FF "heros"... are they really gone?

What direction do you think SE is takeing with their new characters? Do you think they're trying going in a more realistic direction with characters like Tidus? I think that by making their lead characters look a little wimpy they might be heading that way, and if so, doesnt that also raise a question about the need for realism in FF? Its true that realism needs to be acheived in some aspects, but is it neccissary to make everything real? Its a game, and most people play games to escape reality, so whats the point of trying to make games realer? My last question is, how many people miss characters like cloud, squall, zell, irvine, butz, leonheart, cid (cid highwind) and shadow?

I think it's very pre-emptive to worry about it when we have no idea what kind of character Vaan is. It's like saying "Well XI was online, so since Square differed in one game, does that mean all of them will be online now?"

I say wait until XII is out, then decide. Personally I dont mind either way. I dont see why people are so enamored of 'tough' characters anyway.

By the way, the tough character you listed werent all main characters... X has Auron, so why is it a 'lesser' game (by lesser I mean, without a tough hero)? Terra from VI wasnt very tough, but Shadow was in the game, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

I say wait until XII is out, then decide. Personally I dont mind either way. I dont see why people are so enamored of 'tough' characters anyway.

---

It's sad that people are already dismissing the game because Vahn looks "girly."

Why do all of these main characters have to be tough-as-nails badasses? Take Dante from Devil May Cry for instance. I think he's an awful character with cheesy one liners that make me want to gag. Why is he so damn popular? Because he acts "badass?" Are we really in an age where a character as well done as Tidus is considered to be on a lower rung than Dante?

I'll take the sensitive hero over the badass tree stump any day. It is unfortunate that a main character that steers to far from the machismo of the norm will be labeled "whiny" and inferior. Video games as of now are generally mindless entertainment to kill time. The casual player wants to shoot the hell out of something and look cool doing it.

Giving the player a (male) character who is sensitive and has feelings is a recipe for disaster among the casual gamer. Giving the player a (female) character who is sensitive and has feelings sparks endless elitist gamer rants on Gamefaqs about games with damsels in distress always suck.

You just can't win.

You know, Cloud was a complete wimp when you think about it. He had ultra scrawny arms (God only knows how he managed to hold that sword), really pale skin for someone who's supposed to be battle hardened, can't handle his own failings and invents a new past for himself, hands the (SPOILER)black materia right over the Sephiroth out of a total lack of willpower, got picked on as a little kid, and even dresses in drag. Why is he so much more manly than Tidus? It's not because of his glam-punk hair which must take 5 bottles of hairspray from the nearest salon to maintain, is it?

I have been bested, i will now receed to a corner and think on what i have done.

Im definately going to miss Cid highwind.....he was the coolest cid and not because of the profanity but he definately contributed to making 7 less-cheesy....

Im actually going to take a closer look on the supporting characters.....how different they are, their development...stuff like that just to neutralise the somewhat cheesy nature of recent ff lead characters (i.e tidus and yuna)...

So yea i know the lead will have somewhat of a "cheesy" nature in em' (its a pre-requisite these days) just looking on the other supporting characters to balance it out....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DJzen

You know, Cloud was a complete wimp when you think about it. He had ultra scrawny arms (God only knows how he managed to hold that sword), really pale skin for someone who's supposed to be battle hardened, can't handle his own failings and invents a new past for himself, hands the (SPOILER)black materia right over the Sephiroth out of a total lack of willpower, got picked on as a little kid, and even dresses in drag. Why is he so much more manly than Tidus? It's not because of his glam-punk hair which must take 5 bottles of hairspray from the nearest salon to maintain, is it?

---

Wow, I thought no one else agreed with me on that point. :)
I think Squall is actually a reasonably real type of character, you find out how he became the way he is and it makes complete sense from a realistic point of view. Not only is he realistic, he is cool too :D.
P.S. I don't have any problems with Tidus, it's Zidane that bothers me.

chaos: Zidane gained his respect from me during his act in Pandemonium. He was complete badass then, and had a huge reason for it. Also, for some reason, I found it easier to get him into Trance during that time, and it wasn't because he was the only fighter for a short time.

Albedo: *Laughs maniacally* And the reason he felt that way was actually quite realistic, and must've struck him like a blade.

chaos: But yeah, finding out the antagonist is your brother does kind of hurt, but whatever. At first, I thought he was just some perverted cliche' main character, but after that, he turned different from the rest of the crowd...

Rubedo: We do not actually have a favorite lead, but I doubt the main characters are declining or anything. Tidus, although he was whiny, was believable. Still, I hated him with all my passion when he whined, sometimes, it was fun to be around him as well. Supporting characters are who I really enjoy, and, like Auron from FFX, they all have amazing themes. Take shadow in mind, not only did he have an awesome end (or so I believe) but all the time, I'd be jumping with joy when he was included in a scene.

Trowa: I hardly believe that the characters are going to get worse and worse, and "icky-weak". In fact, they may end up getting more realistic, if we start acting more positive about it.

chaos: I found out, that if you expect something to be bad before you even see it/play it (:D) then, you kind of force yourself to not be impressed, and maybe even deny the fact that you may have enjoyed it, and only focus on the negative points.

The question i actually asked was what direction people thaught square enix was taking final fantasy. From what ive read ff12 seems very close to ff2 if you look at the storyline (or what we know of it). Are Square Enix going to repeat the old storylines over and over again?

Quote:

---

chaos: I found out, that if you expect something to be bad before you even see it/play it ( ) then, you kind of force yourself to not be impressed, and maybe even deny the fact that you may have enjoyed it, and only focus on the negative points.

---

Well, when I started FF8, all I heard about the game from friends is that it was a horrible game, and how it was so terrible, the worst FF ever. I started playing it, thinking that I was gonna have to hold my breath while playing, but after playing more and more, I began to like it and really wonder why people were saying that stuff, and I really began to love it.

The storylines are all the same basic thing anyway. World is in danger. Group of heroes saves the world. The end.

As far as XII's being a lot like II's... I've never heard that. If that's the case, I dont particularily care, but I'd really not stressed about it yet, seeing as the game isnt out yet. I wouldnt care if they used the same story lots of times, so long as it was always interesting. If they can make it interesting and compelling, that's all that matters to me. I'm not arguing semantics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

The storylines are all the same basic thing anyway. World is in danger. Group of heroes saves the world. The end.

---

You really just summed up every fantasy epic ever made. The basic plot lines in MOST stories are exactly the same every time. I once heard a very good argument that proposed that there are really only 7 stories, they just get told in different ways. I'm inclined to agree.

I'm glad you brought that up. I actually have a list of them on my computer that I use quite frequently. Here they are (my favorites are bolded):

1. Quest
2. Adventure
3. Pursuit
4. Rescue
5. Escape
6. Revenge
7. The Riddle
8. Rivalry
9. Underdog
10. Temptation
11. Metamorphosis
12. Transformation
13. Maturation
14. Love
15. Forbidden Love
16. Sacrifice
17. Discovery
18. Wretched Excess
19. Ascension
20. Dissension.

And this is a bit more in depth:

1. Supplication (in which the Supplicant must beg something from Power in authority)
2. Deliverance
3. Crime Pursued by Vengeance
4. Vengeance taken for kindred upon kindred
5. Pursuit
6. Disaster
7. Falling Prey to Cruelty of Misfortune
8. Revolt
9. Daring Enterprise
10. Abduction
11. The Enigma (temptation or a riddle)
12. Obtaining
13. Enmity of Kinsmen
14. Rivalry of Kinsmen
15. Murderous Adultery
16. Madness
17. Fatal Imprudence
18. Involuntary Crimes of Love (example: discovery that one has married one's mother, sister, etc.)
19. Slaying of a Kinsman Unrecognized
20. Self-Sacrificing for an Ideal
21. Self-Sacrifice for Kindred
22. All Sacrificed for Passion
23. Necessity of Sacrificing Loved Ones
24. Rivalry of Superior and Inferior
25. Adultery
26. Crimes of Love
27. Discovery of the Dishonor of a Loved One
28. Obstacles to Love
29. An Enemy Loved
30. Ambition
31. Conflict with a God
32. Mistaken Jealousy
33. Erroneous Judgment
34. Remorse
35. Recovery of a Lost One
36. Loss of Loved Ones.
37. Mistaken Identity

I think this deserves a whole 'nother topic.

Nice list... but unless I missed it, doesn't seem to have the great RPG plot-protection sterotype of "lost my muh.. muh... memories!" (Morte, Planescape Torment, making fun of the protagonist).

There's the idea that all stories are based on one of eight archetypes as follows :

Achilles: The fatal flaw that leads to the destruction of the previously flawless individual. Read : Superman to Kryptonite

Candide: The indomitable hero who cannot be put down. Read : Franchise films, such as Rocky, Die Hard etc

Cinderella : The dream-come-true scenario where virtue is rewarded in the end. Read : Pretty Woman

Faust : The selling-your-soul-to-the-Devil motif where fate eventually catches up with you. Read : The Devils Advocate

Orpheus : The gift that is taken away - this could take the form of the tragedy of the loss, or the journey which follows the loss. Read : Rain Man

Romeo and Juliet : Self-explanatory. Boy meets girl. Boy loses girl. Boy finds girl again - or doesn't. Read : Practically all rom-coms

Circe : The spider and the fly, the innocent and the victim. Read : The Terminator

Tristan : Triangles - man loves woman but a third party intervenes. Read : Gone With the Wind

I'm not sure which of those one could place the FF series. I'd say it takes ideas from Candide, Orpheus and Circe, with a bit of Romeo and Juliet and Tristan thrown in on certain occasions (FF8 and FF7 respectively).

As taken from the empire movie miscellany.

I hear that all of the final fantasy characters from 5-10(meaning 10-2 also) are coming to be in the final final fantasy(if there is one) if there is not a final final fantasy then they will apper in a final fantasy!!!!

I have no clue what Square's intentions are, but I don't like the idea of the realistic looking hero. The main reason being that Square is a Japanese company, and a realistic hero would look like a Japanese guy (like Tidus). Problem is I don't look like that and so it is hard for me to identify with the character, which is something I would like to do.

I don't think a hero needs to act like a 'badass', but he does need to look the part. I'd much rather see the guy donning the armor than parading around in a half a pair of pants. Looks are important. Tidus wasn't all that much of a wuss when you think about it, I mean the guy had a pretty emotional experience in that journey and dealt with it pretty maturely by the end. His problem was that whiney voice and that he said 'you know' way too often for me to have any sort of lasting respect for the guy.

Bottom line, I play fantasy games for a fantasy. I'm not interested in seeing people look and act like normal people. If I wanted that I'd go outside.

In my opinion there are no Hero's. The story is about one char as a sample FFX is about Tidus, but there would not be a game without any of the other chars. And that is with all of the FF games.

From looks it went downward after VIII, Zidane looked kinda like a girl, Tidus wimp, X-2 the Spice Girls basically, Xi no mc, XII you can't say much but Vaan lokks like a fag.

From personalities FFX and down so yes they seem to be gone maybe they'll return but maybe not.....

Its Final Fantasy for Altana's sake! If they're making the characters realistic (and taking away MP -FF8) you minus will call it Final Reality.

ANY good writer knows that a character must be believable. I find "wussy" characters with emotions and a decent background far more believable than some uberly macho character. For example, the character of Fei Fong Wong from Xenogears is extremely well developed, as are all the characters. They have strengths and weaknesses and different personality traits, and there is a reason why they are as they are. A bad character is one that has no real rhyme or reason for why they are as they are or do what they do, in essence, a character that isn't believable.

Final Fantasy is Fantasy, yes, but as I understand it, the characters are still human, and emotions still exist within the world, as well as most laws of nature and physics (albeit bent or weakened in some cases). Thus, I do not believe it unreasonable to expect that a character behave as a human might. Just because you write fantasy doesn't mean you are free to write some insulting piece of crap and call it good. Well, OK, you are, but then someone like myself will rip you a new one.

I couldnt have said it better myself, Void.

What good is having a character you cant relate to? It certainly doesnt give me any reason to empathize with him/her. If they dont have real emotions, then they're useless and better suited for games that arent devoted to character development, like Final Fantasy is. Final Fantasy revolves around it's characters.

It's like Chainsaw mentioned with Dante from Devil May Cry. That's the stupidest character I've ever had the displeasure to deal with. Cheesy lines and nothing that made me care about him. Completly two dimensional. What's the point?

And Final Fantasy characters have always been realistic (more or less). They've always had emotions (well, not all the games, but you know what I mean) and they've always been realistic in that sense. Terra reacted as she should have. So did Cloud. So did Squall (up until a point). So did Zidane. And so did Tidus. People just hate Tidus because he wasnt 'bad ass' enough.

And I really dont see what a character's appearance has to do with his attitude. And I have no respect whatsoever for people that cant think up anything better than "XII you can't say much but Vaan lokks like a fag."

You'll also note that I didn't mention any characters from the Final Fantasy series when I talked about bad characters. There is a reason for this: there really aren't any. There are characters I might dislike, but all in all, the characters have backgrounds and emotions. Squaresoft (as the Enix side of the company deals with their own games, which they do quite well I might add) is generally good at producing good characters, the only real exception to this being Chrono Cross, which had too many for a decent background on all of them to be given.