theories

im not sure if theres already a thread for this, but i thought up a theory while playing COM.

i was playign COM and Axel said soemthign that made me think "hmmm" and what i thought was that maybe all the unknown hooded characters, are old keyblade masters, and because sora wears black clothing in KH2, hes starting to loose his keybalde powers and is turning into an unknown, and thats where the BHK comes in to take his place with fresh new keyblade poweres being the white clothing.

anyways, thats just what i think, feel free to post your own theories

:eek: :p well i think, that soras :tongue: a :mad: evil :mad2: turkey :p

I think the crossroads Sora stands at in the beginning of KH,CoM are the paths leading to four different worlds.Sora will travel to all of them and lock the door to kingdom hearts in each. At the end of KH:COM reverse rebirth DiZ told Riku that one path lead to light, the opposite path lead to darkness and the centre path leads to twilight (and thinking about it the path which riku and sora came from was probably also twilight). KHII will take place where the other path to twilight led (which is twilight town) There is a boy in twilight town (the BlondeHairedKid, BHK). This boy wields the keyblade(s) like Sora. He bears a striking resemblance to Sora. I believe (and the story has made several suggestions to suggest) that the BHK and Sora share the same heart. The hidden video at the end of KH was called "another side,another story" and it showed the BHK fighting off heartless with the oathkeeper(given to Sora by Kairi) and the Oblivion. The other side is meant to suggest another side of the same heart. I know its the other side of a heart because Vexen reached into soras heart and took a memory from deep within soras heart. but the memory didnt belong to Sora. The memory was twilight town which is where BHK lives. So I think Kingdom hearts will take place over four games and at the end of each the door to Kingdom Hearts will have to be sealed from each world (or grouping of worlds). Feel free to poinbt out any cracks in this theory.

Destai pretty much summed up my opinion on the relationship between Sora and the BHK. Though I don't have much of a clue what the other side of the heart exactly is, I'm confident that the BHK is the other side of Sora's heart just as Sora is the other side of his.

As far as the Organization goes, I'm not so sure about what I think of them. So far they're the most mysterious part of Kingdom Hearts II. There's a whole bunch of them that haven't been identified yet. #12 is the highest number we're aware of. Vexen was 4, Lexaeus was 5, Zexion was 6, Axel was 8, Marluxia was 11, and Larxene was 12. Assuming DiZ is 1 that leaves 2, 3, 7, 9 and 10 unmasked which only leaves more questions. So there's at least five that we don't know about yet. If 1 turns out to be someone other than DiZ that'd put us at six. Of course, there *could* be more. However, if I'm not mistaken, throughout Chain of Memories both Marluxia and Larxene are regarded as newbies, perhaps recent additions to the Organization. If that is true, it doesn't look like there's going to be a bunch of members with numbers above 12.

Also, we've seen Riku, Mickey and the BHK don the cloaks that are the trademark of the Organization. That might mean that they have joined the Organization, which I believe Riku and Mickey, at least, have. Or for some reason they're as many suggest "under-cover." Seeing as Riku meets with DiZ at the crossroads at the end of Reverse/Rebirth, I get the feeling that DiZ would know why he and Mickey wear the cloaks, so I just get the feeling that the under-cover business is bunk.

There's also the "Enigmatic Man" from Final Mix (and perhaps the Unknown that led Sora to Castle Oblivion?) He could be Unknown #2, 3, 7, 9 or 10 or he could be another. I believe it was Vexen who said he knew "an" Ansem, but not the Ansem that Riku knew. I get the odd feeling that this Enigmatic Man is the body which the Ansem we know cast off. He seems fairly important to me, so I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be DiZ's right-hand man.

As far as the Organization's affiliation with the darkness or light, I'm not quite so sure. Though they suggested that they are neither, they seem to use the darkness more than the light and DiZ made it clear that nobody has been able to manage a balance between light and darkness, the twilight. The only inkling to their motives is the Unknown who manipulates the Beast by holding the magical rose that the Beast is bound to. He uses the Beast against Sora, as it seems, so that would suggest that they want to stop Sora, but I don't think we have any knowledge of why they would do that.

The hidden video at the end of KH final Mix was changed from another side another story to Deep dive. It showed much more of the organization and BHK passing someone who greatly resembled Riku. Throughout the video there was a countdown from the number 13. I think this means theres 13 members of the organization but I have no real evidence.
Its sensible to think that Riku and mickey would join the organization as the organization most commonly believed purpose is to study the heart from an unbiased view, no on the side of darkness or light. Just like Riku and at the end of reverse rebirth micky showed interest in Rikus method of accepting and controlling darkness and light.
Marluxia wanted to control darkness to overthrow the organization and Zexion wanted ot use Rikus darkness to counter act Marluxia so I wouldnt say the organization have any preference to either or.
When Vexen said he knew another side of Ansem I think he was referring to DiZ. I believe that DiZ is the leader of the organization and is also the body Ansem cast off. I think it will help if someone figures out what exactly DiZ stands for.

Also the creatures that act and seem similar to heartless except theyre coloured silver are called "NOBODIES" which possibly coincidental was a term used for the unknowns and naminé. I think theyre the lights (or twilights) version of the heartless(the heartless being dark)I really am trying to fill very large gaps in story. It doesnt all make sense. I know that the nobodies are to BHK what the Heartless are to Sora at least in a sense. The first part of Kingdom hearts right after the opening where Sora is alone on large pedatals and must choose the keyblades characteristics etc. (I think its called dive into the heart). Well in a trailer for KH2 the BHK was seen going through a similar process but at the end instead of a large darkside (heartless) rising from the ground to fight Sora, A large Nobody (the same size as Darkside) rised to fight BHK.
Edit: These are the 13 points which flash in the "deep dive" video. !3 may be the number of reports ansem made.

The lighter coloured Heartless look-alikes, as far as I know, have been named the Dusk, not Nobodies, which refers to the Unknowns as you mentioned, or the "non-existant ones" as the quote from Deep Dive: Another Side, Another Story calls them. "Who is Nobody? They are the non-existant ones." That would leave me to believe that the Unknowns aren't complete. As the Enigmatic Man says in Final Mix they are just mere shells. To me, that seems to be a blaring sign that they have no heart. Perhaps they're just bodies without a heart, which would explain why Ansem's body is part of the Organization.

I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that DiZ is Ansem's body. When Riku finally recognized that DiZ was not Ansem after he embraced the darkness he commented that DiZ smelled very similar to Ansem but he could tell the difference.

As far as 13 members of the Organization would go, that'd make sense with the allusions to the Thirteenth Order.

I also think it's blaringly obvious that the other playable character that Square Enix mentioned is the BHK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ouch!

The lighter coloured Heartless look-alikes, as far as I know, have been named the Dusk, not Nobodies, which refers to the Unknowns as you mentioned, or the "non-existant ones" as the quote from Deep Dive: Another Side, Another Story calls them. "Who is Nobody? They are the non-existant ones." That would leave me to believe that the Unknowns aren't complete. As the Enigmatic Man says in Final Mix they are just mere shells. To me, that seems to be a blaring sign that they have no heart. Perhaps they're just bodies without a heart, which would explain why Ansem's body is part of the Organization.

I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that DiZ is Ansem's body. When Riku finally recognized that DiZ was not Ansem after he embraced the darkness he commented that DiZ smelled very similar to Ansem but he could tell the difference.

As far as 13 members of the Organization would go, that'd make sense with the allusions to the Thirteenth Order.

I also think it's blaringly obvious that the other playable character that Square Enix mentioned is the BHK.

---

You're right, they are called Dusk, my mistake :p . Im noticing that Dusk appear in the place Riku called dawn. DiZ called the road leading to twilight (or twilight town that riku and the king followed between light and dark) the path to Dusk I think and Riku told him it would lead to Dawn.
You have the translations of the unknown from Final Mix? Can I see it? Was Ansems body mentioned in the tranlslations and is his body definitely with the unknowns? In the attatchment in the last post it mentioned something about ENDLESS in caps lock and I think they sound similar to Heartless and Dusk.

All I've got is the four lines the Enigmatic Man says to Sora right before (or was it after?) they fight:
"Ah... It seems you are special too"
"You look like him."
"Which means, you are not complete."
"I am... a mere shell"

That's not including what Sora says. All I can remember is that he asks the Enigmatic Man something like "What are you?" before he says the final line.

The only mention of Ansems body in Kingdom Hearts that I know of was in the Ansem Reports where he wrote that he had cast of his body to delve into darkness. The only reason we have to believe that Ansem's body is actually part of the Organization is that Vexen said that he knew "an" Ansem. That and the scene in the KH2 trailer where there's one Unknown talking to DiZ. I'm not sure which one of them is talking but one of them addresses the other as Ansem. I think that puts it a bit above mere speculation.

I don't know much about anything that ENDLESS might be refering to. I can't seem to find it on the Thirteen Points chart that you have up there either.

I do notice, however, that it recognizes the Nobodies as the "third enemy." I'm not quite sure where to go with that, though it would suggest that the Organization certainly doesn't plan on helping Sora. On the other hand, DiZ didn't seem particularly determined to stop Riku either. In fact, he goaded Riku onwards. That, to me, is the biggest mystery. Where the crap does the Organization stand? Another question comes to mind: Do they stand together?

Marluxia, Larxene and Vexen sought to overthrow DiZ and take control of the Organization. Axel was supposed to stop them, to root out the traiters. But then why would he have the replica Riku attack Zexion? Zexion never betrayed the Organization. It makes me wonder if Axel really is working with DiZ or if he's just become a rogue agent.

i already said that theory in another thread and i still think it's a big possibility.

Peace out and :rock:
EE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ouch!

All I've got is the four lines the Enigmatic Man says to Sora right before (or was it after?) they fight:
"Ah... It seems you are special too"
"You look like him."
"Which means, you are not complete."
"I am... a mere shell"

That's not including what Sora says. All I can remember is that he asks the Enigmatic Man something like "What are you?" before he says the final line.

The only mention of Ansems body in Kingdom Hearts that I know of was in the Ansem Reports where he wrote that he had cast of his body to delve into darkness. The only reason we have to believe that Ansem's body is actually part of the Organization is that Vexen said that he knew "an" Ansem. That and the scene in the KH2 trailer where there's one Unknown talking to DiZ. I'm not sure which one of them is talking but one of them addresses the other as Ansem. I think that puts it a bit above mere speculation.

I don't know much about anything that ENDLESS might be refering to. I can't seem to find it on the Thirteen Points chart that you have up there either.

I do notice, however, that it recognizes the Nobodies as the "third enemy." I'm not quite sure where to go with that, though it would suggest that the Organization certainly doesn't plan on helping Sora. On the other hand, DiZ didn't seem particularly determined to stop Riku either. In fact, he goaded Riku onwards. That, to me, is the biggest mystery. Where the crap does the Organization stand? Another question comes to mind: Do they stand together?

Marluxia, Larxene and Vexen sought to overthrow DiZ and take control of the Organization. Axel was supposed to stop them, to root out the traiters. But then why would he have the replica Riku attack Zexion? Zexion never betrayed the Organization. It makes me wonder if Axel really is working with DiZ or if he's just become a rogue agent.

---

Thanks for the translations, hes talking about BHK isnt he? When he says you look like him.
I checked the lines at the end of reverse rebirth. DiZ calls the twilight road "nightfall" not dusk but I wonder if theres still a connection to Dusk and Riku calling it the road to dawn.
The endless is in caps on the VII point under it is something saying "what took you so long kairi?" and a line drawing across from endless leads to the word "heartless both of which are in the VII point.
If you replay the end trailer in reverse rebirth you cam see clearly that DiZ's skin is the same colour as Ansems as are his glowing orange eyes.
By the end of CoM Zexions plans were to control Riku to counteract Marluxia. Even when Marluxia died maybe greed got the better of him? It doesnt strike me as unlikely. Though he does seem to have a plan but Im guessing that with KH2 screenshots the way he lectured on before fighting BHK. Wether he was explaining the organizations plans or his own....

In the Deep Dive trailer Im pretty sure the Dual wielding unknown or the blonde haired kid gave Riku the Oathkeeper keyblade. Now Im just confussed :confused:

i think duel wielding unknown is the shell of the bhk. The same thing that happened to sora (when he became a heartless) most probably happened to the bhk. For those of you that dont know my theories on the game i may as well update them....sorry ouch, you've probably heard them a thousand times :P

I think that all the unknowns were previous keybladers. Think about it. The infromed people (ansem, mickey, leon ect.) would never have known about the keyblades existence if it hadn't been recorded from another time. it may be centuaries before this games happenings but maybe that explains the unknowns being so desperate that sora has come along. this may be there chance to either die properly or be reunited with there hearts.

I also think that they were taken from there bodies the same way that sora was when he unlocked his heart (they may not unlocked there heart but something like they had there hearts taken. Now your going to say then why arent there unknowns for every heartless victim in the world and i think the answer to that is, because the unknowns are all such great fighters that there shells couldn't give up looking for there bodies and were taken into the organization.

Peace out and :rock:
EE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destai

In the Deep Dive trailer Im pretty sure the Dual wielding unknown or the blonde haired kid gave Riku the Oathkeeper keyblade. Now Im just confussed :confused:

---

There is one major thing.If he gave him Oathkeeper then how the hell did he have two Keyblades once again two seconds after that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack - Blademaster

There is one major thing.If he gave him Oathkeeper then how the hell did he have two Keyblades once again two seconds after that?

---

I dont think Deep dive takes place before KH2. Well..I dont see reason to believe that. BHK only got his keyblades in KH2. You can see him in one of the trailers undergoing the dive into the heart the same way Sora did at the start of KH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack - Blademaster

There is one major thing.If he gave him Oathkeeper then how the hell did he have two Keyblades once again two seconds after that?

---

how can sora pull his keyblade out mid swing as soon as you click the attack button?

Peace out and :rock:
EE

Sora doesnt have two keyblades. At least not in Deep Dive. He doesnt have two keyblades in KH2 until he does a special attack with Goofy or Donald. The person with two keyblades in Deep dive and KH2 is someone else. Not Sora.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eternal essence

how can sora pull his keyblade out mid swing as soon as you click the attack button?

Peace out and :rock:
EE

---

But in KH when Riku took Sora's Keyblade, Sora couldn't pull another keyblade out of the air as it did BHK(if it is him).On the other side, maybe he wields special technique.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eternal essence

how can sora pull his keyblade out mid swing as soon as you click the attack button?

Peace out and :rock:
EE

---

But in KH when Riku took Sora's Keyblade, Sora couldn't pull another keyblade out of the air as it did BHK(if it is him).And I don't think he has pockets of George Stobbart to carry loads of Keyblades.On the other side, maybe he wields special technique.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack - Blademaster

But in KH when Riku took Sora's Keyblade, Sora couldn't pull another keyblade out of the air as it did BHK(if it is him).And I don't think he has pockets of George Stobbart to carry loads of Keyblades.On the other side, maybe he wields special technique.

---

Yes but he could have given him the second keyblade after KH2. By which I mean Deep Dive takes place after KH2.

Oh my god!I wonder what they have for KH3!And to release trailer for KH3 even before they release KH2!It is a bit sadistic, don't ya think? ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack - Blademaster

Oh my god!I wonder what they have for KH3!And to release trailer for KH3 even before they release KH2!It is a bit sadistic, don't ya think? ;)

---

Point taken, during KH2 sounds more reasonable. But I dont think it necessarily happened between I&II.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destai

In the Deep Dive trailer Im pretty sure the Dual wielding unknown or the blonde haired kid gave Riku the Oathkeeper keyblade. Now Im just confussed :confused:

---

I think that bhk and double wielder is the same thing.

Yes I think so too, sorry I wrote that badly. I meant those are both names used for him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack - Blademaster

But in KH when Riku took Sora's Keyblade, Sora couldn't pull another keyblade out of the air as it did BHK(if it is him).And I don't think he has pockets of George Stobbart to carry loads of Keyblades.On the other side, maybe he wields special technique.

---

that was because he took the ability to have a keyblade. not the keyblade itself. The perfect example is when leon slashes the keyblade, it fades out of his hand and into sora's. I think the keyblade it more the keybladers heart that is hardened into a weapon than it is a buyable weapon. So if that is the case then why cant a keyblader just conjure up the weapon at will. Also, sora could pull a keyblade out of thin air, but only when he had it (not riku because it was currentlly within his heart) and he couldn't pull out 2 (even though you can do that in kh2 in overdrive mode) because he either didn't possess enough skill or wasn't aware he had that power.

Peace out and :rock:
EE

I do believe that the dual-wielding Unknown tosses up the Oblivion to Riku, which would make much more sense than the Oathkeeper as the Oblivion was Riku's original keyblade/chain, or rather, as I've been informed, a look-a-like. Either way the Oblivion is so Riku's style. Also, the second keyblade that the dual-wielding Unknown has after he tosses the Oblivion on up to Riku is a Kingdom Key. And we've all seen how Sora and Riku both summon their keyblades, it just pops out of thing air with a cool little effect.

I strongly doubt that the Unknowns are previous keyblade wielders. From how they talk about the keyblade it leads me to believe that they've never actually witnessed its power. If they did, they wouldn't have so sorely underestimated Sora and his abilities.

I still think that the Unknowns are bodies that have been seperated from their hearts. It makes the most sense as you could describe a body without a heart as a hallow shell, and it would also explain why Ansem's body is a member of the Organization. But not all members are hollow shells. Riku and Mickey sure as hell aren't, and I doubt the dual-wielding Unknown is either. I don't think being a member of the Organization means much of anything, though. If there's one thing we've learned about the Organization is that everyone has their own agenda, so those three probably aren't even working with the other Unknowns, but I don't think that necessarily means they're under-cover either.

I'm also a little confused as to where Deep Dive fits into the chronology of Kingdom Hearts. I think it's dead obvious that the dual-wielding Unknown is the blonde haired kid. When we see the blonde haired kid in Kingdom Hearts II he does not don the cloak that the Unknowns wear and what we later see him wearing. This leads me to believe that Deep Dive either takes place during or after Kingdom Hearts II. Something tells me that it's during and towards the end of the game.

Yes you're right. Sorry about the mix up, I just checked and it is the Oblivion Riku catches while BHK keeps the Oathkeeper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaphier

I strongly doubt that the Unknowns are previous keyblade wielders. From how they talk about the keyblade it leads me to believe that they've never actually witnessed its power. If they did, they wouldn't have so sorely underestimated Sora and his abilities.

---

Agreed. In CoM, the Organization members plotting a coup talk about how Sora was their chance to get the Keyblade master under their control, and that they were going to use Sora's power to take over the Organization. That doesn't really make much sense if every member of the Organization was a Keyblade master.

Personally, there is very little that I am sure about KH2. The Organization, the Dusk, the many different Keyblades... I've got to finish Reverse/Rebirth in CoM to see if I can clear any of this up, but I don't think we're really going to get any answers until KH2 comes out (when is that supposed to be, anyway?).

Also, in the "Another Side, Another Story" (I haven't seen Deep Dive), we see the first appearance of the Neoshadow Heartless, which show up again in CoM. Where did they come from? Not only are they a new breed of Heartless, but I believe they lack the Heartless symbol that Ansem used to mark the Heartless he created. But in "Another Side, Another Story", there are certainly a lot of them. The vast majority of the Heartless that you face in KH were the result of Ansem's experimentation, as indicated by the heart with an "X" through it that they wore, which is explained in one of the Ansem reports. So if Ansem didn't create them, who did? And why..?

I myself agree with the theory that the BHK is the other side of Sora's heart, aswell as the theory that Ansem and Diz are the same person, or, at least, Diz is the shell of Ansem. I don't beleive the Organization is really just heartless shells, however. As was said earlier, Riku and Mickey obviously aren't heartless shells, but the wear the same robes as the Organization. Also, from how far I've gotten in KH: CoM (I haven't beaten it yet) They just don't strike me as such.

There is something else that I've been wondering. How does the BHK have the Oathkeeper? It was a gift from Kiari that Sora promised to return. So why would the BHK have it? Thats another reason I think he might be the other side of Sora's heart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TurkSlayer

I myself agree with the theory that the BHK is the other side of Sora's heart, aswell as the theory that Ansem and Diz are the same person, or, at least, Diz is the shell of Ansem. I don't beleive the Organization is really just heartless shells, however. As was said earlier, Riku and Mickey obviously aren't heartless shells, but the wear the same robes as the Organization. Also, from how far I've gotten in KH: CoM (I haven't beaten it yet) They just don't strike me as such.

There is something else that I've been wondering. How does the BHK have the Oathkeeper? It was a gift from Kiari that Sora promised to return. So why would the BHK have it? Thats another reason I think he might be the other side of Sora's heart.

---

For that matter, why does he have the Oblivion? In KHs there was simply the Keyblade master, Sora. Riku's keyblade comes from the hearts of the princesses, and Mickey gets one somehow, but there is no explanation for where the BHK gets his two keyblades. Nor is their an explanation for what the Organization truly is. Axel (it might have been Larxene, but I think it was Axel) comments that discovering the mysteries of the heart is the purpose of the Organization, but when you play through CoM, it really doesn't seem like that... If that is the purpose of the Organization, what would be the point in taking over it? What would Marluxia hope to gain? Why do we see Mickey, Sora, and Riku in the robes of the Organization (personal belief: because they look really fricking cool)? Who or what is DiZ? He apparently knows Mickey, and I think that he is "the Superior" who Marluxia is going to report Vexen too, and who Zexion initially mistakes Riku for. Who is the BHK, and what is the other side of the heart? Larxene comments that if Sora finds out about the other side, their plan is finished. Why? Sora and Riku go through Twilight Town, but we still get no explanation as to the other side of the heart.

As to the Organization members being former Keyblade masters... That really doesn't make sense at all. At least a dozen former Keyblade masters are still alive, and they almost all seem to have turned to the darkness? The Keyblade chooses who wields it, and it chose Sora over Riku because Riku accepted the darkness. Most of the Organization members wouldn't even be considered.

Has anyone here seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Originally, there was only supposed to be one. She died and another arrived to take her place but she was revived and so the floodgates were broken. Suddenly, there was a whole world full of Slayer potentials.

I realize Riku never died, but his heart HAD wavered between light and dark and my sig suggests. Because of this, the Keyblade chose Sora as its next wielder. By the end of CoM, Riku realizes he needn't worry about the darkness in his heart controlling him. Knowing that Light and Darkness are merely two pure sides to the same heart, he is able to reclaim his title has Keymaster.

Sora and BK two sides of one heart? I don't know what to say.
The dual-wielding is easy enough for me to theorize on. It's possible that Keymasters are naturally gifted with the Drive ability. Only Sora wasn't the original target of the Keyblade. Perhaps Riku could've done this on his own had he not let his darkness rule him. I think that the strenght of a Keymaster's heart allows him to dual-wield, which is why he merges his heart with the hearts of fellow warriors. As for BK, I don't know if he Drives or not . . . maybe his heart is stronger like Riku's.

I wish I could see Deep Dive. Where can I see that?
I've only seen Another Side . . . Another Story . . .
I thought that Riku was the one fighting the Neoheartless. When I saw him in Nobody gear on the CoM commercial ad I was certain it must be him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mercen-X

Has anyone here seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Originally, there was only supposed to be one. She died and another arrived to take her place but she was revived and so the floodgates were broken. Suddenly, there was a whole world full of Slayer potentials.

I realize Riku never died, but his heart HAD wavered between light and dark and my sig suggests. Because of this, the Keyblade chose Sora as its next wielder. By the end of CoM, Riku realizes he needn't worry about the darkness in his heart controlling him. Knowing that Light and Darkness are merely two pure sides to the same heart, he is able to reclaim his title has Keymaster.

---

(Actually, in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, there was always a full world of potentials. Only one at a time ever became the Slayer though. At least until the very end of the series...)

Ok. Assuming that this works, how does that explain Mickey's keyblade? And what's more, when Leon and the others were referring to the Keyblade, they referred to it as just that: "the Keyblade". They said that the Keyblade chooses who wields it, but nothing they ever said gave any indication that there were more than one, or that the Keyblade master could wield two.

Also, having just finished Reverse/Rebirth (booyaka!), I can state fairly confidently that Mickey and Riku are not members of the Organization. My reasoning? They just got through smacking around a castle full of those jerks, and yet as they leave to go down the road to dawn, they are both wearing Organization cloaks. The Organization had just lost Vexen, Lexaeus, Zexion, Marluxia, and Larxene. The only member we know is still there is Axel (and his mental stability seems rather questionable, as do his motives), and possibly DiZ (though why he is allowed to be in the Organization without wearing a cloak, but Mickey, Riku, and Sora are automatically assumed to be in the Organization because they are wearing cloaks is beyond me). We know that there are at least twelve (probably 13 according to the current theory [the same number as the number of floors in Castle Oblivion, hmm...]), but even so, the Organization just lost nearly half of its members. Mickey and Riku had just fought two, and they knew that Sora was fighting others. I really don't think they'd go volunteer to sign up, especially since by the end it still doesn't seem that DiZ has explained how he knows the King yet.

Mickey . . . I don't know. He obviously can't be a Keymaster because in KH he was in SEARCH of THE Keymaster. Maybe the term Keymaster doesn't refer to wielding the Keyblade. Maybe it's something else. Mickey may've had the ability to seal doors but maybe Sora's got some other talent as a Keymaster.

When Leon slashed with the Keyblade, it appeared in Sora's hands.
Maybe that's only because his heart wasn't strong enough to wield it.
Maybe any whose hearts are strong enough can wield a Keyblade without being a Keymaster.

My question is why does every world in KH have a keychain that alters the Keyblade? HOW do they alter the Keyblade? What's special about them?

Well, I have a theory on that, based off of the Oathkeeper. The keychain attached unlocks the power of the Keyblade by unlocking the power in the heart of the wielder. The Keyblade's form changes based on the heart of the Keyblade master. Each keychain symbolizes the troubles that he went through to get it. The Oathkeeper and Oblivion (the two that we see the BHK with) would be especially meaningful, because one is the good luck charm that Kairi gave Sora, while the Oblivion was obtained in Hollow Bastion, where Sora had his confrontation with Riku. The two keychains, which are among the two most powerful in the game, are thus related to the two friends that Sora holds most dear. The Ultima Weapon is a keychain created by all the Moogles in the synthesis shop, and they put so much into it that they can't make it again, which is why it is so powerful. The keychains mean something to the Keyblade master, and that meaning unleashes power in the Keyblade master's heart, and it is that power that changes the form of the Keyblade.

This is just my personal theory. Feel free to disagree.

I agree with the suggestion know that Riku has learned to control his darkness and his light he may well reclaim his title as "a" not the keyblade master. I think its entirely possible that riku and mickey are genuine organization members. The ones in Castle Oblivion were all rogue agents and the main interest in the organization is to study the heart which works perfectly for Riku and mickey.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destai

I agree with the suggestion know that Riku has learned to control his darkness and his light he may well reclaim his title as "a" not the keyblade master. I think its entirely possible that riku and mickey are genuine organization members. The ones in Castle Oblivion were all rogue agents and the main interest in the organization is to study the heart which works perfectly for Riku and mickey.

---

First off, if the ones in Castle Oblivion were all rogues, that means that 50% of the Organization are rogues. Also, Zexion and Lexaeus didn't seem to be rogues, they were just countering Marluxia's plan. Axel is definitely a rogue, but his objectives are still unknown. Only about half of the Organization members in the castle were part of the plan to overtake the Organization. Marluxia, Vexen, Larxene, and Axel (though he's not really a part of it). Also, what would be the point in taking over the Organization? If the Organization is about a dozen people who are trying to study the heart, why would they be squabbling amongst themselves as to who is in charge? It just doesn't make much sense to me...

By rogues, I think he meant that Marluxia wasn't really working for DiZ. He merely feigned loyalty. Near the end of the game, it sounds like he has his own agenda.

At the beginning KH before you fight Darkside, the voice tells you that your shadow becomes greater the closer you get to the light.

Maybe because (I believe) Sora's world is the shadow world and BHK's world is the world on the other side of the door to light (thus the world of light) then now because Sora is in that world, his darkness becomes more apparent (yet not more presiding) hence his black clothes.

Wait. According to the trivia thread, Sora's outfit was based off of Mickey's. So Sora is wearing black now because Mickey is wearing black! Ta da! Problem solved. :D

Mickey was originally intended to be the main character of the first KH. Just 'cause they made Sora similar to Mickey in the first doesn't mean that that's their intention for the rest of the series (assuming there'll be more than one sequel). :D :D :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyblade

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destai

I agree with the suggestion know that Riku has learned to control his darkness and his light he may well reclaim his title as "a" not the keyblade master. I think its entirely possible that riku and mickey are genuine organization members. The ones in Castle Oblivion were all rogue agents and the main interest in the organization is to study the heart which works perfectly for Riku and mickey.

---

First off, if the ones in Castle Oblivion were all rogues, that means that 50% of the Organization are rogues. Also, Zexion and Lexaeus didn't seem to be rogues, they were just countering Marluxia's plan. Axel is definitely a rogue, but his objectives are still unknown. Only about half of the Organization members in the castle were part of the plan to overtake the Organization. Marluxia, Vexen, Larxene, and Axel (though he's not really a part of it). Also, what would be the point in taking over the Organization? If the Organization is about a dozen people who are trying to study the heart, why would they be squabbling amongst themselves as to who is in charge? It just doesn't make much sense to me...

---

Yes Zexion and Lexaeus were counteracting Marluxias plan trying to control darkness as opposed to Light. Axel is not definitely a rogue. He could and couldnt be. CoM never made it clear why he killed Zexion and it could easily be because he saw Zexion controlling Riku the same as Marluxia controlling Sora. The game didnt make it clear and I dont think it was meant to be clear. Yes it probably doesnt make sense to you or anyone besides the people creating KH2 right now why anyone would want to overthrow the organization. Its pretty possible that by the end of the game Axel, Larxene, Vexen, Marluxia, Zexion and Laxeus were all rogues.

Well, now we need to specify what we mean by rogue.

Axel killing Zexion because Zexion was manipulating Riku is kind of interesting. For one thing, Axel doesn't kill Zexion, the Riku replica does. Also, Zexion had just finished trying to eliminate Riku when Axel shows up and disposes of him. As Jiminy's journal says, most of the time Axel seems to be just messing around, but for all we know, he's done more thinking than everyone else put together. When Axel releases Namine and screws up Marluxia's plans, he says "all the actors are in place. Namine, Sora, Marluxia. Now, give me a show to remember" (or something like that), which seems to indicate that he is following his own agenda.

Also, has anyone noticed that in CoM, we don't see DiZ with the other Organization members? In the KH2 previews, we do, but while the Organization members discuss things amongst each other (except Axel, who talks to himself half the time), DiZ never consults with the other Organization members. I'm not sure just how significant this is, but it is certainly worth noting.

(SPOILER)"What are you making me choose now?"
"Will you take the road to light? Or the road to darkness?"
"Neither. I'm taking the middle road."
"You mean the twilit road to nightfall?"
"No. The road to dawn."

Damn good answer, Riku! :D

Quote:

---

Axel killing Zexion because Zexion was manipulating Riku is kind of interesting. For one thing, Axel doesn't kill Zexion, the Riku replica does. Also, Zexion had just finished trying to eliminate Riku when Axel shows up and disposes of him. As Jiminy's journal says, most of the time Axel seems to be just messing around, but for all we know, he's done more thinking than everyone else put together. When Axel releases Namine and screws up Marluxia's plans, he says "all the actors are in place. Namine, Sora, Marluxia. Now, give me a show to remember" (or something like that), which seems to indicate that he is following his own agenda.

---

Wether you say Axel kills Zexion or Riku rep kills Zexion. Personally I wouldnt say theres much of a difference. Axel told the Riku rep to kill Zexion and Axel was in control the whole time. Im sure what Jiminys journal said was clearly referring to Axel being a double agent. I dont think it refelects any role Axel will play in KH2 into account even if it can apply to whatever actions he takes in KH2. But what I dont understand is, Why would what he says when he releases Naminé mean he has his own agenda other than working as a double agent? I really cant see any evidence to support that. I think he just considers his role as a double agent a fun but serious game like the way he treats most things. I think that line was just reflecting his personality.

There is also another reason why the 13 in deep dive is an important number. There were 13 worlds in kingdom hearts. They were Destiny Islands, Traverse Town, Wonderland, Deep Jungle, Olympus Coliseum, Agrabah, Monstro, Atlantica, Halloween Town, Neverland, Hollow Bastion, End of the World, and even though it's not technicly not a world, The Hundred Acre Wood.

I've been reading through theories about the BHK and I was thinking, because he originates in Twilight Town, there is a possibility that the BHK is the other side of Sora's heart. If you remember, in Chain of Memories, when you had to fight Vexen for the last time. Before the battle, Sora said that he had never been here, but Vexen said he had, that the other side of his heart knew this town, but Sora didn't get it. What I'm trying to get at is, the BHK might have been made after Sora became a Heartless, the innocence trying to break free of the Darkness, and when it did, it never went back, and Sora's other side of his heart closed off, and that's why Twilight Town felt familiar.

To be quite honest, after seeing the newest trailer, I'm beginning to think that the BHK isn't entirely too familiar with himself. In the room with the other kids he was off in a corner staring down at his hands. That's usually a clichéd action for confusion or the "what have I done?" kind of thing someone might do after they kill someone. Seeing as this is Kingdom Hearts, an E rated game, I think the first is much more likely.

I think it's quite possible that the BHK has only recently come into existance. The event when Sora was turned into a heartless seems as good a point as any to suggest when the BHK may have been created.

It's stretching it quite a bit, but it could be possible. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

Yeah, there's no way to be sure on EXACTALY what happened until KH2 comes out, but I'm pretty sure on one thing. The BHK is the light side of Sora. Now, I'm not saying that Sora is comepletely dark, he's more "twilight" as was Riku in COM. My piont on this is Sora will never be trully "complete", to say, until him and the BHK merge or something. Here is where Namine come up, due to the fact if anybody could "merge" them...she could. Somehow, though, I get the feeling that Sora and the BHK merging is unlikely. However, this feeling may just be because, truly, we no NOTHING about the BHK. We can guess, but we only know what he looks like, and where he originates for sure. Other than that he's a mystery. No proof on how he ties to Sora, nothing.

Wow! Skyblade...i 100% completely agree with your incredible keyblad theory! :D very impressive...

Now Destai...mad props...on this whole ordeal towards BHK being connected to sora...i support that theory (perhaps even along with the ansem, DiZ theory) for a theory i made myself...*clears throat*

In COM it is mentioned by naminee herself (and i believe axel or marluxia..) that she is a shell of kairi (or the other way around..or somthing like that) which leads me to believe that "Destiny Island" may prove to quite a role yet...all of the kids on the island are perhaps connected somone similar to kairi and naminee...such as riku and shell riku...BHK and sora...even tidus! In traverse town we saw a child who looked EXACTLY like him (shuyin? :p ok just messin..) even though that doesnt connect with the twilight theory....even though kairi's from there..but any hoot...i say this because perhaps the name "Destiny Island" may prove quite significant afterall...key word being "Destiny" as in the kids (well mainly riku, sora, and kairi) all pertain to the destiny of there counter parts which will in the end intertwein with there own storys as well....ah..the power of fate...no..destiny! *shakes fist in the air* or my theory could be a complete sham but eh its somthing to thinka bout :cool: :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Monol

Wow! Skyblade...i 100% completely agree with your incredible keyblad theory! :D very impressive...

Now Destai...mad props...on this whole ordeal towards BHK being connected to sora...i support that theory (perhaps even along with the ansem, DiZ theory) for a theory i made myself...*clears throat*

In COM it is mentioned by naminee herself (and i believe axel or marluxia..) that she is a shell of kairi (or the other way around..or somthing like that) which leads me to believe that "Destiny Island" may prove to quite a role yet...all of the kids on the island are perhaps connected somone similar to kairi and naminee...such as riku and shell riku...BHK and sora...even tidus! In traverse town we saw a child who looked EXACTLY like him (shuyin? :p ok just messin..) even though that doesnt connect with the twilight theory....even though kairi's from there..but any hoot...i say this because perhaps the name "Destiny Island" may prove quite significant afterall...key word being "Destiny" as in the kids (well mainly riku, sora, and kairi) all pertain to the destiny of there counter parts which will in the end intertwein with there own storys as well....ah..the power of fate...no..destiny! *shakes fist in the air* or my theory could be a complete sham but eh its somthing to thinka bout :cool: :D

---

Thanks for the compliment on my Keyblade theory. A couple points on your own ideas:

Kairi is from Hallow Bastion, not Twilight Town. Ansem sent her out into the other worlds, as can be learned in the later Ansem Reports (which, sadly, didn't make it to the U.S. release).

In Reverse/Rebirth, Namine claims that she is Kairi's shadow, which is why Sora will never forget Kairi even if Namine replaced Kairi with herself in Sora's memories. Larxene tries to persuade Namine that this is why she should do her best, so that if she succeeds, she can become a somebody, not just the shadow of a somebody.

Personally, I believe that Twilight Town is the counterpart to Traverse Town that exists on the mysterious "other side of the heart" that Vexen and the other Organization members refer to several times. I also think it is highly likely that BHK is the Twilight Town version of Sora, and Namine is the Twilight Town version of Kairi (which makes me wonder if BHK and Namine are going to get together in KH2...). I don't think that Riku Replica is the alternate version of Riku. The Replica was created by Vexen using the data he obtained from his battle with Riku. The alternate versions that exist in the other side of the heart all seem to be their own people, with their own memories and emotions, and their actual connection to their counterparts is sketchy at best. KH didn't mention the other side of the heart at all, and CoM didn't really do a damned thing to explain it, it just left us with a bunch of questions. The Riku Replica didn't grow up and have its own life, only to be captured and manipulated by the Organization, as Namine did, it was created by the Organization to be used as a tool. There's not much else I can say beyond that, though. At least, not until we learn what the other side of the heart actually is...

i realy thought you guys wold of noticed bye now on the subject of when riku takes the keyblade from sora. riku is the "TRUE KEYBLADE MASTER" therfore her has a stronger heart than sora. sora got it back becasuse of his frends that he had made and riku had none apart from kairi. it was the combined strenght of sora and his frends hearts that ment the keyblade whent back to him. the real problem is that from later on in the game we lern that there are 2 types of keyblade one for operning and one for closing hearts and keyholes and as we see miky has one that means there are more than 1 evil keyblade as well.

if i missed anything ill add it later

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sayen

i realy thought you guys wold of noticed bye now on the subject of when riku takes the keyblade from sora. riku is the "TRUE KEYBLADE MASTER" therfore her has a stronger heart than sora. sora got it back becasuse of his frends that he had made and riku had none apart from kairi. it was the combined strenght of sora and his frends hearts that ment the keyblade whent back to him. the real problem is that from later on in the game we lern that there are 2 types of keyblade one for operning and one for closing hearts and keyholes and as we see miky has one that means there are more than 1 evil keyblade as well.

if i missed anything ill add it later

---

The second keyblade Riku uses wasnt a real keyblade. It was created from the hearts of the princesses and once Riku was defeated returned to the keyblades.

sora's heart is stronger now though, BECAUSE of the friends that he's made. His heart has grown through the experience and the reason he got it taken away was because he forgot how strong his heart is.

Peace out and :rock:
EE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destai

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sayen

i realy thought you guys wold of noticed bye now on the subject of when riku takes the keyblade from sora. riku is the "TRUE KEYBLADE MASTER" therfore her has a stronger heart than sora. sora got it back becasuse of his frends that he had made and riku had none apart from kairi. it was the combined strenght of sora and his frends hearts that ment the keyblade whent back to him. the real problem is that from later on in the game we lern that there are 2 types of keyblade one for operning and one for closing hearts and keyholes and as we see miky has one that means there are more than 1 evil keyblade as well.

if i missed anything ill add it later

---

The second keyblade Riku uses wasnt a real keyblade. It was created from the hearts of the princesses and once Riku was defeated returned to the keyblades.

---

how lame can you get it says in the game that the keybalde saved one world and it brought devistaion on anther which means there are good and evil keyblades one for operning keyholes and one for closeing them the one riku used against us was real it dissaperd becasue ansem having no hart took over rikus body and changed it into him so the operning keyblade buggerd off

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sayen

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destai

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sayen

i realy thought you guys wold of noticed bye now on the subject of when riku takes the keyblade from sora. riku is the "TRUE KEYBLADE MASTER" therfore her has a stronger heart than sora. sora got it back becasuse of his frends that he had made and riku had none apart from kairi. it was the combined strenght of sora and his frends hearts that ment the keyblade whent back to him. the real problem is that from later on in the game we lern that there are 2 types of keyblade one for operning and one for closing hearts and keyholes and as we see miky has one that means there are more than 1 evil keyblade as well.

if i missed anything ill add it later

---

The second keyblade Riku uses wasnt a real keyblade. It was created from the hearts of the princesses and once Riku was defeated returned to the keyblades.

---

how lame can you get it says in the game that the keybalde saved one world and it brought devistaion on anther which means there are good and evil keyblades one for operning keyholes and one for closeing them the one riku used against us was real it dissaperd becasue ansem having no hart took over rikus body and changed it into him so the operning keyblade buggerd off

---

Who am I to say there arent, Theres a new game coming out afterall but the keyblade Riku used clearly burst into round glowing light and flew into the princesses of heart. Leon later confirmed that Rikus keyblade was made up from the princesses hearts. I dont understand some of what you're saying. Learn to punctuate. Its a really neat trick.

destai ducks the flurry of jabs and counters with an awesome right hook.

Peace out and :rock:
EE

you say it went into a princess of heart i saw it dissaper like sora's did when he first got it and leon hever said anything about it being make from the hearts of the 7 princesses i thought they just reverild the key hole that lead to all the worlds. im not pretending to be an expert on kingdom hearts serise i havent even got the right consol to play COM on but that keyblade opend doors maybie mikkys is the other one to the one riku weilded besides it dissaperd after saura used it on himself which would indecate that the 2 greatest hearts had been destryed why soras keyblade came back after the gets a heart again i dont know im just assuming that ansem dident have a heart which is why he dident get the one that opens.


ps use your own puntuation to work out what i said its part of the challange

he gets up on the 5 count and get's strait back into the action. left jab, right jab, laying those hooks into the kidneys and wammo! send's him to the mat with the beeeeutiful right uppercut.

Peace out and :rock:
EE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sayen

you say it went into a princess of heart i saw it dissaper like sora's did when he first got it and leon hever said anything about it being make from the hearts of the 7 princesses i thought they just reverild the key hole that lead to all the worlds. im not pretending to be an expert on kingdom hearts serise i havent even got the right consol to play COM on but that keyblade opend doors maybie mikkys is the other one to the one riku weilded besides it dissaperd after saura used it on himself which would indecate that the 2 greatest hearts had been destryed why soras keyblade came back after the gets a heart again i dont know im just assuming that ansem dident have a heart which is why he dident get the one that opens.


ps use your own puntuation to work out what i said its part of the challange

---

(Actually, not using proper punctuation doesn't make deciphiring your text a "challenge" for us, it just makes you look like an idiot, especially when your points go against facts that are presented by the game.)

When Sora stabs himself with Riku's keyblade, Kairi regains her heart and we see the keyblade revert to its true form of the six hearts belonging to all the princesses except Kairi. Since all the princesses have their hearts again, the keyhole can be opened. This is stated very clearly in the game, so I'm not sure how you missed it.

LADIES AND GENTS, WE HAVE A THIRD MAN IN THE RING!!!! he comes in, dodges and weaves, 1 to the head, 1 to the body, 2 more to the head, this is a flurry of punches. left hook, right jab, another right jab and....There it is folks, the final blow, a wonderfully connected left uppercut and that's all she wrote.

Peace out and :rock:
EE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sayen

you say it went into a princess of heart i saw it dissaper like sora's did when he first got it and leon hever said anything about it being make from the hearts of the 7 princesses i thought they just reverild the key hole that lead to all the worlds. im not pretending to be an expert on kingdom hearts serise i havent even got the right consol to play COM on but that keyblade opend doors maybie mikkys is the other one to the one riku weilded besides it dissaperd after saura used it on himself which would indecate that the 2 greatest hearts had been destryed why soras keyblade came back after the gets a heart again i dont know im just assuming that ansem dident have a heart which is why he dident get the one that opens.


ps use your own puntuation to work out what isaid its part of the challange

---

HeresthethingLeonbdidsaytheheartsoftheprincessesmadeRikuskeybladeifyoudidntnoticethatandignorethatim portantpartofyourtheorythenyoushouldntbedebatingthegamekidThekeybladedissapearedleavingorbsoflightth eprincessesheartswhichthenreturnedtotheprincessesYoucantrememberithappeningandIcanrememberithappenin gIliketoconsidermyselfanexpertonKingdomHeartsIvegonethroughthegameindetailandCoMandanyinfoonKH2.

Ok, what have we learned today?

1. Puncuation helps articulate your points which allows civilized discussion to take place. (sayen)

2. Commenting on an argument like it's a prize fight is considered spam and gets you a warning. (eternal essence)

3. Mocking the way others post does not help matters. (Destai)

4. Turning the topic towards all three of the above gets a thread closed.