What exactly happened to Nibelheim?

Ok, so I just beat the game last night. I didn't even beat it all the way through, I just rushed through skipping any sidequests because it was my first time and I wasn't using a strategy guide.

Anyway, I was just wondering if Nibelheim really did burn down five years ago, why do none of the townspeople remember it? What about that whole thing is real and what is just made up memories of Cloud? Did I miss something somewhere that explains this?

On a side note, I love all the stuff that makes you really think about the game, like the R=U theory of VIII. Anything juicy like that in VII?

Nibelheim burned down. everyone but Cloud, Tifa and Zargan died. Shinra rebuilt the town and hired actors to live there.

*afraid to sound like a gullible n00b*
Really? Where's the evidence of that?

In the game.

Very helpful.
When you revisit Nibelheim go to Tifas room, On the desk you'll find a letter from Hojo explaining everything.

.... ah, ya, I missed that part. Thanks.

What happened to Zargan after Nibelheim? Did Shin-Ra kill him to keep him quiet?

Unknown. He was just a minor character anyway. He travelled around the world so its no suprise he wasnt seen after that. He just helped people out of there houses and when the fire died out was probably in enough of a haste to move on. Either that or the shinra killed him which doesnt look likely with Hojo's letter.

Do you mean the Hojo's letter in the mansion? I don't remember a letter in Tifa's room.

Can I still read it on Disc 2/3? Where exactly is it? I'm gonna go read it, then. I never knew that was there.

I only noticed it recently my self when a friend who was playing it for the first time pointed it out to me. *disgraced*
It should still be there disc 2/3.

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Originally Posted by Destai

Very helpful.

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To me it sounded like he didn't believe me, so I took an offensive stance. maybe I was wrong.

sorry for making you out to be in the wrong.

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Originally Posted by Cuchulainn

What happened to Zargan after Nibelheim? Did Shin-Ra kill him to keep him quiet?

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He searched Nibelheim for survivors, but only found Tifa after he saw Cloud, Zack and the other survivors being rounded up by Hojo. He used curative magic to keep her alive till he got her to Midgar, where he found a doctor. He then went into hiding.

This is revealed in the hidden letter in Tifa's piano.

Really!? I only remember it saying you're my prized student and giving Tifas ulimate limit break.

Yeah, regain control of Cloud (so, post Meteor), and play the main theme's melody again, I belive it's

X,[],/\,R1+O(not sure, but you can hopefully figure it out by ear),R1+X(again, not sure),X,[],/\,R1+X,/\,[],X,[],X,

and you get the letter from Zangan detailing what Big D told us about, then Tifa (oh, right, she has to be in your party) behaves like Yuffie sometimes does, and you get the limit break.

I'm gonna go find Hojo's letter now.

Yay! Something new from my favorite game! I'm so happy there's still some text I haven't seen, yet!

maybe someone can hook it up with a script? ***smiles and shrugs***

I played VII plenty of times but that's the one side quest I skipped, never thought it was that important till now

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Yay! Something new from my favorite game! I'm so happy there's still some text I haven't seen, yet!

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You're gonna love Advent Children :D

I sure will love Advent Children!

Yep, I saw the letter. Ran all the way up through from the bottom of the crater just to read the letter. It's located like on her desk NW of the piano.

Oh, and some of my notes are wrong. The 4th note is R2+/\. The 5th note is R2+[]. After the 7th note, it's O,X,[],X. Yeah, I played the song before turning off my PS2.

Thanks for replying Big D i remember that now, just forgot. I wonder if he's hidden somewhere in a Midgar slum....maybe Kalm...hmm, it's amazing such minor characters end up being so important to the plot when you think about it, no Zargan...no Tifa, no Tifa, no Cloud in Avalanche & thus no plot, just meteor & certain death...

Zangan, not "Zargan."

I don't think he's in the slums. At least, there's no conclusive data that I've heard of that definitively identifies him for you. I mean, he could be in the slums, but the game doesn't really tell you what happened to him after he brought Tifa to Midgar. Maybe he's the guy in the Earthen Pipe? Not sure.

KR? He would know.

Zangan doesn't show up anywhere except in flashbacks.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

To me it sounded like he didn't believe me, so I took an offensive stance. maybe I was wrong.

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*really late*
Ya, my bad, I didn't mean it like that.

kuponut.com helped out a lot, check it out, they got a script and sensable conclusions

Maybe he's dead :D

Ah okay, I'm hearing Zargon, Zangen all over the thread. I believe the person was named Zack. No I'm absolutly certain his name is Zack, so please explain the Zargon, Zangen Jargon.

Wrong character BOF :D

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Originally Posted by Destai

Wrong character BOF :D

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Okay explain Zangen to me. It has been a year from beating the game and even father from Niebelhiem.

He was Tifas trainer in the Nibelheim flashback. He was in the Inn. He travels around the world teaching martial arts to kids from different towns. When Nibelheim was burning he was helping people out of there houses.

Hold on, don't you know that weapons seller who's house is Southeast of The Gold Saucer and Northeast of Gongaga isn't that him!!!! (could be wrong haven't play ff7 in 2 years due to broken disc)

Nah, that's not him. Zangan is shorter and chubbier.

I know you are talking about cloud20747, and you are not talking about Zangan. I also wouldn't bet on a secret identity since we aren't looking the same sprite or swapped palettes (Edgar/Gerrad in FFVI).

OKAY. To figure out what happened in Nibelheim, you examine Tifa's desk NW of the piano to read a letter by Hojo.

Other issues addressed in this thread: Zangan is the guy with a cape that trains people in Nibelheim. You can learn more about Zangan and Tifa's past by playing the tune on the piano during disc 2 with Tifa in your party (when Cloud is the leader). Press X,[],/\,R2+/\,R2+[],X,[],/\,R1+X,O,X,[],X.

Zack is a different character. Take Cloud to the Shinra basement after the Fort Condor Mission to get the scenes that tie up loose ends with them.

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Originally Posted by Weimar Pluto Knight VII

I know you are talking about cloud20747, and you are not talking about Zangan. I also wouldn't bet on a secret identity since we aren't looking the same sprite or swapped palettes (Edgar/Gerrad in FFVI).

OKAY. To figure out what happened in Nibelheim, you examine Tifa's desk NW of the piano to read a letter by Hojo.

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It was a letter from Zangan, actually. This is what it said:

*Spoilers, highlight text to read*
[SPOILERS]"Tifa, what's happened to our town? Was it all an illusion, or
just a dream? No, it was neither. I remember trying to get people out of
the flames, but not having the strength... Burning with anger, I went to
the reactor to kill Sephiroth."
"But he was nowhere to be found. Instead, I found you, collapsed
inside. I felt saving you was far more important than going after
Sephiroth. There were several others that were still alive inside, but I
was only able to save you."
"As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just
arriving. I recall a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the
troops to gather up everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know
what type of experiment he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let
them have my dearest student."
"Putting you on my back, I headed down the mountain to the
village. I used the Cure spell on you many times."
"And started to head for Midgar to look for a doctor for you. I
don't like that city, but my Cure spells weren't helping."
"I decided to go to Midgar to find a doctor I could trust. I'm
worried about you, but I can't settle down in one place for very long.
Have you recovered fully? Are you well?"
"I wonder how many years have passed since then? I just got into
town again, but I can't believe it... The whole town is back to normal,
except for the strange beings with black clothes all around..."
"The town reeks of Shinra, but I won't go after them. You may
think I'm running from them, but it's just that I don't want anything to
do with Shinra anymore. Feels like time is running out."
"I'm sure you'll find this letter. And this gift for you. It
should come in handy. I can't even jump anymore. But I hope you continue
to sharpen your skills and remember what I taught you."
"To my most precious student, From Zangan"[/SPOILERS]

Yes, that's the letter on the piano.

There is a little known letter on the desk NW of the piano by Hojo. It's mentioned in this thread; I checked it out, and it's there; trust me.

Oh, and I would have marked Zangan's letter in spoilers. I'd rather want players go find it and read for themselves, although if you put it in spoiler tags, that accomodates for players who maybe lost their FFVII or something.

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There is a little known letter on the desk NW of the piano by Hojo. It's mentioned in this thread; I checked it out, and it's there; trust me.

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No, there isn't. I thought you were talking about the letter from Zangan, but you're talking about the letter to Hojo. TO Hojo. ;) Hojo didn't write it. ;) I just went and played mah game and wrote it down:

*Spoilers, highlight text to read*
[Spoilers]

"Periodic Report to Professor Hojo"

1. Clone Activity Report

Unfortunately, no 'CLONES' have left this town this quarter. As previously reported, the 'CLONES' seem to be sensing something. But all they say is, 'reunion' or 'Sephiroth' and show no other signs of activity.

2 Confidentiality Report

A total of eight people have visited this town this quarter. Fortunately, none knew about the incident five years ago. Therefore, no one knows the town was restored exactly as it was five years ago. Our staff, disguised as townspeople, have improved their acting skills, and we do not report and problems at this time.

That is all.

[/SPOILERS]

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Oh, and I would have marked Zangan's letter in spoilers. I'd rather want players go find it and read for themselves, although if you put it in spoiler tags, that accomodates for players who maybe lost their FFVII or something.

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This whole topic is a spoiler. :\ If people who haven't played FF7 and don't want to know what happens come into an FF7 forum, then into a topic called "What really happened _____" they should hopefully realize that there's gonna be spoilers. Not to mention I said "Here is the letter:" So people have the choice to read it, or not read it, if they want. Buuuut, I will go back and edit mah post this time just for you.:love:

~Rogue

You're right. I've only read it once, so I might have mis-remembered. Yeah, it was to Hojo. Not from.

I thought about the kinda topic this is, too. But, like the thing with the letter, I wouldn't want to see it here. I'd go play the game and read it there. Much more exciting that way.

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Originally Posted by rogue

just for you. :love:

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Does that mean you like me, or were you being sarcastic? If you were being sarcastic, I didn't mean to be an overbearing moderator on you. Sorry if I did.

Amazingly, no one has clarified a major error as of yet.

There WERE survivors after the fire. However, their fates are certainly not enviable. The 'CLONES' in the Hojo letter, those mysterious black figures: they are the survivors of Nibelheim. Like Cloud and Zack, they were treated with Jenova cells by Hojo. Given the dynamics of the Reunion theory, it explains why they were always following Sephiroth around. Zangan took Tifa to safety in Midgar; they were the only people in town at the time that were neither killed nor used by Hojo in his experiments.

Following the destruction of the town, it was restored and staffed by Shinra employees, to cover up the fact that the incident ever took place.

Zangan essentially disappears from the story. As Kishi noted, he is only seen in flashbacks. He notes in the letter to Tifa that he doesn't want anything to do with Shinra, so his absence is explained. His ultimate fate is never fully explored, so feel free on that matter to draw your own conclusions.

I first noticed that the cloaked dudes might have been the Nibelheim survivors when I talked to the ones in an attic this last time. It occurred to me that their speech pattern was familiar.

"You're from the Shinra?"
"Chinra?"

"Reunion."
"ion."

--or whatever they say.

Yeah, but many of the black-clads were also former SOLDIERs. Since every one of them were also Jenova-cell infused. So, we have no sure way to tell if they were/are the Nibelheim residents, or just waiting around while Sephy was doing his thing.

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Originally Posted by Squall04

On a side note, I love all the stuff that makes you really think about the game, like the R=U theory of VIII. Anything juicy like that in VII?

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Well, there's always the whole (SPOILER)L=J theory. ;)


(SPOILER)But you'd probably be better off if you just ignore that one. It's untrue. As untrue as the whole R=U thing. And yes, Square has said that Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia after all the hooplah that was started over this theory when it originally came out.;)

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Originally Posted by udsuna

Yeah, but many of the black-clads were also former SOLDIERs. Since every one of them were also Jenova-cell infused. So, we have no sure way to tell if they were/are the Nibelheim residents, or just waiting around while Sephy was doing his thing.

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The indication was never offered that the folks at the Reunion were members of SOLDIER. The one member of SOLDIER we see don a black cloak was only affected to the extent of putting on the cloak, even while he retained his normal speech and lifestyle. Seeing as how Zack was said to have not had a reaction to JENOVA's Cells, and the member of SOLDIER in Junon who only went so far as to don a black cloak, the indication would be that members of SOLDIER are not forced to subvert to the will of JENOVA/Sephiroth.

Besides, to assume the black-cloaked folks were anyone but the surviving residents of the original Nibelheim would leave the massive plotholes of "Why were the only members of SOLDIER we get to see closely not strongly affected by JENOVA?" "What happened to those surviving residents of Nibelheim and why weren't they at the Reunion?" as well as assuming that the only information we were given concerning members of SOLDIER -- which would suggest that they were strong enough to resist such control -- was completely false. It would require assuming massive ignorance on the part of the writers, and while they do display some instances of what is -- in my opinion -- stupidity, they don't leave plot devices they introduced untouched.

Couple of questions, probably stupid but I think I missed the answers:
Did (SPOILER)Zack really die?
And was Cloud (SPOILER) not a clone after all?

And then, about Tifa's piano, would anyone happen to know the notes on the PC?

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Originally Posted by Kamrusepas

Couple of questions, probably stupid but I think I missed the answers:
Did (SPOILER)Zack really die?
And was Cloud (SPOILER) not a clone after all?

And then, about Tifa's piano, would anyone happen to know the notes on the PC?

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(SPOILER)Yes, Zack is very much dead, and, yes, Cloud is a Sephiroth Clone, but all that means is that he was injected with JENOVA's Cells and infused with Mako. That's what it means to be a Sephiroth Clone, not that one is a genetic duplicate of him produced from his DNA. Blame the translators at Sony back in 1997 and the linguistic limitations -- particularly in regard to context -- offered when translating from Japanese to English for your confusion in regard to that matter.

So was it true that (SPOILER) he wasn't created five years ago?

Of course he wasn't created five years ago. You see flashbacks from before then.

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Originally Posted by Kamrusepas

So was it true that (SPOILER) he wasn't created five years ago?

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(SPOILER)That's correct. No one in the game was grown in a test tube.

Alright, thanks :)

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...yes, Cloud is a Sephiroth Clone, but all that means is that he was injected with JENOVA's Cells and infused with Mako. That's what it means to be a Sephiroth Clone, not that one is a genetic duplicate of him produced from his DNA...

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are you sure that the sephiroth clones werent injected with Sephiroths Cells and not with jenova's? Or does it say specifictly in the game that the sephy clones are injected with jenova's cells? i dont really remember.

But if my theory is true. it would explain alot. because, that would maybe give a reason why zack didnt react to the process the way Cloud did. Cause Zack already had jenova cells in him since he was a member of soldier. But since Cloud was never in soldier, and prosumbably neither were any of the other clones, it would explain the bad reaction to the treatment. i dont know if that makes any since . im kinda tired...

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Originally Posted by AkiraMakie

are you sure that the sephiroth clones werent injected with Sephiroths Cells and not with jenova's? Or does it say specifictly in the game that the sephy clones are injected with jenova's cells? i dont really remember.

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Quotes from the game:

(SPOILER)(Cloud on the Airship after coming to terms with himself in Mideel.)

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(SPOILER)Cloud
"I'm physically built like someone on SOLDIER."
"Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."
"It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of
SOLDIER."

(He shrugs)

Cloud
"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
"Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"

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(SPOILER)(From the Escapee Reports in the back of the Shinra Mansion's library.)

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(SPOILER)Escapee Report No. 2
Description of the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him.
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

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(SPOILER)So, yes, I'm absolutely positive. Besides, there was nothing special about Sephiroth's cells that didn't come from JENOVA to begin with. The only thing about his physiology that would make it special is that JENOVA's Cells melded with his body while it was a developing fetus.

ok, i stand corrected.

But then why dont the members of soldier have the same reaction to the reunion as the sephy clones. there has to be something more to that whole being a sephy clone thing. I mean, it has to be some way different than just the regular soldier treatment. I mean all of soldier and the Turks as well werent affected by the reunion. neither was hojo, who had injected himself with jenova cells too. it doesnt add up.

Does no one here remember who Zangan is?
He's the one on the right, with the cape. Does that help anyone? You see him during the Nibelheim flashbacks.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...characters.jpg

Yaaay!! Wedge and Biggs!

Two of the greatest Star Wars characters ever...
I loved that mustache; R.I.P. Biggs Darklighter

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Originally Posted by AkiraMakie

ok, i stand corrected.

(SPOILER)But then why dont the members of soldier have the same reaction to the reunion as the sephy clones. there has to be something more to that whole being a sephy clone thing. I mean, it has to be some way different than just the regular soldier treatment. I mean all of soldier and the Turks as well werent affected by the reunion. neither was hojo, who had injected himself with jenova cells too. it doesnt add up.

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(SPOILER)In regard to the Turks, they weren't injected with JENOVA's Cells, nor were they infused with Mako. As for Hojo, we don't know when he injected himself. It may have been after the Reunion had already passed, even shortly before the battle with him on the Sister Ray.

In regard to the members of SOLDIER, the indication given throughout the game is that acceptance of one's self leads to greater mental fortitude. Zack was a self-confident person, comfortable with himself and referred to as a ladies' man even by his girlfriend Aerith, whereas Cloud was someone who wasn't comfortable with himself and attempted to hide his failures from others, and even himself, as a subconscious reaction.

Seeing as how Cloud says that weak People like him get lost in the experimentation (and the flashback that can be seen in the Shinra Mansion's library shows us what he means, as he was left semi-catatonic), we know he means weak-minded people and not physically weak people, in which case Zack and others who were unaffected must be strong-minded People. Cloud had a reaction to JENOVA's Cells, whereas Zack didn't:

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(SPOILER)Escapee Report No. 2
Description of the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him.
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

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(SPOILER)Considering that the differences we see in Zack and Cloud's minds are their acceptance of theirselves, it's safe to assume that it was these things that kept Zack from losing his personality, and allowed Cloud to lose his own.

There are two other things that really support this notion. One is that Lucrecia says that she has been seeing Sephiroth in her dreams of late (just as the black-cloaked ex-SOLDIER in Junon says that he had recently been feeling like putting on that black cloak), implying that she feels the call of the Reunion, but is not forced to go. Her dialogue in that scene shows that she's accepted herself, even though she despises herself.

The other is that after Cloud and Tifa fall into the Lifestream and Cloud's mind is pieced back together, he accepts himself for who he is and stands before AVALANCHE on the Highwind and openly admits his failures to these people that are closest to him. Though he doesn't really like himself, he's come to accept himself for who he is. Then, during the ending of the game, he easily purges the influence of JENOVA/Sephiroth from his mind during that mental struggle, whereas his mental fortitude had been extremely weak before he came to accept himself.

Those are brilliant observations... Great job man...

ok. well maybe your right.

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Originally Posted by DaremihC

I loved that mustache; R.I.P. Biggs Darklighter

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Huh? :eyebrow:

I'll just let you stew in that.

FF Biggs was named after Biggs Darklighter from Star Wars. He had a rad 1970s moustache.

Oh geez. I thought he was talking about the FFVII Biggs, but then was using Zack's 'fan last name'. I haven't seen Star Wars in a looonnngggg time, so please forgive my ignorance. :p

Doesn't Elmyra look like she's got an attitude! The Stance!!!, The STICK!!!!! HER SMILE!! Maybe she should have been part of the characters. She certainly looks like she wanted to be in that pic teehee

Zangan also taught Rude martial arts so he currently has two students who would make bitter rivals.
I think Elmyra should've been the name of Cloud's mom and Aerith's mother's name should've been Claire.
btw: were Wedge and Biggs in the orig. J-ver. or were they added by the Americans?

I think they would have been in the original J vs too because they were part of the storyline. Avalanche could not have just been Cloud Tifa n Barret, otherwise Barret wouldn't have really left would he? or he wouldn't really have had much to fight with

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

Zangan also taught Rude martial arts so he currently has two students who would make bitter rivals.

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That's never suggested by the game. The only student Zangan is known to have had is Tifa.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

btw: were Wedge and Biggs in the orig. J-ver. or were they added by the Americans?

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Yes, they were in the original version. By the way, the stuff added into the North American and International Versions was also added in by the Japanese, not the Americans or Europeans.

The Japanese must not be sure of themselves if they feel they have to add a bunch of extra stuff before they ship to the U.S

By the by, when it comes to stuff I'm making up about the story, I'll say "It's my theory" or put "lol" at the end from now on. K? :D

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

The Japanese must not be sure of themselves if they feel they have to add a bunch of extra stuff before they ship to the U.S

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They have deadlines that they have to meet. They put in as much as they can for the initial release, then add the rest in for the International Versions. And it was only for FFVII that the U.S. got the extra stuff.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

By the by, when it comes to stuff I'm making up about the story, I'll say "It's my theory" or put "lol" at the end from now on. K? :D

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Okay... but I can't imagine why you would bring up things that aren't part of the story in places that are discussing the story. Whatever floats your boat, though.

Lots of people tend to make up their own theories about the story even in a thread that's discussing the real story . . . I'm the only one who seems to be persecuted for it. I understand because I usually make it sound like I'm stating a fact, but it's just my opinion.
Were there any Squaresoft officials who said flatout that the whole plot and all the details of FF7 could be found right in the game?
'Cause if they didn't, then there's nothing wrong with a little imagination from the common fan.

(SPOILER) The most common thing believed by oldbies here at EOFF. 5 years ago Sephiroth, a SOLDIER named Zack, and a regular soldier named Cloud went to Nibleheim. There Sephiroth went into the Shinra Mansion and found Shinra documents within the basement. He was led to believe that we was genetically created, or possibly cloned, from Jenova at Nibleheim. He also believed Jenova to be a great Cetra (Ancient) In a fury about what he thought was his past he burned the town down and went towards the Mako Reactor to where his "Mother" was. Tifa, a student of Martial Arts master Zangan, went after him. Cloud and Zack also went after him. Sephiroth killed Zack and wounded Tifa. Cloud wounded Sephiroth and he fell into the Mako Stream. Zangan came in and got Tifa out. Hojo showed up and took Zack and Cloud for mako experimentation. The townspeople were replaced with Shinra staff. Zack utterly rejected to mako infusions but cloud was very receptive to them. It also made him very sick. Zack broke free taking Cloud with him. Shinra caught up to the group and filled Zacks head full of lead. Cloud escaped but with psychological issues as to the actions of him and Zack.

Sephiroth is the child of Hojo and Lucretia (Vincents wife). While still in the womb he was injected with Jenova cells.

Jenova is not a great ancient but an alien who fell upon the cetra and poisoned them with a virus.

The black hooded people were others like Cloud and Zack who were injected with Jenova cells.

The Sephiroth you follow throughout the first disk is a clone. The real Sephiroth is trapped in Mako repairing his body where the reunion takes place. Cloud was the first to make it to the real Sephiroth.


Anything else?

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Originally Posted by theundeadhero

(SPOILER)Sephiroth killed Zack and wounded Tifa.

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(SPOILER)Zack wasn't killed by Sephiroth. Note that Zangan's letter to Tifa says that Hojo ordered all those still alive be rounded up for the experiment. Zack was still very much alive before Cloud went after Sephiroth on the catwalk above the heart of the Reactor, telling Cloud to kill Sephiroth. For that matter, I doubt he sustained a wound worse than Cloud's, which Cloud survived.

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Originally Posted by theundeadhero

(SPOILER)Sephiroth is the child of Hojo and Lucretia (Vincents wife).

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(SPOILER)Lucrecia was not Vincent's wife. In fact, the game doesn't even offer an indication that she liked him. She was an assistant to Professor Gast (as was Hojo) and Vincent was a Turk sent with them to Nibelheim to be their bodyguard.

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Originally Posted by theundeadhero

(SPOILER)The Sephiroth you follow throughout the first disk is a clone.

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(SPOILER)That one's up to debate. Personally, I think it's more likely that they were pieces of JENOVA's body (as JENOVA-BIRTH was a tentacle of JENOVA, and we see a fairly strong indication that the Sephiroth form at the City of the Ancients became JENOVA-LIFE, and see beyond all doubt that the one at the Whirlwind Maze became JENOVA-DEATH).

(SPOILER)

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Zack wasn't killed by Sephiroth.

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That was corrected later when I said Shinra soldiers killed him.

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Lucrecia was not Vincent's wife. In fact, the game doesn't even offer an indication that she liked him

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It was alluded to.

"I let the one I loved, the one I respected most, face the worst."

That would be Lucretia for her suffering over her Son, Sephiroth.

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That one's up to debate. Personally, I think it's more likely that they were pieces of JENOVA's body (as JENOVA-BIRTH was a tentacle of JENOVA, and we see a fairly strong indication that the Sephiroth form at the City of the Ancients became JENOVA-LIFE, and see beyond all doubt that the one at the Whirlwind Maze became JENOVA-DEATH).

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My belief is Jenova herself was manipulating them through their Jenova cell infusions. At the Whirwind Maze she used the cells to mutate it into Jenova-Death. The Jenova virus did mutate people into monsters. Where would the pieces of Jenova come from? If Jenny could move about and do things with her own body then why not just do it herself instead of manipulating people with Jenova Cells through Sephiroth. Sephiroth wanted to free her and fuse with her to become a God.

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Originally Posted by theundeadhero

(SPOILER)

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Zack wasn't killed by Sephiroth.

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That was corrected later when I said Shinra soldiers killed him.

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You didn't correct the point where you said it, however.

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Originally Posted by theundeadhero

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Lucrecia was not Vincent's wife. In fact, the game doesn't even offer an indication that she liked him

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It was alluded to.

"I let the one I loved, the one I respected most, face the worst."

That would be Lucretia for her suffering over her Son, Sephiroth.

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(SPOILER)That doesn't allude to her being his wife. Loving someone doesn't automatically make them your wife. She didn't love him. o.O He loved her. She didn't love him, but loved Hojo. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by theundeadhero

(SPOILER)If Jenny could move about and do things with her own body then why not just do it herself instead of manipulating people with Jenova Cells through Sephiroth. Sephiroth wanted to free her and fuse with her to become a God.

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(SPOILER)You're ignoring that JENOVA's tentacle is laying on the floor of the cargo ship after JENOVA-BIRTH is defeated. And JENOVA was manipulating the black-cloaked folks to bring them to the Reunion in order to get its Cells back.

Squall of SeeD is right, plain and simple.
(SPOILER)"The ability to change ones appearance . . . is the trait of Jenova."
That's why every time you're about to fight Sephiroth, you end up in a battle against Jenova.

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She didn't love him, but loved Hojo

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As said elsewhere I don't remember that being mentioned. Maybe it is, but can you post it.

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And JENOVA was manipulating the black-cloaked folks to bring them to the Reunion in order to get its Cells back.

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That's exactly what I said.

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Originally Posted by me

instead of manipulating people with Jenova Cells through Sephiroth.

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She was manipulating them to come towards Sephiroth because thats where she would get her cells back at.

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"The ability to change ones appearance . . . is the trait of Jenova."
That's why every time you're about to fight Sephiroth, you end up in a battle against Jenova.

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And those injected with Jenova cells would have that trait to change appearance.

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Originally Posted by theundeadhero

And those injected with Jenova cells would have that trait to change appearance.

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I just think "Sephiroth" was lying about that part to convince Cloud that he was a clone. Was there a point in the game where "Sephiroth" changed HIS appearance?

My opinion is that Jenova or rather it's limbs, changed form to become Sephiroth and lead Cloud to the promised land. Knowing that informing Cloud of his unfortunate experiences at SOLDIER would turn him, "Sephiroth" lied to Cloud about clones being able to change form. Actually, the "clones" are just regular people from SOLDIER who were injected with Jenova Cells.

Jenova probably used this deception to cause every other clone to go insane and search for the "Promised Land" as well.

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My opinion is that Jenova or rather it's limbs, changed form to become Sephiroth and lead Cloud to the promised land. Knowing that informing Cloud of his unfortunate experiences at SOLDIER would turn him, "Sephiroth" lied to Cloud about clones being able to change form. Actually, the "clones" are just regular people from SOLDIER who were injected with Jenova Cells.

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Oh, so true, so very true. Because we know for a FACT that the Crater is the Promised Land. I totally agree with you.

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Was there a point in the game where "Sephiroth" changed HIS appearance?

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Sephiroth was a normal looking human five years ago. Then when you see him again in the Northern Crater he's mostly human but his legs are all tentacle Kishi style. At the end he totally morphs into the monster you fight. Sure, he's the last boss, but it's easy enough to follow that he morphed using the Jenny cells in him.

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Knowing that informing Cloud of his unfortunate experiences at SOLDIER would turn him, "Sephiroth" lied to Cloud about clones being able to change form. Actually, the "clones" are just regular people from SOLDIER who were injected with Jenova Cells.

Jenova probably used this deception to cause every other clone to go insane and search for the "Promised Land" as well.

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Jenova wasn't just calling Cloud, she was calling all the injected. Your forgetting one thing though. It Jenny was free to use different limbs to do all these different things, then why didn't she just free herself and go after those injected with her cells. She needed them to become free. She was most easily able to seduce Sephiroth, making him want to fuse with his "Mother", because he was so infused with the cells. Sephiroth was her main concern. She needed to call the injected to him to help him so he would be ale to free her. They morph into pieces of Jenova through their Cell infusions.

What're you saying? None of the clones ever did that. "Sephy" or rather as I said "Jenny disguised as Sephy" killed off all the clones to take their spirit energy. If the clones could change form at any time, how come you don't need to battle them in Nibelheim when they're all over the place?

Because Jenny didn't want you to. She kills them off to gather the energy herself once it seems Cloud will make it to Sephiroth. She didn't before because there might be a chance one of them makes it to the crater. She controls those infused with the cells. She controls weather the cells mutate them or not. Thats why they just don't mutate on their own at any time. Only when she feels it's the right time to do it. It's obvious she can control those with her cells because of the things she makes Cloud do.