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really a great war hangs above us, christains vs moslims.. really scary
theo van gogh who was a director of a film about the abuse of moslim females, was shot 3 november by a extreem moslim. first shot then stabbed really brute way to kill somebody.. I thought that holland was save...quess not :eek:
Read it on hte newspaper. I really can't comment much on it, other than the fact it's preety sad such thing occured.
There is no war of Christians vs. Muslisms. There's a war of .001% of Muslims vs .001% of everyone else. Murder happens every day, and most of the murders in the world are committed by non-Muslims, I would hazard to guess.
well not in holland , that was almost the savest place in the world, such things happen.
YOU MEAN PEOPLE DON'T RIOT THE STREETS BECAUSE THEY ARE HIGH ON MARIHUANA AND GAY COUPLES DON'T ATTEMPT TO FORCE GAY MARRIAGE ON PEOPLE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity
Who?
I quess we are a free land indeed. but not all the stories are true. only in the big cities like amsterdam or roterdam. but whats wrong about gays?
Wow...I don't know much about Holland, but with that last sentence, it can't be anything like the USA. Probably nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity
Anyway Unne said it right. That "war between Christians and Muslims" is non-exsistent, and whoever say thats whats going on is full of hagus.
No, well, I was being sarcastic, I think Holland is probably the most advanced country in terms of laws. I'm for legalization of weed and gay marriage :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Trinity
Is abortion legal too? The social-democrat goverment in Spain is legalizing both gay marriage and abortion. Now they should happily legalize weed and we would be another nation corrupted by crazy liberals (although personally I have my reserves with the whole abortion thing).
well. abortion is legal but ofcourse you first have to follow some rules before you can do this. but for example if I got pregnant now, I can ask my parents , if they agree , can go to a dokter and do an abortion . it is so weird. im 17 years old.
we are a free countrey and some people misuse this power , now we must chose weither freedom of opinion is right for everybody.
what do you think about that?
Yeah, so you can stick a joint up some guy's arse. :DQuote:
I'm for legalization of weed and gay marriage
Anyway, Holland is very free with nearly everything allowed (rules are illegal in Holland!), and that's cool, for the Dutch. I think countries' rule system adjusts itself to the population... when you're a country filled with Muslims, the law tends to be strict, and when you're talking about a European country, the law tends to be lenient.
I'd rather do that with a broomstick.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
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we are a free countrey and some people misuse this power , now we must chose weither freedom of opinion is right for everybody.
what do you think about that?
I think the misuse of freedom should be rearranged, but never should be freedom banned because the abuse of a few, unless such abuse becomes a great menace for the rest (for example, free trade :D).
I'd rather do it with a rusty shovel, but it has to do with mary-wanna.Quote:
I'd rather do that with a broomstick.
OwwQuote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
news flash:
there were 2 fires last night in holland, because of the rasisme that has begon against ALL moslims in hollands which ofcourse is not fair. a school was burned down and there was a text writen on it: R.I.P THEO and then a white power symbole. HOlland is about to become crazy, the whole world is... is this how we will end in a third world war :eek:
How we will end it or begin it? The whole world has been crazy, it's a shame it's spread to somewhere peaceful, but stuff like this happens. We have extremists on every side, and so long as the rest of us try and remain sane and not blow things out of proportion, we should be fine. I dont see how this could start a world war, considering it's not a conflict between nations, but between idealists within the nations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity
This reminds me to what happened in El Ejido (in Spain) back in 1998. An arab inmigrant killed a woman in the town of El Ejido (Andalucia...or AL ANDALUS OMG!!! :rolleyes), and the nice townfolk decided that, since such thing had happened, it would be a great idea to burn down the houses inhabited by arabs. About this, the leftist humour magazine El Jueves did a cover with a bunch of idiots beating an arab saying "Hey, we are doing it in self defense".
Anyway, it's preety sad, but when people are ignorant they tend to do really shameful things. But I really doubt WWIII will have anything to do with a small bunch of racists or religious fanatics. Maybe with a large group of racists and religious fanatics.
Yes, I am also from Holland and it is not very fun at the moment. :cry:. A neighbourhood in The Hague is closed down because off that there maybe terrorist in a building. 3 agents are said to be down. Also Special Forces, Marines, ambulances etc are at the scene. They are expecting the worst. A sort of Madrid-scene, were the police attacked a building and the building was blown.
Canada has been known not to be strict on anything... I think we should start... BUSH might bring the war to us sooner than later.
O__oQuote:
Originally Posted by SephirothNL
There are muslim terrorists in Holland?
Anyway, in the Madrid thing there were no dead agents though, just the terrorists blowing themselves up. I have a friend in that neighbourhood and saw the building explode. Must have been freaky.
I've heard from several sources that many Western people aren't able to understand the middle-eastern thought and therefore cannot plan effective strategies for defending against or attacking them.
Speaking as a Westerner whose experience and training has been in Far Eastern thought, could perhaps somebody enlighten me?
does it revolve around the greater level of faith these people seem to have in their religion? Does it have to do with the male superiority thing that also seems pervasive of their cultures? Does it have to do with them being out in the sun too long? or perhaps they're desperately in need of a drink since Allah says alcohol is bad?
who knows. a good shot of fine Irish whiskey could do them a world of good. plus it's tasty.
seriously, though. any input?
Yes, we have terrorist in Holland. Every ended well, with only one of the two terrorist was hurt. But the habitants of the houses in that area are still not allowed to return to their houses. Meanwhile it has been 24 hours ago that the neighbourhood was surrounded and people had to leave their houses. Although it now is "save" police still expects bombs in the buildings. Also a little riot was started by football-supporters at the scene with just normal muslims. And afcourse like trinity said their were fires in two muslimsschools. And this is after a week that Theo van Gogh was murdered. The Netherlands are in crisis. That is my our prime-minister and his ministers are holding a debat today. Let's hope today everything stays quiet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus
The kids must have been so happy!Quote:
a school was burned down
I might be wrong on this but I think it's that Far Eastern people are willing to stop at nothing to win. They don't set boundries for themselves while the American Army tries to fight with a code of ethics.Quote:
Speaking as a Westerner whose experience and training has been in Far Eastern thought, could perhaps somebody enlighten me?
@TheAbominatrix: I know , that wont start a world war, but look at the world right now, we are on the eghe of distruction. something is going to happen , I think is will be Bin Laden, he will do something , and of course bush that dog wants war. You know this is the beginning... but our children will they be save... it sounds dramatic but I just show how scary this is , and how quick a war can start.
Please dont generalize everyone who lives over there with terrorists. It's the terrorists who use those tactics, not everyone. And yes, they are willing to stop at nothing, that's how deeply they believe in their cause, right or wrong. I wont say anything further than that, it's not the thread for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
And Trinity, I know things are scary. Wars do start quickly, especially with war-hungry nations lurking about, but the best we can do it keep a bright outlook. Dont let this destroy your sense of security. These things can happen, and they will, but life has to go on. Hopefully things will calm down again, and Holland can live in peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theundeadhero
Think you confused what I asked. Far East = the Orient. Also, the Abominatrix is right, it's the terrorists who are willing to commit anything to accomplish their goals.
what I'm asking about, though, is the Middle Eastern mindset, and in what ways it differs from Western. Or even Oriental thought.
I know a guy who has entirely missed the point of tracking down the terrorists. He tells a joke of an Islamic person harrassing a Native American with an American Cowboy sitting nearby. The Islamic person says to the Native American something along the lines of, "Your people were once many, and now are few. My people were few and now are many. Why do you think that is?" to which the Cowboy pipes in, "It's because they haven't let us play 'Cowboys and Muslims' yet."
I hear such things and worry that the average distracted layman has missed the point of exactly who and what is attacking the US.
If such thinking becomes too pervasive, such a war as is being discussed could take place.
However, I would point out that this war has happened before, and the Christians lost. They were called the Great Crusades.
If you ask me about my exprience with arabs, I can tell you they don't seem too much like Evil Terrorists That Want To Destroy Our Freedom. In fact, in company of some arabs I even felt a strange thing called philanthropy. And this people I refer to are probably some of the most noble I have ever came across, people I really felt knew much more about how to live than anyone in the West.
However, I am not any expert in culture, I just have travelled quite a lot, enough to develop a radical, critical view on etnocentric thinking. Or to explain it clearly, in my eyes, whoever claims we are the superior culture, the expression of progress, is a complete ignorant, an idiot who should get out of his country and see the real world, not the world according to CNN. And I know I am right, unless my memory of the oasis in south Tunisia is but a dream, something I doubt.
However, I do know no rational person would use empirical experience to try to create a universal law, and I am conscious the people I met may be far away from the general thing. Yet, I believe Bin Laden and Atta are far away from the general rule, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity
@ the abominatrix: I know , but we are not used to it, so when things like this happen. we have to pay for thing we dont want to happen, so the gouverment isnt thinking strait. well Im not depressed or disappointed in the way I live now, but things are getting darker by the minute.
ps : why dont the world leader spare many lives by having a 1 vs 1 battle, no guns , no bombs just swords or something a battle between skills not power. that would be a little bit more fair than the way the fight each other now right?
The official reason would be that they're the leaders of our countries, and we need them for their leadership skills. If wars were solved like this, we'd probably elect people for strength rather than smarts, I'd suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity
The more realistic one in my opinion is that they're cowards. How much easier is it to send a man to die for you than to have to risk your own life?
so we dont need them for their leadership skill cause they dont lead.. ( atleast not very well)
They do lead, and they do a lot of important things. Countries wouldnt run without systems of government, most things wouldnt run without leaders taking care of them. Whether they do it well or not, they're there, and we have to deal with it.
Im from holland and we live in a democraty, that means there is one queen, but she has nothing to say, and there is a parlement, who are all split up in a party with diffrent names. the elextions show us which 3 of all the groups will lead the countrey ( the first chamber) and the ones who are left from the second chamber. so it is in fact the people who are chosing there rights.. but there is one prim minister balkendende ( iiiew, i hate him) who takes the wrong dissisioins. ( like bush) so he lead- and he is wrong so he can go.
And? Leaders are still important. I live in a democracy as well, and leaders are still needed to get things done. I agree we could do without Bush as a leader, but we still need a leader. I cant really understand the rest of what you said, sorry.
Was he a relative of Vincent?
okay leaders are needed, but they have to listen the people.. not just think whats good for there own. and come on leaders are so easily so corrupt. in holland its diffrent...we cont chambers.. with many party's ( maybe its parties i dont know , but not parties like a fest) there a group of people who where chosen by the us..
and you have right and left..partys..and in between offcourse.. example:
a party called D66= left which means their goal is to help all people rich and poor , they thing we must help eachother and they as a gouverment much help the people with hospital care ( or something)
a right party VVD says= no we have to be a free land , the people can take care of themselves. no interfearing by gouverment.
@MATTY PIE: balkenende = our prim minister :D ( not a good one)
Who? I was talking about Theo Van Gogh...Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity
ooh he= really was a man with a mouth.. he insulted people many people and called the islam... a bunch of dutch= geiten neuker translated means goaters.. so it wasnt really smart of him, but he had a oppinion. and we are the land of free oppinions ( until now i quess) but also towards christains he was not nice.. but it is never a reason to kill someone like this ( shot and stabbed twice)
I'm from Antwerp, Belgium and the aftermath of Van Gogh's murder is noticeable here. As you might or might not know, Antwerp has a large number of immigrants, about 75 % of which are Arabs and/or Muslims (the other 25 % probably being the Dutch :p ). In my school, the Muslim kids are running around showing how great it is Van Gogh was killed, while the right-wing kids are doing the opposite thing. Violence is rampant. The parking lot of my school has become the scene for weekly riots between Arabs and commies on the left side, and neo-fascists on the right. There doesn't seem to be a middle lane for the youths in Belgium. Only last week, two Jews were killed in the streets, seperate cases. I don't like it one bit.
As you also might or might not know, Vlaams Blok, the Belgian extreme right-wing party, gets about 30 % of the votes; that's an awful lot for a country where six parties are considered to be big.
Theo Van Gogh was a provocative man, indeed. He said harsh things about Muslims that were a bit distasteful, but he never meant them any harm. Heck, the major part of the cast for 'Submission' (the film that got him killed) was Arab. But what Van Gogh tried to provoke, was discussion, not action. I believe he was a very peaceful man.
I think both Belgium and Holland are in an uncomfortable situation right now, what with extreme right-wing parties being so popular in both countries, and the murder on individuals like Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh in Holland.
lol @ people using the term "middle eastern" and "Muslim" interchangeably.
As for Van Gogh, what happened to him was wrong. However, all he ever tried to do was provoke conflict. And then he begged for his life before he died.
Another thing. Not all Arabs are Muslim!!! It's like saying all white people are catholic.
I'm European and Muslim for proof.
Yes, great great grand nephew, or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty Pie!
I also live in Holland, and I've noticed no discrimination against muslims since the murder of Van Gogh. On the contrary, Balkenende refused to send his condolences to the family of the victim, as he was busy visiting a mosque and a burned down islamic school. His government proposed toughening up the laws against blasphemy, so that no-one else could say "my god is a pig, I call him allah" (famous Van Gogh quote) any more. If you ask me, those murdering jihad psychos have won.
As for Theo, I always was a great fan of his weekly columns in the "metro". I also agree with his opinions about these wive-beating homophobic antisemitic zealots who are endangering everything Europe has achieved in centuries of revolutions, reforms and wars. By the way, he just called religious fanatics geitenneukers, not everyone who happens to be muslim.
Actually taking steps to curb blatant racism like that was a responsible action. People are not born hating others. If Dutch Muslims were raised in an environment where they constantly face comments which make them feel like crap, how do you think they would view people who are not just like them? Alienation radicalizes people, whether that be on a religious or secular level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis the Warlock
Eliminating causes of hatred in a country may seem like "giving in" to a few radicial elements in a certain faction, but in the long run it will be seen as using reason and logic.