if you got warped into the world of ff would you want to go home i dont think i would havin a clan would rock :D
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if you got warped into the world of ff would you want to go home i dont think i would havin a clan would rock :D
This is an excellent question, but my answer will not make much sense unless you understand my theory about how the worlds work. If you're not interested, read no further. It is all in spoilers, because it includes some very important plot info, but if you beat the game you should be ok.
(SPOILER)Ok, we see the world change, and we see some of the people change into the characters in Ivalice. Yet Mewt, Cid, Doned, Ritz, and Marche don't change. What is so special about them? I'll give my answer in a second. Also, we know that desire is the thread that holds the world together. As long as the world is wanted, it will be there. But some people changed, while others remained the same. And many of the characters (Ezel, Babus, Montblanc, etc...) seem to have no relation to any real world characters at all. After considering this for a couple dozen hours, I drew up a theory that explains things (of course, if my theory is correct, then Marche turns out to be a mass murderer, but we'll get to that later). Ivalice is based on St. Ivalice, and some of its inhabitants are based on real people from St. Ivalice. But there are many more people in Ivalice (and the surrounding countries) than could possibly exist in a small country town. I think that the world of Ivalice is actually seperate from the world of St. Ivalice. Mewt, Cid, Doned, Ritz, and Marche were the only ones who actually crossed over into the new world when it was created. Some of the beings in Ivalice were based on real people (the three bullies show up as undead, for example), but they are actually seperate entities. And the rest of the world's population was created by the book when the world was. Now then, as to the five anomalies... Mewt, as the creator of the world, would obviously be transferred in. But the other four? Thinking about Llednar Twem (Mewt Randell backwards), Mewt's powerful alter ego, and the way each of the characters react, I decided that each of the four other characters was pulled into the world to represent a part of Mewt's personality, the part of his personality that he sees them as. When they enter Ivalice, they each change, to become the way Mewt sees them. Ritz's hair, Doned's illness, and Cid's motivation. I can't define how Marche changed (or even if he changed. He might have been the way Mewt envisioned him all along) right now, but my point stands. Now then, the roles. Cid was the Judgemaster. Impartial, not following emotions or feelings. The voice of reason, he listens to the facts, and bases his decisions off of them. Doned was the Child. He represented the part of Mewt that just wanted to play and have fun. Ritz was the Protector. She saves Mewt from the bullies and then tries to protect Mewt's world from Marche. And finally, Marche. He is the Paladin. A defender of what is right. He continues to fight on to leave because he believes that leaving is the right thing to do (he's wrong, but I'll get to that in a second). The characters battle out the internal conflict that Mewt is feeling ever since he first creates Ivalice. He thinks that it's right to return, but he doesn't want to. The interactions between the various characters throughout the game is how Mewt's feelings move as the game progresses. As Marche becomes more powerful, Mewt's sense that returning to the real world is right also becomes more powerful. When Marche (Mewt's feelings about what is right) win over the others, the internal conflict is resolved and Mewt leaves. That is fine, and is how it should be. Staying in that world would have been very detremental to Mewt's mental health in the long run. But Mewt should have been the only one to leave. If the world exists as long as its creator wants it, and the other four were representing aspects of that creator, then the world would continue to exist as long as Mewt was there, or as long as Cid, Doned, Ritz, and Marche were there. Those four were much better off in Ivalice than Mewt, since it was not based around their fantasies, even if many of their dreams did come true. Going back to the real world would probably be better for them as well, but at what price? If every person in Ivalice is a seperate entity from the people of St. Ivalice, then by doing the "right thing" and returning home, Marche actually destroyed the entire population of a world, including Montblanc, Babus, Ezel, your clan, etc... Now for the spoiler in a spoiler. After you beat the game, the other four are still in Ivalice, but Mewt is gone (Cid and Ritz can join your clan, and "Clan Doned" is based in the Ambervale, suggesting that Doned is probably still there too). This supports my theory, if you think of it as an alternate ending. In the original ending, once all five people left, Ivalice (and everyone in it) vanished. But in the alternate ending, only Mewt left. The four others were enough to hold the world in place. This is why I think leaving Ivalice was an evil thing for Marche to do. He killed off so many people, his friends... I think that it is better to do the thing that is worse for you (staying in a dream world is not good for you, even if it's not as bad as staying in your own dream world, which is what Mewt was doing) rather than wipe out the entire population of a world to do what is right for yourself. Cid says it very well himself at one point. This is the conversation (from memory, so it won't be perfect [unless I'm even better than I think I am! :D ]):
Cid: Is there no other way for you to get home?
Marche: I... I don't know.
Cid: Then you cannot be allowed to proceed. You cannot be allowed to destroy our world.
True, staying in Ivalice was not a healthy decision for Marche. But compared to the alternative? I think that it is better to do what is worse for yourself than to commit genocide.
Whew! Sorry for the length of that. Comments? Questions? (Praise? :D )
I'd be glad to hear from you!
thats pretty much the way i saw it too its good to find someone who agrees thanks for the response :D
:eek: Someone actually read all that?! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.black mage and watch
No problem. I like to hear myself speak (or watch myself type, as the case may be). :D
thats an intresting thesis. damn, that made me like FFTA again. I thought the story was all childish and lame, but now i remembered how realistic the main character is. hes not some big hero guy whos noble or nothin, hes just a kid that wants to fight for what he believes is right. which is actually wrong. thats good stuff. but still nto as good as FFT :tongue:
ill admit FFT was betterQuote:
Originally Posted by Excelsior
:cry: I haven't been able to get a copy of FFT. Boo hoo. I need to check the local game stores again this weekend. Thanks for reminding me. :cry:
well then lets discus i disagree with skyblade you said it yourself it is a reflection of mewt dreams good thing about march ritz cid mewt and doned why they where there but i believe the rest is mewt fantasy that means montblac shara everyone from your clan they are not real so i dont considering destroying them because they were never real it could als be like this everyone changes into a creature in ivalice so a floateye could be the teacher you dont know.
skyblade this would make a nice discussion although i hate discussing over internet (i cant use my fists :D) (just kidding :D)
(You're lucky then. You'll survive this "discussion". I use swords, not fists... :D )Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
Well, this falls into an unsolvable arguement, because it all depends on how you define "real". I believe that the world is seperate from the real world. After Mewt returns, why doesn't anyone else remember Ivalice? This is another reason why I believe that only Mewt, Doned, Cid, Ritz, and Marche were actually in the dream world. I can imagine them keeping a secret among themselves. Everyone else would be wondering what the hell happened for those few years. Also, Mewt, Doned, Cid, Ritz, and Marche were the only ones who remembered St. Ivalice, remember? So the other people either lost their memories (which there is nothing to suggest that this happened) or never knew of St. Ivalice in the first place! Like I said, I thought about this for a few dozen hours, and this is the only explanation that made sense to me in the end.
Your turn. :D
I'd stay and fight monsters and have a kick ass clan
i never want to go home :weep: :tongue: ! that's why i decided to slowly progress through the storyline :p . i love home, but i love adventure even more :love: . besides, i still see my friends and others who gets absorbed into this world created from Mewt's twisted mind :jap: .
first of remembeer me to not chalenge you again. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
k no one remembers exactly your right about that.
but there isnt much to remember something that just didnt happen to them. i thought of an other explanation there a other world paralel to st ivalice and that is ivalice and it doest get destroys but marche, ritz, etc just go back to there own (il just call it dimension k (cant help it im a stupid dutchman with a lack of english skill)) dimension
i must admin your theory is good its very good
(this is fun)
your turn m8
Don't challenge me again... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tailz
That makes sense, except:
(SPOILER)You see everyone in the world get wiped out when Ritz, Mewt, Cid, Doned, and Marche leave at the end of the normal game, remember? So we know that them leaving destroys the world!
I would certainly stay, wven if it would only be a dream word.
To the theory, I think that the reason only Marche and co went to Ivalice is that they were all present when reading the book.
Cid wasn't...Quote:
Originally Posted by GLR
Ah, but they met Cid outside! He was in the vicinity of the house...but i guess then Marche and Doned's mum would of been taken into Ivalice as well...oh well so much for that...
Your theory...its intriging...Its confusing...but it makes sense if you know what i mean...
I wouldn't go back. No way. Never. That's the problem I had with this game. I disagreed with what you had to do...Sometimes I'd Purposely lose a Guardian Battle so the world will stay the same...but then i thought..."Whats the Point? I'll just get a game over and get another try at it" Then I finished the game (not as in all the missions, im still doing those)(SPOILER)and i was sad cause everyone went back to normal and ritz looked much better with Pink hair and.....yeah thats another thing i didnt really like, the reason Ritz didnt want to go was because her hair was White and she had to dye it everyday...I personally couldnt be bothered doing it everyday but she a girl and they want to...anyway...HEY that supports your theory Skyblade...you said that Mewt's vision of them is kinda taken into Ivalice and that how they were...well Mewt saw Rita as having pink hair, so in Ivalice, she had pink hair!
anyway...
EDIT: Oh you said that..Cursed Skyblade..always one step head of me! :)
I think Judgemaster Cid wasn't the real Cid, as Mewt's mom wasn't his real mom. In the mission with the zombies Ritz says that she doesn't think the zombies were truly Colins band, and I think it's the same with Cid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
argh im going nuts here you counter all of my ******* arguments this is very frustrating (bangs his head into the wall 2 time(thats better)) i dont think im able to talk my way out of this oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
after watching the ending again i noticed something
cid says if the people of ivalice wish it enough it will remain but we can never go back
yes got you now
counter that :P:D
your turn m8
If you really want me to. Cid actually says "maybe", if the people of Ivalice wish it enough, it will remain. And then we see it disappear, so it seems he was wrong...Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
oh verneukt gewoon te goed
damm it uhm let me think you dont actually see the world returning you get a picture of the school so like my (i think my first) argumant you dont know if they really are destroyd maybe they marche and co just see them disapear but actually they disapear themselfs how nout that
and how much i like discussing any ff i played i wish to end this cause im losing :P just kidding
your turn m8
Translate that first line, if you would be so kind. It's...German? I'd like to know what it says...Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
Except that the disappearances happen all over Ivalice, and they don't start until after Marche and company leave. It starts when Doned leaves the pub (what a kid that young was doing in a drinking establishment is beyond me... :D ). After he's gone, the pub owner and Ezel vanish. So it is not just them disappearing to Marche and his friends, because he and his friends weren't there to see any of the disappearances. Which is why he still thinks that he did the right thing, not knowing that he is a cold-blooded mass murderer...
Your turn.
I thought going home was absaloutely ridiculous. The creators just used that plot for the sake of sacrafice and I was really dissapointed because it was never explained to me why Marche would really want to go home.
Marche wants to go home because he believes it is the right thing to do. Staying in a dream world is very unhealthy, psychologically speaking. It would be even worse for Mewt, since it was based on his dreams. So, if the world was not dependent on Mewt, Doned, Cid, Ritz, and Marche for survival, then leaving would indeed have been the right thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Destai
translation it says "oh **** just to good"
and its dutch btw damm your good but heres another thing they all disapear the same way doned marche and so it could be just that they also return to st ivalice but that when they went to ivalice they couldnt remember a thing just like cid you cant say he knew al about st ivalice he knew nothing about it also mewt only started to remember when the totema's where destroyed but why marche rich and doned did remeber is beyond me so have your turn if you will
btw sorry about typing dutch i just lost it after what you typed :D now have your go against that :D
your turn m8
Actually, Cid and Mewt did remember. They were in denial. Mewt was in his perfect dream world, and didn't want anything to be any different, so he convinced himself that the dream world was real. Even when the destruction of the Crystals forced him to relive the memories, he still denied it. Cid was the same way. He really loved Remedi, and liked the dream world as well. I think that when both of them first showed up they were as confused as Marche. But it wouldn't take them long to get into the spirit of things. Probably the only reason why Ritz and Doned didn't immerse themselves into Ivalice entirely was because the changes (Ritz's hair, and Doned's illness) were too sharply contrasting with their memories. Ritz knew that her hair had been white, and she held on to the real world through that memory. Doned also knew that he had been unable to run around and have fun, and that memory was what kept him connected to the real world. Cid and Mewt both knew that Remedi was dead, but she meant so much to them, that when it seemed that they could get her back, they jumped at the opportunity, and did everything they could to wipe her death out of their minds, which is why at first neither of them recognizes the world for what it truly is. They erased their own memories, because they didn't want to believe that Remedi was dead. Doned's illness was actually gone in Ivalice, and Ritz's hair was actually red. Remedi was not the true Remedi from the real world, though. The real Remedi was dead. If Mewt and Cid had held on to the real world, they would have been unable to accept that Queen Remedi was really Mewt's mom. They denied it because they didn't want to face the fact that she was gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
Right back at ya! ;)
The dream world practically was real. They could live happy lives there and a disabled kid could even walk. Marche didnt have any right to take that away from anyone. When the crystals were at there strongest Cid clearly didnt remember as he was confused but admitted to the truth when he saw his past self when the 4th crystal was destroyed. It wasnt Marches choice to make because "he" thinks its unhealthy.
oh damn your good your verry good
but tell me one thing i only remember them not nowing i dont think they where in denial of what truelly happend i quote "i just rememberd something horrible all the kids at school where trowing snowballs at me and one had a rock inside" i think its pretty close and that so outa my head that makes me think they dont remember and that part where cid sees how he was srry cant remember what they said but k
btw skyblade can i have your msn adres its fun chatting with you :D
but explain me that one good and i give up unles you dont want me to
go ahead your turn m8
Well, when Cid remembers the truth (when you destroy Exodus' crystal), he talks of how he went all to pieces, which was why Mewt made him the Judgemaster in Ivalice, or "maybe he did that to himself", remember? He did know the truth, he just didn't want to admit it, even to himself. Deep in his head (his subconcious definitely knew about it), he knew that Remedi was dead, but since she was there in the dream world, he blocked those painful memories from his mind until he was forced to face them by the crystal's destruction.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
Destai, certainly it was not Marche's decision whether the others should go home. That's why he convinces them to go back, he doesn't just go back and drag them with him. And it was necessary for Mewt to leave. Had he remained in that world he would eventually have gone mad. Marche believed that going home was the right thing, and he convinced the others of that. He didn't force them to go home. He couldn't. The world remained until they all wanted to leave. He didn't "take" anything away from them. They gave it up. Even with Mewt, he just made him realize the truth, that Remedi was not his mother, and that he was betraying his real mother by pretending that Queen Remedi was his mother. Marche made Mewt realize that what he truly wanted couldn't come true, even in the dream world. His mother was dead. Doned and Ritz accepted that the dream world was just that: a dream. Doned knew that Ivalice wasn't real. He did want to run and play, but he wanted to do it in the real world as well. Ritz knew that staying in Ivalice indefinitely was a bad idea. But she was enjoying her time there. So she decided that she would go back, she would just keep playing the game as long as she could. Cid recognized the truth as soon as he faced his memories, and worked to help Marche from then on. However, he did not actively work to get home. I think he suspected the truth (at least, the truth as I believe it), that Ivalice and all its inhabitants would be destroyed if they all left. He knew that he shouldn't stay, but he couldn't let Ivalice die just so that the five of them could get home. I believe this is why he makes the comment that "maybe if the people of Ivalice want it enough, this world will endure" at the end. He wants to hope that Ivalice will survive, even if he fears it will not.
Oh, and tailz? I'm afraid I don't have an MSN address. My internet activity is limited to two forums, of which EoFF is one, and a few other sites. My chatting time is non-existant, and my e-mails are almost as rare. Don't give up though, unless you can't think of anything else. This is a fun discussion.
hehehe...i could sit here a watch this all year...
I can understand what was wrong with Mewt and his farther staying there as long as they pretended the le grim was remedi but for Ritz and Doned(Doned particularly) there was no reason for them to go. And Marche destroyed the fifth crystal with forcing them to go home in mind. .Yes it didnt work but that was clearly Marches intention.
omg i think im out of arguments but ill try nonetheless
alright got one took me a while but....
it is mewt's dream world that means all of the creatures in ivalice exept the 5 of them where or real or not if they would be real they would go back if there not real you cant kill them so if they never existed they cant die becuase they never lived (geez this is some crazy stuff)
to bad you cant chat but this is fun enough for now
your turn m8
When Ivalice town became Ivalice world didnt the town people become people from different races with no memory of the former world except for the five?
Ok, if I understand what you are saying correctly, you are saying that if all of Ivalice's inhabitants were real, they would go back to the real world as well, and if they weren't real, it wouldn't really matter, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
Well, I thought about that, but I don't think that it happened that way. Even the people we know had creatures based off of them had no recollection of Ivalice when they got back to the real world (the three bullies obviously didn't remember Ivalice, or they wouldn't have kept picking on Mewt), and also didn't remember the real world while they were in Ivalice. The problem with this is that the five of them did remember everything. Why just them? What is so important about those five, that they are the only ones to retain their memories through the journey? I pointed out why I think they were there, but that assumed that they were the only ones actually travelling to the other world. If everyone in Ivalice was actually a person from the real world, then they should have remembered the real world, especially when the crystal's were destroyed. But they don't. And while Mewt and Cid ignored their past memories, Montblanc clearly remembered being in Ivalice his entire life. If he was a person from St. Ivalice, shouldn't he have either memories of the real world, or no memories at all?
*Boing*
yes definatly boing :P
the five of them remeberd what happend in ivalice becuase they were important to mewt and the rest like montblanc shara and co where just imaginations of mewt so they just dont know about st ivalice
go ahead :D
The reason those five remembered is probably because they were the five covered in Mewts wish. No one else was involved in the spell. The rest remember there past lifes in Ivalice town. When the town is changing to the Ivalice world you can see random towns people becoming Bangaa and Noumou etc. They wouldnt have any memory of Ivalice town because Mewts wish wasnt about them. They were just caught up in it and dint notice anything different.
*Shrug*
Cid wasn't a part of it either, though. Only Mewt, Doned, Ritz, and Marche were there when Mewt read the book.
its not about reading the book those 5 where in mewts memories just like the bullies but they were in his bad nightmare so they became zombies
look i got reinforcments :P
your turn
So why didn't the zombie bullies remember St. Ivalice, if those 5 did?
The Zombie bullies may of remembered St Ivalice, but you never get a chance to talk to them...I'm sure if you sat down with them and had a friendly chat, they would remember (not that i suggest having a friendly chat to a zombie)
who says zombies can speak i never heard them say anything but maybe they werent dam but because mewts got bad memories of those names he uncounsiesly named the zombies that way
oh and if this goes on im siding with sky because now its 3 vs 1 thats not fair
Really? Thanks. :p I hope I don't need the help though. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
Well, vampires can talk, so I think that zombies probably can too. The boss in "Salika Keep" is a vampire who confuses you with Gaol. Also, Lich De Mort, Falgabird of earth and stone, might talk to you when you face him, although I am not sure. If so, then zombies can talk, because he is a zombie.
But I think that if the zombies had remembered St. Ivalice, they would have been as disoriented as Marche when they arrived in Ivalice. They just sit in the Lutia Pass the whole time throwing snowballs at people. Wouldn't they have tried to ask Ritz and Marche what's going on? Sure, Ritz and Doned liked the changes that happened to them when they came to Ivalice, but I don't think that the bullies would like becoming zombies, would they?
Also, the people you see change into a Nu Mou, Bangaa, and Viera when St. Ivalice becomes Ivalice, why don't they remember anything? When Marche arrived, he was confused and tried to figure out what was going on. Those guys just went on as though nothing had happened. They didn't even wonder why the entire world had changed around them, or why they had suddenly become non human creatures. Even if their memories had been wiped, I think that they, like Cid and Mewt, should have remembered something when the crystals were destroyed. Yet there is no rumor about mass hallucinations...
:music: The wonderful thing about Tiggers, is Tiggers are wonderful things. Their tops are made out of rubber, their bottoms are made out of springs. They're bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun. But the most wonderful thing about Tiggers is I'm the only one. Yes, I'm, the only one! :music:
i think theyre not confused because they never knew of st ivalice like i said before they dont exist in st ivalice they are all yust part of mewts dream world marche and co were in it becuase they were his friends and the bullies because mewt has bad memories of them so they were zombiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
your trun and just tell me when it gets to hard angainst 3 ill change sides
I dont think they remembered because they werent beneffiting from Mewts wish, They were being cast aside in it and also they were monsters hence they were mindless in general FF terms. I think thats looking too much into the game, expecting some monster who were given the same names as bullies as a joke from the creators.
Here here! I was wondering when someone would get to this arguement. You may be quite right. I may be looking too much into the game. But I like my games to make sense, and this theory was the one that fit all the facts to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Destai
As to it just being a joke from the creators, I would think that, if it were not for the fact that Ritz mentions them. In the Mortal Snow mission, when Ritz joins your clan, she talks about them, and about how they were throwing snowballs at passing people. She says "This snowball fight is over!" (a quote from Mr. Leslaie, in fact) and later "I'm not saying that those were Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, but..." or something to that effect. My theory is that those three monsters were based off of Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, but were not actually the three bullies from St. Ivalice. Since that fits my theory, I'm going with that over the idea that it is a joke by the creators (although I actually think it's both). If those three monsters were Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, then I think they should have remembered St. Ivalice. After all, they would have been part of Mewt's wish. Otherwise, they wouldn't have kept the same names. Montblanc, Ezel, Babus, Shara... All of them could be people from the real world with no memories, they were brought through just because the world changed, and they needed to go somewhere, but Ritz, Doned, Cid, Mewt, and Marche were all brought through with their memories intact. Lyle, Colin, and Guinness should have been brought that way too. You can't argue that they don't remember because they were changed, because everyone changed, as I already pointed out. Ritz's hair became red, Doned's illness got better... So the bullies became monsters. I don't believe that would change the fact that they would remember St. Ivalice. If those three were not just a joke by the creators, then they could become the crux of the entire arguement, as they are the only people besides the main five who are brought through directly. No one else kept the same name when they went from St. Ivalice to Ivalice. Since the bullies did, that means that they were brought through "directly" as well, so they should have retained their memories. If my theory is correct, they played a big enough role in Mewt's mind that they manifested as monsters in Ivalice, but they are still seperate from the bullies in St. Ivalice. They kept their names because Mewt was afraid of them. Three random bullies would have been nothing to Mewt, especially when he was Prince Mewt, but Lyle, Colin, and Guinness would still invoke fear in his heart, because of all that he had suffered at their hands. By keeping their names, they keep the significance Mewt placed on them. Without the names, they would have been meaningless, just random zombies attacking travellers. Ritz recognized the zombies as Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, and I think she suspected why they were there. She was the one who protected Mewt from them in the real world, and she stood up to them again in Ivalice.
Oh, and one more thing: "Mortal Snow", the mission where you get Ritz, is not the only mission in which you face the three bullies as undead. I do not remember the name of the other mission now, but next time I play through the game I will be sure to report it. Anyway, in the other mission (one that occurs before Mewt leaves Ivalice, and Ritz does not participate in it), you defeat Lyle, Colin, and Guinness in their undead forms. But when Mewt left, they returned. Why? I think that it is probably a result of Mewt's actions. A ghost of Remedi returned when Mewt left as well. Mewt's leaving (without destroying the world, as per my theory) had a similar effect as Mewt's arrival (Lutia Pass isn't usually that snow filled [75% of the missions you fight there have no snow], but more "Snow in Lutia" type missions came up when Mewt left, because his departure was similar to his arrival). Things that were important to him came back to the world, even though they were already destroyed. So the three that you fight in "Mortal Snow" were actually not based off of Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, but rather off of the three monsters with those names that you faced earlier, and that those three were the ones that were actually based off of the bullies from the real world. Similarly, the ghost of Remedi was based off of Queen Remedi, who in turn was based off of Remedi from the real world. This is why Babus was able to recognize that the ghost of Remedi was not the real Queen. Just like Mewt and Cid were eventually able to tell that Queen Remedi was not really Mewt's mom. This is probably also why Ritz was unsure that the three zombies were Lyle, Colin, and Guinness. They were similar, but they were not the same. The real Lyle, Colin, and Guinness never left St. Ivalice. When Mewt went to Ivalice, undead were formed from a combination of Mewt's feelings and the three bullies' personalities. Queen Remedi, on the other hand, was not formed by mixing the real Remedi (Mewt's mom. We never actually get told that Remedi is her name, but I think that it's a safe assumption) with how Mewt remembered her, or how he wished her to be. The real Remedi was dead. Queen Remedi in Ivalice was based purely on Mewt's thoughts about his mother. The Lyle, Colin, and Guinness that you fight in "Mortal Snow" are more dangerous and powerful than the original three undead, because they were formed by mixing the original three undead with Mewt's feelings about Lyle, Colin, and Guinness. So three quarters of those monsters were Mewt's thoughts, and the other quarter was based off of the original people. The ghost of Remedi was half Queen Remedi, and half Mewt's thoughts on Remedi (and Mewt's thoughts about Queen Remedi changed a lot when he left). I think this is how the people in Ivalice who are based on people in St. Ivalice came to be, by combining the person's actual personality with what Mewt thought about them, and changing them to fit the world. That is why none of them remember St. Ivalice, because they were never in St. Ivalice. They came into existance at the same time Ivalice did, and they vanished with it.
...I think I should stop typing before my fingers fall off...
Your turn. :D
well you say they came into existence when ivalice was formed that means ytou agree atleast with my argument that they dont existQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
by the way that mision you have to save uhm i think is was prof augie or another profesor
i think we agree a bit more now about this discusion wich has probably nothing to do with would you leave but k
No, they exist, they just didn't exist until Ivalice was created. Ivalice itself did exist too, but not until Mewt read the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
Anyway, that's my theory, and that's why I think that Marche definitely should not have left. Feel free to disagree, but I think that I'm done working to prove my point. I'm just too lazy to keep going. :D
My life has WAY too much going on right now for me to want to stay in some crazy world where judges pop up every time a minor squabble arises and people cast firaga on you for no discernable reason. I'd much rather make my magic on the wheels of steel.
i think that if it would be posible 1 or 2 persons should have stayed so ivalice would stay for sure i suggest marche and ritz or marche and doned but im a marcheXritz fan so that has my preference but k i think this discusion gets to and end just my opinion but go on pls
Ive got a Theory
Montblanc said that he remembered living here all his life..Well maybe he has. But Ivalice didnt exist until he opened the book. But my idea is that Ivalice had exsisted for much longer then that. Mewt's just a Kid, and sometimes kids (well i know i do anyway) make up their own fantasy world, to try and escape reality. So maybe, one day, years ago, after he had been picked on by the bullies and everything, he decided to go home and make up his "Fantasy World". Maybe he couldn't think of a name for his world so he just called it Ivalice, the name of his town. He remembered about how the bullies were mean to him and, well, basically bullied him, so he made them into the most unpleasant thing he could think of. A zombie. Kinda like pay back to them. When they had the book, someone asked Ritz what her favourite game was. And she said it was Final Fantasy, and they all agreed with her. So, because Mewt's favourite game was Final Fantasy, he decided to incorperate some of their ideas etc. eg. some weapon names (lionheart, Buster Sword), monsters (flans, dragons), magic (the Fire, Fira Firaga combination), and summons (Shiva, Ifrit, Carbuncle)...
So as soon as he thought of this world, it came true. So for a time, it could of maybe even been years, This Ivalice world has exsisted in Mewt's imagination. Then one day, Mewt heard about this magic book that is about monsters and magic. So he decided to get it. Once he got it, he took it to Marche's house because Marche had said his little brother Doned (can someone tell me how to pronounce Doned, Ive always gone Do-ned, or is it like Dond) will be back from the hospital soon and he enjoys Magic and Monsters. On this day, he decided to incorperate Ritz, Marche and Doned into his Ivalice, because they had helped him with the Bully situation eaeler. (Apart from Doned, but I think he was included because Mewt knew about him and how he was Marches brother, and he also knew that he was sick. But he didnt know that he couldnt walk. So thats why Doned's Illness is cured in Ivalice. So Mewt, Ritz, Marche and Doned are in Marches room, and Mewt opens up this magic book. While reading it all of his memories are kinda unleashed into this book, and the book becomes a portal to his world. Suddenly, the 4 them are in Mewt's world. Montblanc, Shara, Ezel etc. Have always been there, because his world had exsisted for a while, so their whole life may only be a few years. It was only just until now that Marche Ritz and Doned were aware of it. Because they were in it.
ty very much yuripa whe were almost doen with the discusion and you bring up a new theory so whe keep going i see (sigh)
interesting theorie really but i stick to my theorie about it being a paralel world to st ivalice im srry i prefer that one
Nah thats ok, I dont really care. Everyone has their own opinions, and evyerone is biased to their own because they created it. (I know I am)
Anyway theres not much evidence to back mine up anyway
there is no real evidence to backup anyones its al pure guessing
*Shoots tailz in the foot*Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
What the hell do you think I did all that typing for?! Nothing?! I supplied lots of evidence. Not enough to prove it 100% to everyone, sure, but I did supply evidence.
Your theory is interesting, yuripa. A couple points, if you don't mind. First, I think that Mewt at least suspected that Doned couldn't walk. He saw him in a wheelchair, and he heard Marche say that the problem was something Doned was born with, so the logical conclusion there is that Doned cannot walk. As far as the world existing in Mewt's head... Well, sure. It is his dream world. While I don't think Mewt has anywhere near enough brains to think out all of Ivalice (down to the individual people, not even subconciously and over many years), he could easily have invented a pretend world. Your arguement just goes back to the one I mentioned previously, which is how do you define "real". I don't think Ivalice was "real" until Mewt read the book. It's inhabitants certainly weren't, because even if he had invented a pretend world, there is no way he could imagine the thought processes of thousands of people. Without independent thought processes, the inhabitants of Ivalice were not "real" until Ivalice became a "real" place.
au au au jumps trhough the room on one foot dam that hurts
yes you backed up your theories very well but there no real proof for any one of our theorie the only one who truly knows (probably) would be the person who made the story line
oh and srry skyblade it you just understood me wrong k but hell that hurts
so much text :eek:
Don't worry. In addition to being an excellent shot I am also good at First Aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
*Patches up tailz' foot, and gives him two Asprin* :D
Actually, sometimes I think that the people who write the stories know less of what is actually in the stories than the fans. I first came across this phenomenon when speaking with Star Trek fans. The original Star Trek's stories were just written as stories. The fans were the ones who took it to the next level and turned it into a massive epic. If you've seen the movie Galaxy Quest, you know what I'm talking about (if not, you need to, because it's hilarious). Fans often look much further into the stories than the writers. This is because the fans are fans. "Fan" is actually short for "fanatic". Fans are usually much more interested than the stories and characters than the writers. The only exceptions to this are when you get writers who really care about their worlds, characters, and stories (like the recent LotR movies. Peter Jackson and company all really cared about producing a top grade film from the top grade books. Because of this [ok, and because of the fact that Tolkien had already given them an extremely well planned out world to begin with] there are much fewer inconsistences than there are in say the Star Wars movies, which were made [in my opinion] just to get the money [maybe not the first one, but all the others, certainly]). If FFTA had been written by a group of people, chances are that they never fully thought out all of the nuances of the worlds that I have mentioned. They might not even have realized some of the implications of the material they added, especially since the writer's couldn't read each other's minds. Any thing that wasn't communicated clearly or wasn't mentioned to the other writers at all would be left as a potential hole that none of the writers even knew was there. It's when obsessed people like me come around that those holes get filled. ;)
thanks sky for fixing him up again
k fans no more about the story (with the exeption of lotr because tolkien was a fanatic himself and he made a beautiful story based on his own dream world :P ) btw the star wars movies arent for the money gl first planned 9 sw movies and he is busy finishing his big project its not for the money
but its true fans mostly do know more about the story but you can only think up to a point because you dont know if your correct and if it fits in the story
but i gotta go now im going out and get drunk legalie now (yipieee 2 march i became sixteen so i can legalie get drunk now :D:D)
(tailz gives skyblade a big hug and leaves his computer after pressing the "submit reply"buton so have fun here
Well, let's go back to that book itself. It's a super-powerful magical tome capable of bending reality to its user's will. It shoved them all into a purely illusory world that created itself from the ground up, being added onto as the few "real" people needed. Essentially, it gets made up as is necessary.
The biggest thing to suggest pure illusionary fantasy world is the "judge" system. Remember that snowball fight where the fight was interupted when everyone targeted Mewt? That gave him the desire for special rules to govern fights. Thus, desire granted.
The world also acted to DEFEND itself. When Monte said he remembered always being in Invalice- it wasn't because he actually had memories of the world from before it was created- it was because the fantasy world needed him to suddenly have this prior knowlege. For one thing, to stop all the "ok, this isn't real" stuff. And for another, to help out Marche- one of the things that the wish included.
EDIT: I recant some of that prior statement now. Just started the game again. You get to see images of the creatures and whatnot in the book itself. So, at least part of it needs to be set in stone, not transmutable. Whatever it was, portions, at least, were created from something other than the imaginations of the few who retained memories.
The "book scene" with the sketch-like pictures of the races is a rather odd hurdle when forming theories of the world.
The thing is, though, is that we have no idea what the scene really is. If the scene was what the kids saw when they read the book, how come none of them found it remarkable? None of them say, "Wow! The book is moving!" or, "hey, it has final fantasy characters in it!"*, they just comment that it's filled with a weird latin.
If you ask me, the sketch-scene was merely an attempt to display the book's inner workings. The book is culling Mewt's (or perhaps all of the kid's) desires into itself. I think it's still very logical to assume that the book has no real ties to Final Fantasy, but merely a magical relic that will turn its owner's deepest fantasy of utopia into reality.
* When Marche meets Montblanc, he comments that he's seen Bangaa in computer games, so it we know that the kids were familiar with the races.
this is an interesting argument, but it's all about how you look at it. You can think of it like the Matrix if you really want to. People there are oblivious and don't know it isn't real, should they be told it is or not. AND, some peaceful programs in the Matrix would be destroyed if the Matrix was destroyed. But either way, is it right to live a lie? Marche wanted to go home to the real world, because it was real...
and as for them staying after you beat it, that's so you can play some more and get everything... wouldn't be much of a game otherwise...
I don't really want to argue about it, but like I said, it's like the whole Matrix thing, it wasn't real, but no-one knew that, does that make it right to fight and try to get out and be free?
THE JACKEL
*Shrug* The difference with the Matrix is that everyone there existed in the real world as well. According to my theory, the people of Ivalice exist only in Ivalice.
As for the book thing, I think that it is easy to explain. It shows a blank page to begin with, except for the expanding magic symbol, then the races appear one by one, and as they do the page fills with writing (and if you look carefully, among the writing added when each race is added, you can see the rune that appears before the picture of the race shows up). So I think that omnitarian is probably correct. The book is distilling the images into itself. It was blank to begin with, so it certainly didn't contain the races before it was opened (and if you believe that it wasn't blank, you have to discount that scene entirely).
While the initial analysis of the story was interesting, it fails to take into account certain realities. First of all, Ivalice is based on St. Ivalice only in the loosest interpretation possible. Ivalice is the product of desire, and the character's desires are all centered around their own experiences. Since the backstory of St. Ivalice is crucial to defining their desires, traces of St. Ivalice are imbued into the framework of the dreamworld. Ivalice is separate from St. Ivalice; it is the physical manifestation of the characters' desires, especially those of Mewt. Desire is a product of experience, so Mewt's experiences, positive and negative, join with the concept of 'Final Fantasy' to form the true template for Ivalice.
I like the idea of Mewt's friends being pulled into Ivalice to signify the different aspects of his personality. However, script analysis would seem to suggest utter independence on the part of the characters. They may reflect Mewt's struggle, but only because they are an influential and independent dynamic.
What really bothers me is the suggestion that leaving Ivalice essentially constitutes genocide. I would propose instead the opposite: staying in Ivalice is genocide, or something similar to it. If all the events are symbolic of Mewt's (and the others) inner turmoil, then the idea of physical manifestation is irrelevant. Mewt could have been dreaming. However, Ivalice is more than a dream; it is a dream taken physical form. The instrument of this substantiation is the Gran Grimoire, an object that for the purpose of the story must be interpreted to have actual power to affect the real world. In that case, I will propose the following: Ivalice and reality cannot exist concurrently. By substantiating the dream, reality becomes the dream. Only as Ivalice unravels does reality begin to become clear again.
That, of course, is what makes the Gran Grimoire so dangerous. It holds the power to mold reality to one's desires, but in molding reality one loses it. The disappearance of Ivalice is irrelevant; it is Mewt's (and maybe the others') dreamings and desires. Hence, leaving Ivalice would be akin to me creating a character in my mind, then dismissing the notion. However, because the Gran Grimoire "threads" reality and fantasy, they cannot both exist. This paradox is best understood in this way: as part of reality, the characters are based in it. A dream doesn't matter; everyone dreams. But by physically projecting themselves into fantasy, reality is either stopped or discarded. Ivalice, nothing more than a dream, becomes reality. Therefore, the perpetuation of Ivalice implies the perpetual negation of our world. While Ivalice exists, we don't.
The Gran Grimoire, then, can ultimately be interpreted as a manifestation of temptation. Everyone has experiences they would prefer to discard. However, in giving into the temptation of the book, one negates oneself. By bringing making dreams real, one loses his or her real self. In giving into that ultimate temptation, one forsakes everything everyone has ever done for them. They discard the world.
Hence, it was necessary for Marche to overcome his doubts and concerns, since he was the only one who realized the deception that is Ivalice. Pain is sometimes necessary for growth, and in dismissing the reality of pain, the characters nearly locked themselves in the eternal stasis of perceived perfection.
Wow, and I'm not even a particularly huge fan of FFTA. I mean, seriously, FFT is FAR superior. But, hey, now you all have something to think about.
EDIT: oh, by the way, if you couldn't tell from what I wrote above, I would definitely go back. Otherwise, I'd essentially be denying myself. :)
Oh boy, this is going to be fun. I'll address this one paragraph at a time. I may have to come back to edit it, because I have school in about ten minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by masamune1600
1) There is nothing to suggest that it takes the desires of the other characters into consideration at all. I pointed out how the fulfillment of the other character's wishes could still be simply a reflection of Mewt's desires. Also, I agree that Ivalice is only loosely based on St. Ivalice. However, I disagree that St. Ivalice was crucial to defining Mewt's desires. His main desires were to stop being picked on and to get his mother back. Those desires are totally independant of St. Ivalice.
2) I also agree that they were independant. They were pulled in to signify aspects of Mewt's personality, but they represented those aspects of his personality because those were the aspects that were most important to them. Doned, who has never been able to play and have fun, jumps at the chance to do so in Ivalice. Ritz continues to stand against bullies, as she did in Ivalice. Cid is the most controversial, because he had the biggest change in the personality from St. Ivalice to Ivalice. However, most of that can be dismissed fairly easily, because Remedi is in Ivalice, and we have no idea how Cid would act if Remedi was back. True, all the characters have other desires. Marche wants to stay too, remember? Don't mistake me, I do believe that Marche, Ritz, Doned, and Cid are still their own people. If they were just representing Mewt's personality, they wouldn't care about the other things they had in Ivalice (ie: Ritz wouldn't care that she had red hair in Ivalice, and Doned wouldn't care that he could run). They would just be representing that aspect of his personality and acting simply based upon it. But because they are their own people, they also have their own desires that come into play as well.
Damn, it's time for me to go. I'll be back around noon to finish up.
(Oh, and maybe FFT was better. I said I haven't played it yet. :cry: )
Unfortunately, I'm going to be adding a few more points here. When you get back, you can choose to address them if you like.
First off, everything I wrote is a personal interpretation and analysis of the deeper meaning behind the game. I did not attempt to explain exactly why or how events unfolded as they did; I merely attempted to demonstrate one way of examining the game on a deeper level.
St. Ivalice is necessarily involved with Mewt's desires, simply because his experiences occurred there. The context of St. Ivalice is thus applied to his desires, so it stands to reason that it would present itself in Ivalice. I noted that these are only trace elements; they do not define his desires, but they cannot be completely removed.
Okay, onto some pure speculation. These ideas don't have much to support them; this is just something to consider.
First off, the Battle Queen (Remedi) had to be the second to final fight, while Li-Grim/Remedi had to be the final boss. Remedi was Mewt's single greatest desire, so, thematically, the game had to conclude with this battle. However, Li-Grim, the embodiment of the desires of Ivalice, must still be overcome. With Mewt having finally accepted reality, the false reality of Ivalice makes one final attempt to perpetuate itself. This battle, then, is finally defeating the greatest temptation: that of the Grimoire. With this victory, reality can return.
Now, for something really speculative: the crystals. If the crystals were not necessary world-threads, if Ivalice remained after all the crystals had been destroyed, what was their purpose? And if Ivalice remained, why did the destruction of crystals trigger Mewt's memories? I would propose that the crystals were the embodiment of the desires of the inhabitants of Ivalice. These inhabitants were derivative of Mewt's mind; therefore, each crystal shattered also shattered part of the illusion. The vast charade of Ivalice lost collective desire as each crystal was destroyed, and so Ivalice did unravel, but not completely. The crystals, in embodying Ivalice's desires, can also be interpreted as memories. Mewt's memories gave rise to the inhabitants; their desires were a function of Mewt's memories. In wanting to forget, to push the memories of reality away, Mewt defined the desire of Ivalice as a desire to exist. This existance would nullify reality, sealing away the unpleasant memories of suffering. So, each crystal's destruction forced memory back to Mewt.
The world of Ivalice seems a function of desire, formed around the concept of Final Fantasy. While I endorse the idea that the 'Final Fantasy' mentioned early on is in fact FFXII (because of the races, Judges, Ivalice, etc.), I also feel the concept of the entirety of the series was important in the formation of our dreamworld. Here's why. If one accepts the crystal theory stated above, then the crystals are inseparable from memory. FFIX, anyone? However, crystals are in many FF's. Beyond that, the crystals were defended by the Totema. Each Totema, according to a number of sources, is derived from a boss in a previous Final Fantasy. Exodus is FFV's Ex-Death, Ultima is FFT's Altima (or, I suppose you could even argue for FFVI's Atma, since Atma is a mistranslation of Ultima. Still, Altima makes more sense), Adrammalech is FFT's Adramelk (a mistranslation), Mateus is FFII's Emperor Palamecia/Paramekia (not sure about the name difference), and Famfrit is FFIII's Dark Cloud (both name and appearance changed, so I'm not certain on this). In any case, with the guardians of the crystals drawn from other FF's, it almost seems as though the series itself seeks to perpetuate its new reality, again only as a function of Mewt's desire.
Of course, the Totema names will all probably be in FFXII (I've seen a few so far), which would complicate the above suggestion. Nonetheless, the above suggestion is possible at the very least.
Okay, you all now have more to mull over. Get to it!
Congratulations! I'm glad someone got the origin of the Totema names.
Anyway, I'm a little busy (organizing a lynch mob to go down to Florida and hang Michael Schiavo and a couple judges), so I'll just toss out one quick counterpoint for now. Your theory leaves a major part of the story unaddressed. Why is Ivalice still there when you beat the game? I've heard people argue that they just did it so that you could keep playing, but that arguement is flawed, because when you complete the corrupt judge missions, the game ends and you can't keep playing. Since they're going to stop your game anyway, why would they let you keep playing after Ivalice is gone? My theory accounts for this. Yours ignores it completely. And, if the two worlds cannot exist simultaeniously, what happens to Mewt after you beat the game? He's not in Ivalice anymore. Are you saying that Marche killed him by forcing him out of Ivalice?
Well, it makes much more sense form a thematic point of view to end the game after the Li-Grim fight (and you can see the credits). However, the continuation of Ivalice is simple: Marche is still there. His continued presence is all the world needs to continue. Until he leaves, our world is at best an alternate reality. For them to exist concurrently would constitute some type of spatial paradox, so I guess you could say reality is 'frozen in place' until Ivalice is allowed to fade. If Mewt has returned, then, under my theory, he and everyone else are locked in a kind of unknowing stasis. In all probability, the events of Ivalice, once it has disappeared, took place instantaneously in our world. Thus, when Marche and the others return, the world takes up where it left off. However, if Ivalice never fades, then reality never continues.
Just a theory.
Your not being serious are you? Sorry but I'm really dodgy about lynchings...I'm in Australia and in Moder History we are learning about the racial relations of the USA and some of those things they do.... You better have been joking around, and even so, you shouldn't joke about such a thing.Quote:
Anyway, I'm a little busy (organizing a lynch mob to go down to Florida and hang Michael Schiavo and a couple judges)
hey im back (probably for the last time)
as you noticed i havent posted in a while that is because my english isnt good enough (sorry im dutch) and i cant always understand what you guys are saying and its getting way to compicated for me now to go on with this :( but ill keep reading cause i like all the theories
ltr sky
(I'm joking in that I'm not actually going down to Florida to kill the guy. I am sorely tempted to, however. Since the courts seem to be unable to uphold the law, a lynching may be the only way to save an innocent woman from murdering scumbags.)Quote:
Originally Posted by yuripa
So Marche sticks a few million people in limbo until he decides to return to Ivalice? If he decides to return to Ivalice.
Returning home is what disgusts me I would so badly love to join legions with ritz and kill marche revive him kill him again goto a jag kill him and take the game over since hes gone
Thanks! I was getting a bit worried
I still wonder was destroying Ivalice right?
If I was Ritz I would allow myself to be so weak and let Marche pass.
If by Ivalice you mean St. Ivalice, then, according to my interpretation, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
just remember when you get in an arguement with me that i own high power sniper rifles, a gernade, and a few throwing needles that you would find in yuor back...heheheQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
anyway, not important, i wanted to praise you in hiding that...um...story ruiner...thingy...what is that called? anyway, i almost skipped over it and thought that you was being a $m@rt@$$! you taught me something for future reference!
if i got warped, i would flip humanity off and head for the life as a viera like Ritz did(wether she meant to or not) i would learn the arts of the assassin, and then learn the arts of the white mage because you'd never think a white mage was deadly, when his high MP count and ability to heal himself would make him more deadly. then i would suround mysilf with an assassin/summoner, a gunner/time mage, a paladin/hunter(w/ dbl sword), a beastmaster/ilusionist, and a Dragoon/item user. everyone that could would learn reflex and those who couldn't, would learn some form of counter.
after that, i would be a Stalker in the shadows of the mercenary business. because i made this up on the spot, i must retire so that i can do that...maybe later...
As much as I would love that world and hate this world.... I think I would go back. I wouldn't be like Marche nor Ritz.
That's the most simple and best way of putting it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
While quoting my sheer awesomeness is wonderful, and is an activity that more people should practice more often, was there any other purpose to that post? You didn't seem to add anything to that or make any comments on it at all, and that could be considered spammy...
Not to mention this thread is like a year old.
Reviving this thread would've been fine because it's not so old, but only with something that contributes to the thread. That's not the case here, though. :(
edit: woah, nevermind. This thread is from friggen' 2005. xD