Will someone please broaden my brain cells and give me a clearer image about why this has a major impact on everything, I know we continually battle this "Rebirth" but I don't know, did I miss something huge? Probably.. :(
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Will someone please broaden my brain cells and give me a clearer image about why this has a major impact on everything, I know we continually battle this "Rebirth" but I don't know, did I miss something huge? Probably.. :(
JENOVA's important to the story for the following reasons:
Some thirty years before the main events of the game, Professor Gast of Shin-Ra Inc. discovered an apparently dead being in a geological stratum. He named the creature "JENOVA" and made an error in identifiying it as being the body of an Ancient (otherwise known as the Cetra).
He then conducted experiments in an effort to bring forth one with the abilities of the Cetra into the present age. His assistant Hojo and another assistant, Lucrecia, had conceived a child together. Hojo and Lucrecia offered up their unborn child and Lucrecia herself to experimentation. Believing JENOVA to be an Ancient, some of JENOVA's Cells were injected into Lucrecia's womb where they melded with the developing body of Sephiroth.
However, JENOVA was not a Cetra, but an offworld being that came to the Planet some 2,000 years before the main events of the game. It released a virus (possibly its own Cells) among most of the Cetra, it transforming them into monsters and driving them insane. A small band of Cetra who had eluded JENOVA united in an assault on the creature and somehow successfully sealed it away in the Planet.
In the meantime, the Planet had created five large monsters with which to battle against JENOVA. These were the WEAPONs. However, the Planet didn't use them once JENOVA was sealed away (for some reason) and put them in stasis, to awaken once again in the event that the Planet was in a crisis.
JENOVA's landing -- either with its own mass or that of Meteor -- caused the gaping wound in the Planet known as the Northern Crater, a wound that has not yet healed in the 2,000 years since JENOVA's arrival and confinement. According to Ifalna, the mother of Aerith, the Planet can never fully heal so long as JENOVA remains, and the being itself wasn't dead after being discovered by Gast and could reawaken at any time.
JENOVA's Cells were injected into folks aside from Lucrecia, by the way, including the residents of the original Nibelheim who survived Sephiroth's massacre there (all save Tifa, who Zangan took to safety), Cloud, Zack, and all members of SOLDIER. It is also through the JENOVA Cells that JENOVA/Sephiroth is able to control, manipulate, or otherwise influence certain People, whether it be outright control as in the case of the black-cloaked folks (the former residents of Nibelheim), manipulation (as in the case of Cloud), or slight influence (as in the case of the Junon Accessory Shop owner, a former member of SOLDIER who suddenly felt the urge to don a black cloak). The game suggests that one's self-awareness, or -- more accurately -- their acceptance of who they are is the determining factor in how suspectible they are to the influence being exerted over them.
It's possible -- and I would say likely -- that JENOVA itself awoke when Sephiroth was in Nibelheim and influenced his mind, causing him to lose his sanity there, and that it was influencing him throughout the game, with the two essentially becoming one, or -- more accurately -- Sephiroth becoming an extension of JENOVA's will, possibly even believing ideas he might have had were his own when they were just being fed to him.
That last paragraph is conjecture, mind you, but what is assured is that JENOVA is the unifying plot device of the entire game through which most of the main plot points are a result or are somehow affected.
That was very thorough and cleared out a lot of things, thank you :)
Jenova is one of the reasons that Sephiroth went crazy. If I remember correctly.
thanks a lot peoples! I got the idea now, I just must pop the disk in cause I got to the 2nd disk and I gave it up cause I just spaced out playing it and I forgot what I was doing so I was doing it all wrong but after I finish IX ima go back to it :D
Whoa. Nice summary there Squall of SeeD. I also must agree with the idea that when Sephiroth first visited Nibelheim, is when Jenova was awoken by him. Then she/it was able to influence Sephiroth as we can see.
I'll just add that it's also pretty certain that Jenova is capable of close-range manipulation even without the target having her cells. Tifa and other party members were affected by Jenova/Sephiroth's power. They were vulnerable to the illusions, if nothing else.
Which is possibly why Ghast believed Jenova was an ancient. He KNEW that the ancients looked just like humans, yet believed Jenova- who didn't look anything close to human- was an ancient. And, she probably manipulated them into injecting her cells into other beings. I could see Hojo using his child as an experiment, but Lucrecia, too? And for all we know, Hojo was a decent guy before going all psycho. Ghast helped the process, too, so one must question how fishy that whole scenario was.
It's also (conjecture) quite likely she helped the "invention" of MAKO power extraction. Something that came shortly after her return. Weakening the planet enough to make her second play at consuming it, as was her original intention. Sephiroth's "god" idea was something that Jenova (and her race) was likely doing for millenia untold before she was stopped.
That's a different matter, though. It's one thing to manipulate another's free will, and altogether something else to generate illusions of light patterns.Quote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
How would he have known this? The implication given by the game is that he discovered JENOVA before he met Ifalna. She would have been able to immediately identify JENOVA for what it was. As for it not looking at all similar to a Homo Sapien, I must disagree:Quote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
Linkage 1.
Linkage 2.
Sure there's some differences, but the shape of a Female Homo Sapien is there. Anyway, the things to consider in regard to Gast's classification of JENOVA are these:
1) He had never seen one before and didn't know what they looked like.
2) JENOVA's body did bear some similarities to a Female Homo Sapien.
3) Something I'm about to get to...
Ifalna, a Cetra -- and likely a bit of an authority on the matter -- said that JENOVA was still unconscious a good 8 years after the discovery of JENOVA and a good 17 years before the Nibelheim massacre:Quote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
Quote:
"Even though Jenova is confined, it could come back to life at
some time..."
"The Planet has not fully healed itself yet. It is still watching
Jenova."
To offer a bit of conjecture of my own, being a scientist, as well, her desire on that level to take part in such an experiment is obvious, but there's also the need to remember what the purpose of the experiment was: To create another being with the abilities of the Cetra.Quote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
JENOVA was believed to be a Cetra at that time. The Cetra were believed to be able to access the Promised Land, in which case one iwth the abilities of the Cetra would likely be regarded as inherently holy and capable of leading mankind into a realm of supreme happiness. Taking both possibilities into account, it's not so difficult to understand Lucrecia's reasoning.
It's not said that the invention of this process coincided with the approval of the JENOVA Project. What's said is that the approval of the use of Mako Reactor 1 coincided with the approval of the JENOVA Project. It's quite common for more than one thing to be discussed at a single board meeting, and if the use of such a thing was being approved, this may indicate that it was either already built or had already been proposed as an idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by usduna
Anyway, again, JENOVA was unconscious at this time.
We don't know what JENOVA's intent in coming to the Planet Gaia was, really. Deciding on absorbing the Lifestream could have been a later development. If it was just there to absorb Spirit Energy, that begs the question of why it bothered to leave the Northern Crater and attack the Cetra at all, seeing as how they were leaving the Knowlespole anyway. JENOVA could have just landed, sat real cozy down in that big hole and sucked up the Lifestream if that were the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by usduna
Of course, in the even that JENOVA needed a host body of someone i]of[/i] the Planet to absorb the Lifestream, one has to wonder why the being showed itself to all of them and tried to infect them all, rather than leading off one way stray Cetra and taking its body.
Considering that JENOVA arrived and didn't do either of the things it could have done were it there to absorb the Lifestream, and also considering that JENOVA used illusions of the Cetra's dead relatives to get close enough to them to infect them, the implication to me is that they were intentionally sought out and targeted. Your thoughts?
If you want to understand the whole biz about Jenova, then go see John Carpenter's The Thing. Jenova is based a lot on the monster from that movie IMO. I.e. It can imitate organisms, take over and covert other organisms into other things (e.g. Cetra -> Monsters), is very much sentient and intelligent being etc.
Whoa..Jenova stands more than what I actually thought. It's quite a freak-accident in a way though. FFVII does have an interesting story lot after reading this, well maybe not interesting but with a horror scare too. :D
For one thing, go to the research lists at Nibelhiem. When Sephi's reading, and ranting to cloud afterwards, it was known that humans and cetra carried a direct, common, heritage. Maybe they wouldn't have known *exactly* what the cetra looked like- but they could be fairly sure it didn't look like the barely humanoid FREAK that is Jenova's form.
Sephiroth also pointed out Jenova had direct powers to shape-shift. To change itself to be what other's want it to be. He claimed that's how "cloud" was formed- whether this was just him being a bastard, or because it's the truth, I cannot say. Mind control-type abilities that didn't require direct infection.
And, my own theory is that Jenova wanted to "reproduce" itself. It came down, made a mess of the planet, and tried to used the dominant lifeform to grow a new one of itself, as well as the meal. It's how a species like that would probably work. A virus, a plague, moving from world to world.
But the Mako plants weren't built until *right after* the war with Wutai ended- they said that in the game, if you were paying attention to some of the side stuff. Sephi was made first- he was probably an late teen during the conflict, it was shown how powerful he was, so they made imitations and created SOLDIER.
And there is absolutely no reason to believe Ifalna had the FIRST clue what Jenova was capable of. It nearly destroyed her people, it was capable of hiding it's presence dozens of different ways, and the planet created super-monsters known as WEAPONs to combat it. It's unlikely anyone had any idea what Jenova could do until witnessing it. Even the planet itself.
It's important to note here that Hojo impregnated Lucrecia with the intention of giving their unborn child Jenova cell injections, and that Gast had no knowledge of this.Quote:
He then conducted experiments in an effort to bring forth one with the abilities of the Cetra into the present age. His assistant Hojo and another assistant, Lucrecia, had conceived a child together. Hojo and Lucrecia offered up their unborn child and Lucrecia herself to experimentation. Believing JENOVA to be an Ancient, some of JENOVA's Cells were injected into Lucrecia's womb where they melded with the developing body of Sephiroth.
I could be remembering this incorrectly, but I don't think anyone survived Nibelheim outside of Cloud and them. The residents of Nibelheim you see in disc 1 were people hired by Shinra, with failed Sephiroth-clones mixed in.Quote:
JENOVA's Cells were injected into folks aside from Lucrecia, by the way, including the residents of the original Nibelheim who survived Sephiroth's massacre there
That makes it sound far more complicated than it really is. Jenova(and in turn, Sephiroth) could exert some measure of control over others that were injected with Jenova cells. Plain and simple.Quote:
It is also through the JENOVA Cells that JENOVA/Sephiroth is able to control, manipulate, or otherwise influence certain People, whether it be outright control as in the case of the black-cloaked folks (the former residents of Nibelheim), manipulation (as in the case of Cloud), or slight influence (as in the case of the Junon Accessory Shop owner, a former member of SOLDIER who suddenly felt the urge to don a black cloak). The game suggests that one's self-awareness, or -- more accurately -- their acceptance of who they are is the determining factor in how suspectible they are to the influence being exerted over them.
That history is very wordy - overly so in some areas, to the extent which could obfuscate the truth - and tends to jump back and forth. However, it's accurate.
If you just play the game and pay attention, it's all-but-fact that Jenova exerted some measure of control over Sephiroth. I agree that it's very likely that that control was more manipulation than mind-control, and that Sephiroth eventually came to truly believe in what he was told.Quote:
It's possible -- and I would say likely -- that JENOVA itself awoke when Sephiroth was in Nibelheim and influenced his mind, causing him to lose his sanity there, and that it was influencing him throughout the game, with the two essentially becoming one, or -- more accurately -- Sephiroth becoming an extension of JENOVA's will, possibly even believing ideas he might have had were his own when they were just being fed to him.
Jenova was not able to directly influence anyone that didn't have her cells. She tricked Barret in Disc 2 by transforming her body into a likeness of Tifa. She could change the landscape via illusions(such as the "flashbacks" in disc 2 in the North Crater), but she could not exert any amount of control over anyone who did not contain her cells.Quote:
I'll just add that it's also pretty certain that Jenova is capable of close-range manipulation even without the target having her cells. Tifa and other party members were affected by Jenova/Sephiroth's power. They were vulnerable to the illusions, if nothing else.
It's possible, though wild conjecture. It is somewhat plausible, however, especially considering that Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells(therefore Jenova could have had some measure of control over him throughout the game).Quote:
Which is possibly why Ghast believed Jenova was an ancient. He KNEW that the ancients looked just like humans, yet believed Jenova- who didn't look anything close to human- was an ancient. And, she probably manipulated them into injecting her cells into other beings. I could see Hojo using his child as an experiment, but Lucrecia, too? And for all we know, Hojo was a decent guy before going all psycho. Ghast helped the process, too, so one must question how fishy that whole scenario was.
She was suckered into it by Hojo's "charms" and her own scientific mind. Remember, she tried to escape with Vincent when she feared something would go wrong. Jenova did not and could not control her(at least, not before she had already been injected).Quote:
I could see Hojo using his child as an experiment, but Lucrecia, too?
Is it ever said when mako was discovered as an energy source? I can only speculate that it would've been well before Jenova.Quote:
It's also (conjecture) quite likely she helped the "invention" of MAKO power extraction. Something that came shortly after her return.
There's absolutely no way to know what Jenova's original or secondary intentions were. I believe that she was, indeed, trying to destroy the Planet during the game, but have no idea as to why she was there in the first place, nor are there any facts in the game with which to base any sort of speculation on.Quote:
Weakening the planet enough to make her second play at consuming it, as was her original intention.
Gast knew about it:Quote:
It's important to note here that Hojo impregnated Lucrecia with the intention of giving their unborn child Jenova cell injections, and that Gast had no knowledge of this.
Quote:
After that, a child was born to Lucrecia...
That child's name is...
Sephiroth...
Vincent
"This body is... the punishment that's been given to me..."
"I was unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo..."
"And Lucrecia... I was unable to stop them..."
"All that I was able to do was watch... That is my punishment..."
Quote:
Sephiroth "Yes." "Professor Gast, leader of the Jenova Project and genius scientist, produced me."
Again, JENOVA bore the form of a Homo Sapien, only with blue skin, wing-like things, and a tendril-like thing in place of her arm. It still looked similar to a Homo Sapien.Quote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
When do they say this? If you're referring to the following dialogue, you might want to have payed attention to the sentence that followed the mention of Mako:Quote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
(Bolded for emphasis.)Quote:
Cid
"You know Shinra developed a lot of techological gadgets during
the meaningless war, right?"
"Now it's a Mako company, but in the old days it was a weapons
manufacturer."
"Well, they came up with a Rocket Engine."
The Rocket was made after the war. The fact that the journal in Nibelheim -- written some thirty years before the main events of the game -- says that Mako Reactor Number 1 was approved for use tells us that it was either already constructed or the plans for its construction were already in place. We don't know exactly when it was built.
You mean aside from being a Cetra, folks who saw what it could do, and also being able to communicate with the Planet?Quote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
The Planet would know if the creature was awake or not. It had sort of been the cause of that gaping wound that it had been trying to heal for the past 2,000 years and the Planet had been watching it in all that time. Thus, Ifalna would know if the creature was awake or not. It's a safe assumption to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
The game never says this. This is all Hojo ever says in regard to his child:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Note here that Hojo says he offered Lucrecia to Professor Gast's JENOVA Project and that they took the Cells of JENOVA and injected them into Lucrecia. He didn't do that alone. It was Gast's project.Quote:
Hojo
"Ha, ha, ha..."
"I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova
Project."
"When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of
Jenova..."
There's also the quote that Luthien Rogue presented for further confirmation of this.
...The black-cloaked folks were the residents of the original Nibelheim. And, yes, there were survivors aside from Cloud and Zack for Hojo to capture. Zangan's letter to Tifa suggests this quite plainly:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Further, when visiting Nibelheim in the present, the two black-cloaked folks in one of the upstair bedrooms were obviously the two children that had been there five years before.Quote:
"As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just
arriving. I recall a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the
troops to gather up everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know
what type of experiment he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let
them have my dearest student."
How did you think Sephiroth Clones were made? They're not just grown in a tube. They're People that have been infused with Mako and injected with JENOVA's Cells:
Quote:
Cloud
"I'm physically built like someone on SOLDIER."
"Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."
"It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of
SOLDIER."
Cloud
"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
"Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
Except it really is that complicated, as there are varying degress of control which can be exerted depending on the nature of the Person theirself. A former member of SOLDIER in Junon (the Junon Accessory Shop owner) feels the call of the Reunion and even dons a black cloak, yet he is not forced to go and retains his own personality and is otherwise unaffected, whereas the black-cloaked folks (the former residents of Nibelheim) are forced to go and utterly lose their own personalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
The game shows us that acceptance of self has everything to do with whether or not one is controlled. Let's take into account that Cloud didn't like himself. He didn't accept himself for who he was. He even hid his face from Tifa and the rest of Nibelheim with the exception of his mother when he returned there after failing to become a member of SOLDIER. Zack, however, a member of SOLDIER, was shown to be confident and rather cocky. Aerith even describes him as a ladies' man. If that doesn't convey that he was self-confident, they couldn't have made it more plain without saying "He was self-confident."
Afte Zack and Cloud are captured along with the rest of the survivors of the Nibelheim massacre, Cloud has a reaction to JENOVA's Cells, whereas Zack does not:
(From the Escapee Reports in the back of the Shinra Mansion library.)
Further, the effect rendered unto Cloud is very similar to what we see rendered unto the other residents of Nibelheim (the black-cloaked folks): He was nearly catatonic and quite incoherent when he tried to speak. When taken control of at one point during the game, he even babbles about calling Meteor, just as the black-cloaked folks babbled about finding the Black Materia or Sephiroth or the Reunion.Quote:
Escapee Report No. 2
Description of the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him.
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.
Cloud didn't become like them, however, as he had a psyche that wasn't shattered to focus on: Zack's. Zack didn't succumb to those experiments because of his nature. He retained his sense of self completely. Cloud, someone who wasn't self-confident and didn't even like himself, lost his, simply because he didn't have a strong one.
In all honesty, how many People really are comfortable with themselves? Not many. Keeping that in mind, recall what Cloud said about members of SOLDIER:
"Weak People" like him. People that aren't comfortable with themselves. Most People.Quote:
Cloud
"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
"Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
"For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
"It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."
"But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing."
Recall something Cloud had asked Zack back in Nibelheim (it was during the Kalm Flashback, meaning the SOLDIER was actually Zack and the guard was actually Cloud):
Obviously, being someone who didn't like theirself, this would be something Cloud would be concerned about.Quote:
"Does someone in SOLDIER always have to be careful about what other people think?"
Now taking into account that we have established a very clear difference between Cloud, someone who didn't make it into SOLDIER, and Zack, someone who did, based on other People that fall into either group, we can make inferences concerning the effects JENOVA has on them.
In the cases of other normal folks, we find that they lose their personalities and become nearly vegetative and incoherent, completely subverted to JENOVA/Sephiroth's will. In the case of another member of SOLDIER (the Junon Accessory Shop owner), we find that he suffered only the faintest effects of the call of the Reunion, only donning a black cloak because he had recently been feeling like dressing up that way, despite it being "out of season." Considering that Zack -- another member of SOLDIER -- hadn't had a reaction to JENOVA's Cells in Nibelheim, we can infer that both Zack and the Junon Accessory Shop owner were self-confident and comfortable with who they were.
Let's examine someone else: Lucrecia. She despised herself, yet she had accepted herself for who she was:
Note that she said she had been dreaming of Sephiroth a lot "lately," the same as the Junon Accessory Shop fellow says he had "recently" been feeling like dressing up in a black cloak:Quote:
Lucrecia
"Lately, I dream a lot of Sephiroth... My dear, dear child."
"Ever since he was born I never got to hold him, even once..."
"Not even once. You can't call me his mother... That... is my
sin..."
In other words, she too felt the call of the Reunion, but it had only the faintest effects on her due to her accepting herself for who she was, even if she didn't like who she was.Quote:
"I used to be in SOLDIER. Recently, I've felt like dressing up like this... I don't know, it's out of season, but..."
Finally, in the case of Cloud, he too eventually accepts himself for who he was:
(From after his time in the Lifestream, when he admits to the rest of AVALANCHE that he was never in SOLDIER.)
Cloud admitted that he was weak. He accepted that he was weak. In other words, he accepted himself even if himself wasn't someone he liked.Quote:
Cloud
"I never was in SOLDIER."
"I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago,
about being in SOLDIER."
"I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to
SOLDIER......"
"I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from
my friend Zack..."
"And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen
in my life....."
"And I continued to play the charade as if it were true."
...
"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
"Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
"For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
"It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."
"But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing."
This has a profound effect during the game's ending, when Cloud is either purging the last of JENOVA/Sephiroth's influence from his mind, or fending off one final attempt on its/his/their part to control him (the one-on-one duel between Cloud and Sephiroth's form). Having recently accepted himself, Cloud easily is successful. We know that this event -- whatever it was -- took place in Cloud's mind, as we saw his astral form be pulled out of his body before the battle, and his real body had been standing on that cliff the entire time the battle was going on, made obvious when the camera switched back to his body still standing there as the Northern Crater was caving in around him.
Something else worthy of note pertains to just why Cloud and the residents of Nibelheim lost their sense of self when they were experimented on by Hojo. Recall that they were infused with Mako. Mako is condensed Spirit Energy. Spirit Energy retains the knowledge (memories) of those who have lived and died in the past, made obvious by Sephiroth's explanation of Materia and Bugenhagen's explanation of the cycle of life and death:
Quote:
"...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the
materia."
"Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic..... or so they say."
Note that Bugenhagen makes note of People's consciousness here, as well.Quote:
"Eventually... all humans die. What happens to them after they
die?"
"The body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much
everyone knows. What about their consciousness, their hearts and their
souls?"
"The soul too returns to the Planet."
In other words, Mako is going to contain the memories of People who have lived and died in the past. Being infused with Mako would be like a surge of memories flooding into one's head. If someone isn't even comfortable with theirself to begin with, how are they going to handle the memories of other People filling their head? They'll lose their place amongst what's there, losing theirself.
Zack didn't succumb to this.
To simplify all this, read this summary:
1) Cloud, like most People, didn't accept himself for who he was. He was weak. Most People are likewise weak.
2) Zack was comfortable with acknowelding himself for who he was, as were members of SOLDIER. Zack was mentally strong. Members of SOLDIER were mentally strong and barely affected at all by the call of the Reunion.
3) Lucrecia didn't like herself, but -- like Zack -- accepted herself for who she was. She was mentally strong enough to be only slightly affected by the call of the Reunion.
4) Once Cloud accepted himself for who he was, even if he didn't like who he was, he became strong enough to be free of JENOVA/Sephiroth's influence. In other words, by accepting that he was weak, he became strong, because he was accepting himself.
Yes, it is a complicated matter, but it really is that complicated. The fact alone that there were varying degrees of control or influence exerted is enough to show that it's more complicated than "JENOVA's in them. They can be manipulated."
There is no event involving her and Vincent trying to escape together. Their only moments alone together are when they are walking through Nibelheim -- considering that Vincent was doubtless sent there to protect the scientists, it's no mystery as to why he would be escorting Lucrecia when she went to town -- and then at the front of Nibelheim when Vincent makes what appears to be a declaration of love, only to be rejected and find her in Hojo's arms kissing him a moment later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Besides, if Vincent and Lucrecia had been trying to leave, it would have been fairly simple for him to just shoot Gast and Hojo.
how can you find it so easy to explain things so clearly? i couldn't fo that it's the reason i dont get A's in English Literature
Cloud was mentally weak at the beggining of the game but never showed it untill you saw him become manipulated, Jenova may have onc e looked more human before she was imprisoned but we dont know do we. one thing that confuses alot of gamers is that the Sephiroth you fight is an illusion once they see his body they get confused and make stuff up but its really hard to explain the right way im sorry i cannot do it though
Squall of Seed I applaud you..... I have something to show you... IF I can find the link....
EDIT --
I found the link I was talking about, you might have seen this before: http://www.gamingw.net/articles/55
A friend showed me that about 6-7 months ago... I found it very interesting! :D
your knowledge is brilliant i'm sure some people who know how to pay attention could learn from these things Squall of seed and become less idiotic
everything he says it very thought out... and almost flawless <_<Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoden
where does he get this stuff from how old are you 19 or something?
is that reference towards me or him? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoden
but I'm glad people are starting to be aware that JENOVA has controlled EVERYTHING that has happened SINCE she/it became conscious
yeah i already knew most of it but its hard to explain it to someone who hasnt played the game. Jenova practically took over Sephiroth when he was going crazy about who he was making him extra vulnrable to Jenova's power therefore that was the last of the real Sephiroth really i wonder what it would have been like if Cloud and the true sephiroth went one on one or was that the real final battle?
did you read my edited post. the link contains lots of stuff but its really longQuote:
Originally Posted by Shoden
Do you people have nothing better to do than to memorize/look over FF7 scripts? xD
I have seen that article. In my own opinion, it's bloody horrible. Here's some reasons why:Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudStrife48
I have seen that article. In my own opinion, it's bloody horrible. Here's some reasons why:Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudStrife48
(SPOILER)There's also the fact that Sephiroth was very much out of his head at the time, and that he had a large gut wound. Granted, Cloud received a gut wound, as well, but one that should have killed him. His body would react with desperation before it succumbed to the wound it had just received. The greater the magnitude of a stimulus that a body receives, the greater its adrenaline-charged reaction will be before it gives in.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article Written By John Brittenham
Aside from Cloud's emotions fueling him with a desire for vengeance and to prevent Sephiroth from escaping, his body would have reacted to the stressful stimulus it had just received with a powerful moment of adrenaline-charged desperation. That's how the human body reacts in moments of great stress. For that moment, Cloud was stronger than Sephiroth, but only for that moment. He had never received the training Sephiroth had received, nor had he been enhanced with Mako showers and JENOVA's Cells. But that moment of desperation pushed him past the strength that Sephiroth had at that moment.
After lifting Sephiroth and throwing him over the catwalk with his last bit of strength, Cloud succumbs to his wound and slumps to the ground. Unlike Cloud, Sephiroth's wound hadn't prevented him from remaining on his feet and moving about. The stimulus Cloud's body received had been greater than that which Sephiroth's body had received, and, thus, pushed him further before his body gave out.
(SPOILER)In regard to this, I simply wish to point out that the battle was a mental one to begin with. Before this point, Cloud's will had been weak enough for him to be controlled as his sense of self-awareness -- and acceptance of that self -- was much weaker than it is during the game's ending. After coming to terms with who he was, accepting who he was, even if he didn't like the reality of his own self, and admitting the truth of who he was to the rest of AVALANCHE, he became self-aware and powerful by accepting his weaknesses. He became strong because he accepted that he was weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article Written By John Brittenham
While I personally like to think that this battle was Cloud fending off one final attempt on JENOVA/Sephiroth's part to control him, taking him as a permanent host seeing as how Sephiroth's body had been destroyed, there's also the possibility that it was nothing more than representing that Cloud was purging the influence of Sephiroth/JENOVA from his mind.
(SPOILER)Aside from the fact that JENOVA is never shown to have power over anyone but those in whom its Cells have been injected, there's the logical fact that something like Mako Reactors would have taken a great deal of time to design and build. That the approval for the use of the first one came on the same day as the approval of the JENOVA Project in no way defeats this fact. Being that the wording of the journal log is "The use of Mako Reactor number one approved for use," this suggests the possibility that the structure was already built and in place, and that the approval for its use came down on the same day as the approval of the JENOVA Project. It could also mean that the plans had been in the works for a while, and that they were just then being given the go ahead. It's quite common for corporations to examine and approve or disapprove as many projects as possible in one board meeting.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article Written By John Brittenham
In either case, that's irrelevant as that Ifalna -- a Cetra, one of those who could communicate with the Planet -- speaks of JENOVA as being unconscious at this time, stating that it may wake up later:
(SPOILER)It's illogical to assume that this creature was orchestrating events when it wasn't even cognizant.Quote:
(SPOILER)"Even though Jenova is confined, it could come back to life at
some time..."
"The Planet has not fully healed itself yet. It is still watching
Jenova."
Further, thinking logically, if JENOVA had the power to manipulate just anyone as the author's article seems to claim, there's no reason that it would have allowed itself to be locked-up in a Mako Reactor for twenty-five years while some of its Cells were constantly being used in experiments, even fed through tubes into pods right outside its chamber.
The author doesn't go to any great lengths to explain why JENOVA would have needed Mako Reactors to weaken the Planet in the first place. For that matter, it's the game never says what JENOVA's intentions before falling into the Lifestream might have been.
(SPOILER)The war that took place occurred after the Mako Reactors were already in existance. We know it happened some fifteen years before the main events of the game, as Elmyra mentions having found Aerith about that long before the main events of the game, having found her as she went to the Sector Seven Train Station every day to see if her husband had returned from the war:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article Written By John Brittenham
(SPOILER)The Mako Reactors were approved for use fifteen years before that. Shin-Ra was already in control of much of the world. The fact that they were fighting Wutai to begin with shows that they were seeking domination.Quote:
(SPOILER)Barret
"...What did you say? But, aren't you her mother?"
Elmyra
"...Not her real mother. Oh... it must have been 15 years ago..."
"...during the war. My husband was sent to the front. Some far
away place called Wutai."
(SPOILER)SOLDIERs had the capacity to resist JENOVA's control, as is made evident by the merchant in the Junon Accessory Shop, who had once been a member of SOLDIER. He feels JENOVA's call, even donning a black cloak as the experiments from Nibelheim had done, but is never pulled away to the Reunion, nor are the members of SOLDIER in the Shin-Ra Headquarters that AVALANCHE fights there.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article Written By John Brittenham
In other words, Mr. Brittenham's article is illogical yet again at this point.
(SPOILER)This may just be conjecture, but based on my study of the game's script, I would say that it doesn't suggest that the Cetra migrated from one Planet to another. What the game does tell us after all is that they were from the Planet:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article Written By John Brittenham
(SPOILER)Note that Aerith says they "unlock" the Planet. This no doubt means "cultivate," which Ifalna says the Cetra did to the land at the Knowlespole. In other words, I take this to mean the Cetra were nomads: They would cultivate an area of the Planet and then move to another and cultivate it:Quote:
(SPOILER)Aerith
"All I know is..."
"The Cetra were born from the Planet, speak with the Planet, and
unlock the Planet."
(SPOILER)This is usually what is interpreted as meaning that they were from another world, but "Planet" here more than likely means "land," as in "Settle/Cultivate the land" and then move on.Quote:
(SPOILER)Sephiroth
"This Planet originally belonged to the Cetra. Cetra was a itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on..."
The only declaration regarding the origin of the Cetra that we receive from a Cetra states that they were born from the Planet.
(SPOILER)"Heiress" was not intended in regard to Aerith's name. The source was most likely the Hebrew word for "Flower": "Erith." She sells flowers. Considering that "Tifa" and "Sephiroth" were also drawn from Hebrew -- and that Aerith's age in the game's present was 22 years, 22 also being the number of paths constituting the Sephiroth -- it's a safe assumption to draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article Written By John Brittenham
(SPOILER)Some of the Cetra chose to stop living the way of the Cetra, tearing down parts of nature to build shelters for themselves, before JENOVA's arrival. Some of the Cetra become Common Homo Sapiens without JENOVA having a hand in things at all:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article Written By John Brittenham
(SPOILER)Had they not been performing the migrations beforehand, it would have been quite difficult for them to have "stopped their migrations and elected to lead an easier life," as they wouldn't have been doing it to begin with.Quote:
(SPOILER)Sephiroth
"But, those that disliked the journey appeared. Those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier life."
"They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without giving one whit in return!"
(He looks down.)
Sephiroth
"Those are your ancestors."
(SPOILER)Holy did not neutralize JENOVA's influence within Sephiroth, nor did it remove the JENOVA Cells from within Cloud. Aside from the fact that this was Cloud's astral form, rather than his physical form, from which JENOVA's Cells couldn't be removed in the first place, Holy is a wall of white-blue light, not green tendrils of energy. What was seen in that scene was the Lifestream:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article Written By John Brittenham
Holy:
Linkage 1.
Lifestream:
Linkage 2.
Cloud even calls it the Lifestream:
Linkage 3.
The green tendrils didn't enter Cloud, by the way, nor did the red ones that Sephiroth dispersed into. The two streams collided in above him: More linkage.
As for the number three thing, I could draw up some kind of triangle between Cloud, Jessie, and Johnny if I tried hard enough.
Finally, it goes without saying that Aerith didn't come back to life. In addition to logic, Advent Children's trailers have made that clear.
While I still disagree with Squall on some relatively minor points(and there's no way in HELL I'm going to scroll through all that mess), I did skim over the article and his responses, and have to admit that the article is a load of conjecture and made-up crap.
Sure, it's plausible. But so is the theory that Vincent is Sephiroth's father, and the Jenova=Lucrecia theory. It's not completely disproven in the game, but there's absolutely no factual evidence in the game to support the theory, which basically means it's a load of bull.
Whereas ignoring it means that the writers went to the trouble of putting that stuff in there for no reason and emphasising such things several times, Cloud even saying "But weak people like me get lost in the whole thing..." and him becoming mentally strong after accepting that he had been weak. It's not contradicted by the story, only supported. In fact, due to there being a varying degree of manipulation exhibited by those with JENOVA's Cells, the burden of an explanation falls on someone attempting to discredit it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Your assumption requires assuming the writers didn't know what the hell they were throwing that stuff in for or why they were bothering to emphasise it.
Something like the "Vincent is Sephiroth's father" thing is contradicted by the story and the structure in which it was written, the revelation that Hojo was the father coming as a last-minute revelation in terms of storytelling. That isn't the case here, where the story only serves to suggest it time and time again.
Actually, some parts of it were totally disproven. Holy was not the only thing that was capable of stopping Meteor. The Lifestream was what stopped Meteor in the end. That's just one of a couple dozen flaws I spotted in that article. However, I don't have Squall's patience, and, since I pretty much agree with him, I will just advise anyone with a differing viewpoint not to argue with him, as you will die of old age before the arguement is over. :D
That makes absolutely no sense. The structure of logic and basic arguments dictate that anyone suggesting a theory has the burden of proof. It's the basic principle on how our entire society(with the sole exception of religion) is built.Quote:
Whereas ignoring it means that the writers went to the trouble of putting that stuff in there for no reason and emphasising such things several times, Cloud even saying "But weak people like me get lost in the whole thing..." and him becoming mentally strong after accepting that he had been weak. It's not contradicted by the story, only supported. In fact, due to there being a varying degree of manipulation exhibited by those with JENOVA's Cells, the burden of an explanation falls on someone attempting to discredit it.
Your assumption requires ignoring the fact that it's a freakin' game and requires assuming that every single thing has an existential significance. There's something called "game mechanics" and "this sounds cool; let's throw it in!"Quote:
Your assumption requires assuming the writers didn't know what the hell they were throwing that stuff in for or why they were bothering to emphasise it.
Suggest? Everything is based on very loose assumptions. There's absolutely nothing in the game which suggests that Jenova had any influence in the world before her cells were injected in people, and nothing to suggest that Jenova even could control people who did not have her cells.Quote:
Something like the "Vincent is Sephiroth's father" thing is contradicted by the story and the structure in which it was written, the revelation that Hojo was the father coming as a last-minute revelation in terms of storytelling. That isn't the case here, where the story only serves to suggest it time and time again.
No, Holy stopped Meteor. The Lifestream merely protected the Planet from being destroyed in the process(how much it actually helped Holy is unknown). There's nothing to suggest that the Lifestream could've stopped Meteor on its own.Quote:
Actually, some parts of it were totally disproven. Holy was not the only thing that was capable of stopping Meteor. The Lifestream was what stopped Meteor in the end.
True, we don't know that the Lifestream could have stopped Meteor on its own. But we do know that Holy couldn't do it on it's own. Arguing that Holy stopped Meteor but didn't keep the Planet from being destroyed (which is what the Lifestream did), is moronic. That's like saying "I caught a fly ball, but I didn't stop it from being a home run". Destroying the Planet is what Meteor is doing. If Holy can't prevent that, than Holy is not stopping Meteor!Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
The theory is based on simple cause and affect things that the game shows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
1) Zack's someone comfortable with himself. He's a ladies' man. He accepts himself for who he is.
2) Cloud doesn't accept himself for who he is. He tries to hide who he is. His mind even takes on the persona of another person to a great extent so that he can even live with himself. None of that's saying a lot for his mental solidarity.
3) Zack doesn't have a reaction JENOVA's Cells.
4) Cloud has a reaction to JENOVA's Cells.
5) It's said that only the strongest may enter SOLDIER. Cloud calls himself weak. How has he displayed weakness? With his mind.
6) Another member of SOLDIER shows only the faintest signs of being affected by JENOVA, suggesting that -- like Zack -- he's got something that seperates him from Cloud.
7) What seperated Zack from Cloud? Pretty obviously it's their acceptance of theirselves. Aerith calls Zack a ladies' man. After asking Cloud if he's ever been on a date, when he replies "No," she says "No, just a mixed-up kid...."
8) Cloud is forced to come to terms with who he is and accept who he is. He then admits the true nature of himself to those closest to him. He has come to terms with who he is, accepting it.
9) All times before his acceptance of himself when his mind was entered by an outside force, his will was either completely subverted (such as when he handed over the Black Materia) or heavily bent (when he nearly crushed Aerith beneath the Buster Sword).
10) After accepting who he was, when the same being who had been bending his will was present in his mind once more, he easily purged them and their influence from within himself.
Are you not seeing the A to B nature of that?
Point A: He's not accepting himself for who he is. His mind is in denial about who he is. He's even taken on characteristics of someone he wanted to be like. He's being easily manipulated.
Linking Point: The false nature of what he had come to believe of himself and convince others of himself is brought to light and he accepts himself for who he is.
Point B: He now purges from his mind the influence of the who had been manipulating him as easily as they had been performing the manipulation.
Or do you have another theory for why this was so?
I write. I'm a writer. When I throw something into a story, it's there for a reason. I imagine this to be the case with most writers, especially those on a professional level. If this story had subtleties to the extent of Aerith's age being 22 while there are 22 paths constituting the Sephiroth, or Sephiroth's right arm in the Safer Sephiroth battle being obviously composed of JENOVA (an obvious play on "The right hand of God"), or JENOVA meaning "New God," or Tifa's name being derived from "Tifaret," the central node on the Sephiroth, which represents beauty, love and balance (she's pretty, she loves Cloud, and it is she who guides Cloud back to himself in the Lifestream and restores balance to his mind), then I would think something as blatant as "But weak people like me get lost in the whole thing..." or "Hey, I'm going to be in denial about who I really am and be controlled, then I'm going to accept who I am and admit it to myself and those I accidentally deceived, then be strong enough to not be controlled" is going to have some meaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Your point being what? When writing a story, one is writing a story. Things such as game mechanics are left up to other People. It's the job of the writers to write a story. It's the job of those involved with game mechanics (the design and applications of mini-games, vehicles, random battles and the like) to offer a link between the bits of story and to apply the RPG elements of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
What are you talking about? o.O I never said that either of those things were the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
As for your and Skyblade's debate concerning what stopped Meteor, one possible compromise is that the Lifestream offered a boost of power to Holy. Thus, Holy wouldn't have stopped Meteor on its own, and the Lifestream would have utilized a tool to stop Meteor, meaning it may not have been able to do so otherwise. Considering that we really don't know either way and there's not a suggestion one way or the other -- unlike with certain other things -- there's not a lot there to debate, especially when you both could be right at the same time. The points you're arguing are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Squall here is absolutely correct. As a writer, I am well aware of every permutation of everything that goes into a story. I'm very used to being done, and then going back and putting in stuff in the first couple chapters that I didn't even think of until VERY late in the story. Adding incidental run-ins with events early on that turned out to be significant plot devices later on.
And if you're familiar with the Final Fantasy series as a whole, you'd know that applies very closely to this series (FF10 the first exception to the rule- due to the fact that it used voice acting, which limited the mutability of the plot later). I can't tell you what the original story was without these branches and additions and convolutions, but the final product was every bit as complex as what we're pointing out here.
Back on Jenova for a second: the planet was watching it's activities. Who knows how much intelligent thought such a being can use without being "concious" as humans think of it. That'd give Jenova VERY good reason to have her cells spread throughout the human race. So that when she's ready, she'll have "sleepers" in many tiers of human life.
If she can CONTROL through her cells, she could almost certainly PERCIEVE through them. Knowing at all times everything that is happening with all of her puppets. The perfect intelligence gathering system.
But, what we CAN easily assume or just is stated fact:
1. Jenova is alien to the world. It came from the skies.
2. It isn't compatible with the lifestream, since it (or sephi, at least) is capable of traveling it without being absorbed or lost to it. Or it has such an advanced mind that the lifestream isn't capable of affecting it at all.
3. It clearly appeared with VERY hostile intent- causing cataclysmic damage and killing all nearby sentient beings.
4. Though beat into submission and trapped, it was never truly defeated.
5. The planet chose not to use WEAPON on the already beaten Jenova- and almost any of them alone could have crushed Jenova, I can only imagine what they could do as a team. So, the planet felt Jenova carried a threat so great it wasn't worth unlocking the cell to kill it.
6. I'd guess this is because Jenova doesn't need a functional body to exist, so long as Jenova cells roam free, "she" has the power to reconstitute herself and become alive again- the Reunion.
7. Jenova, reconstituted in the end. And Sephiroth, her "avatar", intend to KILL the planet, consume it's energy, and acquire the power of a "god"- then presumably move on.
8. After leaving, you could assume that both of them would go to another (or two seperate) world(s) and repeat step 1. Such a pattern could have been occuring for aeons untold before stopped.
you have to remember that Sephiroth was pretty much human and Jenova never knew his limits so thats why he seemed so weak throughout the game you battle Jenova's body but when you see Sephiroth you get the idea of divinity how can I explain that? who cares aslong as i do it
Sephiroth was the most powerfull human at his time as shown in clouds flashback but we dont know if it was true as zack was there instead of cloud and the memory could have been screwed up, Jenova on the other hand has alot of likitations because there are people with power who can destroy her, Jenova was partly alive before the reunion if she wasnt than Sephiroth wouldnt be in the materia and the game would be screwed so what now?
we know that jenova is alien but how do we know that only the planet has lifestream maybe Jenova's home had something similar to it who knows but Jenova couldnt absorb the lifestream for some reason so when she woke up she used the strongest and most vulnrable creature on the planet which was at the time Sephiroth in his what do we say? mid life crisis? well while he was all confused his mind was open so Jenova came in took it over bye bye Sephiroth and FF7 storyline begins
No, Holy could stop Meteor. Holy's sole use is not to protect the Planet - it's to counter Meteor. Holy destroyed Meteor; the Lifestream merely protected the Planet from the battle. If the Lifestream had not interfered, Holy would have still destroyed Meteor - just very probably would have destroyed the Planet as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Wow.Quote:
1) Zack's someone comfortable with himself. He's a ladies' man. He accepts himself for who he is.
2) Cloud doesn't accept himself for who he is. He tries to hide who he is. His mind even takes on the persona of another person to a great extent so that he can even live with himself. None of that's saying a lot for his mental solidarity.
3) Zack doesn't have a reaction JENOVA's Cells.
4) Cloud has a reaction to JENOVA's Cells.
5) It's said that only the strongest may enter SOLDIER. Cloud calls himself weak. How has he displayed weakness? With his mind.
6) Another member of SOLDIER shows only the faintest signs of being affected by JENOVA, suggesting that -- like Zack -- he's got something that seperates him from Cloud.
7) What seperated Zack from Cloud? Pretty obviously it's their acceptance of theirselves. Aerith calls Zack a ladies' man. After asking Cloud if he's ever been on a date, when he replies "No," she says "No, just a mixed-up kid...."
8) Cloud is forced to come to terms with who he is and accept who he is. He then admits the true nature of himself to those closest to him. He has come to terms with who he is, accepting it.
9) All times before his acceptance of himself when his mind was entered by an outside force, his will was either completely subverted (such as when he handed over the Black Materia) or heavily bent (when he nearly crushed Aerith beneath the Buster Sword).
10) After accepting who he was, when the same being who had been bending his will was present in his mind once more, he easily purged them and their influence from within himself.
1-4: you have no evidence to support that fact that Cloud was unsure of himself before getting the Jenova cell injections because of Jenova. A FAR more likely possibility is that he was unsure of himself because he was picked on and ostracized as a child.
5: this one's based PURELY on assumption. Cloud didn't have what it takes physically to enter SOLDIER - plain and simple.
6. What member of SOLDIER is this?
7. Wow - again, purely conjecture. Some people just don't accept the Jenova cell injections - the cells just don't mix. Sephiroth accepted them perfectly from birth - just because his cells happened to mix completely. Some of the clones had minor reactions, but nothing substantial. It's just game mechanics - the story needed Cloud to have a reaction, and it's justified by the genetics possibilities.
8. ...so? There's nothing after Cloud "accepted" who he was to justify whether or not he could still be controlled by the Jenova cells. I'd agree he'd be less able ot be manipulated, purely based on the psychology. Jenova easily took Sephiroth because he went insane and his mind was fried; it stands to reason that if the person has a more stable mind, they would be less likely to be fooled. This has nothing to do with basing the Jenova cell reactions on psychological conditions.
9-10: Jenova nor Sephiroth ever tried to take over Cloud again, because they didn't have to - they had the Black Materia, Sephiroth viewed Cloud was a weak, failure clone. They didn't need him anymore.
Every point you have can be countered by one that's not based purely on speculation and backed up by in-game facts.
Everything you posted up to that point was 100% true. This is speculation based on your personal interpretation.Quote:
7. Jenova, reconstituted in the end. And Sephiroth, her "avatar", intend to KILL the planet, consume it's energy, and acquire the power of a "god"- then presumably move on.
8. After leaving, you could assume that both of them would go to another (or two seperate) world(s) and repeat step 1. Such a pattern could have been occuring for aeons untold before stopped.
I, personally, believe that Sephiroth thought that the Planet could survive tapping into the Lifestream to such an extent. Remember, he thought he was Cetra. Sephiroth was manipulated into believing that he was doing the right thing. Jenova, on the other hand, knew and planned to destroy the Planet - for reasons unknown.
the Sephiroth you saw was either a clone made from Jenova or Jenova posing as Sephiroth, Sephiroth never knew what Jenova really was or who she really was but the Sephiroth you saw then and the Sephiroth you saw in clouds flashback were totally different
Except Holy sort of failed. It wasn't destroying Meteor:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Holy was white-blue when it arrived. It dispersed the tornadoes that Meteor had spawned off as it collided with Meteor, yes, but after a few seconds, where it was touching Meteor then turned red (the same color as Meteor) parted open, allowing Meteor through, and then an even more violent storm kicked up (refer to the following images):Quote:
It's too late for Holy.
Meteor is approaching the Planet.
Holy is having the opposite effect.
Holy Arrives.
Holy is altered by Meteor, certainly not indicative of Holy neutralizing it when it is becoming like Meteor and not the other way around.
Holy parts, allowing Meteor through.
I'm not seeing the "Holy is winning" aspect of that. We see Holy losing to Meteor. It becoming Meteor's color does not suggest victory on Holy's part. We're told it was too late for Holy. We're told it was having the opposite effect. After it became Meteor's color, a more powerful storm than the ones that had been broken apart kicked up and began tearing Midgar apart. The Lifestream then arrived and as it collided with Meteor and Holy, we -- interestingly enough -- see Holy's original color return at the center of the conflict where Meteor was:
Linkage. How can you determine that these things are unrelated?
Again, what are you talking about? I haven't said a damned thing about JENOVA influencing anyone who didn't have its Cells within them. Yes, Cloud lacked self-confidence because he had been ostracized. The game makes that extremely obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Where are you getting otherwise?
Funny then that they only ever focus on his mental weakness and show that the difference between himself and Zack was their mentality and perception of theirselves. Going back again to Cloud's statement of "But weak people... like me, get lost in the whole thing," what else could he be referring to but his mind when he speaks of getting lost? He got all kinds of lost in his mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
This is where paying attention comes in handy, as I've already said which member of SOLDIER this is three times on the first Page of this Thread: The Junon Accessory Shop owner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
You would argue that a written work would contain the greatest amount of unintentional coincedences in history? Zack accepts himself. He doesn't go bathttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif smurfing loco due to JENOVA Cell injections or Mako infusion. It's also said that he doesn't have a reaction to JENOVA's Cells. Another member of SOLDIER -- who would have undergone the same procedures -- clearly came out of it just fine, as well, and when the call of the Reunion is sent out, he shows only faint signs of being affected by it, rather suggestive of a lack of reaction. Lucrecia, another individual injected with JENOVA's Cells has been seeing Sephiroth in her dreams of late, that being only a faint response to the call of the Reunion. Like Zack, she's accepted herself, despite despising herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Unlike either Lucrecia or Zack, Cloud didn't accept himself, had a reaction to JENOVA's Cells, and was manipulated into going to the Reunion, as well as handing over the Black Materia against his will at the Temple of the Ancients, and was nearly forced to kill Aerith. However, after accepting himself, he easily purges himself of the influence of those/the one who had been previously manipulating him.
You're going to argue that all of those incidents of either not having a reaction to JENOVA's Cells or being able to resist control were just one big coincedence that had acceptance of self as a common thread, despite them occurring within a written work in which such things had to be thought up and placed within the story?
Zack is the only one said to have not had a reaction. Interestingly enough, he's the only one that was a member of SOLDIER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Whereas his self-doubt contributed nothing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Did you not actually see the ending of the game?:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
This scene is followed by the mental battle between Cloud and Sephiroth's form, a battle which Cloud wins extremely easily. In fact, it's a storyline battle that can't even be lost.Quote:
(He raises one fist.)
Cloud
"Let's go home proud."
(He lowers it. The others all rise wearily and begin to trudge back to the
exit of the crater. Cloud and Tifa walk together for a few steps when the
screen flashes white. Cloud stops in his tracks. Tifa turns.)
Tifa
"What happened?"
(He lowers his head.)
Cloud
"......I feel it..."
Tifa
"What......"
(The screen goes white, longer this time, with the sound of rushing wind.
Cloud shakes his head.)
Cloud
"He is still...... here."
(Again. Cloud falls to the ground, clutching his head, and we see Cloud's
double, white and ghostlike, fall with him.)
Cloud
"Still......"
(The screen goes white.)
Tifa
"Cloud!?"
(It fades. Cloud is in tremors, still tightly clutching his head.)
Cloud
"He's... laughing..."
(Cloud's double removes from his body and spins off into the distance. The screen goes white once more.)
Again, you didn't see the ending? Even if one were to argue that it was simply Cloud purging his mind of JENOVA/Sephiroth's influence and not an actual battle, then he has still grown strong mentally after his acceptance of himself. Either way, JENOVA/Sephiroth's control/influence was easily broken at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Where are these in-game facts, as everyone of the points you just presented either required twisting what I said into something it wasn't or ignoring in-game facts and events, while also assuming that the writers didn't know what the hell they were doing and created one of the largest unintentional coincedences in literary history?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
By the way, I find it interesting/annoying that you conveniently ignored this:
By the way, you still have yet to offer an explanation aside from the one I have offered for why we see varying degrees of manipulation displayed in those with JENOVA's Cells (Lucrecia and the Junon Accessory Shop owner show only very faint signs, whereas the black-cloaked folks are completely subverted to JENOVA/Sephiroth's will, and Cloud -- who had the benefit of hanging around Zack, one who's will and personality hadn't been shattered -- is somewhere in the middle until becoming like Lucrecia and the Junon Accessory Shop owner). That we see varying degrees of effects tells us automatically that there's got to be more to it than your argument that the Cells either take or they don't, as that suggests an all-or-nothing status where either complete control is present or no control is present, something which is not shown to be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD
So please respond to these two things if you would. I'm more interested in your response to these previous two paragraphs than I am to the rest in all honesty.
How?:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
I see little concern or care for the Planet's survival there.Quote:
Sephiroth
"By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a
new life forn, a new existence."
"Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now."
"Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul."
Assuming that he still believed that -- and I can't see why he would, since that little dip in the Lifestream in which the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients was absorbed should have revealed that JENOVA wasn't a Cetra; for that matter, the Sephiroth forms in the present never claim to be a Cetra, nor does the Sephiroth form in the Temple of the Ancients contest Aerith's claim that Sephiroth wasn't an Ancient -- then he viewed himself as greater than they and didn't care about their ideals, anyway:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Quote:
Cloud
"The Promised Land?"
"No, but..."
Aerith
"Sephiroth is different. He's not an Ancient."
Cloud
"He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land."
(The screen flashes white. When it fades, we see Sephiroth standing at the
edge of the pit.)
Sephiroth
"...Ah, but I have."
(He floats up, over the pit.)
Sephiroth
"I'm far superior to the Ancients."
"I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge
and wisdom of the Ancients."
"I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the
extinction of the Ancients."
"And soon, I will create the future."
once again Squall you've certainly proved some facts but one thing that questions me, if Cloud reacted to the Mako and Jenova cells how come he didnt go psycho but only schizo as reffered by a few ppl i know his will was against him changing but cloud never had any complete control over himself
I would say that Cloud didn't become a vegetable with a completely subverted will like the black-cloaked folks because he had the benefit of being around Zack, one whose will was not broken and whose personality had not been lost. When Zack breaks Cloud out of the Shin-Ra Mansion, Cloud displays some similarities to the black-cloaked folks in that he doesn't appear very cognizant, and later -- at the Temple of the Ancients -- he babbles about calling Meteor in a somewhat similar manner to the black-cloaked folks' babbles concerning the Black Materia or the Reunion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoden
However, he didn't remain through to the end of the experimentation (being why he didn't have a Number tattoo), and was able to observe Zack, even adopting aspects of Zack's personality. I would say that observing Zack's personality was Cloud's anchor to the mind-not-shattered-leaving-him-as-a-vegetable zone.
using a vehetable is a very good way of putting it I understand it alot betetr now thanks, ok i'm trying to simplify everything into a few sentences
Jenova is an Alien life form from an unknown planet who happened to come at the time of the cetra, Jenova landed on earth leaving a massive crater gave the cetra virus that made em turn into monsters so no one could get in her way of becoming the greatest lifeform ever, however some cetra survived and sealed away jenova just as the planet created the 5 weapons which had to be cast asleep in the northern crater untill Jenova reawoke which was about 2000 years ago approx 30 years before the ff7 story started.
Ghast Discovered Jenova and mistaken her for a cetra and used her for experiments and all sorts, Hojo and Lucrecia had a child who they gave over to Jenova experimentation, the child was born which was sephiroth who became one of the greatest warriors ever, about 24 years later Sephiroth goes rogue at Nibelheim goes tor eactor to take jenova but ends up confronting cloud who with all his strength and fury threw him aside into the mako making him end up at the northern crater legless, jenova still had control and made clones of him or maybe posed as him, she manipulated cloud who at the time had a weak mind into giving sephiroth the black materia, he summons meteor to achieve a godly status, the final confrontation ends at Northern crater, the lifestream and holy stop meteor right before it hits. and there goes FF7 story but what are the true facts and sub stories to it thats we're discussing right?
Jenova used Sephiroth because he was strong and vulnrable at the time of his mid life crisis thingy. after Sephiroth is imprisoned Jenova uses his mind to create meteor and prevent Aeris from returning to the planet so holy could not be summoned, after he was killed by cloud his will was gone so he had no more con trol he was totally dead, but what about Jenova after that? well i dont know
so what do you think people
To further comment on what Squall of SeeD said, (this is just my opinion on the matter) I believe that when Cloud saw Tifa, he remembered a part of himself that almost needed to be a SOLDIER to impress Tifa. When the bit of consciousness that he had left remember this, he suddenly remembered his determination and drive, which gave him a momentary strength of character, which allowed the JENOVA cells to react to what Tifa was saying to him and kind of make Cloud the Shinra ex-Shinra employee into Cloud the ex-SOLDIER. So Tifa really saved Cloud twice during this game, not once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoden
Squall of SeeD, I very much like your interpretation of the story, it does make few things in the story make sense.
Holy's original function should also have purged Jenova from the world. Granted, since Holy *failed* in the (more important) task of annihilating Meteor, it's entirely reasonable to believe Jenova survived. What "she'd" probably have to do is lay low, gather herself back together, wait a couple centuries, and try again. Or, if she still has the kind of emotions and ego that one could presume of a sentient, she'd get *REALLY PISSED* and go off on a psychotic final assault before getting herself back to full power.
The Advent Children and Dirge of Cerebus "sequals" to FF7 should have some more info about what happens with Jenova. As well as everyone else. Unfortunately, we have to wait a little while for any definates on that. I don't speak nor read Japanese... :(
It's a pretty close summary. I'll throw in a few corrections where necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoden
It's possible, but we can't be sure of exactly what JENOVA's intention there was. I would say it certainly targeted the Cetra, as its use of illusions of their dead relatives to get close to them suggests a pre-meditated attack, but whatever its goal had been is, sadly, impossible to determine at this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoden
JENOVA was discovered by Gast around that time, but didn't reawaken for a good many years after. At least 6 years after the discovery of JENOVA, Ifalna states that JENOVA was still unconscious, so we can assume that it must have reawaken some time in the next 24 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoden
Though the last parts about Sephiroth being JENOVA's puppet are conjecture, I personally agree with that interpretation, by the way.
Did the game ever say why Zack was injected with jenova cells? Since he was already a member of SOLDIER wouldn't he have already been injected with JENOVA's cells? Is this why he did not show any effect while cloud did?
No, because Cloud was exposed to the Mako twice, and was affected the second time. Zack would only have gotten a greater dose- if he fought it and won the first, he'd have to fight it and win again. Something he clearly did.Quote:
Originally Posted by BorIzEE27
Raistlin:
Because no, Raistlin, I don't have anything better to do...Quote:
No, Holy could stop Meteor. Holy's sole use is not to protect the Planet - it's to counter Meteor. Holy destroyed Meteor; the Lifestream merely protected the Planet from the battle. If the Lifestream had not interfered, Holy would have still destroyed Meteor - just very probably would have destroyed the Planet as well.
Quote:
Bugenhagen
"Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against
Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor."
"If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear."
(He bounces happily)
Bugenhagen
"Ho Ho Hoooo."
"Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear."
(He leans conspiratorially toward them.)
Bugenhagen
"Perhaps, even ourselves."
Cloud
"Even us!?"
Bugenhagen
"It is up to the planet to decide."
(He floats higher, above them.)
Bugenhagen
"What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet."
"All that is bad will disappear. That is all."
(He bounces)
Bugenhagen
"Ho Ho Hooo."
"I wonder which we humans are?"
