I don't get it. So, the memories Cloud was having at the start of the game were all Zack's? What happened to Zack though? 0_o Its been a while since I played the game.
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I don't get it. So, the memories Cloud was having at the start of the game were all Zack's? What happened to Zack though? 0_o Its been a while since I played the game.
After Cloud and Zack escaped from the laboratory in Nibelheim, they headed towards Midgar.
Zack got killed and Cloud proceeded to Midgar to fulfill Zack's wish, which was to become a mercenary.
A combination of stress, guilt, and inferiority caused Cloud to take many of Zack's memories and make them his own; memories he learned from long conversations with Zack. After Zack was shot and killed by Shin Ra soldiers just outside of Midgar, Cloud is found by Tifa (in Zack's clothing no less) who he wanted desperatly to impress (especially when he was younger) so he began to use Zack's life, saying he was in SOLDIER and all that (this is just one of the catalysts, mind you, but it seems to be the first time Cloud does this so it merits mention).
He doesnt directly have Zack's memories, only what Zack told him, as proven by the fact that Cloud doesnt 'remember' Aerith, who had been Zack's girlfriend.
edit: Oh, and to be clear, Cloud believes every word he says the truth. So all this stuff about being in SOLDIER and whatnot, he isnt conciously lying everytime. Tifa knows something is up, so she begins to prod him gently, reminding him of things and trying to get a clear picture of what's wrong. She only knows the extent (and can only help him out of his false identity) when she's in his mind in the Lifestream.
Oh...okay! Thanks! that cleared up a lot! ^^
You know what i dont get??
Those tubes in the ShinRa mansion... they were each in seperate tubes... now how in the hell did they communicate to each other in those tubes.... they planned thier escape... i remember they talked to each other saying to leave when they were being fed... how did they communicate..?? wierd...
As for the Cloud and Zack thing...
Cloud took memories from Zack after he died... the memories he took were...
-being in SOLDIER
-becoming a mercenary
-some things that happened in Nibelhiem (not all of them)
Some people mix some up... From the time that Tifa was leading the way to the reactor... Cloud was actually the Shinra Soldier following along... he was the one that didnt get lost after falling off the bridge.... And he was also the soldier that blocked Tifa from entering the reactor...
Now the things that happened in the reactor... some were Zack's memories... I'm guessing Zack told him about that stuff... but the second time in the reactor... it was all Cloud... Zack was defeated and Tifa got hit across the chest... the last was Cloud... he came in and Carried Tifa off to the side and she told him "So you did come"... When Cloud was explaining this in Kalm he said he was confused about why she said that... (He had mixed memories at the time and didnt really know)
So the person that defeated Sephiroth was... DUN DUN DUN ...CLoud! (Not Zack...) Some people get mixed up about that... =P After that... Cloud fainted and whatever... and the whole, "getting tested on by Hojo" started...
Wootz... ^_~ Get it? =D
im bored so i thought id post; Good explanation ^^ *clap*
? :confused: Huh? explain please :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
Zack = girlfriend of : Aeris
Cloud = messed up
Zack + Cloud + Whole Nibelheim incident + Zack dying = Cloud + Zack's memories
But Cloud <> Having memory of Aeries
As Zack's memories <> Everything, rather Zack's memories = What he told Cloud
E=mc2
My brain hurts...Quote:
Zack = girlfriend of : Aeris
Cloud = messed up
Zack + Cloud + Whole Nibelheim incident + Zack dying = Cloud + Zack's memories
But Cloud <> Having memory of Aeries
As Zack's memories <> Everything, rather Zack's memories = What he told Cloud
E=mc2
EDIT: good expaination though :D
Explain which? I'll just explain both.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_midget192
A few people have thought that Cloud has all of Zack's memories and that he gained them through the ordeal in the basement of the Sin Ra mansion, perhaps through an experiment. But Cloud doesnt know everything Zack knows, as proven by the fact that Cloud doesnt recognize Aerith. He may have been told about Aerith by Zack, but of course he wouldnt know her just by looking at her. He may figure that out later, and his attraction to her may even be, in part, because of that. Not neccesarily so, but it could be.
To sum it up: Cloud only knows what Zack told him.
Aerith was Zack's girlfriend. A hint lies in Cloud's first meeting with Aerith, when she talks about her boyfriend who was in SOLDIER (this isnt in the church, but further down the line and still in Midgar). Aerith is reminded of Zack when she sees Cloud. Absolute proof is given if you visit Zack's parents in Gongoga with Aerith in your party.
I like to think that Zack and Aerith are reunited in death and live...er... exist happily ever after,
If it's been such a long time since you've played the game, why are you asking this? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by K-chan
Anyway, after Sephiroth was thrown into the mako at the Nibelheim Reactor(roughly 5 years before the beginning of the game), Hojo took Zack and Cloud and started experimenting on them(as shown by Hojo's notes found in the Shinra Mansion). Zack had no reaction to the Jenova cell injections, but Cloud did. On disc 3, go to the basement of the Shinra Mansion to see a flashback that shows this. Anyway, Zack finally helped Cloud escape, and they went off to Midgar. Somewhere along the way, Cloud gets a change of Zack's clothes(I don't remember exactly how). Anyway, while Zack's helping him across the continent, Cloud was still really messed up/sick along the way. Anyway, finally Hojo's goons catch up with them, and Zack's killed, and Cloud takes his sword.
His mind was still so messed up from the Jenova cell injections that his brain couldn't recognize the difference between his own memories and his memories of other people(especially Zack). That's where the confusion started. Eventually, he came to believe that he actually was in SOLDIER. This was aided by his own feelings of inadequacy and guilt.
MistaCloud: they communicated by "writing" on the tubes, I believe.
Hmm...writing in the tubes eh?? That would make most sense i guess....
And I'll explain a bit more...
After they escaped they hitched a ride on a yellow truck... they were heading toward Midgar... Cloud was actually a HUGE burden on Zack since he was all... yeah. Messed up... Anyway... Zack found some clothes and changed Cloud.. they arent really Zacks Clothes...
While on the truck Zack was talking to CLoud... all the things that Zack said THEN AND THERE is most of the things Cloud absorbed... and thats what he bacame... Thats when Zack also said he had a girlfriend back in Midgar... Thats all he said... Cloud wouldnt know how Aeris looked like that... he didnt share Zacks memories or anything...
After that... i'm guessing they travelled on boat to junon... there they prolly got caught and were chased down to the outskirts of Midgar... There Zack got shot up really bad and Cloud left for dead....
This is where my own theory comes into play...
I think the guy in that tube... is Zack... since the man outside the tube said that he was found on the outskirts of midgar... since Zack was injected with JENOVA cells and Mako that would make him very durable and hard to kill... so thats what i think...
ALSO.... i read about someone saying that Zack didnt get affected by JENOVA cells.... actually Cloud was supposed to be the one that wasnt affected.... thats why Hojo called him a failure... he was the one who wasnt supposed to be effected... BUT... IMO... i think that Cloud was effected by JENOVA, but instead of reaching his potential in a short time... his potential would be reached slower than others but the end result would be greater than that of a normal person... basically i think the strength from the J cells would effect him slower but in the end stronger... ^_~ Make sense?
Thats why he was the only one that made it to the reunion... he was (in the end) the strongest... out of all of them....
Perhaps Cloud is ... schizophrenic ???
JENOVA cells make a person hard to kill, but being shot point blank in the head multiple times is more than enough to do the job. Not to mention that the man in the tube had a number tattoo, and Cloud didnt, so it's not too far of a stretch to assume that Zack didnt, either.
Yeah, imagine the end of Resident Evil 3 and replace Nemesis with Zack.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
I'll just throw in my two cents here. JENOVA cells have the ability to change one's appearance as well as one's thoughts and memories. When Cloud met Tifa in Midgar after Zack died, what was left of his consciousness remember his want to impress Tifa and be this person that he wanted to be. The JENOVA cells reacted to that, and made him a SOLDIER. It gave him the strength of a SOLDIER, the mako eyes, and in this process it put the memories of Zack, a SOLDIER, in place of Cloud's own memories because those were the memories of a SOLDIER, which the JENOVA cells made him be. So I think that when Cloud is having Zack's memories, he isn't doing it on purpose, the JENOVA cells are making him do it, and Cloud actually believes that these are his memories. So basically everything TheAbominatrix said but with JENOVA cells invoking the whole mess.
Since we are throwing around theories here, I throw this one out. Now, the threat from the sky, i.e. Jenova, caused a crater that the earth is trying to fix. It's been there for a few millenia and the earth still hasn't fixed it. Why is it taking so long??? Because that's not all the earth is trying to fix. It is also trying to rid itself of JENOVA, until recently. So the earth is using the lifestream to rid itself of JENOVA. JENOVA must either multiply at a steady rate or be rather resiliant to have lasted for so long. So take this down to a smaller scale. To ward off a JENOVA cell, one would need the lifestream, or mako energy. So think of mako energy as like medicine for JENOVA cells. Now, normally when one takes medicine, one already has the systems of the illness. You take the medicine, the symptoms continue until the medicine kicks in, if it even works. However, if you have taken the medicine before hand, i.e. a vaccine or preventative medicine, then your body is ready for the illness before the illness is even there, and it can ward it off without symptoms. So, this is why I believe that Zack was unaffected by the JENOVA cells. He was infused with mako energy to make him a SOLDIER, so in essence he had taken the vaccine for JENOVA cells. It's not said that Cloud is treated with both JENOVA cells and mako (Hojo's notes only say JENOVA cells), but he probably was. So Cloud was given the medicine either shortly beforehand or afterwards, apparently not long enough to properly fend off the JENOVA cells. And who knows if it was even enough to do so in the first place. But what saved Cloud from the same fate as the rest of the Sephiroth clones was Tifa. When he saw Tifa, what was left of his consciousness triggered a reaction with the JENOVA cells to make him into the person that he became. Otherwise, he would have just stayed the way he was and one day wondered off to the north crater like the rest of them. When he falls into the lifestream the first time and receives mako poisoning, he kind of like he was heavily injected with the medicine for JENOVA cells. So when they finally finished working and Tifa helped him find his consciousness again, he was himself again. Notice that from here on through the game he no longer experiences any voices or meetings with himself or headaches of any kind. This is just they way I see things though.Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaCloudStrife
I think there's one thing you got confused. The SOLDIER get infected by Mako energy and Jenova cells when they join SOLDIER. Zack was already a SOLDIER when Hojo did those Jenova experiments to Cloud and him, so since Zack already had Jenova cells inside him, he was immune to their effects. However, Cloud never made it into SOLDIER so the combination of his weak self-image and Jenova cells got him totally messed. This is said by Cloud after you get him back from the Lifestream:Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeDRankLou
CLOUD: "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells... For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion. But weak people... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weaknesses are what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm... Cloud... the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more... I'm going to live my life without pretending."
I don't think Cloud got rid of Jenova cells after getting out of the Lifestream. He just found himself and restored his self-image. Besides, the Jenova you had chased through the entire game (the one who looked like Sephiroth, and whose Birth, Life and Death forms you fought) was destroyed and the real Sephiroth was in the Northern Crater, sleeping and waiting for the Meteor to hit the Planet. The Reunion wasn't going on anymore, so neither Sephiroth nor Jenova were trying to control those with Jenova cells anymore, so that's why Cloud doesn't go berserk for the rest of the game.
If you remember, Cloud hears Sephiroth's voice in his head once more, after the final battle. He gets messed up one more time, and inside his mind, he Omnislashes Sephiroth to shreds. However, after this, you see both red and green lights going inside Cloud. Red indicates Jenova, green indicates Holy/Lifestream. The screen blinks because of those lights, and after a while only green energy flows out of Cloud, and there's no signs of Jenova's red energy anywhere. You could interpret this in many ways. However, I always think it so that this is where Lifestream cleans Jenova cells out of Cloud for good. It also works with the symbolic meaning that Cloud destroyed Sephiroth (who symbolizes Jenova) in his mind to be free of those evil cells.
BTW I still have doubts about how Zack can die if a few Shinra guards shoot a few bullets through his chest. Cloud and Tifa got Sephiroth's huge sword impaled through their hearts (and Cloud didn't have Mako or Jenova cells that time, he was just a normal guy) and they still survived. Cloud killed Sephiroth, but within five years, Jenova revived him. Now why wouldn't it be possible that the Jenova cells inside Zack restored him too, though he was still messed up because of the damage, so he ended up sick in the pipe in Midgar?
1. No one can survive numerous bullet wounds point-blank. Those Shinra guards tore Zack up. Also, Zack exhibited NO RESPONSE to the Jenova cell injections, so the Jenova cells wouldn't have helped keep him alive anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD
2. In the flashback, Tifa almost died. So did Cloud. Hojo saved Cloud by rushing him in his unconcious state to the lab so he could experiment on him.
3. Jenova didn't revive Sephiroth directly(or, at the very least, it's a big assumption to say so). His Jenova cells, however, did keep him alive while his body was frozen in stasis.
Aeris was zacks girlfreind???
*sighs* Yes, she was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage
The reason that sephiroth survived cloud at the niblhiem reactor is the fact that they were standing over a pool of mako. and in my theory mako is a secret chemical that inhances the body and mind therefore making the body heal faster, so when Cloud struck sephiroth he fell into the pool therefore healing him and thats how he survived. But mako messes with the j-cells so sephiroth would have been temporarly incapitated, (ergo the 5 years he wasnt seen). and when he comes back from his mako enhanced state, takes what he thought was ritefully his all along: "the promised land" blames shin-ra for all there wrong doings and cuts off the head of shin-ra. Totally unaware of the vice prez: Rufus, he would not have known because he was "incapitated". this is why cloud starts freaking out at the reactor, it was when Sephiroth returned. (Cloud always freaks out when sephiroth comes near). Well thats my two cents. :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
ACTUALLY, Cloud was the only clone to not recieve a tattoo... or number... "What number am i?" Its because he was said to be a failure...
And hasnt it been said that the experiments had no effect on Zack? Or did I imagine that one? Wouldnt that warrant him not having a number? Not that it matters anyway, since, as I said, being riddled with bullets would kill anyone, no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaCloudStrife
As I said, the experiments had no effect on Zack because he was already a SOLDIER and he already had Mako and Jenova cells inside him, so he was immune to the effect of Jenova cells. BTW Is it known whether Hojo infected Cloud with Mako energy in addition to Jenova cells, or where did Cloud get his blue Mako eyes?
You have to read the pages in the basement of the shinra mansion... it never says whos who... but when you find out that CLOUD was the failure... it clears everything up...
And about the bullets....
To prove the effects of jenova cells and mako... i will give you an example....
Ahhheeem...
Aeris - stabbed in the back thru to her stomach... dead.
Cloud (mako, a TINY bit of mako not like that of SOLDIER) - Stabbed in the stomach and thru the back... lived.
Now... Zack... (Injected with J cells AND more Mako showering than a normal soldier) he was shot by tons of bullets... (Never was it stated he was shot a bunch of times in the head) as you can see it was his body that was shot since his body was jumping up and down while getting shot... not his head... anyways... the person in the tube was in the same kind of state that Cloud was after Cloud was stabbed... twitching head and everything like that...
NOW... if you really know FFVII, you should already know that Sephiroth was the first one... has the #1 tattoo... Now... Cloud and Zack were the 2nd and 3rd people to be tested on (To make the Seph clone)... and CLOUD was the one with no number... if you payed attention... the man in the tube has the tattoo number... DUN DUN DUN #2... So.... that since it cant be Cloud... the only person it really could be is Zack... also, like i said before... the man outside the tube said he found that man on the outskirts of Midgar... the EXACT place where Zack and Cloud were left for dead.... and just so you know... Hojo never said that both specimens (Cloud and Zack) were failures... just one...
Now either my theory is right... or that is just TOO many coincidences... And squaresoft just made it like that on accident... Which i highly doubt... but whatever you think... ur entitled to your opinion...
thats what i said! :) i love these threads, there so insightful. Please continue. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage
Check my formulaQuote:
Originally Posted by Carnage
Cloud got his "blue mako eyes" from injections of Mako, so the logical conclusion was that Hojo, indeed, injected Cloud with Mako. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD
Oh, and Zack wasn't "immune" to Jenova cells. He exhibited no reaction from them, so was called a failure(look at Hojo's notes). Since he didn't have a number, he wasn't given successful Jenova cell injections before. Cloud did react a little, but Hojo didn't see him getting any stronger, so also deemed him a failure. Neither received numbers.
EDIT:
Reread that part of your formula again. :pQuote:
Zack = girlfriend of : Aeris
What Raist said. Not to mention that the tube is not even close to the exact place where Zack dies, and in Advent Children, Cloud is seen paying his respects to Zack's grave. And so on and so forth. Not to mention that the guy looks nothing like Zack, and no doubt Aerith would recognize him. And now I have to go move stuff.
It wasnt atually zacks memory it was clouds own memories, the memory ware tifa was neeing next her dead father, zack had already ran past that part, if you havent gone to the part ware cloud fights sephiroth in nebleim(forget how you spell) :laughing: it tells you all that happened that time :shifty: :chop:Quote:
Originally Posted by K-chan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx Power
LOL but :) i still think that there were all still clouds memorys
Do not double post. Use the edit/delete button. ~ Leeza
uh... to make a long story short cloud went to niblehiem sehiroth read somethings and went insane zack and cloud get knocked out and experimented on then half way through the experiment they get away, zack put up a resistance and died and they thought cloud was dieing but cloud lived and kept zack's memories or part of his recent memories not inclueding aerith and thus that's what happened from my part of view. Any questions?
Maybe thell patch all that up in FF:VII AC?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
Why would he only keep certain memories? And how would he get those memories. Zack is shot and killed in the field, not in a lab, so how would Cloud get those memories? And if he got his memories, why would he only get ones that fit convieniently into the story? He doesnt 'get' memories for Zack, he's told things by Zack, maybe just in an effort to keep Cloud from giving up and falling asleep (which can be fatal if you're sick/wounded), and he uses those memories as his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by One winged angel of death
have you read this one guys theory about genova shephiroths motherQuote:
Originally Posted by MistaCloudStrife
controlling sephiroth and also cloud causing cloud to go crazy and gave sephiroth back the black materia to reserect him? the only way she did it is using the jenova cells in there bodys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
well what i think is that it wasnt only zacks memorys Cloud had expirience it also--thats my opinion :upsidedow
JENOVA isnt Sephiroth's mother. That was just a way for her to manipulate him by telling him that.
And Cloud did experience most of that, yes. He put himself in Zack's position in most of that. But he didnt experience all of it, like SOLDIER training and all that. He still thinks he went through it, but he didnt really experience it.
I wouldnt say that JENOVA controlled Sephiroth the whole game... I say Sephiroth is working with Jenova... Why would she make him think she's his mother when she can just control him without having to go thru all that trouble... He's been BORN with J cells so in some way he IS her son... and I think she accepted him as that... The only person that can recreate Sephiroth in the "Area of the WEAPONs" is IMO Jenova... and she plans to create him again... her son. If this wasnt true then there wouldnt be a "half-made" Sephiroth there... and Sephiroth should be running around not saying anything except stuff like, "You are my puppet" or those things Jenova would say.... =P
He also just knows things about Zack from working with him. Cloud didn't have to be told about Nibelheim, for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix
Replay the flashback, especially the part where Sephiroth goes insane. Sephiroth "found out" that Jenova, an alien, was his "mother" from Hojo's notes. However, that's all he found out.Quote:
I wouldnt say that JENOVA controlled Sephiroth the whole game... I say Sephiroth is working with Jenova...
Then, later, he has this half-brained theory that he and his "mother" are Cetra, and the humans are traitors. Where'd he get that from? Jenova.
It's quite simple to believe that Jenova took control of him when he went insane by manipulative lies meant to get him to actually believe in her.
Alright... then what would you say about the rest of my theory... you kind of just took a bit of it and thats all... O.o?
I only skimmed it, and only responded to the falsehoods I noticed. :p *goes back to look over it more*Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaCloudStrife
Umm...which one of your numerous posts in this thread constitutes your "theory?" I already responded to the Jenova post.