Spoilers about Zanarkand ubication

I have to say it, I have to say it !... I Saw the Blitzball FMV again and I noticed something very weird , Sin is absorbing everything , then when you are falling like in a dream (with that o - go down that still don´t know for what is it) you can see that strange mark that jecht have in his chest, the same on fire that you see in the last fight ( some relations about that mark?),he say father ?and bla bla bla , is pretty obvious that´s is the scene from the last fight .
Tidus is actually sucked up by sin, I mean, Sin is actually trowing tidus out of his body and that explain all that weird stuff about Sin being a portal between spira and dream zanarkand .
Later in the game we find that the way to beat sin is getting inside of it , And what we we find inside ?, Jecht, the mark of fire , And actually the dream zanarkand !, THE DREAM ZANARKAND IS INSIDE OF SIN. I´ve think about it and it make sense, The faith were pushed to dream forever a Zanarkand, and sin is forever, so, the only way that the faith stop dreaming is defeating sin . What about all that methaphora about never returning to zanarkand , At the end it happens in the last fight with jecht. I also tought that the ball of water that destroy zanarkand isn´t really the body of sin , something like the spirit with another image,I´m going to push it to expeculation and say that tha ball of water was jecht with the form of braska aeon, and you Can´t say , That´s not true !, because is very difficult to see, and my argument is ... well, the otherworld song in both intro and jecht fight ? , And yes, Auron say "We call it Sin", But, Jecht is already sin so... that explain it all. what about Sauron riding sin ?,dont you mean GETTING IN ?. What about sin being an armor , an armor in wich yevon could live in zanarkand forever. Why they took the chosen one´s from that zanarkand , why jecht , why tidus, ohhh i forgot, the only way to beat sin is from the inside right ?. You can also say that "the hymn of faith , very related to the ruins of zanarkand with the name of "returning to zanarkand" is only realted because jecht is inside of sin, no way, the whole zanarkand is inside of sin and that is why the song is so effective, Is in some dialogue, some about zanarkand living forever in this song. If Zanarkand isn´t inside sin, where is it ?, because say "Zanarkand never sleeps" and say "Sin never stop" is something very obvious.
All this answer a question that I had, The calm period of 10 years between braska Summoning ends just right when Jecht atack dream zanarkand ? (in The Blitzball FMV), in that moment Sin awakes in spira again ?, because if that´s correct Dream zanarkand is like frozen , with jecht in the plattform , and that´s why ject is already inside of sin, zanarkand inside of sin, and jecht and tidus don´t meet until tidus is throw out of zanarkand, Jecht was waiting tidus to be ready , so he could awake in the right moment.
what do you think ?, I´m searching for more arguments, I´ve never seen anybody telling this in any post so I think this is some good point to discuss. Throw the opinions NOW !

Hmmm. . . the dream existing inside of Sin would make sense, giving it a physical place and adding to the ability of Sin to travel between the two locations. Also, it would work if the fayth dreaming Zanarkand were made into Sin, then that location makes sense.

It also would explain something I've always wondered about - why the image of Sin sleeping is its own FMV. Why bother? Perhaps it was a clue? I don't know, but it sounds like a good theory to me. Sin dies=dream Zanarkand gone.

when sin dies it doesn't mean dream zanarkand is gone. they would have to (SPOILER)defeat yu yevon, the greatest summoner who is summoning zanarkand, which they did.

its a very interesting theory. in fact, when sin starts to disentegrate over bevelle, you can actually see what appears to be some sort of building on top of his head. i kno its not inside, but everytime i see that fmv, im 100% positive its a building.

very interesting if jecht was infact the body of water attacking zanarkand, because if u think deeply about the story, it was more jechts story than nething else. he's the one who orchestrated everything, and who really wanted to end the dreaming of the fayth. what better way then to attack dream zanarkand and FORCE tidus to start his journey?

also, inside sin, it sort of looks like a weird type of star trek scenery; like everything is sort of advanced technology, kind of like how zanarkand was the great machina city. also, wasn't there a "tower of the dead"(?) i think its called inside sin?well, the ppl of zanarkand are dead. then again, it could just be where the dead go once they were killed by sin. i think it shows that after operation mi'hen all the dead soldiers walking around. i don't kno. i wanna hear more tho:)

well lon66 , to kill sin you got to kill Yevon, It´s the same, so , when sin dies, so does yevon. I also saw that bunch of buildings on sin , but I didn´t related with anything (Busy trying not to be killed), thanks, that give strenght to the theory. I want to relate the dialogues to find out who is that masked kid hat is called "the faith" trought the game, I found that he says "don´t cry no more" a lot to tidus , just like Jecht does, Could this kid be some chracter that we already know ?, I dont swallow that thing of "rebelious Faith" o "we are tired of dream", but well . Keep give the opinion about zanarkand.

i agree about zanarkand being in sin. it makes sense..
(SPOILER)arn't the faith the dead of zanarkand??? so they keep the dream of it alive IN sin. and yu yevon keeps them in sin.... i'm confused....
(SPOILER)so whent the final aeon is summoned...that person becomes part of the dream??? and fuels sin??
i don't really know what i'm saying...

Wilder-- Yevon did not die when you killed Sin. He can exist without it, which is how he keeps living even though Sin is killed by the final summoning over and over.

The little kid is just a fayth(bahamut's, actually) that was deemed as a messanger boy. In ffx-2 (SPOILER) he shows up to yuna several times, like at right before the perfect ending, to tell her that they'll think of a way to bring tidus back

Dream Zanarkand doesn't have a physical location as far as I'm concerned. It's a *dream*.

Most likely Jecht modeled his Sin after what he remembered, because it's what he remembered. Making it a replica of a memory, not the thing itself. Because the thing itself doesn't exist in our dementions-- it's out there in the fourth or fifth one I guess ;)

If Dream Zanarkand was inside Sin, the party would've found all of Dream Zanarkand-- the other blitzball teams, the families, the stupid announcer that was going to run away from home before Jecht disappeared.

The reason you have to get inside Sin is because its outer armor is too strong to be defeated from without. That's why all the ordinary tactics of warfare-- chocobo knights, machina, etc appear to just bounce off of it.

the ball of water that sin used to destroy the first zanarkand was just . . . water. . .

What you really should be wondering about is first off: how did jecht become the only one that was picked up by Sin when it made a random trip to dream zanarkand ten years ago? didn't anyone else go with him? (it makes it sound like jecht is the real main character, and this was his destiny: not his story, but just his destiny:)), then how long was Auron in Dream Zanarkand, and how did he convince tidus and his mom that he was a friend of Jecht's (well, she was in considerable distress, so I'm sure she would've accepted anyone that said that and was friendly enough)

about the songs: Otherworld was played when the first bonds with the Dream Zanarkand began to break, and when the last ones were broken. IE, when Sin showed up. All it was was a reverse foreshadowing about Sin being Jecht, who was a man from an OtherWorld (in the words of Maechan:))

I really doubt that if the dream zanarkand was a physical place that the hymn of the fayth would be heard. It was hard enough to hear it just through Sin's armor.

(back to the city inside sin, it could just be an apparatition of pyreflies with tidus' thoughts, or possibly with yevon or jecht's. They do that sort of thing. )

I'm sure if Dream Zanarkand was a physical place Cid would've added a spot to the airship saying 'omgomgomg IT"S ZANARKAND LIKE IT WAS 1000 YEARS AGO! omgomgomg!'

:)

borisnono, the fayth that are summoning dream zanarkand are NOT inside sin, but are on the wall just before zanarkand on mt. gagazet.

after thinking aobut it, i don't think dream zanarkand is a physical place, or else it wouldn't be DREAM zanarkand, now would it? :rolleyes2
i believe its in another dimension or something sci-fi like that, lol. some1 in another thread said things summoned(ie dream zanarkand) HAD to be summoned in spira, but i don't recall nething about taht, so it could be in another dimension or something. plus, yu yevon IS the greatest summoner who ever lived, so i bet he'd figure out a way.

plus, i doubt yu yevon would create a physical dream zanarkand, otherwise it could get destroyed, jst like the first one did ;)

ok Rubah, I´m gonna try to explain some of the points that you wrote , and try to give my point of view.

- I know that yevon can´t die before sin, I said that you supossed that if sin is dead , yevon is also dead.
- I haven´t play FFX-2 so, if there´s an explanation fot this kid ,Im
lost.
- ok let´s begin wih zanarkand. I didn´t say that Zanarkand have a PSYSICAL location , I know it´s a dream , I know it doesn´t exist anymore. But the dream is being develope inside of sin , Sin is like Yevon sanctuary along his zanarkand.
- I don´t know what you mean with " because it's what he remembered", Ok, If jecht appears in the last battle in a replica of zanarkand there could be 2 options : He is in the "dream zanarkand" , or he is in a replica that he dreamed himself , I mean, what´s the most logical for you ?. For me is more logical to say that Sin is a bridge between spira and zanarkand because there´s only one World , that´s is spira , And sin who is living in spira carries zanarkand inide, or , Sin is an ultra galatic speed light monster that can travel to the fourth or fith dimension.
- the party were not into sin vacation trip , actually, you can see Zanarkand all the way down when Jecht morph into braska aeon, there´s a FMV and all the lights of zanarkand are turned on. If you remember very well, The Faith freeze all the people in zanarkand at the beginning , there was no more active life in zanarkand since the disaster , and it was turned into this world with Jecht in the big plaform that you can see in the first (o-go down) dream scene , in that scene you can see for last time zanarkand, that´s very clear I think.
- You are right, Sin´s armor is very strong, but they were breaking it with that canon Lolll. Actually this is the first thing that you wrote " Yevon did not die when you killed Sin. He can exist without it, which is how he keeps living even though Sin is killed by the final summoning over and over ". That explains to you why they have to get inside, to kill yevon, not because sin armor , they don´t want only to kill Sin actually since they discover all the true about yu yevon.
- Just water ?, you mean that´s is normal in your neighborhood, A giant ball of water spitting balls of fire. I said that it was Jecht with the aeon braska because It would have been so obvious if jecht appears like he is, he would have been recognized, You can´t see what is inside , but there´s something inside. And since Aeon braska is a fire dude the balls of fire that destroy everything make some sense.Hey , look !, Auron says, we called it sin . Obiously isn´t just water.
- Well. how jecht get involved ,that´s not explained in the game , the only thing that is now for sure is that when Jecht was launched to spira ther was no atack to zanarkand !, no balls of water, he just dissapear as the guy in the beginning commentary said. that means that maybe he was trow by mistake ?, Luck ?, destiny ?, whtever, The true is that The only reason why Tidus is launched ouside of spira is because jecht planned it, and if the Dream Zanrkand is inside sin as jecht , that make a good point to reinforce the theory.
- I just relate Otherwold with Jecht, the two times that I heard that song in one was jecht and in the first I think there he is ( Sin being Jecht, who was a man from an OtherWorld ) . And "return to Zanarkand" , You should have been so dristracted when jecht said "I can´t hear the hymn so clear now because I´m becoming Sin while the time goes on"(or something like that), and what about "Zanarkand lives in the song"?.

Ok I repeat, Zanarkand is not a physical place where you can go, Is a dream that is being developed in side of sin, and you discover that only in the last minutes of the game , like a conclusion to the mistery. Thanks a lot for your comments.

HA nice theory I like it

1. Yeah, I think that what Wilder meant was that unless you defeat Yu Yevon, Sin doesn't really die at all, so when Sin really dies, the dream is destroyed.

2. Yes, the physical bodies of the fayth are on Gagazet, but Yevon originally used their souls to create the armor that originally made Sin (before all this final Aeon business). However, those bodies, encased in rock, are hardly alive even before Sin is destroyed. Therefore their consciousness, which is creating the dream, would be a part of Sin, no?

3. If the fayth's consciousnesses are a part of Sin, then their dream would technically come from "inside" Sin. That doesn't mean its a physical location, but it emenates from there.

4. I do reacall seeing the city on top of Sin's head, and thought it was really odd. I have no idea what that's all about, but I don't think its dream Zanarkand.

5. Jecht was called out by the fayth, most likely, in hope that he could help the Spirans defeat Sin. When he failed, Auron gave his son a try.

6. I dunno, I just think that the dream coming from inside Sin would explain why Sin could enter the dream - they both emenate from the same set of consciousnessees.

Okay, that was confusing. Sorry. :p

1) Dream Zanarkan is NOT inside Sin!!
I mean, in the beginning, Sin attacks Dream Zanarkand, and if DZ had been inside himself, that wouldn't make any sense!

2) Dream Zanarkand IS a physical location just like Tidus is a "physical person". Yu Yevon made DZ out of pyreflies, like a gigantic Aeon, so you could consider DZ as a massive Aeon.
I mean, if Tidus is readily seen and touched, then obviously the rest of DZ can be touched. Tidus himself could be considered the equivalent of Bahamuts big toe.

3) The town you see inside Sin is NOT Dream Zanarkand, or else, as someone else pointed out, you should see all the people hanging around. The Dead City inside Sin is merely a result of Jecth's memories of DZ. Since the pyreflies react to thoughts and memories(like in the Farplane) they formed the thing Jecht was thinking about the most.

4) The buildings on top of Sin are probably wreckage from towns he wrecked in the past.

5) All that is confirmed by the FFX Ultimania Omega Guide. For those who don't know what that is, it's the official Square Strategy guide which also includes lots of information about the storyline.

I recommend reading this excellent FAQ:

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/432/432338p1.html

ok, wilder. the "kid" is just a regular fayth that is sort of the messenger of the other fayth and tries to help the characters defeat Sin. he keeps repeating "youll cry, you always cry" as sort of a foreshadow to both jecht and the final scene when jecht (SPOILER)dies.

and shiva, i don't think it was so much "jecht failed, so auron let his son try." yes, jecht couldn't stop the rebirth, but i think after Jecht became Sin, he completely understood wat was going on and figured that if he "helped" so to speak his son, they could stop the rebirth. but auron wasn't really a part of the original plan, I THINK. wasn't he just supposed to look after Tidus?neways, i remember auron saying something like he tried to take Tidus to spira, but couldn't find a way or something. and so he gave up, but he figured it out once Jecht/Sin attack Dream Zanarkand that day, and decided, along with Jecht's guidance, that he would finally take him to Spira.

*gasps for air* Cheers to s-e for making confusing, philosophical, brain-buster plots *raises glass*

That's an awesome FAQ - thanks for posting it! :)

However, after reading it, it would seem to support that the DZ IS inside Sin. It doesn't exist on any other wierd plane, it is an Aeon that's in Spira, but cannot be found or reached or seen in any way. It is being summoned by Yevon from inside Sin.

So its a physical place - Auron still needed to find Sin to enter it, correct? So its a giant Aeon - where is this Aeon if not inside Sin? So Sin appears in DZ - the DZ is a creation of Yevon who is Sin - when we dream, don't we sometimes appear in our own dreams? Haven't you ever seen yourself in one? They are places where wierd things like that can happen. If the physical manifestation of Sin has nothing to do with the physical manifestation of DZ, then why is he necessary to travel between the dream and Spira? Where is Sin going to take Jecht, Auron, and Tidus between worlds, if the DZ exists in Spira? Wouldn't it make more sense for this pyrefly Aeon to exist somewhere inside Sin itself? You'd think it would be hard for a planet to not stumble across a giant dream city.

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and shiva, i don't think it was so much "jecht failed, so auron let his son try." yes, jecht couldn't stop the rebirth, but i think after Jecht became Sin, he completely understood wat was going on and figured that if he "helped" so to speak his son, they could stop the rebirth. but auron wasn't really a part of the original plan, I THINK. wasn't he just supposed to look after Tidus?neways, i remember auron saying something like he tried to take Tidus to spira, but couldn't find a way or something. and so he gave up, but he figured it out once Jecht/Sin attack Dream Zanarkand that day, and decided, along with Jecht's guidance, that he would finally take him to Spira.

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Well, Auron completely understood what was going on after Jecht became sin as well. That's why he ws killed by Yunalesca; he confronted her telling her the whole Final Aeon thing was a farce. With that knowledge, he journeyed to DZ, under a promise to look after Tidus. I think eventually he wantede to return to Spira to use his knowledge to defeat Sin for good and prevent this endless cycle. He wanted to take Tidus because he could look after him that way, but it didnt' work. Finally, Tidus got older, and Auron figured he's be a good candiate to help, I guess.

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However, after reading it, it would seem to support that the DZ IS inside Sin. It doesn't exist on any other wierd plane, it is an Aeon that's in Spira, but cannot be found or reached or seen in any way. It is being summoned by Yevon from inside Sin.

So its a physical place - Auron still needed to find Sin to enter it, correct? So its a giant Aeon - where is this Aeon if not inside Sin?

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Uhh, if you take a look at the FFX map you'll quickly notice many places it could be. Underwater for instance, protected by a big bubble.
Or on top of Mount Gagazet, where the Airship never went, or couldn't reach. it could be on an island far into the ocean, where no one has ever been.

You have to remember that just 'cause you have an Airship, doesn't mean Cid and co can take the time to cruise around the entire world, so it's not likely they'd find DZ if it was at all hidden away from major cities, which it obviously would be.

The FAQ doesn't actually support that it is inside Sin, it only says it's a physical location, that can be seen just like we can see the Aeons.

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So Sin appears in DZ - the DZ is a creation of Yevon who is Sin - when we dream, don't we sometimes appear in our own dreams? Haven't you ever seen yourself in one? They are places where wierd things like that can happen

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Yeah, but Sin wasn't dreaming. He was visiting DZ like he visited other cities. But anyway, if DZ is a physical place, and Sin is obviously a physical thing, then it doesn't make sense for Sin to attack DZ if DZ is inside himself. I mean, if the entire physical citiy was located inside him, attacking it(forgetting about the illogical assumption that he could go inside himself) wouldn't it be harming himself?

And since DZ is a physical place, and a huge one too, how come all we see inside Sin is a broken down, dead shadow of the old Zanarkand?
Yu Yevon is still summoning DZ when we are inside Sin, so why should it appear differently than when we see Tidus there in the beginning?

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If the physical manifestation of Sin has nothing to do with the physical manifestation of DZ, then why is he necessary to travel between the dream and Spira? Where is Sin going to take Jecht, Auron, and Tidus between worlds, if the DZ exists in Spira?

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You ignore the technological situation of Spira at the time when DZ is around. Look at their boats, only the Al Bheds have anything capable of going out to sea properly, most others live in tatty wooden villages due to Sin. No one can build up good technology because Sin comes and destoys everything every now and then.

So if DZ was far out at sea, or high in the sky, the only way to really get there would be by riding on Sin, who could both swim underwater, and fly. Of course, with more technology, Sin wouldn't be the only way.

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Wouldn't it make more sense for this pyrefly Aeon to exist somewhere inside Sin itself? You'd think it would be hard for a planet to not stumble across a giant dream city.

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As I explained above, I really can't say it does many any sense at all for DZ to be in Sin, and also that it is unreasonable to think people should have discovered DZ by themselves.

some1 used this in another thread, so imma bring it up:when u finally defeat yu yevon and send sin, you see the aeons and sin burst into pyreflies. well, isn't dream zanarkand also a summoning?so how come the entire planet can witness sin burst into pyreflies, but something as gigantic as a city cannot be seen?how can it exist?i don't think its a physical place. something else is up. otherwise, why can tidus travel there when he's dreaming on mt. gagazet near the fayth without using sin?

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so how come the entire planet can witness sin burst into pyreflies, but something as gigantic as a city cannot be seen?

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You should have read my post just before yours. The reason they can't see DZ is because Yu Yevon obviously didn't decide to stick it straight infront of their noses! He didn't just slap it smack bang in the middle of the populated world for everyone to see, that would be stupid.

No, he hid it somewhere where it could be left undisturbed, and Sin would take care of anyone at Sea venturing too close, as well as crushing the cities so as to keep them from doing anything.

That's why no one saw it. Not because it's invisible, but because it was far away from where anyone lived.

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how can it exist?

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The same way Bahaut, Valefor and Ifrit can exist.

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otherwise, why can tidus travel there when he's dreaming on mt. gagazet near the fayth without using sin?

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You said it yourself, he was dreaming, and didn't literally travel there.
Listen, DZ IS a physical place. It was made up of pyreflies being summoned in EXACTLY the same way as Yuna summons pyreflies to make up an Aeon. We don't take the Aeons to be invisible or "not physical", so why make DZ any different?

Besides, Square said it themselves =P

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

I recommend reading this excellent FAQ:

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/432/432338p1.html

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That is one damn good FAQ, I must say.

This is getting good , All right, I have to say that the Guide is a very good one BUTTTTT !... Is created by a bunch of discussions in a forum just like the one´s we do (and some unmarked officals facts of course), We could create one a lot more logical because that guide get dizzy in some spots.
Ok , obiously nobody in the FAQ forum even think about DZ inside of sin , so they craft their teories all around DZ ubicated in some unreachable place in Spira ( A cave ? :confused: ) .
I´try to give my point of view of what Sir bahamut said (I´m not trying to say you´re wrong, I´m just enjoying the story)
1.- We see a Water ball, we don´t see any sin, I´ve said before that It can be whatever you want to put there, you can´t said that´s is sin because you can´t see it. Auron says "w called it sin", but jecht is already sin , that is the presence of jecht for sure (And otherworld give us a link with the last battle dont´you think ?)
2.- Ok, confusing all this dream and reality Stuff. If you say Tidus is a dream , you don´t expect a psysical person or body, ok.Why do you think The faith says "You are more than a dream now that Sin touches you" (or something like that), Tidus didn´t even became real at all when sin trow him to spira, And you Can´t say that the faith are so powerfull like to dream real people , and create REAL physical locations , And what´s is my point ?... Auron also travels to the DZ in his condition of Unsent so.. is he real or not ?, we don´t really know. Putting all the theories togheter I t should sound something like "The faiths are dreaming so strong , that they really rebuilt Real zanarkand again, wait a minute... is´t a dream right... ohhh it´s so confusing "
3.- As I pointed Out, In the intro Tidus can see the transfomation Of DZ into a frozen time place with nobody, Have you seen that scene in wich Everybody running gets frozen in time , The faith appears and Say "it begins" , later you don´t see nobody else. And what about Tidus floating in the place that the last battle happens , that´s zanarkand , there´s no fact that says that Jecht being Sin can dream his own zanarkand, this is not FF9 where the Party create their own scenarios , But there are a lot of arguments to say that DZ is inside of Sin.
4.- That bouildings , well, I´ve never related to anything at first, but It seems more related to "sin have a city inside", than " wreckage from towns he wrecked in the past", you mean , the buildings spirit traps into sin ? :confused:
5.- Ok, If you say that evry single word that you said you write it down exactly from a Square official publication I would Shut my mouth, And get my airplane to find Znarkand in another place. But if you get those words from that guide , who have mixed text from Forum topics and official infomation , I Can still fighting my argument, because they know the same I know about this Story, And they are really saying what they think just like me. If you read the guide, you may noticed that the only thing that they got from Ultimania Omega Guide about sin was ".the additional explanation that Sin is formed by
gravity spells concentrating pyreflies around the core". So . I guees nowhere in that guide says "DZ is not inside Sin".

For those who are reading that guide, thanks To bahamut for post it there, they dont Agree or deny the theory, they just didn´t think about the posibility of DZ inside of sin. Read the part about DZ, and you´ll find something logical "yevon(inside of sin) summons the dream of the faith, the faith dream Zanarkand, And Zanarkand is in ... Well It should be in spira...maybe in a cave, or deep in the sea, but there´s no posibility of being in another world " And there is ... WOW I find it "Well, where it is located is explained neither in the
game, nor in the Ultimania Guides. The latter however specify that it is
indeed somewhere in Spira. Further, it could be out at sea beyond any Spiran
ship's reach. It could be underwater, for all we know. Or in a cave, the
artificial sun just being part of the summoning. It must not even remain at
one static position. " (took from the guide). That last part gives life to the theory, thanks bahamut.

There´s something good about "auron riding Sin to get to DZ", Because he knows what´s the method but he never tells where DZ is , right. He also says "Being Unsent LET ME ride sin" so, it cannot be just some place in spira... ok, lets say that is in spira, In zanarkand you can see tha stars right ?... And BINGO, nobody is trying to get out from the city !, everybody is in like their own world , there´s no spira around , that´s why the difference between "Dream Zanarkand" and Spira , If DZ is in spira , The story shouldn´t divide Spira And DZ like they were two different places, Tidus say "I get to spira"... what ?, DZ is not in spira ... That´s good for me .... What , The guide says that It´s stupid to think about another world or dimension... That´s good for me ... The last choice ???... What a bout that giant armor that the creator and summoner of that city create to live long eternally in his beloved city ?...Inside of sin is not in spira or in another world, is sinside of sin... and sin is in spira. yeahh !.
Oh ... I have a question, Why Yevon Didn´t rebuilt Zanrkand in his original place ?, Why... Maybe he build the armor to protect it forever... or maybe DZ cannot exist as a normal city in spira. Stop zayying that is in Mt. gagazet (in FFX-2 we see what is in that place, nothing) Or in a cave, being inside of sin , DZ could perfectly exist as a own world , and there´s no need to invent a secret place or something, It was in front of ours eyes all the time Lolll.

i understand that yu yevon didn't stick dz in the middle of the world becuase the would just be idiotic. but im saying is, people all the way in besaid saw sin burst into pyreflies when its all the way on the other side of the planet. if something larger than sin were to burst into pyreflies, even if it was in the ocen farther from any landmass, don't u think SOMEONE would have seen it?and i meant "how can it exist?" as a rhetorical question, lol.

which can easily be explained by refusing to believe that dream zanarkand exists in our plane/sphere :)

or that sin's pyreflies were part of zanarkand's, but I prefer to believe the first possibility^_^

I´m death of laughing with this guide :D , Read this : Jecht, a denizen of Dream Zanarkand, star player of the Zanarkand Abes,
"goes out to train at sea. He stumbles upon Sin who rests in the seas of
dream, and accidentally gets transported out of Dream Zanarkand into the
real world." What is that ? , I don´t know. Sir bahamut , I read that you help to create the guide so you can see the contradictions. In that little piece said that DZ is Real and is not, says that Sin do Exist in the DZ, and says that Jecht acidentally traveled to the REAL WORLD , that means, your theory about zanarkand being a real place AND your theoy about being impossible that sin Exist in Zanarkand, have been crushed by yourself :) , Is not Final fantasy The greatest games ever made ?

i used to think that too, that it doen't exist in this dimension, but now im not so sure. it would be plain and simple if it were in another plane, or maybe somewhere in the farplane?i mean that place is humongous.

also, who says nething about sin protecting dz?he attakced it once....and plus, in reality sin also attacked the real zanarkand once sin was done man-handling the bevelle army. so who says that sin would/is protection dz?

i have a couple theories tho...aren't there two moons for spira?or maybe thats ffix....but if there is, and dz is in THIS plane, then yu yevon could be summoning onto one of the moons or another planet...

but , and this is my favorite theory, what if he's summoning dz in that spherical water thing rite outta mt. gagazet?where the fayth are?i mean it makes a connection between the the sphere of water that attacks dz in the beginning and the one on mt. gagazet. becuase in the ending, you see that sphere of water outside of gagazet slowly decline, and small water bubbles of the dream people with it. it could be that yu yevon is summoning dz in such a small water sphere, but because of the detail and the info he needs, thats why he uses ALL those fayth?

of course, this is all if dz is a real physical place, but if i had my choice id choose the "dz exists on another plane/dimension" neday

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Ok , obiously nobody in the FAQ forum even think about DZ inside of sin , so they craft their teories all around DZ ubicated in some unreachable place in Spira ( A cave ? ) .

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Oh no, that possiblity is brought up more than frequently, but the conclusion was that it wasn't a feasible option.

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If you say Tidus is a dream , you don´t expect a psysical person or body, ok.Why do you think The faith says "You are more than a dream now that Sin touches you" (or something like that), Tidus didn´t even became real at all when sin trow him to spira, And you Can´t say that the faith are so powerfull like to dream real people , and create REAL physical locations , And what´s is my point ?... Auron also travels to the DZ in his condition of Unsent so.. is he real or not ?, we don´t really know. Putting all the theories togheter I t should sound something like "The faiths are dreaming so strong , that they really rebuilt Real zanarkand again, wait a minute... is´t a dream right... ohhh it´s so confusing "

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Let's put it this way; DZ and everyone in it are as "physically real " as Bahamut, which is what I've been trying to tell.
DZ and everything in it is made up entirely of pyreflies, just like very other summoned creature.
As such, we should be able to see DZ in the same way that we can see Bahamut.

What the Faith meant by him becoming "more than a dream" is speculation, so you can read whatever you want into that. Personally, I think the Faith were implying that while all the other "dream people" were imprisoned by the Faith and Yu Yevon(who could alter anything in DZ, including peoples opinions, as he chose), Tidus was now a person with proper free will.

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Have you seen that scene in wich Everybody running gets frozen in time , The faith appears and Say "it begins" , later you don´t see nobody else.

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I don't see the point. The Faith momentarily froze the dream, probably because they realised Tidus importance already then.

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And what about Tidus floating in the place that the last battle happens , that´s zanarkand ,there´s no fact that says that Jecht being Sin can dream his own zanarkand, this is not FF9 where the Party create their own scenarios ,

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No fact? The Farplane is plenty of proof. The Farplane is a huge cluster of pyreflies. When people go there, quite ordinary people, they think about their dead ones, and the pyreflies make them appear.

Sin IS a huge cluster of pyreflies, so if he starts thinking about Zanarkand, it would be rather odd if they DIDN'T form some sort of Zanarkand like town, no?

Anyway, you ignored my other argument here. If DZ is what you see in Sin, then where is everybody? why is it all dead and mysterious, instead of bustling with life? It would make no sense for Yu Yevon to suddenly change everything by removing all the people and making it a ghost town. Yu Yevon just wanted the best for his people.

The second argument, just so you can answer them both at once, is yet again the whole "Sin getting inside himself" thing.
We've established(I hope) that DZ is as real as Bahamut, or any other Aeon, and it's obvious that Sin is quite "real".

So how would you explain how a huge thing like Sin(which remember, could be touched, fealt, smelled, heard and attacked like any other living being) could get inside himself, and attack a town inside his own stomach?
It's just physically impossible. And please don't say "mysterious things can happen", because you might as well say "a wizard dit it" then.
FFX may include magic, but it's still bound by logic.

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But there are a lot of arguments to say that DZ is inside of Sin.

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Then I'd like to hear all of them now, if you don't mind. If you can counter the arguments I presented, AND come up wuth amny other waterproof arguments, the I'll accept the DZ inside Sin view, but if not, I can't.

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Ok, If you say that evry single word that you said you write it down exactly from a Square official publication I would Shut my mouth, And get my airplane to find Znarkand in another place. But if you get those words from that guide , who have mixed text from Forum topics and official infomation , I Can still fighting my argument, because they know the same I know about this Story, And they are really saying what they think just like me. If you read the guide, you may noticed that the only thing that they got from Ultimania Omega Guide about sin was ".the additional explanation that Sin is formed by
gravity spells concentrating pyreflies around the core". So . I guees nowhere in that guide says "DZ is not inside Sin".

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Ok, sorry if I was a bit too quick to mention the Ultimania Guide. What I DO know it says in it is that DZ is a real place, ie. something you can see with your own eyes without warping to alternate dimensions, and that it exists in Spira somewhere.

It might not say that it's not inside DZ(my bet would be they never thought of that as an option even) but the two arguments alone I presented are for me more than convincing enough to get rid of that notion.

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He also says "Being Unsent LET ME ride sin" so, it cannot be just some place in spira...

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What he means is that firstly, Sin was the only thing capable of getting to DZ(probably because it was far out at Sea or up in the sky or somewhere else man couldn't get at at that time), and secondly, he could ride with Sin because he was unsent, ie. he wouldn't be killed by the journey.

I mean, it's not like any random, living and breathing could just hitch a ride with Sin, right? They'd get killed way before that.

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If DZ is in spira , The story shouldn´t divide Spira And DZ like they were two different places, Tidus say "I get to spira"... what ?, DZ is not in spira ...

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You should realise that what we know about DZ wasn't known to Tidus until the very end of the game, practically. I mean, he thought he had timetravelled for Gods sake, so taking his word as an argument is a fallacy.

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Why Yevon Didn´t rebuilt Zanrkand in his original place ?, Why... Maybe he build the armor to protect it forever... or maybe DZ cannot exist as a normal city in spira. Stop zayying that is in Mt. gagazet (in FFX-2 we see what is in that place, nothing) Or in a cave, being inside of sin , DZ could perfectly exist as a own world , and there´s no need to invent a secret place or something, It was in front of ours eyes all the time Lolll.

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He didn't rebuild it in it's original place because all the Summoners would have to walk throught it to get to Yunalesca, which was necessary for the plan to work.

I never said it was in Mt. Gagazet, but thanks for the spoiler(I never played X-2) =P
And really, in a cave inside Sin? Sin may be big, but there's no way he's big enough to contain that entire city. And if you claim it was shrunk, well then why is Tidus the same size as normal men?

Finally, I'm not "inventing a secret place"! I would hardly called "out at sea" a secret place, would you? No, all I suggest is that it is somewhere it can't be easily reached by humans.

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but im saying is, people all the way in besaid saw sin burst into pyreflies when its all the way on the other side of the planet. if something larger than sin were to burst into pyreflies, even if it was in the ocen farther from any landmass, don't u think SOMEONE would have seen it?

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Why are you assuming it burst into pyreflies?

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Jecht, a denizen of Dream Zanarkand, star player of the Zanarkand Abes, "goes out to train at sea. He stumbles upon Sin who rests in the seas of dream, and accidentally gets transported out of Dream Zanarkand into the real world." What is that ?

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I didn't write the guide, so please don't hold me responsible for the way it was formulated.

However, I am certain that Alaistair meant "real world" as in outside of the region which was summoned.
In other words, if you consider a certain area of Spira to be the location of the summoned DZ, Sin took Jecht from that region to the region of Spira which wasn't the location of the summoning.

I discussed it a lot with Alaistair(which is why I was credited) and the mutual agreement was that.

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also, who says nething about sin protecting dz?he attakced it once....and plus, in reality sin also attacked the real zanarkand once sin was done man-handling the bevelle army. so who says that sin would/is protection dz?

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When we see Sin attacking DZ it's because Jecht wants to free Tidus. Jecht wasn't entirely under Yu Yevons control yet(the Fayth imply that it takes some time). But the obvious purpose of Sin is to protect DZ, that's for sure.

Oh, and Sin didn't attack the real Zanarkand back then. It was Bevelles weapons that crushed Zanarkand. Sin then crushed Bevelles army and Bevelle gave in immediately.

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. it could be that yu yevon is summoning dz in such a small water sphere, but because of the detail and the info he needs, thats why he uses ALL those fayth?

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Then how come Tidus is man sized? And this would also suggest Sin had the capability of shrinking himself to a tiny size, which isn't implied at all.

And to end this massive post, I have to say that DZ IS IN SPIRA!
If there's one thing which can't be argued over, that's it. Square said it themselves, and heæd be brave who went against their word.

I guess my one last argument about DZ not being in the middle of the ocean or whatever is that you said Spira lacks the technology to travel to these places now because of Sin and lack of Machina, and technology lost and whatnot.

Well, true, that's NOW. The fayth have been dreaming for 1000 YEARS. And when Sin was first created. along with DZ, Spira was filled with highly advanced technology. Look at Zanarkand - it looks like a space city, with all sorts of tech, and in its war with Bevelle, they considered BEVELLE the technically advanced ones. Bevelle's cloister of trials? All sorts of technolgy. So when DZ was first created, long before all the machina was lost and technology destroyed, (because this did not happen instantanously), things like the Airship were commonplace. I find it hard to believe and entire city could exist and nobody would notice. Just think - it would be hard for us to believe a bustling metropolis exists beneath earth's oceans on our own planet; just because we haven't explored our entire oceans doesn't mean evidence of such a society would be non-existant. And Spira was much more advanced than we are.

Also, about the water thing - I think that's also a great idea. I always thought that had somethign to do with it, because it exists in the middle of the fayth on Gagazet, and towers into the sky. When Sin is defeated, the water bubble breaks, releasing droplets containing the images of everyone who was part of DZ, INCLUDING one of TIDUS. They wouldn't have shown that for no reason. As for Tidus being man-sized, well he was always man-sized, but before existed in the magical realm of the sphere and now in the land of Spira. Porportinally to his surroundings, he's the same. And I don't think its a stretch of the imagination to believe "because wierd things like that happen" etc because the people in DZ ARE NOT REAL. Aeon or not, they never existed, they are created by others. Think: Aeons like Shiva or Bahamut USED to be real people just like Anima was Seymour's mother; you can talk to their fayths. The DZ was created from nothing, just the collective will of Yevon and the memories of the people who once lived there. Tidus was a generation of Zanarkarians that never really existed in Spira, they were dream children. The people in the DZ are the physical manifestations of other people's consciousness. Tidus might look, feel, and act, real, but sorry Pinnochio, you're not a real boy. Therefore, the laws of physics that apply in DZ are those of a dream world, where Sin can exist if the fayth dream about him and the physical amount of space which this world takes up within Spira OR Sin could in fact be very small. Even as small as a water bubble. ;)

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So when DZ was first created, long before all the machina was lost and technology destroyed, (because this did not happen instantanously), things like the Airship were commonplace. I find it hard to believe and entire city could exist and nobody would notice.

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Firstly, I'd reckon Yu Yevon wrecked lots of havock with Sin before summoning DZ and programming Sin to periodically wreck havoc.
And there had been a war, so people were probably more busy rebuilding stuff than going on adventure trips and randomly bumping into DZ.

Secondly, the greates technological city, Bevelle, had sworn themselves as priests of Yevon so as to avoid his wrath, so I doubt anyone from Bevelle would be allowed to make statements that hurt Yu Yevon in any way. So even if some random Bevelle citisen flew out and spotted it in the ocean, when he came back to tell, he was probably ignored and imprisoned.

Which brings me to my next point: if someone came back home from a boat trip raving about having seen Zanarkand(I'm guessing that Sin would have fully destroyed machina before people started forgetting what it looked like and all), who would believe him? In everyones eyes, Zanarkand had been flattened to the ground in the war. He'd probably be ignored, just like we would probably ignore someone who claimed to have seen Atlantis.

So with Sin lurking about, Bevelle being Yu Yevons slaves, and everyone thinking Zanarkand was destroyed, I don't think the likelyhood of the city being found and made public are very great.

As for DZ being in the bubble, I'll grant that it is certainly possible given the circumstances, but I personally believe DZ to be "lifesize" simply because I don't like to assume more than absolutely necessary.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Why are you assuming it burst into pyreflies?

When we see Sin attacking DZ it's because Jecht wants to free Tidus. Jecht wasn't entirely under Yu Yevons control yet(the Fayth imply that it takes some time). But the obvious purpose of Sin is to protect DZ, that's for sure.

Oh, and Sin didn't attack the real Zanarkand back then. It was Bevelles weapons that crushed Zanarkand. Sin then crushed Bevelles army and Bevelle gave in immediately.

And to end this massive post, I have to say that DZ IS IN SPIRA!
If there's one thing which can't be argued over, that's it. Square said it

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1)because dz is a summon. he's summoning dz. what do u think he's using to summon dz with?the dream, of the fayth.pyreflies are part of the act of summoning. he can't magically create a physical city without something.
2)what happend was zanarkand got destroyed by bevelle's army. in order to get revenge, yu yevon created sin wiht the fayth that were people from the original zanarkand. sin then destroyed zanarkand, and
then sin chased and annihilated the bevellian army. i think maechen says it on either gagazet or somewhere.but im almost positive he says it somewhere:)
3)just outta curiosity, when/where did square say this?was it in the game?or was it some sort of publication?

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1)because dz is a summon. he's summoning dz. what do u think he's using to summon dz with?the dream, of the fayth.pyreflies are part of the act of summoning. he can't magically create a physical city without something.

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Oh, I know DZ is made of pyreflies, I always said that. What I mean is, DZ didn't have to burst into a colourful explosion to the same extent Sin did.
I mean, look at Tidus. He was part of DZ and he just faded away.

But even if we do assume DZ burst into pyreflies, well, if DZ was on the other side of the planet, they wouldn't be able to see it anyway.
I mean, even if there was a nuclear explosion in Australia, no one here in Norway(where I live, the other side of the planet) would be able to see it.

Sure people all the way back in Besaid saw Sin, but Sin was high up in the sky for one, making him far more visible, and of course he may have been on the same side of the planet as Besaid.

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2)what happend was zanarkand got destroyed by bevelle's army. in order to get revenge, yu yevon created sin wiht the fayth that were people from the original zanarkand. sin then destroyed zanarkand, and
then sin chased and annihilated the bevellian army. i think maechen says it on either gagazet or somewhere.but im almost positive he says it somewhere

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Actually, you may be right here. Sin may have destroyed what was left of Zanarkand before he was in control of Yu Yevon, but regardless, Yu Yevon obviously uses Sin to protect DZ later on.

I mean, Yu Yevon is only interested in keeping DZ summoned, not in making the Spirans suffer, so the only reason for him to keep Sin around is so he can protect both himself and DZ from being found, by keeping the world at a primitive level.

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3)just outta curiosity, when/where did square say this?was it in the game?or was it some sort of publication?

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It's in the Ultimania Omega guide, a japanese only guide, a big book including everything there is to know about the game, put together by Square themselves. They give away a lot of information about the plot too, which is where this has come from.

lol. i actually read that guide A LONG time ago, but i always wondered where they got their info from. it was kinda strange. neways, about what maechen says about the war...

The Destruction of Zanarkand

Maechen
"There is a legend, you know."
"Just before the horrible Sin appeared..."
"a terrible war raged between Bevelle and Zanarkand."
"When the armies of Bevelle attacked Mount Gagazet, they heard a song echoing across the snowy slopes."
""'Tis a song from an otherworld," they said. The soldiers panicked and ran."
"And then, as if to pursue the retreating armies, Sin appeared!"
"Some time later, scouts from Bevelle braved the mountain."
"On the other side, they witnessed the ruins that had been Zanarkand."
"The city destroyed. Not a single soul left standing. Gone!"
"In its place, a multitude of the fayth had gathered on Gagazet."
"They were singing a song."
"It's the song we now call the "Hymn of the Fayth.""
"And that, as they say, is that."
"Well...maybe not all of it."

that lil bit is from final fantasy worlds apart. they have the entire script of both ffx and ffix.

oh, and i was just assuming that dz would burst into pyreflies because its a summon. tidus didn't spontaneously combust, although it would've been hilarious, becuase he himself isn't the actual summon. he's just a sort of tool, or detail. he's not the summon.

i dno't kno. square is awesome at letting us think for ourselves, lol. im sticking with my bubble theory tho, lol. i mean, sin does stop by near the end to "visit" tidus, and possibly to protect dz. plus, they do have that fmv where u see the fayth on gagazet and the "fountain" and the bubble sphere where it cuold be. plus the ending fmv of it descending. i take that as important.

hey this mite not have nething 2 do with this, but what's the "last mission" of ffx-2?isn't that in some tower in gagazet? :confused: (i've never played ffx-2.

That script bit doesn't say Sin attacked Zanarkand though. I'm not sure, but I guess it's a small matter really.

As for Tidus, you could consider him the equivalent of Bahamuts big toe.
If Bahamut exploded, so would his big toe, so I reckon that if DZ exploded, so should Tidus.

yah, good point. i woulda laughed so hard if yuna was crying and he just spontaneously combusted with pyreflies. i woulda felt bad, but it woulda been worth it,rofl.

neways, the maechen bit doesn't make it clear, but i think it implies that sin destroyed whatever was left of zanarkand.

or another place it could be is where the "chasm" is in the calm lands....isn't penance from there?maybe penance is dz's protector?i don't really kno, im just brainstorming. :rolleyes2 then again, i guess it can't be since people would be able to see it so clearly

Well, I learned something this days, Unless something about this story plot is especifically written in the game , Is´not true or false, just a Theory (and thanks to square we´ll never know),there will be always people that agree and disagree, all right.

1.- There are some relations about the Buildings you can see at the top of Sin Body , You can see the same kind in the Ruins of zanarkand (at the intro) , and the same buildings behind Jecht at the last fight.

2.- Repeat, Nobody Knows what is inside that huge water ball, Was jecht ?, was Sin ?, Was another dream ? was the Sin escence but no body ?, nobody knows , so , Sin Body´s atacking his own body is not an argument.And that thing Was not only Atackin Zanarkand , was getting tidus out.

3.- For those who say that DZ don´t fit into Sin Little stomach , go and see the last FMV that you can see in the theather at luca (it´s call getting trough) , And you´ll see the scene in wich Sin open some kind of portal and swallow the ship, what you see when you get in is actually an inmense .. I mean HUUUUUGE Place , you don´t see an beast inside, you dont see the flesh and bones, You see an entire universe create inside of sin , And you cannot say "well , sin transport them to anotherworld " , nu doubt, that is inside sin, Sin is a big Universe that fly .

4.- Sir bahamut, You say that Jecht Can create his own zanarkand just by thinking about it inside of sin , just like other people do in the farplane. Well, If you remenber, Tidus tried to think about Jecht and he didn´t appear because he wasn´t dead, If people that are not dead don´t appear , that also means that jecht can´t create another DZ with his memories , because at the moment of the fight DZ still exist Right ?, And please don't say "mysterious things can happen", because you might as well say "a wizard dit it" then, Jecht Isn´t a faith to summon a new DZ, and that´s the City we are talking about no other thing, So, There´s no other explanation to found DZ in there.

5.- About the DZ that appears inside of Sin while you´re fighting Jecht, Yeah, You can´t see anybody there because there were no close up to the city , So, here is another thing that can´t be right or wrong , There´s is the city but nobody can´t say "there´s people , there´s no people", but that´s without any doubt Zanarkand..

6.- About Auron Riding Sin, that sounds pretty ambiguous, Imagine Auron in the back of sin saying "hey you, take me to DZ", And you´ll tell "Jecht take him to there" ... and I will say another thing and blablabla... a a bunch of things that are not explained in the game , god, I would like to find something about that Auron Trip. But the Tidus transport scene don´t looks like they get in the back of that huge ball of water and get a ride , for me more like tidus being launched outside of the body, there´s no enough information in the game that explains the whole process so, we can´t use that words from sauron anymore unless we find a clear and direct relation.

7.- And I Want you to Answer why nobody have never get out from DZ?, I read about Yevon reset process (officially published in the ultimania guide ), and it says textually - In
the Ultimania Guides, it is mentioned that Yu Yevon "resets" individual DZ
inhabitants who start to question their one-city world - . Ok, DZ Is a One city World ah ?, very interesting , why they have all the technology but they can´t leave the place, and I know you´re going to say "yevon controls them mentally so they don´t think about geting out"... But I want to know about that "ONE CITY WORLD " official phrase.

Keep posting everithing that can agree or disagree this theory, and join the discussion.

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1.- There are some relations about the Buildings you can see at the top of Sin Body , You can see the same kind in the Ruins of zanarkand (at the intro) , and the same buildings behind Jecht at the last fight.

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Perhaps they got there from when he attacked Zanarkand in the intro then.

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2.- Repeat, Nobody Knows what is inside that huge water ball, Was jecht ?, was Sin ?, Was another dream ? was the Sin escence but no body ?, nobody knows , so , Sin Body´s atacking his own body is not an argument.And that thing Was not only Atackin Zanarkand , was getting tidus out.

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Oh, it was definitely Sin inside there.

Firstly, let's agree the opening wasn't a dream or anything, it was reality. It was something that actually happened in DZ. If not, how come Tidus actually does get out? No, it was not a dream, it was reality.

Secondly, it must have been Sin, it doesn't make sense if it was anyone else. I mean, for one, we see him. We clearly see the same huge monster we see in the rest of the game. I mean, solely on the premise that there are no other ridiculously huge Sin-like monsters who can float around in bubbles in DZ besides Sin, it has to be Sin.
Also, Auron even says: "We called it Sin".

So let's see, we have a REALLY huge monster(not just the essence, unless you can find something in the game that implies that) that looks like Sin, in a bubble which we only otherwise see Sin doing, in a place where it is stated only Sin could find/be, and it is implied to have been nicknamed Sin. On top of that, we are told later in the game that Jecht(Sin) attacked DZ to get Tidus out, so Tidus could have a real life.

So really, it's perfectly obvious that it must have been none other than Sin who attacked DZ in the intro.

Of course, let's assume for a moment it wasn't Sin. That would imply Square throwed in Sins identical twin just for the very opening, just to confuse us, and not give us any hint that it wasn't the "real" Sin.
No, that wouldn't make any sense at all. Of course, you can try and convince me otherwise.

The simplest solution is always the best, so the opening was real, and it was Sin who attacked. Nothing at all implies it is anything but the real Sin.

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3.- For those who say that DZ don´t fit into Sin Little stomach , go and see the last FMV that you can see in the theather at luca (it´s call getting trough) , And you´ll see the scene in wich Sin open some kind of portal and swallow the ship, what you see when you get in is actually an inmense .. I mean HUUUUUGE Place , you don´t see an beast inside, you dont see the flesh and bones, You see an entire universe create inside of sin , And you cannot say "well , sin transport them to anotherworld " , nu doubt, that is inside sin, Sin is a big Universe that fly .

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Oh, Sin is big all right. And you don't see flesh and bones because he's made up of pyreflies.
But Zanarkand is HUGE. I mean, Sin IS big, but he's not a flying universe for sure.

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4.- Sir bahamut, You say that Jecht Can create his own zanarkand just by thinking about it inside of sin , just like other people do in the farplane. Well, If you remenber, Tidus tried to think about Jecht and he didn´t appear because he wasn´t dead, If people that are not dead don´t appear , that also means that jecht can´t create another DZ with his memories , because at the moment of the fight DZ still exist Right ?, And please don't say "mysterious things can happen", because you might as well say "a wizard dit it" then, Jecht Isn´t a faith to summon a new DZ, and that´s the City we are talking about no other thing, So, There´s no other explanation to found DZ in there.

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"The little fellows are responsible for a few fantastic phenomena."
"Visions of the past, spheres, fiends--these are all the pyreflies' doing."

That's what Maechen says. The pyreflies in the farplane are all from dead people, so it's natural that those pyreflies will form shapes of dead people, when reacting to peoples memories of them.

Sin is different. Just look at the description of pyreflies. They react to thoughts, memories, emotion and shape themselves after that.
You don't have to be dead for the pyreflies to form you(or else you'd never be able to summon Aeons, or Sin for that matter wouldn't exist).

So inside Sin, the pyreflies react to Jechts thoughts, memories and emotions, and make out a fading Zanarkand.
So it's perfectly logical for us to see a fading Zanarkand in him.

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5.- About the DZ that appears inside of Sin while you´re fighting Jecht, Yeah, You can´t see anybody there because there were no close up to the city , So, here is another thing that can´t be right or wrong , There´s is the city but nobody can´t say "there´s people , there´s no people", but that´s without any doubt Zanarkand..

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No close up to the city? The whole city was one bustling metropolis, and Tidus says the city never sleeps. Yet we never see anything resembling intelligence. The buildings are all worn down, fading, unreal, nothing like the Zanarkand we see in the opening.

Honestly, take a look at the opening Zanarkand, then walk through Sin. it's perfectly obvious they're not the same thing. I mean, for one, Sins Zanarkand is stuffed with monsters, while Tidus says monsters were a rare occurance in Zanarkand. Secondly, there are pyreflies all over the place, something you won't see in Zanarkand. Thirdly, they just look completely different!

The Zanarkand you see in Sin is a ghost town, a fading dream, misty and abandoned. The Zanarkand we see in the opening is huge and bustling, technological, full of people and not fading at all.

Oh, and I just realised another strong argument against DZ being inside Sin. Why would Yu Yevon put the city he's trying to keep alive and protected inside the creature which is destoryed uttelry every now and then?

I mean, the Final Aeon does actually defeat Sin before molding with Yu Yevon to become a new Sin, so DZ would be destroyed.
And since Yu Yevon had planned himself for Sin to be destroyed every now and then it wouldn't make sense for him to put DZ inside Sin.

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bout Auron Riding Sin, that sounds pretty ambiguous, Imagine Auron in the back of sin saying "hey you, take me to DZ", And you´ll tell "Jecht take him to there" ..

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Firstly, Jecht as Sin visited DZ often so Auron wouldn't have to ask him or anything.
Secondly, since Jecht wanted to free Tidus, and he still knew who Auron was, he probably willingly brought him there to help get Tidus out.

Where Auron is "sitting" when Sin takes him is irrelevant, but we do know Auron rode with Sin.

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But the Tidus transport scene don´t looks like they get in the back of that huge ball of water and get a ride , for me more like tidus being launched outside of the body, there´s no enough information in the game that explains the whole process so, we can´t use that words from sauron anymore unless we find a clear and direct relation.

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Of course we can use Aurons words! We can't ignore them simply it's not easy imagining him riding with Sin. Square still put them in the game, so we can't ignore them.

Anyway, we know Tidus got swallowed by Sin(that's why we see him swimming around in the weird looking Zanarkand, which is of course the one inside Sin). That's another thing by the way:

First we see a bustling Zanarkand. Then Tidus gets swallowed by Sin, and then we see the same Zanarkand we see when we're inside Sin later.

Putting two and two together I think it looks obvious that the real DZ was not inside Sin.

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why they have all the technology but they can´t leave the place, and I know you´re going to say "yevon controls them mentally so they don´t think about geting out"... But I want to know about that "ONE CITY WORLD " official phrase.

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Not sure what you mean. Yes, Yu Yevon only summoned DZ and probably some immediate surroundings, he didn't summon an entirely new world or universe. That would be outside of even his powers.

So he summoned that one city, and made sure everyone stayed inside by mind controlling them, as is stated in the Ultimania Guide.
Nothing more to say on the subject really.

To sum up, the simplest solution is almost always the correct one. In this case, assuming DZ is inside Sin requires a whole lot of imagination and speculation, while assuming it isn't in Sin brings up no problems whatsoever.

1.- Ok, I know that FMV did happen in the reality.I can´t say that Sin is the waterball , For me, is more Jecht with the aeon braska form than anything else, We can´t see what is in the waterball, but if you keep insisting that it´s sin, welll, thats your opinion.
2.- Sir bahamut , Obiously "iniside Sin" is an anormal place, like another dimension , because you can´t see limits around , when you fight sin you can see that he is not that huge, so , DZ can perfectly fit inside of sin . If you noticed it, You travel from the Nucleo to the DZ that I´m talkin about to fight JEcht, So, If DZ is not psysically inside of sin, The portal is in the nucleo , the problem is that you dont believe that is the real DZ.
3.- Ok, When I say DZ, I´m talling about tha city that you SEE in the bottom of the fight with jecht, I´m Not talkin about "the city of Dying Dreams" or "The tower of dead" , You Can´t walk trough DZ in this part of the game , you can only see it down there , that´s what I meaned , I´ve said about a million of times, DZ is only at the bottom like an image, when you fight Jecht.
4.- Ok, Magical Pirflyes from sin are giving special power to jecht to create his own zanarkand around, but... why when we defeat him, why when he vanish to the farplane , DZ still there at the bottom ?, That DZ don´t disapear when you defeat Jecht, And I find a terrible mistake on the game when the whole party appeared in the airship outside sin like magic (probaly the faith put them there, I don´t know it isn´t exlained) , .... Have you seen that when yuna is performing the sending , Sin is finished in 2 explosions ?, not in one.
5.- There´s no part in the game that explains if the atack that we see in the "blitzball FMV" was the first one , so , we know that The people in DZ dont´s know anything about the existence of something called Sin , as we see in tidus reaction. so, you´re expeculating saying that sin go there many times and no atack the city or nobody ever see it, And don´t say anything about jecht because there were many other Sin´s before, Sin getting near DZ is something non-explained int the game, and the theoory that Jecht acidentally touched sin when it was sleeping in the water is just so simple.
6.- Yeah, The myghty ultimania guide says that DZ is A "one City WOrld" , so, there are 3 options, DZ is in the bottom of the sea ( :confused: ) DZ is in another dimension, or DZ is inisde of sin.

i got a couple of questions:

1)why does auron say "we called it Sin?"i mean that's past tense. isn't it still called sin?why the past tense then?

2)how come sin "creates", in a sense, a different "dimension" or place, so to speak once he's defeated?you clearly enter something different than just a giant floatind demon. you enter something...more. i don't kno. wouldn't that raise the question that dz could be in another plane?or did we solve, that already?lol

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For me, is more Jecht with the aeon braska form than anything else, We can´t see what is in the waterball, but if you keep insisting that it´s sin, welll, thats your opinion.

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Wee do see what's in the waterball. We see a friggin huge, Sinlike monster. Since there's no record of any other such monster, and it would be ridiculous to think Square threw one in to confuse us, it has to be Sin. Not my opinion. Fact.

And Braskas Final Aeon form? Wasn't NEARLY that huge. The waterball we see contains a monster that literally dwarves the party. But Braskas Final Aeon form is only around two or three times as tall as Tidus.
Just look at the FMV again, and compare it to Braskas Final Aeon.
Besides, one thing we DO see in the bubble is many eyes on the huge head, something definitely not present on BFA.

Really, take a look at the opening FMV, you might be surprised at how much we see.

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Obiously "iniside Sin" is an anormal place, like another dimension , because you can´t see limits around , when you fight sin you can see that he is not that huge, so , DZ can perfectly fit inside of sin

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You can't see limits around because he's made up of pyreflies, and they make up the images we see, including the apparently limitless skies.
You have to assume there's another dimensions inside Sin.

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3.- Ok, When I say DZ, I´m talling about tha city that you SEE in the bottom of the fight with jecht, I´m Not talkin about "the city of Dying Dreams" or "The tower of dead" , You Can´t walk trough DZ in this part of the game , you can only see it down there , that´s what I meaned , I´ve said about a million of times, DZ is only at the bottom like an image, when you fight Jecht.

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So I suppose you'd suggest we can't hear anything from the city that never sleeps or detect any motion at all down there from flashing lights because it had been temporarily suspended?

And think of this(you ignored this argument last post): Tidus is in DZ. Then he's swallowed by Sin(he's swallowed, not spit out, or else he should be flying in midair and landing in "the real world", not swimming around in a city) and you see him in the place you fight BFA.

It's clear that they are seperated. The Zanarkand you see in the beginning and end inside Sin are quite visibly seperated from the huge flashy Zanarkand. In the opening, Tidus even flows around as if the whole place was overflown, clearly not the case.

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Ok, Magical Pirflyes from sin are giving special power to jecht to create his own zanarkand around, but... why when we defeat him, why when he vanish to the farplane , DZ still there at the bottom ?, That DZ don´t disapear when you defeat Jecht

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Because Jecht wasn't dead yet. He didn't die until he was sent, just like Auron stayed alive until he was sent.

As for how long it took for Sin to explode, take in mind that he's REALLY big, so it probably wasn't like sending any random deas guy.

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so, you´re expeculating saying that sin go there many times and no atack the city or nobody ever see it

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Ok, I should have specified. Sin as Jecht went to DZ a lot. This is stated in the game. He rested there a lot, as he missed the place. This is even stated in the Ultimania as well as the game.
Obviously no one saw him, as he wouldn't want to show himself, would he?

By the way, this presents an even better argument. We are told that Sin visits DZ often, as he misses the place(confirmed in Ultimania). He goes there and stays in the seas outside it, which is why Jecht met him while fishing.
If DZ is inside himself, why is it implied that he has to travel to get there?

And another, it is made clear that Jecht touched Sin. So if DZ was inside Sin, how could he touch Sin in that way? Sin inside Sin?
And I'm afraid assuming Square meant to say he touched Braskas Final Aeon won't cut it.

The game says he touched Sin and there's no reason to think the games lying.

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Yeah, The myghty ultimania guide says that DZ is A "one City WOrld" , so, there are 3 options, DZ is in the bottom of the sea ( ) DZ is in another dimension, or DZ is inisde of sin.

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Whoah, whoah. 3 options? I told you before, and I'll say it again: look at the FFX world map. Mark out all the locations where DZ could be where it wouldn't be noticeable by people. I can assure you that there are FAR more than 3 possibilities.

There are literally hundreds of places it could be just in the ocean somewhere. Then there's underneath the ocean as you mentioned, here there are thousands of possibilities. Then there's high in the sky, like a floating island maybe. Then there's on high mountains, or in deep valleys covered by mountains. Then there's inside massive caves.

MANY more than 3 options.

But look:

The theory that DZ is inside Sin requires these assumptions:

1) It wasn't Sin that attacked DZ in the opening FMV as is implied by both the image of the beast, Auron calling it "Sin", the later plot as "Sin" freed Tidus.
One has to assume that it was another massive Sin-like monster which appeared seemingly out of nowhere.
You must agree with me that it is MUCH simpler saying that it was Sin itself who attacked, right?

2) Yu Yevon put the thing he was trying to protect inside a creature he had planned to let get destroyed regularly(you ignored this argument previously by the way).
You must agree that Yu Yevon would be pretty stupid to put DZ inside something that would destroyed on a regular basis, right?

3) That the area inside Sin is another plane/dimension, or contains another plane/dimension where DZ exists.
You must agree that it is much simpler to state that DZ simply exists in the real world, in comparison to making up another dimension for it to be in, right?

Really, looking at it from the simples point of view, it is obvious that Sin attacked DZ, DZ is not inside Sin, and that the Zanarkand we see in Sin is a result pf pyreflies forming Jechts thoughts.

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1)why does auron say "we called it Sin?"i mean that's past tense. isn't it still called sin?why the past tense then?

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I think he's just being reflective over him, jecht and Braska. They called Sin on their journey, hence the past tense.
But regardless, the implications are there: the monster we see is called Sin, and there's only one Sin we know of in the game, and that Sin ain't the same as BFA.

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2)how come sin "creates", in a sense, a different "dimension" or place, so to speak once he's defeated?you clearly enter something different than just a giant floatind demon.

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What do you mean, when he's defeated?

When we enter Sin, it doesn't look like we entered a flying demon, that's right, because of the pyreflies! The pyreflies make up the image we see inside Sin.

Assuming it is the pyreflies that decieve us is far more likely than an alternate dimensions. At least, it's much simpler.

Mr Sir bahamut , You´re forgeting something very important, no matter how much do you think DZ is not inside sin , the only time you see DZ is inside of sin, an that´s is, There´s no prove that Jecht creates that zanarkand, no proves that DZ is in another place in spira, and when i say PROVE I refers to something specifically seen or read in the game. If we continue to speculate about theories or relating this with that , this topic is going to be never ending. As far as I know, Seeing a Zanarkand inside of sin is the closer clue that that the game give to us about DZ ubication, there´s is no part in the game in wich somebody even ask where is DZ ubicated, Auron knows but he ain´t talk too much. Sir bahamut , your arguments are very good but are based in your ability to relate facts and opinions, when there comes to images and words, there´s no argument that can deny that the only DZ that we see in the entire game is ubicated inside sin, don´t matter who the hell created , because that´s not explained in the game , Jecht created ? , who said that, where is written ?. And the DZ that we see when the faith magically send tidus in trip dreams are not usable , becuase the way to get there is not show. I even believe more about that theory of the Waterfall that transform in a ball of water with the images of the people in zanarkand than in your thery about a "secret place in Spira", that´s totally made out. Please, base your counter theory in things that can be seen or read specifically in the game, DZ can be seen in the game , Jecht creating it not, anybody saying something about it, no.

what i got the impression of sin being in DZ

heres what i think its verry logical

in the game is said: Yu yevon KEEPS summoning zanarkand
so therefore zanarkand keeps being destroyed.

next point: Sin and Yu yevon... keeps summoning a dream zanarkand and a dream sin(how yu yevon saw or however) so therefore when Auron says we called it sin its past tense because it is the sin from thousand years destroying the thousand year old city

wwhat do u think happens when auron and tidus leave sin zanarkand isnt all nice and pretty !!!!! yu yevon re summons it

Um yeah ive played thru the game several times i think i know what im talking about... i think who ever is posting the info from that book its a bunch of fanfic all you gotta do is understand the dialouge and OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE ZANARKAND BEHIND BRASKAS FINAL AEON(JECHT)

The only DZ we see isn't only inside Sin, that's only your opinion, nothing more nothing less. We see what appears to a very dreamlike Zanarkand under Jecht. The only DZ we see which we KNOW is DZ is the DZ we see in the opening, and in those films at Seymours house.

No there's no proof that Jecht creates that Zanarkand, no proof that DZ is hidden somewhere else in Spira, but there's no proof it's inside Sin either, because as I said, there's a perfectly logical alternate explanation. There's not any proof on where DZ is, they don't even tell us in Ultimania.

Yes, my arguments are based on using logic and relating facts, but what's wrong with that? What good is it that we see a Zanarkand inside Sin when it would be completely illogical for Sin getting inside himself to attack it?

I believe Square follow logic and common sense, and because of this(and the other arguments mentioned) make it clear, at least in my eyes, that it is quite illogical for DZ to be inside Sin. Since there is then a perfectly good alternate explanation for the Zanarkand we see inside Sin, which doesn't create all sorts of logical contradictions, that is definitely a better explanation.

You can ignore my arguments on the basis that I'm not providing an alternate image of Zanarkand, but the fact remains that my arguments show that DZ inside Sin is ILLOGICAL and quite silly. If you can't face up to that(which seems to be the case), then that's your own problem.

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in the game is said: Yu yevon KEEPS summoning zanarkand
so therefore zanarkand keeps being destroyed.

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That doesn't make any sense at all. If Yu Yevon keeps summoning DZ is keeps getting destroyed? How about Yu Yevon keeps summonging DZ no matter what, period. That doesn't imply anything about the destruction of the city.

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next point: Sin and Yu yevon... keeps summoning a dream zanarkand and a dream sin(how yu yevon saw or however) so therefore when Auron says we called it sin its past tense because it is the sin from thousand years destroying the thousand year old city

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Sin is not a dream.

And just because Sin has been around for a thousand years, doesn't mean he should use past tense. I mean, people still call it Sin, even one thousand years after he was made. He sort of implies that people stopped calling him Sin.

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Um yeah ive played thru the game several times i think i know what im talking about... i think who ever is posting the info from that book its a bunch of fanfic all you gotta do is understand the dialouge and OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE ZANARKAND BEHIND BRASKAS FINAL AEON(JECHT)

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I've played through the game several times too, so I think I know what I'm talking about too.
And it's not a fanfic. Do a Google Search for Ultimania Omega Guide and you'll quickly realise it IS in fact official Square stuff.

Anyway, I won't "open my eyes and see Zanarkand" until you or Wilder can counter my arguments that show it to be illogical. If you won't, on the basis that "doesn't matter how good your arguments are, we still see a Zanarkand in Sin" then I'll take that as a victory on my part.

Let me put it this way:

There are two explanations for the Zanarkand we see inside Sin.

1) The Zanarkand we see is in fact DZ.
2) The Zanarkand we see is a result of pyreflies reacting the Jechts memories and thoughts(perfectly plausible, logical and possible).

The first explanation gives way to several logical contradictions as well as baseless assumptions.
The second explanation causes no problems whatsoever.

Since DZ is still free to be located anywhere else in Spira, the second explanation is the best.

yu yevon is inside sin yu yevon summons dream zanarkand... ject does not... hmmmmm.. yu yevon is inside sin I WONDER WHERE Dream ZANARKAND IS

no where in the game does it say that jecht is yu yevon. Auron: Sin is Jecht. Auron does not say Yu Yevon is Jecht.

U make it sound like you havent played the game or at least listen to the dialouge. Even if you have im pretty sure ur wrong

im sorry theres no "Physical Evidence" in a Fantasy Game.

In fact, This is a game, a especially well made one, but is a game where anything can happens and it´s no atached to real world rules so, It´s very difficult to prove somethings like this.

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There are two explanations for the Zanarkand we see inside Sin.

1) The Zanarkand we see is in fact DZ.
2) The Zanarkand we see is a result of pyreflies reacting the Jechts memories and thoughts(perfectly plausible, logical and possible).

The first explanation gives way to several logical contradictions as well as baseless assumptions.
The second explanation causes no problems whatsoever.

Since DZ is still free to be located anywhere else in Spira, the second explanation is the best

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There are some very good points in Sir bahamut theory that makes DS inside of sin weak, but then it´s seems that in every FF game there´s an incredible theory about a part of the history unsolved and a "realistic" theory that counter it. Let´s put an example, about what happen to tidus at the end, He Vanished, the dream is over, and at the end some images of him raising in the water again, all that the plot want us the make us believe was deny by a single image, then was FF-X2, I havent played FF-X2 to the end but the spoilers are just so strongs about the deception , that I already know that tidus Is back with yuna even when I never touched the game. But what would have hapenned if Square people have decided to let the story like that ?, Inmedialty a lot of theories about tidus death and a lot of counter with all kind of relations with this and that , But what ?, Square decided to let tidus live and there are people enough strong to say "I Want Tidus dead and he is going To remain Dead so, I´m going to ignore FFX-2, Because tidus Is dead and I don´t want to see him anymore, I want FF-X ending be the ending", What ??... My argument or mr Bahamauth argument would have been destroyed with the simple fact of DZ existing after all that disaster, but it´s not, They put it there for that, And that was the intention of tidus in FFX, have you played FF VIII ? ( If you don´t Spoilers ahead) I´m still believing that Rinoa is ultimecia , bcause they put it there for that , But if they want , they can make a sequel and say tha Ultimecia is squall himself, no matter how few sense it have , they are the creators... I´ve thinking that we trying to prove or disaprove the theories think about a lot of things that square didn´t realize in the making, The seem to laugh when people desperate e-mail them with questions about made theories, R-U is an amazing ad for FFVIII it makes me play the game one more times, no matter if it´s real or not, for me sounds very logical to me, let´s back to the topic.

Sir bahamut , if we get so logical there are going to be parts in the game that wouldn´t fit, and there´s when magical answers appears from the nowhere made up by people analize. For Example, You say it´s ilogical that Sin is inside of sin , that not sound so ilogical for me as "why Sin would atack DZ ?", now that sounds ilogical but Square show it like that And I have To Ask why ? right ?, Why Tidus can be in is psysical state in spyra and be send to DZ by the faith staying in spira at the same time , in this part you beginn thinking a bout the faith being so powerfull so he show images in the mind of tidus, and in the next post I would say But the faith say "you´re not dreaming, you´re a dream" and this conversation would be never ending, so let´s froget it, Why if DZ is a dream It´s like real , then it was created, Noo, square think abou it and said, well , letñs maje Yevon summons it for ral, Right , the problem ended. Why sauron as unsent people can make it aliva and don´t become a fiend like other people, Square thought about it , let´s say that the people who have some mission or strong links to the world can make it , RighT , that explains it all !!! (Just like that movie "ghost" , It´s so romantic :( ) .
Think about it, why they would create the most important location in the entire game and don´t give it a space , Zanarkands ruins , I´m not talking a bout that, If DZ is a dream i´should not exist !, if it´s a psycical location , WHERE IT IS !, If Square not gave a physycal location to DZ that´s a ugly detail, because in some part of the game , i have to airship and I have all the time of the world to find that location no matter how is it ( and being that big as you say DZ would produced an incredible amount of light around it, it would be able to see from the sky very easily), And in this part you´ll be thinking a bout Clouds, and deep sea, and mountains so high , and islands and whatever your imagination can create, but you got to acept that square thought even in locations that don´t have nothing to do with the plot, And DZ is in the FIRST FMV , it´s extremely important ! , it´s almost imposible nobody tought about giving it a location, and I´ll say it again , Or is a dream that´s not Physical, or is inside of sin, and you´re going to say , "it can be anywhere", no in this kind of games in wich everything is so planned , FF is specialized in locations , in secret places to discover, in the plot , not in leave the most important city in the entire game in a " unknow place all the game" . About jecht dreaming his own DZ , well... I don´t why you keep on that when it´s not written in any place of the game and when the only argument that you have is the Farplane , if you want to continue saying that Jecht Create it find a dialogue that prove it, I got the impossible to ignore image of DZ behind Jecht in the last fight, I got the most than solid fact that when Jecht dies and IS SEND AND VANISH AND WHERE JECHT EXIST NO MORE , DZ still there until yevon is killed , what about that ?.

lemme help sir bahamut on this one, lol :p

1)just because yu yevon is summoning dz from within sin doesn't mean that it is inside sin. you could summon something a miles away if u felt like it. there's nothing in the game that says the summon has to be in the same area as the summoner. and i doubt it would because thats just bullplop.

2)i don't understand ur point. you're just stating the obivous. no1 thinks jecht is yu yevon...we see that in the final battles!!

3)you don't have to bash at people. :(

4)yes,there is NO proof in a fantasy game unless it says so within the game, or unless all reasonable logic points to it.and in this case, based on sir bahamuts arguments, points to it :rolleyes2

and in response to wilder, yes, in a ff game, the real world rules don't apply. however, based on the rules of spira, you can make conclusions of ur own using once again, logical analysis :D

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yu yevon is inside sin yu yevon summons dream zanarkand... ject does not... hmmmmm.. yu yevon is inside sin I WONDER WHERE Dream ZANARKAND IS

no where in the game does it say that jecht is yu yevon. Auron: Sin is Jecht. Auron does not say Yu Yevon is Jecht.

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Yeah, Lon covered these.

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U make it sound like you havent played the game or at least listen to the dialouge. Even if you have im pretty sure ur wrong

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Funny, I could say the same about you. Anyway, what seems more likely is that you are not reading my posts properly.

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Sir bahamut , if we get so logical there are going to be parts in the game that wouldn´t fit, and there´s when magical answers appears from the nowhere made up by people analize. For Example, You say it´s ilogical that Sin is inside of sin , that not sound so ilogical for me as "why Sin would atack DZ ?", now that sounds ilogical but Square show it like that And I have To Ask why ? right ?,

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It doesn't? Well, picture yourself trying to get inside yourself. Having a hard time? You'd be lying if you said no. For the same reason, it is completely illogical and impossible for Sin to be inside himself.

As for why Sin would attack DZ, that's not illogical at all, it's even explained in the game. Sin as Jecht attacked DZ because it was the only way to get Tidus out of there, and as we are told, Jecht wanted Tidus to have a go at the "real life", ie. outside the 'dream' world.

Perfectly logical.

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Think about it, why they would create the most important location in the entire game and don´t give it a space , Zanarkands ruins , I´m not talking a bout that, If DZ is a dream i´should not exist !, if it´s a psycical location , WHERE IT IS !

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We are never told where it is, it's just something Square decided to leave out. That's why the location of DZ was only referred to as being "somewhere in Spira" in the Ultimania. Square didn't WANT us to know where it was.

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because in some part of the game , i have to airship and I have all the time of the world to find that location no matter how is it ( and being that big as you say DZ would produced an incredible amount of light around it, it would be able to see from the sky very easily), And in this part you´ll be thinking a bout Clouds, and deep sea, and mountains so high , and islands and whatever your imagination can create, but you got to acept that square thought even in locations that don´t have nothing to do with the plot,

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Sure, you have an airship, but this is a summoned city. Yu Yevon may have summoned a wall around DZ which makes it appear to be not there.
Or it's simply on the other side of the planet.

Anyway, just 'cause you have an Airship doesn't mean you can spend all your time searching the planet. Plotwise, that's not going to happen, and it didn't happen either.

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it´s almost imposible nobody tought about giving it a location, and I´ll say it again , Or is a dream that´s not Physical, or is inside of sin, and you´re going to say , "it can be anywhere", no in this kind of games in wich everything is so planned , FF is specialized in locations , in secret places to discover, in the plot , not in leave the most important city in the entire game in a " unknow place all the game" .

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I'm not saying no one thought of giving it a location, I'm saying that Square didn't want us to visit DZ in the game, or see it. Plotwise, that didn't fit in, so they decided to have DZ be put somewhere we can't see it.

PLOTWISE, they didn't want DZ to be seen.

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About jecht dreaming his own DZ , well... I don´t why you keep on that when it´s not written in any place of the game and when the only argument that you have is the Farplane , if you want to continue saying that Jecht Create it find a dialogue that prove it,

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No, it's not written anywhere in the game, but it isn't written in the game that DZ is inside Sin either so that is irrelevant.

Anyway, my only argument isn't the farplane. It's from what Maechen and the rest of the game tell us about pyreflies(I quoted Maechen earlier on).

Fact 1) Pyreflies respon to humans thoughts, emotions and memories, and will form images based on those, when in contact with human beings. This is stated clearly in the game, and is proven through the act of summoning and the Farplane.

Fact 2) Sin is made up entirely of pyreflies held together by gravity spells.

Fact 3) Sin, ie. Jecht misses DZ a lot, visits it a lot, and obviously then thinks about it a lot. He's also very sad about being Sin(understandable, I guess).

Combining those three facts tell us that quite logically, when inside Sin, we should see pyreflies responding to Jechts thoughts, memories and emotions, and they should probably reflect his thoughts on DZ.
When we then see a dreamlike, Zanarkandlike city inside Sin, the assumption that it comes from the pyreflies is perfectly logical.

The game doesn't spoonfeed us everything. No, it gives us many facts here and there which we can piece together to form a coherent picture of the events in the game.

So unless you can show otherwise, Zanarkand in Sin being a result of the pyreflies is perfectly logical, and as I have shown, MORE logical than the Zanarkand in Sin being DZ.



[quote]I got the impossible to ignore image of DZ behind Jecht in the last fight, I got the most than solid fact that when Jecht dies and IS SEND AND VANISH AND WHERE JECHT EXIST NO MORE , DZ still there until yevon is killed , what about that ?.

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I got the impossible to ignore image of DZ behind Jecht in the last fight, I got the most than solid fact that when Jecht dies and IS SEND AND VANISH AND WHERE JECHT EXIST NO MORE , DZ still there until yevon is killed , what about that ?.

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Firstly, if we do actually assume that Jecht was completely dead after the BFA fight, then your argument is flawed. DZ is around for a bit longer, but then it all fades away and we end up fighting Yu Yevon on that weird sword thing floatinng in midair. No sign of any city anymore when fighting Yu Yevon.

Just check for yourself. It seems perfectly plausible that the pyreflies wouldn't dissolve instantly, but that, due to the magnitude of the image they form, it takes some time before it all fades(which it does).

Secondly, since Sin IS Jecht with added pyreflies, I'd wager that even after the sending of Jecht we see, Jecht wasn't completely dead, because as you see, Sin is still there.

And thirdly, the city we see is only DZ in your opinion, so stop caling it that. All we see is a city that appears to be Zanarkand. And as I said earlier, it's the same city we see when we get swallowed by Sin in the opening. Ie. you're in the real DZ, for sure. Then you get swallowed by Sin and you end up where you are in the ending FMV.

Logically, the DZ in the opening isn't the same DZ that's inside Sin simply because the opening intro shows a clear seperation. What about that?

All right, I need to say that this a merely fun conversation, Our opinions don´t have anythin to do with the official truth, so there´s no need to bash nobody.
Let´s continue !! :)

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It doesn't? Well, picture yourself trying to get inside yourself. Having a hard time? You'd be lying if you said no.

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I try and I Find it very difficult. Mr bahamut you ignored what I said about Tidus being in the walls of the faith in Mt Gagazat and being at the same time at DZ, So you´ll say "it was a dream ", and the faith himself answer you "it´s not a dream, you´re a dream".

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Sure, you have an airship, but this is a summoned city. Yu Yevon may have summoned a wall around DZ which makes it appear to be not there.
Or it's simply on the other side of the planet.

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I have to said that you cross the expaculation edge with this one Sir bahamut, why don´t you accept that Dz should be especially noisy and brighty to be hide in the surface ?, if it´s invicible by a Yevons trick , why Sin can see it ?. You say a lot that the DZ inside sin requires a lot of imagination , but you win in this one, you have more imagination than me Lolllll.

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Anyway, just 'cause you have an Airship doesn't mean you can spend all your time searching the planet. Plotwise, that's not going to happen, and it didn't happen either.

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Why you say that ?, the party have all the time to go fight omega, the dark aeons , play with chocobos, fight panacea, go have a drink, capturing a massive quantity of mosnter, and you say that the party don´t going to spend time on that ?, that SHOULD be in the plot, in some way .

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Firstly, if we do actually assume that Jecht was completely dead after the BFA fight, then your argument is flawed. DZ is around for a bit longer, but then it all fades away and we end up fighting Yu Yevon on that weird sword thing floatinng in midair. No sign of any city anymore when fighting Yu Yevon.

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no, you go check that scene, when yevon dies and the whole red weird scenario is gone, You see Yuna performing the sending dancing with DZ at the bottom, all the time the party seems to be there DZ can be see.

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And thirdly, the city we see is only DZ in your opinion, so stop caling it that. All we see is a city that appears to be Zanarkand. And as I said earlier, it's the same city we see when we get swallowed by Sin in the opening. Ie. you're in the real DZ, for sure. Then you get swallowed by Sin and you end up where you are in the ending FMV.

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This is very very interesting, because you say that the ball of water from the begginning is Sin while you can´t see what´s inside, Instead , here you see an identical Dream zanarkand and you say, even it´s identical "I can´t say that´s the DZ", well, That´s not sin either !.

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The only DZ we see isn't only inside Sin, that's only your opinion, nothing more nothing less. We see what appears to a very dreamlike Zanarkand under Jecht. The only DZ we see which we KNOW is DZ is the DZ we see in the opening, and in those films at Seymours house.

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ok, we see one in tidus weird images, he sleeps , he awakes , no road. We see another Dz in Seymour house, There´s no way to know if he is entering to THE DZ, but the game don´t show the road to get there yet. Now, In Sin Dz you can practically WALK to there, you see the road. And please, answer me about the ignored theory that if Dz is not inside of sin AT LEAST , the portal to get there is inside of him in the nucleo.
Keep going this is fun !

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Mr bahamut you ignored what I said about Tidus being in the walls of the faith in Mt Gagazat and being at the same time at DZ, So you´ll say "it was a dream ", and the faith himself answer you "it´s not a dream, you´re a dream".

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I don't see the relevance, but anyway.

That's supposed to be two sided. Ie. Tidus says "This is a dream" and Bahamut answer "Exactly" followed by the revelation that Tidus is a dream. Then the fayth says "It's not that you're dreaming, you are a dream".

He's talking about Tidus, but regardless of that, it's obvious what we see is only in Tidus head. After all, his body never dissapears from where he and the party were when he collapsed. And since Tidus is part of the dream the Fayth are dreaming, I reckon they have some possibilities to focus in on one of the citizens like that.

Actually, they'd have to have that possibility, because it's not like Yu Yevon would have let them discuss him ending the dream =P

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I have to said that you cross the expaculation edge with this one Sir bahamut, why don´t you accept that Dz should be especially noisy and brighty to be hide in the surface ?, if it´s invicible by a Yevons trick , why Sin can see it ?. You say a lot that the DZ inside sin requires a lot of imagination , but you win in this one, you have more imagination than me Lolllll.

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The DZ inside Sin requires far more imagination than the proposition that Yu Yevon could summon a pyrefly wall which made up an image that hid DZ.

However, if you don't like the idea that DZ is on the surface, then rule it out then. We still have underwater, or in the sky.

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Why you say that ?, the party have all the time to go fight omega, the dark aeons , play with chocobos, fight panacea, go have a drink, capturing a massive quantity of mosnter, and you say that the party don´t going to spend time on that ?, that SHOULD be in the plot, in some way .

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It doesn't matter what SHOULD be in the plot. All the monster catching and stuff ain't in the plot officially, and neither is a great search for DZ.

They don't go looking for DZ so don't expect them to have found it.

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no, you go check that scene, when yevon dies and the whole red weird scenario is gone, You see Yuna performing the sending dancing with DZ at the bottom, all the time the party seems to be there DZ can be see.

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Actually, you're right, my mistake. However, I'm still going to argue that it would take some time before the pyreflies faded away into some other picture. In fact, I'd wager they were molded into that picture after such a long time, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway, after Yu Yevon dies, shouldn't the dream, and thus Tidus fade at once? Perhaps, but they don't. Tidus(and the DZ, if you assume DZ is the city inside Sin) stays around much longer.

Similarly, we shouldn't expect the pyrefly city of Jechts mind to fade at once.

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This is very very interesting, because you say that the ball of water from the begginning is Sin while you can´t see what´s inside, Instead , here you see an identical Dream zanarkand and you say, even it´s identical "I can´t say that´s the DZ", well, That´s not sin either !.

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Ok, enough of this. It's Sin, no arguing.
Look, in the intro, this is what we learn about the monster in the bubble:

1) It's huge. I mean REALLY huge. It appears to be the size of Sin(comparing to the FMV at Mushroom Rock). Nothing in the game we see is as huge, except Sin.

Even BFA is dwarfed by the huge monster, so it couldn't possibly be BFA.

2) What we see of it's "face" and "skin" resembles Sin(comparing to FMV at Mushroom Rock). It's face is as big and full of eyes(that we can clearly see, just check yourself) as Sins, and it's flesh/skin resembles that of Sins. No other creature in the game has the same "face" or "flesh".

3) Auron calls it Sin. He would know what Sin was, don't you think? So we can rule out him calling anything but Sin, Sin.

4) It produces what the game calls "Sinspawn". This you can see in battle. No other creature in the game produces spawn like that, and the only creature called "Sin" which spawns "Sinspawn" is, you guessed it, Sin.

Honestly, look at all those points. Are you honestly telling me you think Square intended the creature in the beginning to be anything but Sin? You'd be mad if you did, in my eyes.
And if you do still think it could be something else than Sin, we might as well stop discussing right now.

Anyway, based on the conclusion that Sin attacks DZ, it becomes physically IMPOSSIBLE for DZ to be inside Sin. No amount of magic can cause a paradox like that. It's impossible for Sin to be inside himself, yet at the same time not inside himself. Assuming Square are trying to mess with our heads by putting such a huge logical impossibility is really farfetched if you ask me.

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And please, answer me about the ignored theory that if Dz is not inside of sin AT LEAST , the portal to get there is inside of him in the nucleo.

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Same problem. Sin would still have to enter himself while simultaneously not entering himself. Except here you're also having to assume that Yu Yevon was able to create an alternate dimension and place the portal inside Sin. If you think I have too much imagination for suggesting Yu Yevon could disguise DZ, then I wonder what this must come off as...

Well , I have to say the argument of Mr Sir bahamut about sin in the first FMV is very good, so you make your point there. But the war about DZ at the bottom in the jecht fight is still going. I´m going to put here some phrases that can be found along the game, so we can make clear about DZ ubication , with official clues that the game give to us :

1.- Tidus: When Sin attacked Zanarkand that day, I woke up in Spira. I
kept hoping it would work in reverse, too.

2.- Tidus: Auron? Will I ever go home? Back to Zanarkand?
Auron: That's up to Jecht

3.-Tidus: Say, how'd you get to Zanarkand anyway? Sin?

Auron doesn't respond.

Tidus: Uh-huh, I thought so ,That proved it. Sin was the link between Zanarkand and Spira. Which means, if we kill Sin, I'll never be able to go home.

4.- Tidus: Hey! Zanarkand! Let's go to Zanarkand! Not the one in Spira, the one I'm from.

Ok, those phrases are very fussy but give some little clues. Obiously the first one is "No Sin, No comeback to Zanarkand", And it´s referred to the way to get there, Sin is called "the link" between Zanarkand and Spira, So that reduce the posibility of Zanarkand being "exactly"in spira (inside sin is not Spira even sin is in spira, is inside sin ) , and also the posibility that spira is reachable with any other transport, and for those who are thinking, well if they kill sin , they kill yevon, and they kill the dream, well those dialogs are from the first half of the game when nobody knew anything about that, and it was ment to confirm Sin as THE ONLY way to get to DZ.
Sir bahamut, I want to know more about the Ultimania guides, where do you get to read one if there are mostly only japanese text copies and I don´t how to read it.

True, Tidus believes that Sin is the only way to get to DZ. Auron may believe it too. But remember that when they say that, Spira has barely ANY technology at all.

I'm guessing that with more advanced technology, they could have found DZ.

As for the Ultimania Guides, they can be bough in japan, or ordered over the interent. Obviously you'd need to learn japanese first.
Anyway, the way I found out about this was because many very trustworthy and respectable users from Gamefaqs all stated the same thing about what it said in the guide.
They aren't translated at all, although some people who own them and know japanese, have translated various bits into english and put them on the internet here and there. With some Google searching you might some excerpts.