i dont think that is right (R=U spoilers)

Yeah, many people think that rino=ultimecia but i dont realy think that, because they say that when you fight against ultimecia she calls the most *powerful* gf of all she says that she will call your worst nightmare and the name of that gf is Gryphus, yeah the same as the name of the ring that squall had.....well now you tell me......if Rinoa was mad because hers knight died and she remembered that squall had this ring......why will she want to kill squall.

I think that maybe rinoa and ultimecia have the same powers that had gone from generation to generation so come on and talk about this.

I too don't believe the the R=U teory, but the most believers reason it with memory loss because of the GF. Oh, and the GF was called Griever, not Gryphus.

PS:Next time you should ad a spoiler warning into threads like this.

Squall's ring is not called "Griever". Squall's ring does not have a name. It is a piece of metal with a picture on it. The LION carved on Squall's ring, necklace an gunblade is called Griever. That is all.[q=Squall088]I think that maybe rinoa and ultimecia have the same powers that had gone from generation to generation so come on and talk about this.[/q]Yep, that's what I believe too. In fact, Rinoa suggests that this is exactly what is going to happen, if you talk to her on board the Ragnarok during disc four.[q=GLR]PS:Next time you should ad a spoiler warning into threads like this.[/q]Yes. *Fixes*

K, couple of points.
First off im new so dont just shrug off my knowledge.
neway:
1. Rinoa (can fight)/(fights) with you in the final battle againts ultemicia.
2. Rinoa only has the same powers because its given to her from Ultemicia to Edea then to Rinoa.
3. The reason why she was able to take the power is because the story goes round in circles. ne1 thats beat the game will understand.

I understand completely......

thats a reply???
basically rinoa is around whilst ultemicia is around.

You don't understand the logic of it Coda. They are in the future, they aren't in the same time, when they go fight Ultimecia. This always opens up paradoxes and all that.

NO!
when rinoa fights edea!
this is at the same time u see. rinoa fights edea and edea is possesed by ultemicia.

Not sure what you meant there, but here are my two cents:

Yes, the time loop thing happens with Ultimecia's powers, but Rinoa's move forward in time. Meaning that Rin eventually will die and pass them on to someone else, and that person to someone else and so on, until generations in the future Ulty recieves them. That's how I believe it happened, I don't think R=U.

In a way, I suppose Rinoa could see herself as RESPONSIBLE for Ulty because Ulty is the final recepiant of her powers, but I don't think that that makes Rinoa physically Ulty.

Ok, If you look in your information, or somewhere in the game, it says that when Adel's knight died, she went power crazy and went to take over the world. I think when Rinoa's knight(squall) she went a little crazy and tried to control time so she controled everything and had all the sorceress' power. In doing so, she began to forget stuff like her name and her knight through all the power. Or something like that...

YESSSSSSSSSS

I LOVE THIS THREADS!!!! LOL

Personal Opinion:
I would've believed that R=U but I looked into it a lot...and yeah, not convincing me...

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Originally Posted by Coda

NO!
when rinoa fights edea!
this is at the same time u see. rinoa fights edea and edea is possesed by ultemicia.

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It's the same thing, Ultimecia went back in time to posses Edea. Therefor Rinoa could be there. You see it's not so clear cut.

I just don't think assumptions can be made on the subject and have any real veracity. If there were more concrete facts, like how far in the future does Ultimecia hail from, do Sorceresses have unnaturally long life etc etc.

Another point I'd like to make is that Edea didn't particularly care about her knight, Seifer. When he failed, or was injured, she basically treated him like an idiot and decided to finish things herself.

Additionally, we don't know that a Soceresses Knight is all that common. For all we know, Seifer and Squall could be the only Soceress's Knights to ever exist. We're never told anything about Adel's assumed knight (or even whether or not she had one), nor why Adel even wanted to take over the world (other than the fact that she could do it, so she did do it). I think that goes on to prove that the revenge idea is out of the question.

Furthermore, all of the soceresses in the game embrace very different powers. If you'll notice, Adel relies on non-elemental damaging magic and her magically enhanced strength, Edea relies on the more common magic avaliable to the player in the game with favortism towards ice magic (as obvious from her limit break), Rinoa uses her powers in some strange way with her limit break and her dog (she doesn't even have a specific type of magic she prefers) and it can be said that Ultimecia, though she does have the broadest spectrum of magical attacks besides Rinoa, is a Sorceress who's primary line of magic is the use of GFs. If R=U, then why are their natural uses of their powers so very different?

Honestly, I believe the use of Greiver was a psychological ploy to undermine Squall's newly gained confidence as leader. If you'll remember, Squall was far from self assured when this position was thrust upon him, and he really doesn't accept it until close to the end of the game. I don't think it was any indication that Ultimecia was really Rinoa who was scorned because Squall died.

'Sides, if he'd died then he wouldn't be in Kingdom Hearts, now would he? :greenie:

I don't believe in the R=U theory. It's supposed that a sorceress can read other people minds and even controled (like Edea did to Rinoa in disc1), so Ultimecia could easily had read Squall's mind and that way she found out that Griever is like "Squall's guardian angel" (at least in Squall's mind, if you cast Scan on Griever you'll see) so she used this to create the GF Griever and use it against him.

sorry for the spoiler thing but im new and i dont know how to do that.......and by the way this discussion is a very good one and also sorry for de confusion on griever gryphus jejejjeje i really dont thik that R=U...........

It says in the game (By Doc Odine I think), Ultimacia lives far into the future, so far it is not possible for any of us to exist then. Unless Rinoa is blessed with eternal life, I doubt its her.

Also Im not convinced she lost all her memory, and is trying to kill her supposed self (a.k.a Rinoa.)

We talked an an R=U thread some time ago about the fact that Ulty's ultimate goal wasn't really to kill Rinoa or Squall or anyone, but to achieve time compression. In order to achieve this, everyone had to die as a byproduct. That's not to say she felt bad about everyone dying (I doubt she did), but nevertheless that was not her immediate intent.

Why time compression? Because she was caught in this timeloop, and the only way for her to break out of it is to achieve time compression. She's an anomaly that can't easily exist in the normal world. Why else would she be the only one able to exist in a time compressed world? It's not because she's a sorceress, time compression would have killed Rinoa too. It's because there's something else paradoxically screwed up about her.

Rinoa, however, has NO problem existing where and when she does, and could not survive time compression. Therefore, she cannot be Ultimecia.

That's my theory.

However, I think the game lacks enough hard evidence to proove the point either way, so unless more is added to the story by Square we will all argue until we're blue in the face. :)

I know its not a good idea to judge this sort of thing by looks but have you seen how much Rinoa actually looks like Ultimecia? Heaps! I swear shes the same person with different coloured hair, face paint and contacts.
Ultys more likely to be Rinoa than any of the other main characters.

This is probably the law student in me talking, for which I wholly apologize, but....

It seems to me that the burden of proof here rests on the R=U crowd. Its not alluded to in the game in any meaningful way, unless you are looking for that answer and working backwards to support it.

Personally, I agree with the premise that sorceresses are not immortal, and that Ultimeca is very far into the future. Remember Odine's description of the machine that allowed her to transfer her conciousness.

Hmm... the problem is that the differenc ebetween RL and the court is that everything in FFVIII IS put in for a reason. In a RL court, I wouldn't dream of finding Rinia 'guilty' for being Ulti in the future because she said, for example 'wouldn't it be nice if time stopped' once. Heck, everybody could have said that. But the fact that SS CHOSE to put those words in her mouth, in a game where stopping time is such an important thing, does tell us a bit about what the SS people intended, IMHO. Together with the other things, that have been discussed plenty of times.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Hmm... the problem is that the differenc ebetween RL and the court is that everything in FFVIII IS put in for a reason. In a RL court, I wouldn't dream of finding Rinia 'guilty' for being Ulti in the future because she said, for example 'wouldn't it be nice if time stopped' once. Heck, everybody could have said that. But the fact that SS CHOSE to put those words in her mouth, in a game where stopping time is such an important thing, does tell us a bit about what the SS people intended, IMHO. Together with the other things, that have been discussed plenty of times.

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I wouldn't actually compare it to a RL court, but its more of something like disgreeing with "I've come up with this theory, which I will assume to be right unless you prove me wrong.", as opposed to the other way around. (Note "I" in that sentence is not directed at anyone in particular). It just rubs me the wrong way, but that is probably because I had stats classes prior to law classes, both of which tend to frown upon that kind of premise. Hard to undo 4+ years of physchological training.

IMO I think that whatever your predeturmined assumption is on wheater or not R=U, you are going to find proof to support your theory, Making truth to such facts will only weigh on those supporting your facts, either way. I Just finished Social Psychology and I remember something to that nature, i figured I would share that with you. I really cant remember what that process was, But i think it was Cognitive Dissanance or somthing.

Ok i took the liberty of finding a pic of Rinoa and a pic of Ultimecia just to back up what i said earlier. I made sure they were looking the same way (I flipped Ulty back to front :D ) Look at the shapes of the eyes, nose and chin, mouth size etc.....apart from the markings and the hair they do look alike.
Even if it dosnt add up or make sense I think that Square intended Ultimecia to be Rinoa.

OMG! You know what else? if you pull Riona's hair back, she looks sort of like Edea! Riona = Edea!

Just kidding of course. I do see what you are saying about the resemblence, and I thought about saying something about the eyes being slightly different, but it would end up in a circular conversation, so why bother?

There is just simply too little proof for me to give R=U any weight. And too much evidence against it, not the least of which being the "far in the future" status of Ultimeca, her manner of speaking, etc.... we've been all over it before, both ways.

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Additionally, we don't know that a Soceresses Knight is all that common. For all we know, Seifer and Squall could be the only Soceress's Knights to ever exist.

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Actually, Cid is Edea's knight. She says so if you talk to her in disk 3 after rescuing Rinoa.

wow Slade they do look kinda the same...but any way i also disagree with the R=U theory for most of the reasons stated here allready.

The point about grievr i spose, as a few people have said, is that Ulty use him against Squall and co becuse griever is a representation of Squall and his power (gunblade use, lionheat etc) so she's trying to use his power against him.

but yea all in all R=U=pants just my opinion

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Originally Posted by Slade

Ok i took the liberty of finding a pic of Rinoa and a pic of Ultimecia just to back up what i said earlier. I made sure they were looking the same way (I flipped Ulty back to front :D ) Look at the shapes of the eyes, nose and chin, mouth size etc.....apart from the markings and the hair they do look alike.
Even if it dosnt add up or make sense I think that Square intended Ultimecia to be Rinoa.

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sorry but u guys r nuts! that pic is bad for a comparrison.
every1 look closely. ulti has a normal nose with the nostrils pulling back the nose where as rinoa has just a upside down triangle for the bottom of her nose.
the lips are different, maybe you cant see because ulti is streched but its dif. and so on.
terrible comparrison

Well if you look closer you will see that Rinoa is actually slightly looking down so of course her nose is a tiny bit different. As for the mouth well thats pretty obvious......Ultimecia is smiling and Rinoa's mouth is just blah. :D

The picture comparison doesn't really prove anything except the fact Square were running low on character frameworks so they used a generic model for all the characters. I believe the R=U theory to some extent, but there is so much 'evidence' on either side I'm really not too sure. It would be a nice touch if it were true, but I don't think it was put there intentionally by Square, it's merely something gamers have assumed from game script.

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Originally Posted by Coda

sorry but u guys r nuts!

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hey i didn't say it was a R=U prover, i just sed that they looked more simialr than i thouhgt

Found this, has some good points...
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/prin...hreadid=353058

Who is Ultimecia?.That´s simple.What´s the name of the orphanage?Edea´s house.
Elemental.In Ulti´s time there is no orphanage,just Ulti´s castle (house).So Edea´s house is part of the castle.Kinda like a ruin.You can even see the White Seed´s there.They were pretending to be dead to deceive Ultimecia.That´s why Ulti´s castle was placed there.U=E