Do you get the feeling that FF female characters have almost always been stereotyped to be magic-wielders , with no experience in weaponry ?
It seems to me that's the way it is.
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Do you get the feeling that FF female characters have almost always been stereotyped to be magic-wielders , with no experience in weaponry ?
It seems to me that's the way it is.
In the earlier ones I do but Yuffie and Rikku break that mold.
What earlier ones? You mean 4?
The female characters in 4 were submissive wife-to-be characters. But nobody can argue against the fact that Rydia was still totally badass. The onl other girl was Rosa and she was a white mage. So what? I like the idea of female healers.
1 and 3 the genders were irrelevant. In 2, the girl could be your strongest warrior if you wanted her to be.
6 had tons of variety.
If you want to disagree, my argument is in brackets, but you don't really have to read all that.
[Sure, Terra was a primary caster, but that's all there is for girls only casting spells. The blonde magi-cyborg (Whatever she was) was a fighter and caster. It's a strong possibility that Shadow is a female. And the painter girl had high magical power, but she was probably one of the least "stereotyped" characters of them all. I don't think that painting is a stereotyped trait of women. That kid was completely different]
So is IV a stereotype? No. I don't think so. Not too much. Maybe Yang, the asian, as a black belt, Rosa, the tender princess who doesn't live for the smell of blood, as a healer, the girl captured by monsters is a summoner...
Those aren't stereotypes. Those are generated characters based slightly on reality. (Asians are predominantly known for martial arts, caring people are more likely to want to heal and take care of other people, somebody who makes friends with monsters is far more likely to have had made friends with monsters since that is a definite history)
If Rosa was a dark knight, Kain was the jumping healer with a spear, and Rydia came out of the monster world as a ninja, then it would be more of a confused mess than an original story.
er..ok my reply is gonna be more less..detailed..ermm yeah i guess so..maybe apart from ff-x2 but yeah...good point
I am going to have to agree with Martyr. I do not feel that Final Fantasy games sterotype women. Infact I believe they go out of their way to include women as an equally im[portant assest to any world saving team. Take FF5 for example.Spoiler!Not very sterotypical of women I'd say.Code:By the end of the game it is an almost all women team that saves the world, with the exception of Bartz, who may as well be the luckiest man alive. Not to forget that Farris, a woman, is also a pirate and leader of a pirate gang.
Also what about FF6? A general who is a woman (Celes).
I definetly disagree that Final Fantasy sterotypes women as spellcasters.
i noticed that Square likes to hook up blond guys with brunettes: Cloud/Aeris/Tifa (love triangle), Zidane/Garnet, Shuyin/Lenne, Tidus/Yuna.
dont 4get Seifer/Rinoa in a way too!
There are exceptions to that rule.
Ayla, Selphie, Tifa, Yuffie, Rikku, Kid, Orlha, and Paine are some good examples of what I'm talking about.
There's also Porom, who, while still a white mage, smacks her brother around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
Are you talking about Celes? She wasn't a cyborg...Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
Well.... (SPOILER)Shadow's a guy, his name is Clyde. But that's not exactly obvious right away...Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
She wasn't a mage but she still wasn't good in combat. In fact, mages have magic that makes up for their lack of fighting ability. Relm just has a brush. Her usefulness in a fight is very questionable, which is sort of the female stereotype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
I think that there's been quite a bit of female stereotyping in the FF series, but there's more than a few totally badass characters. Rydia, while lacking physical strength (she's only like 10 or whatever when you first get her.....) more than compensates with her ability to summon Bahamut. Lulu is probably the first specifically female black mage in the whole series. Come to think of it.... Yup, first one ever! Rikku has no attack power whatsoever, but being a theif/chemist DEFINITELY makes her useful, sometimes moreso than Tidus. Faris commanded and entire crew of pirates, you can't be a wimp if you're gonna do that! Beatrix is probably the only female character who is meant to be physically strong. Her "class" is never completely given, but it seems that she's some variant on knight.
Maria, Rosa, Klulu, Selphie, Rinoa and Eiko, however, all do a good job of not being terribly strong in any sense of the word.
I've just had a thought .
Women are supposedly more proficient with magic - maybe that's the reason FF females ( with the exceptions everyone's mentioned ) are stereotyped like that ... ?
Well... Um...Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsunari 2000
Are they supposedly more proficient with magic.
I mean, I've never actually seen magic happen. Not real magic. I once met some chick who claims that she can make love potions and such (Witch/Whacko), but I've never seen her do it.
I know that it pisses people off when I say stuff like this, but:
Men do build muscles far easier than women. Men have been, on a large scale, the ones who fought in wars in the past (Especially those of midieval times when physical strength and ability was more important. That is, not to discredit modern soldeirs, but people can be pilots and still not be able to bench twice their weight.)
Perhaps it's more logical and typical that women shouldn't be swinging greatswords. Perhaps the invention of "magic" in a fantasy world is what allows women to better fit in and take a roll in the Final Fantasy style warfare.
Men as manual warriors is not stereotypical. It's practical and logical.
Bizarre example: Frogs hop. For the purpose of originality, in a story, would it be a good idea to have frogs made of cardboard with human noses who don't hop but, instead, slide like slugs on slime that oozes from between their eyes?
No. That's something completely different. There is no shame in having frogs that hop, EVEN THOUGH, frogs have always hopped.
So, just like frogs hop, men fight. Women do laundry. If a woman feels like picking up a sword, most likely, to save time (Which she probably doesn't have to be working out twice as much as a guy), she'll probably want a small blade. She's probably naturally more flexible. She's probably going to be a runner or a spy. Not an armor clad barbarian with a 100 lb Battle Axe.
But if she wants to kill things, let her be a mage. It's a freaking good solution!
And that's why!
And, for the record, stereotypes aren't evil! They're just the result of what usually happens! Stereotypes are generally dependable and they often come out to be quite true. If you don't believe me, go armwrestle anybody of the opposite sex with your same lifestyle.
If you don't like them, then read a book. Final Fantasy is not supposed to be your resource for literary genious.
My post was based on only the magic stereotype.
FFII- While this one is totally my fault, Maria is always the Red Mage of the group.
FFIV-Rosa, Rydia, and Porom all used magic.
FFV- You can't really classify this game because it's all what you make of it.
FFVI-Celes, Terra, and Realm are all magic users without the use of Espers.
FFVII-Aeris is a magic user. (Guess I shoulda mentioned Tifa in my list)
FFVIII-Rinoa is a sorceross. Selfie is more inclined to use magic than be an all out physical fighter. Questis is a blue mage.
FFIX-Dagger and Eiko are summoners.
FFX-Yuna is a summoner and Lulu is a black mage.
FFXI- Can't really classify.
Relm doesnt use magic without Espers, she just has a higher magic power that everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
I had taken all that into account , thank you - but one point - you say "stereotypes are generally dependable and they quite often turn out to be quite true " - so , what about racial stereotypes?
Are you suggesting that every Scotsman wears tartan , blows the bagpipes and eats haggis ? All American tourists wear big stetsons , smoke cigars and speak in big, loud Texan accents ? All Germans are big bruisers who steal sunloungers , don't shave and are all basically arrogant ? If you believe that, you need to wake up.
:mad2: Remember this is a free democratic forum , before you reproach ME on what is and what is not a resource of " literary genius " !!!
I got the impression this was meant to read "Stereotypes have originated because they are based on some truth, albeit generalised and somewhat outdated by today's standards."Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr and Itsunari 2000
I disagree with the claim that women have been typecast (I prefer that word to 'stereotyped') as magic users as although almost all of the women in Final Fantasy games use magic, the men do also. In fact Strago is predominantly a magic user, and he is male. In FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII and FFX all characters can use magic, not just the females. I apologise for not mentioning the earlier games but I haven't played them yet. FFIX is an interesting case as some may see the central plot revolving around a male magic user who goes by the name of Vivi. There just happens to be two female magic users included.
I can see where some of you are coming from, but the statement should not be "Women are stereotyped as magic users", but should in fact read "Female characters are usually more proficient in their use of magic than the male characters". The historical/traditional reasoning behind this has already been mentioned by Martyr before he descended into insanity and began talking about frogs.
Yet, interestingly enough, sages Tellah and FuSoYa are male. Are there any female sages?Quote:
"Female characters are usually more proficient in their use of magic than the male characters"
2-Maria and Leila could be whatever you want them to be.
4-Rydia, Porom, and Rosa all fit the magic user stereotype.
5-You can do anything with the characters.
6-Terra and Celes have limited magic without espers, but are perfectly good fighters as well. Relm is a lousy fighter and needs espers for magic.
7-Tifa and Yuffie can beat the bejesus out of anything. And then there's Aeris...
Not sure about later games.
It seems that one stereotypical female character pops up in each game (Rosa, Relm, Aeris), and they do something else with the others.
I do understand what everyone is saying, but let's think about this rationally. Japan is and has always been a male dominant society. These games weren't created for the sole enjoyment of the rest of the world prior to the Playstation (actually N64 but were talking FF, and no FF games were released for N64). Only if games were successful in Japan were they released in the United States and Europe. This is the reason we did not see numerous early versions.
As far as typecasting (I agree, much better word) goes, I think FF does doesn't do it always. One example, which no one can argue is Beatrix in FFIX. Sure she was a NPC, but you know she could physically rout Zidane and Steiner with her eyes closed. Also no one brought up Agrias and Meliadoul from FFT. Agrias was one of the most important assets to your group until you get Orlandu. As I remember, Reis was a potential powerhouse also. Come on, she was half dragon!
I think the WORST typecast was Barret. if I'm not mistaken, he is the only black playable character in a FF. Note he speaks like hes from Harlem. If thats not typecasting what is? How bad would this sound if you pitched this idea in America. "Ok guys, lets have a big black guy who lives in a slum, speaks and looks like Mr. T, and uses a gun. A big one, not some handgun, but a big honking gatling style gun. Oh, we'll make him have a kid but no wife too." That executive would be fired on the spot. So before you go saying girls have been typecast as magicians think of poor Barret.
I- on the PSX version the White Mage was female, but the Black mage was male
II- Whatever you want them to be.
III- Look at FF1
IV- Tellah (M), Porom (F), Palom (M), Rydia (F), Rosa (F), Cecil (M)
V- Whatever you want them to be.
VI- Terra (F), Celes (F)
VII- Aeris (F)
VIII- Rinoa (F)
IX- Eiko (F), Garnet (F), Vivi (M)
X- Yuna (F), Lulu (F)
XI- Whatever you want them to be.
In FFI they were genderless. Most people assume they're male and female.Relm came from Thamasa though, which is the home of people who can still use magic.Quote:
Relm doesnt use magic without Espers, she just has a higher magic power that everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsunari 2000
Okay...
As a student and a scholar of literature and all forms of writing, I "strongly advise" that you reconsider your sources of literary genius, if you really look to the plots of the mega-stereotypical genre game that also steals as many overused ideas as Final Fantasy. Pardon me, but I was trying to help rationalize the semi-lidicrousness of your argument.
As for the other thing, the thing about the accuracy of stereotypes, you're taking it like every other moron who just can't listen or pay attention to what's being said.
I said that they're most likely to be true. That they're based on common facts and ideas, and that it isn't really a crime to utilize them as a tool for making a world in a story seem fairly accurate.
I'm not suggesting that every Scottsman wears tartan, blows the bagpipe and eatcs haggis. But I know that it's part of the lifestyles and histories of many Scottsman. My grandfather, a Scott, for example, knows how to play a bagpipe. If I ask a Scott if he coupld play one, I wouldn't expect him to be angry. If he was, then I doubt that it would be because I grouped him with Scottsmen. I mean, "Oh no! Somebody assumed that I have been taught traditions of my fathers and that I was interested in my families histories and professions!" No. People are proud of being able to do and know what their fathers and grandfathers have been able to do and know.
I don't know much about your American Tourist example. I live in south Florida and know a great deal about regular Tourists, however. They seem to be innocent, they're most likely the people with pale, white skin, and they are often confused and annoyed by the amount of spanish spoken in my city. Conversely, I'd bet you anything that most Texans have a Texan accent. If I was filming a Texan character, I'd probably get a Hank from King of the Hill (Or a Dale), and not an Al Pacino. If A group from Texas was touring Europe, they will more than likely have Texas Accents, and Texas, to be sure, is a large state. Are New England and New York accents also common tourist stereotype?
Look, if you are afraid to use stereotypes, then you're going to have to wake up. Because, and to this I swear, the next time you expect somebody to be completely different than usual, you're almost definately going to be very wrong.
Stereotypes are dependable and they quite often turn out to be quite true!
And now I'm all off topic.
Edit:
Wait, maybe I can wrap it into the topic.
Um... The chick stereotype, therefore, shouldn't be much of a problem. That is, concerning lots of the junk I stated in my last argument as well as this.
I'm seriously beginning to wish I hadn't even started this stupid thread ... to hell and damnation , how could I be so STUPID ?
Going along with the females are always weaker than males arguement, Males were origionally hunters thousands of years ago so therefore we evolved with strong physical strength to fight and kill things such as large buffalo and herdes of other large animals. Therfore if a male weight lifted without the use of steroids the limit to his strength would be much higher than a females, who were foragers and therefore evolved with better vision than men and in most cases memory than men.
Also there accually a study somewhere by a scientist stating that females are more prone to paranormal activities (ghosts, possesings, magic, seeing things that aren't there but are connected to that area e.g. a wheelchair that belonged to a pervious owner of a hotel going in circles around the room but everyone else are acting as if it wasn't there)they also happen to men sometimes but in the study around 70 something percent of paranormal activities happen to women.
Are you saying that wouldn't be cool? Because I think you really might be onto something there....Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
What?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyr
I really don't think that is what the programmers were thinking. Its morte like. "We want both males and females. Our fan base is mostly males so they'd prefer a hero with strength to be male. But women are important to storylines and since the strong men are the fighters that leaves the women to be healers and magicians." Also I feel my Japan theory above is another reason for the typecasting.
I agree with Martyr about the usage of these typecasts. They are based on truth or they wouldn't exist. Eskimos DID live in Igloos. Indians (Native Americans) DID speak broken english and hunt with bows once. Asians DID come up with martial arts and have trouble pronouncing Ls and Rs. Its "stereotypical" but true. Are there Eskimos who live in mansions and apartments? Yes, but the FIRST think people think of when they hear the word Eskimo IS Igloos, Polar Bears and Ice. Same with Indian/Native Americans. The first thing they think of is the Long Black haried John Redcorn looking guy hunting Buffalo with a Bow. More than likely with a feather in his headband. Us that true anymore? No, but that doesn't stop people from thinking it. Chinese people DID come up with martial arts, but not every one of them is Bruce Lee and speaks like Conn from King of the Hill (King of the Hill is so useful in this thread). Perfect example of a modern Chinese person in America. Watch Law and Order:SVU. B.D. Wong speaks perfect english and has no karate scens at all. But when people think of chinese folks they still think of Bruce Lee and broken english fast food workers.
Still skepical if typecasting is true? Ready? Italian people. You JUST thought of Spaghetti and The Goodfellas/Sopranos/Casino etc. greasy haired mafia stereotype. You didn't think of an honest hard working middle-aged doctor, nor did you think of a poor homeless man in the city of Milwaukee. Why because that is not the typical italian portrayed in TV or Movies. The only way I can forsee anyone thinking any differently than what I stated above is either you are italian or are really good friends with one (so you thought of him).
Women aren't any different. Besides Xena, how many macho women actresses are there? Only the chick from the Matrix comes to mind (and Lucy Liu, but thats asian martial arts stereotyping at its finest) Now how many Male macho stars are there? Swarzenegger, Van Damm, Hulk Hogan(in the 80's), The Rock, Mel Gibson was one, Stallone, Hugh Jackman, the list goes on. So, thats the way things are. Women have always been the lesser strong of the human race. Sexist as that sounds its true. I'm not saying ALL women will lose in a fight to any man, I'm saying in general, women are weaker. Thus they aren't fit into warrior typecast, but more of a princess, need to be protected typrcast.
Er, women did laundry. That was an erroneous example there, proobably.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJZen
Today I guess it's different, but even still, I'd see it more easily accepted for a woman to be doing laundry. (I don't even know if that's stereotype since I do most of the laundry for our family and I'm a guy.)
So... Uh... Frogs hop, men fight, women get angry at men for being out so late fighting bad guys and not participating in dinner with the family and the children - Who we don't want to have to get into bloody wars when they grow up - which is far more important than getting your nose broken?
Whatever. I'm going to assume that my point went through and everything has turned out to be lovely and wonderful and that we are all in swell agreement.
And yea, I guess the frog thing was wierd and cool. Despite my point.
Eskimo is a word that explorers made up. Native Americans only spoke broken english if they knew some English, but weren't fluent in it. The first martial artists were the first people to start figuring out how to fight, which predates Chinese martial arts by a long score, and the only Asians who have trouble pronouncing Ls and Rs are the ones who don't have an L in their language. Korean and Chinese have L and R sounds in the language.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCydranth
Regardless of wether or not what you say is true that doesn't stop stereotypes that are set for those people. It is well known that stereotypes aren't always true. But we all use them wether or not we like it. As bad as it sounds that is true. If you do not belong to a particular group you stereotype it. I'm English, Irish and German. Does that mean I'm one BIG alcoholic because Irish and Germans are famous for being alcoholics? No. Does that mean I wear green all day, carry a shillaley and go to oktoberfests? No. However when people think of Irish they think of green clovers, Leprechauns and heavy accented drunks. Germans aren't leiderhosen wearing, blonde haired blue eyed Oktoberfest beer drinkers. But thats what they think of. These things ARE based on truth though or else they wouldn't be the stereotype. Ireland does have a lot of green, their is folklore of leprechauns and gold and the do like beer. Greman ancestors did wear leiderhosen, hitler did think aryans were superior and they still celebrate Oktoberfest. Those are truths but not every Irish or German fall into that group.
Stereotypes come from truth in one facet or another. The ONLY exception I can think of is the Polish being huge morons. I got nothing for why thats a stereotype. Its kinda thae same with Blondes, but look and Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie... they aren't helping any.
I don't care who dubbed them Eskimos, they did live in Igloos. The point you say proved my point. Indians spoke broken english, why doesn't matter, the fact is they did and got stereotyped for it. Asians DO mispronounce the letters L and R, not all, but some do and because of those that do ALL are stereotyped for it.
wouldn't Freya be considered a mage as well? :confused: there are Red Mages in Final Fantasy and they're usually female (plus Freya dresses like one).
No, Freya is a Dragoon. I always thought Eskimos perferred to be called Inuits, but there you go.
My point was that you're neither objective nor accurate in your logic. This is an EXTREMELY touchy issue, and attempting to bulldoze reasoning into it is dangerous. You're certainly not correct that all of us use stereotypes though. I fully realize how stupid it would sound if I said that I don't since it would be very convenient if that were true in trying to prove my point, but I actually don't unless I'm making a tasteless joke to people who realize that I'm being facetious, which is a long way away from ACTUALLY stereotyping a group of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCydranth
Anyway, arguing that women in reality are less physically strong thus making this stereotype not a bad one is like saying most african americans are poor and speak ebonics thus portraying them as such is okay. Sure, it might be statistically true, but the fact of the matter is that when a TV show introduces an african american character who speaks ebonics and pretty much exists just to be a stereotype, people ACTUALLY get offended by that. Same thing with just about any stereotype. Many people are upset about Jack from Will & Grace and the existance of Queer Eye For The Straight Guy. Sure, many gay people do act like that (possibly even the majority, but I don't have the statistics) but whether or not you like it, a character on a show represents people with the traits that are most immediately identifiable.
"Conn" (I believe it's spelled Khan but I've never actually checked) from King of the Hill actually IS a good example of how this works. Whenever one of the neighbors talks to him they make gross generalizations about all asian people. No one ever remembers that his family is Laotian. They frequently ask him about Chinese or Japanese things which he typically knows little to nothing about. His character exists so that Mike Judge can satirize the "casual racism" that comes from the ignorance of judging by stereotypes. Hank Hill isn't a terribly racist person, but he is quick to pidgeonhole, and that's still a dangerous thing. It's made more dangerous by the fact that he's a TV show character, and people actually pick up a disturbing number of ways of thinking from TV. No, you don't watch a crime drama that involves rape and go out and rape someone, that's not what I'm saying. However, the values of a culture are ECHOED through entertainment, which causes a feedback loop of sorts.
Fortunately, we currently live in a very pluralist society where many of these stereotypes are quickly dismissed as absurdity, but I can tell you that watching someone attempt portray all gay men a certain way frustrates me very much. I find it dangerously close to the minstrel shows of old. The problem isn't outright hatred and degradation, it's ignorance that gets echoed to a point where people start believing it. That's where the danger lies. Women in our culture are brought up to believe many things that aren't actually true about them, as are men, and the problem is that people don't do much to show otherwise.
That's all.
I am a man. I do laundry. Infact I do all the house work, laundry, dishes, cooking. It is also a part of my job as a direct care specialist.Quote:
So, just like frogs hop, men fight. Women do laundry.
Please, don't do that. You saw something, and spoke your mind on it. Many have different oppinions, and sometimes some of us try to explain our oppinions, but being that all things said in a form such as this can be read in a manner opposite of which it was intended, emotions can get frazzeled. As you stated before, it is a democratic forum, and thusly all who have something to say, will say it. My advice is if something said bothers you, you always have the option to take it with a grain of salt, let it be known in a rational maner that you disagree, and let go of the probelm completely.Quote:
I'm seriously beginning to wish I hadn't even started this stupid thread ... to hell and damnation , how could I be so STUPID ?
I still stand by my oppinion that Final Fantasy does not sterotype women, but then again, I am known for being somewhat stubborn.
Seriously though, I don't even wanna think about this ...