might as well be spoilers from SH3, SH1 or Britney's Dance Beat for all I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindy
When it comes down to what you've been discussing, I think you've pretty much summed up SH2. And all those connections between SH2 and SH4 are really interesting. I've nearly finished SH4, so I'm quite into the story. Haven't seen the ending yet though. Oh and Pyramid Head was probably put in to represent James himself. Y'know, since he executed his wife. Hmm. And Pyramid head executed Maria. Looks like it happened again, only with pyramid head representing James and Maria representing Mary.
And the ghosts in SH4 are far more annoying than Pyramid Head. :mad2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindy
Or fer sure. I'll try and find it here. And sorry Lev...
Don't worry about it.
I think I found where I got the list of victims from. Try www.translatedmemories.com
I will confess, it didn't work for me when I checked, but maybe it's just me...
Be forewarned. SH4 Spoilers lurk within!
It's awkward, because there are so many things that Pyramid head COULD be, that I don't think we'll ever know which one is right.
It could be, as has been said, a representation of James himself, or a representation of his guilt and his wish to be punished. It could be a projection of Samael and/or (SPOILER)Walter Sullivan, or could be the Priest of Valtiel that Seifer suggested.
BUT, I'd like to point out this :
Pyramid Head doesn't just punish and try to execute James, think about the first scene where you see him, he's 'raping' those marionettes in the apartment room, and wherever you go he kills everything in his path, not just tries to kill James.
NOW, that could mean even more evidence that he's a representation of James, if you think about it, because James' sin was his abhorrence of ugliness, and since all the enemies are considered ugly then Pyramid Head could be doing what James would do, perhaps.
On a slightly off topic thing, I have to ask...
Spear Pyramid Head vs Great Knife Pyramid Head?
Tough Call. The Great Knife is stronger...an overhead slash killing pretty much anything, but the spear is faster.
However, seeing as I beat TWO spear wielding with the Great Knife, I'll go with the Great Knife.
On that note, my main concern with Pyramid Head being James is that when James killed Mary, it was more merciful in my eyes. Pyramid Head is ruthless, merciless....I truly believe he's more like a manifestation of James' CONSCIENCE. Note at the end. "I was weak. I needed someone to punish me." He then proceeded to whup two of the creatures he couldn't even dent even moments before. My selief is that at that point, he finally forgave himself...even to a small degree.
"I was weak. I needed someone to punish me."
Would that be why the Pyramid heads sort of...execute themselves after you've defeated them? Or is it something to do with Samael, and Metatron(if that isn't the right name, sorry. I'm rusty)?
:D
Hmmm...I read a theory like that. In it, Pyramid Head is a creature of Samael, and as such is bound to punish only the sinners (Reason why Laura never got harmed). But when James Redeemed himself, and faced his sins, the Pyramid Heads were vulnerable, and ultimately committed suicide, as James began to shift to Metatron's protection. Reader's Digest Version.
The siren.
Remember the siren? It plays after you beat the pyramid heads, it plays when pyramid head is called away from fighting James in the apartments, it plays when the world shifts from dark to light world in Silent Hill after Harry defeats a boss, it plays (SPOILER)whenever Henry enters a world for the first time in SH4
The siren heralds the calling away of evil, when it's job is done in, at least, the first two Silent Hill games.
Pyramid Head's job is done, they're called away, in the case of the last confrontation, through their suicide.
I was thinking (Great thing about my job. Loooot's of time to think. Good to see I out it to good use, no?)
I think it's somewhat innaccurate to say that Silent Hill...the Silent Hill James is in is completely evil. I mean even in the darkest of places, there is some light. Even if it's vague splinters, but there is light. I think that represents the duality of James' choice. A also think it reflects the motivation for what summoned the sinner there in the first place.
You only see Eddie in the dark. Thus his is his sin. The darkness of his soul.
Angela is always seen either in the mist, or light (Remember, even in the dark places, where she is is usually pretty well lit. Unless I'm mistaken, that is.) Thusly, her motivation is moreover her guilt, rather than her sin (Provided she really did kill her father, rather than, say her mother killing him to protect her daughter...)
James pops between the Mist and Darkness. Thus his motivation is a combination of the two. Both his sin, and his own guilt.
Finally, I think Silent Hill and Pyramid Head both represent James' masochistic nature. This is very well summed up by James "I needed someone to punish me..." quote. But why does he defend himself? Why does he conjure up weapons? The reason is twofold.
1.) James is, for the most part, not suicidal. And note. A way to force the In Water ending is to suffer a great deal of damage, and maintain low health.
2.) James probably didn't even realize he was inventing these things. Thus he responded as one would expect being faced with monstrosities trying to kill you.
You're absolutely right that he didn't realize it. James suffers from delusional disorder...and probably a bit of schizophrenia too. Although, you have to take into consideration that he was in Silent Hill...and that town isn't normal to anyone. The monsters are real, but they appear in specific forms for James, with the exception of Pyramid Head. His appearance is most likely universal despite the fact he's only exclusive to SH2.
More than one person can see the monsters, they just appear differently. In Silent Hill 3, Vincent asks Heather, "They look like monsters to you?" It kind of makes you wonder just what everyone else sees. Though, Vincent does follow it up with "It's just a joke." So more than likely, he sees things similar to what Heather sees. He isn't particularly fond of "paradise" by the end of the game.
And finally, we can't forget: The origin of the monsters and Alternate Silent Hill in the first SH are Alessa. Samael resides in Alessa. So what it comes down to is that Samael is responsible for all the bad crap that appears in the town.
Now let's back up to what James sees, once again. Samael decides to deliver Silent Hill to James from his delusion and guilt, which is exactly what he gets. It's the same for all the other characters in Silent Hill 2. The creatures appear in forms Samael decides to tease them with. The only exception is Laura and Maria, since Laura simply doesn't see anything harmful, and Maria is part of James' delusion.
Probably a tired theory, but it's probable.
But the important thing is that you can't really compare the monsters and the Silent Hill of the first game to any other.
Why not? (SPOILER)Because it never actually happened in the real world, in SH1, Harry was in a car crash, throughout the whole game he's laying by the side of the road dying. His search for his daughter occured in a world of Alessa's creation, all that he saw and killed was just a false reality into which he'd been transported by Dahlia. The game never actually ended (except, I think, in the bad ending). You can see this happening by two important things, remember the start of the game? Harry ends up getting killed in an alleyway by a monster and awakes in that Cafe. What happened to him? Dahlia realised she'd put him in a dangerous place and moved him to a safe starting point. You see, every time you finish the game, it never goes Dahlia's way, so she just resets the game, like replaying a game of chess from stalemate. Hence why Harry starts off in the cafe after a Brand New Fear game instead of the alleyway. So really, the world of Silent Hill was more of a battle between Dahlia and Alessa for control of the world, with Harry as just a pawn, light Silent Hill as Dahlia's "safe place" for Harry,and dark silent hill as Alessa's view of the world. So the Silent Hill of the future games isn't the one from the first, but it is influenced by what happened to cause the story of Silent Hill 1.
silent hill is very complex... makes my brain hurt...
(SPOILER)I was wrong. A bartender IS a victim, but he's from Ashfield Bar...